diamond cutting questions

[ydiamonds]

Just curious and have a couple questions for the diamond cutting experts.

With all the advances in technology, why are diamonds still cut by hand? Wouldn''t a computer be able to determine the best cut for a rough, and then cut it more precisely and perfectly for a given objective?

Secondly, what factors determine how well a diamond is polished? Why can''t all diamonds have excellent polish?

Thanks.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 4/19/2008 10:12:00 PM
Author:ydiamonds
Just curious and have a couple questions for the diamond cutting experts.

With all the advances in technology, why are diamonds still cut by hand? Wouldn''t a computer be able to determine the best cut for a rough, and then cut it more precisely and perfectly for a given objective? there are many computer controlled parts of diamond cutting. But there are many seperate parts of the job - making the outline for eg is often done with comp controlled laser - but the stone has to be mounted by hand on a stick and put into the laser and lined up etc. There are comp controled devices for blocking the 8 main pav and crown facets, but then the brillainteering of the extra facets is often done by hand to get the most out of the rough and maybe take out smalll inclusions or cut around bits of remaining rough.

Secondly, what factors determine how well a diamond is polished? Why can''t all diamonds have excellent polish? one reason many cutters will not make AGS princess and emerald cuts is they often neeed to polish close to the octahedral faces (look it up on google) and attaining top polish there is next to impossible. Some diamonds have graining and knots just like wood, and it is impossible on just 1 facet - and does that matter? usually not - but the grade is lower.
My question to you - just because a lab can see something - does that mean it matters? They can see if a diamond is oily or less transperent - but they do not tell you - is that fair? Is it because they have no idea how to rate it on a ex, VG, Good Fair and poor scale? what about meet point symmetry vs otpical symmetry - which is more important to you the diamond owner? Why do Labs not grade optical sym?

Thanks.

 

[diagem]

Date: 4/20/2008 2:13:27 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 4/19/2008 10:12:00 PM
Author:ydiamonds
Just curious and have a couple questions for the diamond cutting experts.

With all the advances in technology, why are diamonds still cut by hand? Wouldn''t a computer be able to determine the best cut for a rough, and then cut it more precisely and perfectly for a given objective? there are many computer controlled parts of diamond cutting. But there are many seperate parts of the job - making the outline for eg is often done with comp controlled laser - but the stone has to be mounted by hand on a stick and put into the laser and lined up etc. There are comp controled devices for blocking the 8 main pav and crown facets, but then the brillainteering of the extra facets is often done by hand to get the most out of the rough and maybe take out smalll inclusions or cut around bits of remaining rough.

Secondly, what factors determine how well a diamond is polished? Why can''t all diamonds have excellent polish? one reason many cutters will not make AGS princess and emerald cuts is they often neeed to polish close to the octahedral faces (look it up on google) and attaining top polish there is next to impossible. Some diamonds have graining and knots just like wood, and it is impossible on just 1 facet - and does that matter? usually not - but the grade is lower.
My question to you - just because a lab can see something - does that mean it matters? They can see if a diamond is oily or less transperent - but they do not tell you - is that fair? Is it because they have no idea how to rate it on a ex, VG, Good Fair and poor scale? what about meet point symmetry vs otpical symmetry - which is more important to you the diamond owner? Why do Labs not grade optical sym?

Thanks.

To who?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 4/20/2008 2:30:21 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 4/20/2008 2:13:27 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 4/19/2008 10:12:00 PM
Author:ydiamonds
Just curious and have a couple questions for the diamond cutting experts.

With all the advances in technology, why are diamonds still cut by hand? Wouldn''t a computer be able to determine the best cut for a rough, and then cut it more precisely and perfectly for a given objective? there are many computer controlled parts of diamond cutting. But there are many seperate parts of the job - making the outline for eg is often done with comp controlled laser - but the stone has to be mounted by hand on a stick and put into the laser and lined up etc. There are comp controled devices for blocking the 8 main pav and crown facets, but then the brillainteering of the extra facets is often done by hand to get the most out of the rough and maybe take out smalll inclusions or cut around bits of remaining rough.

