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Tassaido

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 22, 2009
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Hi there

I have been reading a lot about the cost savings between going online versus buying from bricks and mortar. I live in the UK and have been looking at Whiteflash. I then went to see a recommendation at Hatton Garden (everyone seems to have one apparently), he went through all his spiel and then gave me a selection of quotes on diamonds. We have settled on a size we like (approx 0.9) and cut (round) so now it is looking at colour, clarity etc. to see which we like.

The diamond I liked on Whiteflash was this one http://www.whiteflash.com/diamonds/Diamond_Details.aspx?idno=2141785
I don''t have links to the ones from HG although I have a copy of the GIA certificates with all the detail. The ones shown to me were all round brilliant; VS1 or VS2; colours D-G. I feel reasonably happy/confident to decide on the colour and clarity balance however with the cut, polish and symmetry, the HG diamonds are with one exception a mixture of very good or excellent, the one exception being all excellent. Does this make much difference?

While the Whiteflash diamond may be top grade across all measures and the others are not quite, they all use different terms and slightly different standards which means you are just really talking about unimportant points at the end of the day.

This all culminates to the point that once you factor in FX rate, import taxes and VAT, HG price is actually better than the Whiteflash price, but subject to views on my points above may not be better value

As an additional point, I asked about H&A and he said it was all a marketing gimmick and while some of his diamonds are H&A, he does not sell them as so and it only matters if you look at them under special conditions.

Thoughts gladly received.
 
Date: 10/1/2009 3:56:17 AM
Author:Tassaido
Hi there

I have been reading a lot about the cost savings between going online versus buying from bricks and mortar. I live in the UK and have been looking at Whiteflash. I then went to see a recommendation at Hatton Garden (everyone seems to have one apparently), he went through all his spiel and then gave me a selection of quotes on diamonds. We have settled on a size we like (approx 0.9) and cut (round) so now it is looking at colour, clarity etc. to see which we like.

The diamond I liked on Whiteflash was this one http://www.whiteflash.com/diamonds/Diamond_Details.aspx?idno=2141785
I don't have links to the ones from HG although I have a copy of the GIA certificates with all the detail. The ones shown to me were all round brilliant; VS1 or VS2; colours D-G. I feel reasonably happy/confident to decide on the colour and clarity balance however with the cut, polish and symmetry, the HG diamonds are with one exception a mixture of very good or excellent, the one exception being all excellent. Does this make much difference?

While the Whiteflash diamond may be top grade across all measures and the others are not quite, they all use different terms and slightly different standards which means you are just really talking about unimportant points at the end of the day.

This all culminates to the point that once you factor in FX rate, import taxes and VAT, HG price is actually better than the Whiteflash price, but subject to views on my points above may not be better value

As an additional point, I asked about H&A and he said it was all a marketing gimmick and while some of his diamonds are H&A, he does not sell them as so and it only matters if you look at them under special conditions.

Thoughts gladly received.
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Welcome!

Concerning the cut grades, you can't really rely on those especially if GIA graded to judge the cut of a diamond so what I would suggest is once you have all the details of some diamonds you are interested in, is to post all the details here so we can help you decide which is the best cut. The details we need are -

type of lab report and cut grade if applicable
depth%
table%
crown and pavilion angles
girdle thickness
polish and symmetry grades
diameter in MM
star and lower girdle facet percentages

Also you could contact Dr. Indira Marchant at www.bestdiamonds.co.uk Indira is in the Royal Exchange but can work remotely I believe, she is a wonderful lady who posts here and it would be well worth you contacting her to see what she can recommend. Indira sells Infinity if a h&a is what you want.

The WF diamond looks to be first rate so is a definite contender. Also h&a to me and many others here is decidedly not a gimmick, the diamonds which are considered to be " true" h&a are among the very best cut diamonds in the world, cut and crafted to the utmost precision to display not only top performance but precise h&a patterning. Now, concerning the hearts which are seen with the diamond face down - you won't see those in their entirety once set of course but it isn't always about being able to physically see the patterning of the diamond, it can be about knowing it is there and that one is wearing a superbly cut stone. So it depends on the particular buyer, their priorities and preferences.
 
Date: 10/1/2009 4:53:06 AM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 10/1/2009 3:56:17 AM
Author:Tassaido
Hi there

I have been reading a lot about the cost savings between going online versus buying from bricks and mortar. I live in the UK and have been looking at Whiteflash. I then went to see a recommendation at Hatton Garden (everyone seems to have one apparently), he went through all his spiel and then gave me a selection of quotes on diamonds. We have settled on a size we like (approx 0.9) and cut (round) so now it is looking at colour, clarity etc. to see which we like.

The diamond I liked on Whiteflash was this one http://www.whiteflash.com/diamonds/Diamond_Details.aspx?idno=2141785
I don''t have links to the ones from HG although I have a copy of the GIA certificates with all the detail. The ones shown to me were all round brilliant; VS1 or VS2; colours D-G. I feel reasonably happy/confident to decide on the colour and clarity balance however with the cut, polish and symmetry, the HG diamonds are with one exception a mixture of very good or excellent, the one exception being all excellent. Does this make much difference?

While the Whiteflash diamond may be top grade across all measures and the others are not quite, they all use different terms and slightly different standards which means you are just really talking about unimportant points at the end of the day.

This all culminates to the point that once you factor in FX rate, import taxes and VAT, HG price is actually better than the Whiteflash price, but subject to views on my points above may not be better value

As an additional point, I asked about H&A and he said it was all a marketing gimmick and while some of his diamonds are H&A, he does not sell them as so and it only matters if you look at them under special conditions.

Thoughts gladly received.
Click to expand...
Welcome!

Concerning the cut grades, you can''t really rely on those especially if GIA graded to judge the cut of a diamond so what I would suggest is once you have all the details of some diamonds you are interested in, is to post all the details here so we can help you decide which is the best cut. The details we need are -

type of lab report and cut grade if applicable
depth%
table%
crown and pavilion angles
girdle thickness
polish and symmetry grades
diameter in MM
star and lower girdle facet percentages

Also you could contact Dr. Indira Marchant at www.bestdiamonds.co.uk Indira is in the Royal Exchange but can work remotely I believe, she is a wonderful lady who posts here and it would be well worth you contacting her to see what she can recommend. Indira sells Infinity if a h&a is what you want.

The WF diamond looks to be first rate so is a definite contender. Also h&a to me and many others here is decidedly not a gimmick, the diamonds which are considered to be '' true'' h&a are among the very best cut diamonds in the world, cut and crafted to the utmost precision to display not only top performance but precise h&a patterning. Now, concerning the hearts which are seen with the diamond face down - you won''t see those in their entirety once set of course but it isn''t always about being able to physically see the patterning of the diamond, it can be about knowing it is there and that one is wearing a superbly cut stone. So it depends on the particular buyer, their priorities and preferences.
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Indira is a class act (we have each solved problems for clients on the opposite side of earth - so I know for a fact they are good people) and works with Infinity. You can deal face to face.
WF are great too.
either way you cant go wrong
 
Date: 10/1/2009 6:32:50 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 10/1/2009 4:53:06 AM
Author: Lorelei


Also you could contact Dr. Indira Marchant at www.bestdiamonds.co.uk Indira is in the Royal Exchange but can work remotely I believe, she is a wonderful lady who posts here and it would be well worth you contacting her to see what she can recommend. Indira sells Infinity if a h&a is what you want.
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Indira is a class act (we have each solved problems for clients on the opposite side of earth - so I know for a fact they are good people) and works with Infinity. You can deal face to face.
WF are great too.
either way you cant go wrong
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I agree with that wholeheartedly!!!
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Thank you for your suggestions. As it happens I am spitting distance from the Royal Exchange so I can look Dr Marchant up. Re the individual diamonds I have all the GIA reports on those not on WF. They are

1. GIA round brilliant G VS1; cut excellent; 0.92
depth% 60.8
table% 59
crown and pavilion angles 35.5 & 40.8
girdle thickness Medium
polish and symmetry grades Excellent and Excellent
diameter in MM 6.26 - 6.31
star and lower girdle facet percentages 50% & 80%

2. GIA round brilliant E VS1; cut excellent; 0.9
depth% 60.9
table% 59
crown and pavilion angles 33.5 & 41.2
girdle thickness Medium to STK (slightly thick?)
polish and symmetry grades Very Good and Excellent
diameter in MM 6.21 - 6.23
star and lower girdle facet percentages 50% & 80%

3. GIA round brilliant D VS1; cut very good; 0.9
depth% 63.1
table% 55
crown and pavilion angles 34.5 & 41.6
girdle thickness Thin to Medium
polish and symmetry grades Excellent and Very Good
diameter in MM 6.17 - 6.6.2
star and lower girdle facet percentages 50% & 75%

4. GIA round brilliant G VS1; cut excellent; 0.9
depth% 62.1
table% 56
crown and pavilion angles 35.5 & 41.0
girdle thickness Medium to STK
polish and symmetry grades Excellent and Excellent
diameter in MM 6.15 - 6.21
star and lower girdle facet percentages 50% & 80%

Thoughts gladly welcome. You did not ask for price but I have those if you need them. I am assuming the WF diamond is the best, but if it is somethig you can opine on, in the grand scheme of things are theones I have put above really much worse (if at all?)

Thanks a lot
 
From the numbers, not liking any of them.

Best bet would be #1 & #2. 3 & 4 are too far off ideal proportion.
 