Secondly, what factors determine how well a diamond is polished? Why can''t all diamonds have excellent polish? one reason many cutters will not make AGS princess and emerald cuts is they often neeed to polish close to the octahedral faces (look it up on google) and attaining top polish there is next to impossible. Some diamonds have graining and knots just like wood, and it is impossible on just 1 facet - and does that matter? usually not - but the grade is lower.
My question to you - just because a lab can see something - does that mean it matters? They can see if a diamond is oily or less transperent - but they do not tell you - is that fair? Is it because they have no idea how to rate it on a ex, VG, Good Fair and poor scale? what about meet point symmetry vs otpical symmetry - which is more important to you the diamond owner? Why do Labs not grade optical sym?

Thanks.

To who?

anyone who wants to know about the ''feature'' of diamonds.
I suspect that most jewellers and almost every consumer has no idea between the difference in Excellent and Good diamond polish if given one of each.

 

[Cleo]

Date: 4/20/2008 3:48:25 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 4/20/2008 2:30:21 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 4/20/2008 2:13:27 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 4/19/2008 10:12:00 PM
Author:ydiamonds
Just curious and have a couple questions for the diamond cutting experts.

With all the advances in technology, why are diamonds still cut by hand? Wouldn''t a computer be able to determine the best cut for a rough, and then cut it more precisely and perfectly for a given objective? there are many computer controlled parts of diamond cutting. But there are many seperate parts of the job - making the outline for eg is often done with comp controlled laser - but the stone has to be mounted by hand on a stick and put into the laser and lined up etc. There are comp controled devices for blocking the 8 main pav and crown facets, but then the brillainteering of the extra facets is often done by hand to get the most out of the rough and maybe take out smalll inclusions or cut around bits of remaining rough.

Secondly, what factors determine how well a diamond is polished? Why can''t all diamonds have excellent polish? one reason many cutters will not make AGS princess and emerald cuts is they often neeed to polish close to the octahedral faces (look it up on google) and attaining top polish there is next to impossible. Some diamonds have graining and knots just like wood, and it is impossible on just 1 facet - and does that matter? usually not - but the grade is lower.
My question to you - just because a lab can see something - does that mean it matters? They can see if a diamond is oily or less transperent - but they do not tell you - is that fair? Is it because they have no idea how to rate it on a ex, VG, Good Fair and poor scale? what about meet point symmetry vs otpical symmetry - which is more important to you the diamond owner? Why do Labs not grade optical sym?

Thanks.

To who?

anyone who wants to know about the ''feature'' of diamonds.
I suspect that most jewellers and almost every consumer has no idea between the difference in Excellent and Good diamond polish if given one of each.

It would be exceptionally useful if it were standard to comment on any negative effects of strong or very strong fluorescence in a diamond in a grading report (eg. oily, miky, over-blue...).

When buying online in particular it would be useful to know if fluorescence in the stone was merely present (without affecting appearance adversly), or if its presence was detracting from the look of the diamond.

May be impractical or not feasible.. but just MHO!

x x x

 

[oldminer]

Diamonds are already graded well beyond what the eye can see. What other, non-life sustaining thing, is graded now with equal or greater detail? I have no problem with disclosing the features of diamonds to consumers, but the burden of disclosue falls generally on sales staff with limits to their own knowedge. Few people, even those who own successful retail stores or who wholesale diamonds in the trade, know enough to really describe them in complete detail. Consumers are being told so much now that they are fearful of making mistakes that no one would ever notice.

It would be great to know "all" the facts, but imparting them to novices would be something that a sales staff could not accomplish properly. We should remain realistic in education and give folks lots of choices to pick based on beauty and honesty of the seller. I know people are painfully suspicious of merchants, but the vast majority don''t have evil intentions. They do need to close sales to stay in business.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 4/20/2008 7:01:24 AM
Author: oldminer
Diamonds are already graded well beyond what the eye can see. What other, non-life sustaining thing, is graded now with equal or greater detail? I have no problem with disclosing the features of diamonds to consumers, but the burden of disclosue falls generally on sales staff with limits to their own knowedge. Few people, even those who own successful retail stores or who wholesale diamonds in the trade, know enough to really describe them in complete detail. Consumers are being told so much now that they are fearful of making mistakes that no one would ever notice.

It would be great to know 'all' the facts, but imparting them to novices would be something that a sales staff could not accomplish properly. We should remain realistic in education and give folks lots of choices to pick based on beauty and honesty of the seller. I know people are painfully suspicious of merchants, but the vast majority don't have evil intentions. They do need to close sales to stay in business.

Because the trade charges a huge difference in price for features people cant see with their eyes consumers are forced too take it into account.
The mistake a consumer might make is paying IF prices for a si stone if they don't go beyond the level the human eye can see.
The consumers have had too go too that level for protection from the market!
The industry itself created the monster under the bed not consumers!

 

[diagem]

Date: 4/20/2008 3:48:25 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 4/20/2008 2:30:21 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 4/20/2008 2:13:27 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 4/19/2008 10:12:00 PM
Author:ydiamonds
Just curious and have a couple questions for the diamond cutting experts.

With all the advances in technology, why are diamonds still cut by hand? Wouldn''t a computer be able to determine the best cut for a rough, and then cut it more precisely and perfectly for a given objective? there are many computer controlled parts of diamond cutting. But there are many seperate parts of the job - making the outline for eg is often done with comp controlled laser - but the stone has to be mounted by hand on a stick and put into the laser and lined up etc. There are comp controled devices for blocking the 8 main pav and crown facets, but then the brillainteering of the extra facets is often done by hand to get the most out of the rough and maybe take out smalll inclusions or cut around bits of remaining rough.

Secondly, what factors determine how well a diamond is polished? Why can''t all diamonds have excellent polish? one reason many cutters will not make AGS princess and emerald cuts is they often neeed to polish close to the octahedral faces (look it up on google) and attaining top polish there is next to impossible. Some diamonds have graining and knots just like wood, and it is impossible on just 1 facet - and does that matter? usually not - but the grade is lower.
My question to you - just because a lab can see something - does that mean it matters? They can see if a diamond is oily or less transperent - but they do not tell you - is that fair? Is it because they have no idea how to rate it on a ex, VG, Good Fair and poor scale? what about meet point symmetry vs otpical symmetry - which is more important to you the diamond owner? Why do Labs not grade optical sym?

Thanks.

To who?

anyone who wants to know about the ''feature'' of diamonds.
I suspect that most jewellers and almost every consumer (and the majority of pro''s have) has no idea between the difference in Excellent and Good diamond polish if given one of each.

Garry..., what is the visual difference between an excellent polish and good polish IF you dont use optic tools to check?

 

[diagem]

Date: 4/20/2008 4:04:19 AM
Author: Cleo

It would be exceptionally useful if it were standard to comment on any negative effects of strong or very strong fluorescence in a diamond in a grading report (eg. oily, miky, over-blue...).

When buying online in particular it would be useful to know if fluorescence in the stone was merely present (without affecting appearance adversly), or if its presence was detracting from the look of the diamond.

May be impractical or not feasible.. but just MHO!

x x x

Cleo..., one would have to be able to describe the measuring effects to do this! Comments would just not do it!

 

[diagem]

Ohhh..., I am soooo with you on this one!!!

Date: 4/20/2008 7:01:24 AM
Author: oldminer
Diamonds are already graded well beyond what the eye can see. What other, non-life sustaining thing, is graded now with equal or greater detail? I have no problem with disclosing the features of diamonds to consumers, but the burden of disclosue falls generally on sales staff with limits to their own knowedge. Few people, even those who own successful retail stores or who wholesale diamonds in the trade, know enough to really describe them in complete detail. Consumers are being told so much now that they are fearful of making mistakes that no one would ever notice.


It would be great to know ''all'' the facts, but imparting them to novices would be something that a sales staff could not accomplish properly. We should remain realistic in education and give folks lots of choices to pick based on beauty and honesty of the seller. I know people are painfully suspicious of merchants, but the vast majority don''t have evil intentions. They do need to close sales to stay in business.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 4/20/2008 7:15:40 AM
Author: DiaGem
Garry..., what is the visual difference between an excellent polish and good polish IF you dont use optic tools to check?

I have seen good graded polish on a crown facet of a EC give it a frosted look on that facet in some lighting that was eye visible.
In other stones where it was a pavilion facet when looking at it lose you could see the frosted effect but face up it was not apparent.
That is why when calling in stones I say to avoid good polish on step cuts because you don''t know what facet it is and the effect it will have.

 

[diagem]

Date: 4/20/2008 7:12:52 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 4/20/2008 7:01:24 AM
Author: oldminer
Diamonds are already graded well beyond what the eye can see. What other, non-life sustaining thing, is graded now with equal or greater detail? I have no problem with disclosing the features of diamonds to consumers, but the burden of disclosue falls generally on sales staff with limits to their own knowedge. Few people, even those who own successful retail stores or who wholesale diamonds in the trade, know enough to really describe them in complete detail. Consumers are being told so much now that they are fearful of making mistakes that no one would ever notice.

It would be great to know ''all'' the facts, but imparting them to novices would be something that a sales staff could not accomplish properly. We should remain realistic in education and give folks lots of choices to pick based on beauty and honesty of the seller. I know people are painfully suspicious of merchants, but the vast majority don''t have evil intentions. They do need to close sales to stay in business.

Because the trade charges a huge difference in price for features people cant see with their eyes consumers are forced too take it into account.

Reminder!!! Ideal..., Ideal...., Ideal...., Ideal...., Ideal....!

The mistake a consumer might make is paying IF prices for a si stone if they don''t go beyond the level the human eye can see.
The consumers have had too go too that level for protection from the market! Or was it in the markets interests to bring the consumer to that level???

The industry itself created the monster under the bed not consumers!

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 4/20/2008 7:21:55 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 4/20/2008 7:15:40 AM
Author: DiaGem
Garry..., what is the visual difference between an excellent polish and good polish IF you dont use optic tools to check?

I have seen good graded polish on a crown facet of a EC give it a frosted look on that facet in some lighting that was eye visible.
In other stones where it was a pavilion facet when looking at it lose you could see the frosted effect but face up it was not apparent.
That is why when calling in stones I say to avoid good polish on step cuts because you don''t know what facet it is and the effect it will have.

A perfect example of my dislike for ''features'' based grading Storm.

I would prefer benefit based grading.
We will get there.
It might take decades

 

[diagem]

Date: 4/20/2008 7:21:55 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 4/20/2008 7:15:40 AM
Author: DiaGem
Garry..., what is the visual difference between an excellent polish and good polish IF you dont use optic tools to check?

I have seen good graded polish on a crown facet of a EC give it a frosted look on that facet in some lighting that was eye visible.
In other stones where it was a pavilion facet when looking at it lose you could see the frosted effect but face up it was not apparent.
That is why when calling in stones I say to avoid good polish on step cuts because you don''t know what facet it is and the effect it will have.

Those should be a miss graded polish call! It sounds like it should have been graded fair or even poor!
Most good polished facets that I have seen were impossible to view with the naked eyes! Sure sometimes these things slip by..., just as I have seen enough reports that graded a strong blue as a faint...

, etc.., etc,...

Well..., it makes my claim stronger when I keep saying that "any" Lab report should be taken with caution!!

 

[diagem]

Date: 4/20/2008 7:26:15 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 4/20/2008 7:21:55 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 4/20/2008 7:15:40 AM
Author: DiaGem
Garry..., what is the visual difference between an excellent polish and good polish IF you dont use optic tools to check?

I have seen good graded polish on a crown facet of a EC give it a frosted look on that facet in some lighting that was eye visible.
In other stones where it was a pavilion facet when looking at it lose you could see the frosted effect but face up it was not apparent.
That is why when calling in stones I say to avoid good polish on step cuts because you don''t know what facet it is and the effect it will have.

A perfect example of my dislike for ''features'' based grading Storm.

I would prefer benefit based grading.
We will get there.
It might take decades

How do you measure benefit...?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

features are based on things labs can ''report'' on consistantly that evolved over time, They rarely make sense.
(eg color grading - it is done thru the side to make it more reproducable, even though the face up colour changes with cut type, size, cut quality etc)

Benefits are harder to define, so labs do not report them.
Benefits (or lack of them) are what people who buy diamonds (resellers and consumers) want to know.

Consumers want to know if they can see an inclusion (benefit) or if the inclusion dulls the diamond (-ve benefit). Labs could tell us that, but it is harder for them to be reproducable.

The entire system is flawed as it does not serve buyers

 

[diagem]

Date: 4/20/2008 8:23:03 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
features are based on things labs can ''report'' on consistantly that evolved over time, They rarely make sense.
(eg color grading - it is done thru the side to make it more reproducable, even though the face up colour changes with cut type, size, cut quality etc)

Benefits are harder to define, so labs do not report them.
Benefits (or lack of them) are what people who buy diamonds (resellers and consumers) want to know.

Consumers want to know if they can see an inclusion (benefit) or if the inclusion dulls the diamond (-ve benefit). Labs could tell us that, but it is harder for them to be reproducable.

The entire system is flawed as it does not serve buyers

Too subjective..., as would be the color grading via faceup appearance only (on colorless Diamonds)..., I would tend to agree with you that the faceup appearance should be part of the grading equation (as it is part of mine)..., but that would open up a whole can of worms....

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 4/20/2008 8:40:36 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 4/20/2008 8:23:03 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
features are based on things labs can ''report'' on consistantly that evolved over time, They rarely make sense.
(eg color grading - it is done thru the side to make it more reproducable, even though the face up colour changes with cut type, size, cut quality etc)

Benefits are harder to define, so labs do not report them.
Benefits (or lack of them) are what people who buy diamonds (resellers and consumers) want to know.

Consumers want to know if they can see an inclusion (benefit) or if the inclusion dulls the diamond (-ve benefit). Labs could tell us that, but it is harder for them to be reproducable.

The entire system is flawed as it does not serve buyers

Too subjective..., as would be the color grading via faceup appearance only (on colorless Diamonds)..., I would tend to agree with you that the faceup appearance should be part of the grading equation (as it is part of mine)..., but that would open up a whole can of worms....

OK, you understand now. Features are not subjective, but often irrelevant.

Benefits may be harder to define, but are always more important to know

 

[diagem]

Date: 4/20/2008 8:48:03 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 4/20/2008 8:40:36 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 4/20/2008 8:23:03 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
features are based on things labs can ''report'' on consistantly that evolved over time, They rarely make sense.
(eg color grading - it is done thru the side to make it more reproducable, even though the face up colour changes with cut type, size, cut quality etc)

Benefits are harder to define, so labs do not report them.
Benefits (or lack of them) are what people who buy diamonds (resellers and consumers) want to know.

Consumers want to know if they can see an inclusion (benefit) or if the inclusion dulls the diamond (-ve benefit). Labs could tell us that, but it is harder for them to be reproducable.

The entire system is flawed as it does not serve buyers

Too subjective..., as would be the color grading via faceup appearance only (on colorless Diamonds)..., I would tend to agree with you that the faceup appearance should be part of the grading equation (as it is part of mine)..., but that would open up a whole can of worms....

OK, you understand now. Features are not subjective, but often irrelevant.

Benefits may be harder to define, but are always more important to know

Ok..., so for example how will you quantify the visual effect on a strong blue, red, yellow fluo on colorless or tainted Diamonds?
How would you quantify a cloud or clouds effect based on something else than a clarity grade?...,
How about color zoning? Part of the material or graining?

Complicated?!?!?


Or

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 4/20/2008 7:15:40 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 4/20/2008 3:48:25 AM

Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 4/20/2008 2:30:21 AM

Author: DiaGem

Date: 4/20/2008 2:13:27 AM

Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 4/19/2008 10:12:00 PM

Author:ydiamonds

Just curious and have a couple questions for the diamond cutting experts.


With all the advances in technology, why are diamonds still cut by hand? Wouldn''t a computer be able to determine the best cut for a rough, and then cut it more precisely and perfectly for a given objective? there are many computer controlled parts of diamond cutting. But there are many seperate parts of the job - making the outline for eg is often done with comp controlled laser - but the stone has to be mounted by hand on a stick and put into the laser and lined up etc. There are comp controled devices for blocking the 8 main pav and crown facets, but then the brillainteering of the extra facets is often done by hand to get the most out of the rough and maybe take out smalll inclusions or cut around bits of remaining rough.


Secondly, what factors determine how well a diamond is polished? Why can''t all diamonds have excellent polish? one reason many cutters will not make AGS princess and emerald cuts is they often neeed to polish close to the octahedral faces (look it up on google) and attaining top polish there is next to impossible. Some diamonds have graining and knots just like wood, and it is impossible on just 1 facet - and does that matter? usually not - but the grade is lower.

My question to you - just because a lab can see something - does that mean it matters? They can see if a diamond is oily or less transperent - but they do not tell you - is that fair? Is it because they have no idea how to rate it on a ex, VG, Good Fair and poor scale? what about meet point symmetry vs otpical symmetry - which is more important to you the diamond owner? Why do Labs not grade optical sym?


Thanks.

To who?

anyone who wants to know about the ''feature'' of diamonds.

I suspect that most jewellers and almost every consumer (and the majority of pro''s have) has no idea between the difference in Excellent and Good diamond polish if given one of each.

Garry..., what is the visual difference between an excellent polish and good polish IF you dont use optic tools to check?

With perhaps very rare exceptions, none.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 4/20/2008 7:24:13 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 4/20/2008 7:12:52 AM

Author: strmrdr

Date: 4/20/2008 7:01:24 AM

Author: oldminer

Diamonds are already graded well beyond what the eye can see. What other, non-life sustaining thing, is graded now with equal or greater detail? I have no problem with disclosing the features of diamonds to consumers, but the burden of disclosue falls generally on sales staff with limits to their own knowedge. Few people, even those who own successful retail stores or who wholesale diamonds in the trade, know enough to really describe them in complete detail. Consumers are being told so much now that they are fearful of making mistakes that no one would ever notice.


It would be great to know ''all'' the facts, but imparting them to novices would be something that a sales staff could not accomplish properly. We should remain realistic in education and give folks lots of choices to pick based on beauty and honesty of the seller. I know people are painfully suspicious of merchants, but the vast majority don''t have evil intentions. They do need to close sales to stay in business.

Because the trade charges a huge difference in price for features people cant see with their eyes consumers are forced too take it into account.




Reminder!!! Ideal..., Ideal...., Ideal...., Ideal...., Ideal....!

The mistake a consumer might make is paying IF prices for a si stone if they don''t go beyond the level the human eye can see.

The consumers have had too go too that level for protection from the market! Or was it in the markets interests to bring the consumer to that level???

The industry itself created the monster under the bed not consumers!

Ahh, at last, something I can disagree with you about, I was beginning to think I had gone to another dimension...

It is easy to see the difference between the average mall quality cut and an AGS 0 light performance cut diamond, almost always regardless of the polish or symmetry grade. Storm is correct that polish may be more easily seen in a step cut stone, I was thinking of rounds in my previous answer, but light performance is often easily seen.

Remember from our discussion the other day, gosh it seems a lifetime ago, that what many of us are trying to do with our use of the AGS diamond grading system is to give consumers a lifeline to make it easy to judge what the gem is going to look like without actually seeing it. And yes, I will acknowledge that the GIA system, as flawed as I think it is, is better than a grading report with no cut grading for helping our potential clientele to know what a diamond will look like BEFORE they spend the postage money to bring in a diamond to look at.

Considering the huge premium that one pays to step up a color or clarity grade, especially between grades like SI1 going up to VS2, which can not be seen with the unaided eye it makes sense to me to pay the small premium of only a few % to go from a fair cut to an ideal cut which can be easily observed with the eye.

Wink

 

[elmo]

Please educate me. You guys see lots of stones. The few I see, the ones with good polish, you can turn against the light with some reflected glare and with a 10x loupe see very fine lines on the surface on a few facets instead of a perfect mirror smooth finish. It's normally not the entire stone but a couple of facets. Unlike lots of clarity features do you really need a scope for this? Or just the patience to look at every single facet this way?

Am I confusing good polish with something else? Seems harder to me to be able to draw a line between the different grades, fair - good - very good if excellent is a mirror-smooth finish on all facets.

p.s. I really would like to understand what can be done these days with several million dollars of the very latest computer controlled laser cutting equipment.

 

[diagem]

Date: 4/20/2008 10:03:46 AM
Author: Wink

Date: 4/20/2008 7:24:13 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 4/20/2008 7:12:52 AM

Author: strmrdr

Date: 4/20/2008 7:01:24 AM

Author: oldminer

Diamonds are already graded well beyond what the eye can see. What other, non-life sustaining thing, is graded now with equal or greater detail? I have no problem with disclosing the features of diamonds to consumers, but the burden of disclosue falls generally on sales staff with limits to their own knowedge. Few people, even those who own successful retail stores or who wholesale diamonds in the trade, know enough to really describe them in complete detail. Consumers are being told so much now that they are fearful of making mistakes that no one would ever notice.


It would be great to know ''all'' the facts, but imparting them to novices would be something that a sales staff could not accomplish properly. We should remain realistic in education and give folks lots of choices to pick based on beauty and honesty of the seller. I know people are painfully suspicious of merchants, but the vast majority don''t have evil intentions. They do need to close sales to stay in business.

Because the trade charges a huge difference in price for features people cant see with their eyes consumers are forced too take it into account.




Reminder!!! Ideal..., Ideal...., Ideal...., Ideal...., Ideal....!

The mistake a consumer might make is paying IF prices for a si stone if they don''t go beyond the level the human eye can see.

The consumers have had too go too that level for protection from the market! Or was it in the markets interests to bring the consumer to that level???

The industry itself created the monster under the bed not consumers!

Ahh, at last, something I can disagree with you about, I was beginning to think I had gone to another dimension...

It is easy to see the difference between the average mall quality cut and an AGS 0 light performance cut diamond, almost always regardless of the polish or symmetry grade. Storm is correct that polish may be more easily seen in a step cut stone, I was thinking of rounds in my previous answer, but light performance is often easily seen.

Remember from our discussion the other day, gosh it seems a lifetime ago, that what many of us are trying to do with our use of the AGS diamond grading system is to give consumers a lifeline to make it easy to judge what the gem is going to look like without actually seeing it. And yes, I will acknowledge that the GIA system, as flawed as I think it is, is better than a grading report with no cut grading for helping our potential clientele to know what a diamond will look like BEFORE they spend the postage money to bring in a diamond to look at.

Considering the huge premium that one pays to step up a color or clarity grade, especially between grades like SI1 going up to VS2, which can not be seen with the unaided eye it makes sense to me to pay the small premium of only a few % to go from a fair cut to an ideal cut which can be easily observed with the eye.

Wink

Relax..., its not your kind of ideals...

, but its more aimed towards the micro nuances which take place between our discussions here on a consumer forum..., actually the discussions between professionals!!!

We usually argue about minuscule differences that the average laymen have on chance to see/notice or compare as we (the ones that handle Diamonds day in and day out) do! Thats where I am 100% in agreement with Dave!

Some of our arguments or discussions are extremely confusing for consumers reading these lines!

But to let you understand yesterday was an exceptional day for the DiaGem-Wink communication..., yes I would tend to even agree with you that it is noticeable to see the difference between a fairly cut and an Ideal AGS 0..., but I dont agree the difference is that noticeable between a GIA VG-VG and an Ideal 0!

 

[diagem]

Date: 4/20/2008 10:17:25 AM
Author: elmo
Please educate me. You guys see lots of stones. The few I see, the ones with good polish, you can turn against the light with some reflected glare and with a 10x loupe see very fine lines on the surface on a few facets instead of a perfect mirror smooth finish. It''s normally not the entire stone but a couple of facets. Unlike lots of clarity features do you really need a scope for this? Or just the patience to look at every single facet this way?

Am I confusing good polish with something else? Seems harder to me to be able to draw a line between the different grades, fair - good - very good if excellent is a mirror-smooth finish on all facets.

p.s. I really would like to understand what can be done these days with several million dollars of the very latest computer controlled laser cutting equipment.

Laser and polish have nothing to do with each other..., every laser function on a diamond needs to be polished!

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Date: 4/20/2008 10:57:45 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 4/20/2008 10:17:25 AM
Author: elmo
Please educate me. You guys see lots of stones. The few I see, the ones with good polish, you can turn against the light with some reflected glare and with a 10x loupe see very fine lines on the surface on a few facets instead of a perfect mirror smooth finish. It''s normally not the entire stone but a couple of facets. Unlike lots of clarity features do you really need a scope for this? Or just the patience to look at every single facet this way?

Am I confusing good polish with something else? Seems harder to me to be able to draw a line between the different grades, fair - good - very good if excellent is a mirror-smooth finish on all facets.

p.s. I really would like to understand what can be done these days with several million dollars of the very latest computer controlled laser cutting equipment.

Laser and polish have nothing to do with each other..., every laser function on a diamond needs to be polished!

Also, the diamond industry is basically too small, and especially the added value of cutting, to warrant serious investment by tools-manufacturers to create the extremely best tools.

Just think about one specific problem: how to best hold the stone, while it is being cut?

Live long,

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 4/20/2008 11:52:04 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp

Also, the diamond industry is basically too small, and especially the added value of cutting, to warrant serious investment by tools-manufacturers to create the extremely best tools.

Just think about one specific problem: how to best hold the stone, while it is being cut?

Live long,

That is how India cutters became a powerhouse by investing in R&D while nearly everyone else was sitting still.
The fear of trying new things is a huge problem for the industry.
With the margins the cutters get its not really surprising either.
But there is a lot of low color/clarity rough out there too practice on that isn''t that expensive.
Since in the old days India got a lot of these stones it may be why they were not scared too try new things as companies that got the best rough.
Not having too deal with 75 years of tradition and likely a younger workforce helped also.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Date: 4/20/2008 2:04:00 PM
Author: strmrdr
That is how India cutters became a powerhouse by investing in R&D while nearly everyone else was sitting still.
The fear of trying new things is a huge problem for the industry.
With the margins the cutters get its not really surprising either.
But there is a lot of low color/clarity rough out there too practice on that isn''t that expensive.
Since in the old days India got a lot of these stones it may be why they were not scared too try new things as companies that got the best rough.
Not having too deal with 75 years of tradition and likely a younger workforce helped also.

Sorry, Storm, but you had a bad history-professor on this subject.

 

[diagem]

Date: 4/20/2008 3:20:41 PM
Author: Paul-Antwerp

Date: 4/20/2008 2:04:00 PM
Author: strmrdr
That is how India cutters became a powerhouse by investing in R&D while nearly everyone else was sitting still.
The fear of trying new things is a huge problem for the industry.
With the margins the cutters get its not really surprising either.
But there is a lot of low color/clarity rough out there too practice on that isn''t that expensive.
Since in the old days India got a lot of these stones it may be why they were not scared too try new things as companies that got the best rough.
Not having too deal with 75 years of tradition and likely a younger workforce helped also.

Sorry, Storm, but you had a bad history-professor on this subject.

I need to agree with Paul..., and the history isnt that long....
I wouldnt call it "investing" as you chose this word...

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 4/20/2008 3:20:41 PM
Author: Paul-Antwerp

Date: 4/20/2008 2:04:00 PM
Author: strmrdr
That is how India cutters became a powerhouse by investing in R&D while nearly everyone else was sitting still.
The fear of trying new things is a huge problem for the industry.
With the margins the cutters get its not really surprising either.
But there is a lot of low color/clarity rough out there too practice on that isn''t that expensive.
Since in the old days India got a lot of these stones it may be why they were not scared too try new things as companies that got the best rough.
Not having too deal with 75 years of tradition and likely a younger workforce helped also.

Sorry, Storm, but you had a bad history-professor on this subject.

could be could be...
but outside of your own operation where are the vast majority of high tech cutting centers that use the latest and greatest?

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 4/20/2008 3:25:45 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 4/20/2008 3:20:41 PM
Author: Paul-Antwerp

Date: 4/20/2008 2:04:00 PM
Author: strmrdr
That is how India cutters became a powerhouse by investing in R&D while nearly everyone else was sitting still.
The fear of trying new things is a huge problem for the industry.
With the margins the cutters get its not really surprising either.
But there is a lot of low color/clarity rough out there too practice on that isn''t that expensive.
Since in the old days India got a lot of these stones it may be why they were not scared too try new things as companies that got the best rough.
Not having too deal with 75 years of tradition and likely a younger workforce helped also.

Sorry, Storm, but you had a bad history-professor on this subject.

I need to agree with Paul..., and the history isnt that long....
I wouldnt call it ''investing'' as you chose this word...

buying then,,, allowing others too do R&D.. indirect funding.
Lets ask Garry as he has visited the cutting factories.