Date: 10/1/2009 2:47:08 PM
Author: Tassaido
Thank you for your suggestions. As it happens I am spitting distance from the Royal Exchange so I can look Dr Marchant up. Re the individual diamonds I have all the GIA reports on those not on WF. They are

1. GIA round brilliant G VS1; cut excellent; 0.92
depth% 60.8
table% 59
crown and pavilion angles 35.5 & 40.8
girdle thickness Medium
polish and symmetry grades Excellent and Excellent
diameter in MM 6.26 - 6.31
star and lower girdle facet percentages 50% & 80%

2. GIA round brilliant E VS1; cut excellent; 0.9
depth% 60.9
table% 59
crown and pavilion angles 33.5 & 41.2
girdle thickness Medium to STK (slightly thick?)
polish and symmetry grades Very Good and Excellent
diameter in MM 6.21 - 6.23
star and lower girdle facet percentages 50% & 80%

3. GIA round brilliant D VS1; cut very good; 0.9
depth% 63.1
table% 55
crown and pavilion angles 34.5 & 41.6
girdle thickness Thin to Medium
polish and symmetry grades Excellent and Very Good
diameter in MM 6.17 - 6.6.2
star and lower girdle facet percentages 50% & 75%

4. GIA round brilliant G VS1; cut excellent; 0.9
depth% 62.1
table% 56
crown and pavilion angles 35.5 & 41.0
girdle thickness Medium to STK
polish and symmetry grades Excellent and Excellent
diameter in MM 6.15 - 6.21
star and lower girdle facet percentages 50% & 80%

Thoughts gladly welcome. You did not ask for price but I have those if you need them. I am assuming the WF diamond is the best, but if it is somethig you can opine on, in the grand scheme of things are theones I have put above really much worse (if at all?)

Thanks a lot
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You are most welcome!

The WF diamond is indeed the most promising, out of the ones above the first two might be worth further investigation but these are definite candidates for an Idealscope image to get a better idea of the cut quality.

That is a piece of luck that you are right near the Royal Exchange, do contact Indira if you can, she is such a great lady and will do her best to help you so I would see what she can come up with. She is also incredibly knowledgeable and a true expert who is passionate about diamonds, you will enjoy speaking with her!
 
Thank you for all your responses, I will need to do some further investigation. Couple more questions.

1. When you say you don''t like them based on the figures I have provided, is this you being very particular or is it all marginal? The reason I ask is there are lots of diamonds out there and presumably you could always find a better diamond but I want to understand whether it is personal preference or that actually I will be disappointed if I bought say #3 or #4 because I and others looking at it on mf GF''s finger can see it is inferior? I am a person who would struggle to buy something knowing for a little more money I could get a much better diamond by buying more cleverly e.g. WF v Hatton Garden but there comes a point where you have to make a decision

2. My man at HG rubbished AGS over GIA - from what I have read I know they may grade diamonds slightly differently but presumably both are highly reputable. Is one "better" than the other

Thanks a lot
 
Date: 10/2/2009 3:18:03 AM
Author: Tassaido
Thank you for all your responses, I will need to do some further investigation. Couple more questions.

1. When you say you don''t like them based on the figures I have provided, is this you being very particular or is it all marginal? The reason I ask is there are lots of diamonds out there and presumably you could always find a better diamond but I want to understand whether it is personal preference or that actually I will be disappointed if I bought say #3 or #4 because I and others looking at it on mf GF''s finger can see it is inferior? I am a person who would struggle to buy something knowing for a little more money I could get a much better diamond by buying more cleverly e.g. WF v Hatton Garden but there comes a point where you have to make a decision

2. My man at HG rubbished AGS over GIA - from what I have read I know they may grade diamonds slightly differently but presumably both are highly reputable. Is one ''better'' than the other

Thanks a lot
Click to expand...

#3 and #4 will be leak light and slightly smaller than if cut ideally. So basically you are paying for weight, diamond are priced by the weight, that you can''t see and that the extra weight is making the stone look worse.

AGS is on par with GIA on color and clarity grading but stricter on cut grading. As you can see from your example of #4, GIA''s Ex cut grade allows for some proportion that leaks light.
 
Date: 10/2/2009 3:18:03 AM
Author: Tassaido
Thank you for all your responses, I will need to do some further investigation. Couple more questions.

1. When you say you don't like them based on the figures I have provided, is this you being very particular or is it all marginal? The reason I ask is there are lots of diamonds out there and presumably you could always find a better diamond but I want to understand whether it is personal preference or that actually I will be disappointed if I bought say #3 or #4 because I and others looking at it on mf GF's finger can see it is inferior? I am a person who would struggle to buy something knowing for a little more money I could get a much better diamond by buying more cleverly e.g. WF v Hatton Garden but there comes a point where you have to make a decision

2. My man at HG rubbished AGS over GIA - from what I have read I know they may grade diamonds slightly differently but presumably both are highly reputable. Is one 'better' than the other

Thanks a lot
Click to expand...
The first two are well cut and might be worth a perusal but the others are not - the third is too deep and has a very steep pavilion angle which is undesirable ( the diamond can leak light because of this) and the last is what we call a steep deep and also can leak light so I am not being picky but pointing out that the latter ones aren't the best choice.

AGS don't appear to be as well known in the UK as they are in the US however along with GIA they are a top tier lab and indeed their cut grading is considered preferable, more on how the grading labs rank here.
 
This is probably why the prices of the 4 Hatton Garden diamonds I saw which I thought were quite reasonable is due to the fact they are not as high a quality as the WF diamond. I will need to go back and see what else he can offer. On the WF diamond (http://www.whiteflash.com/diamonds/Diamond_Details.aspx?idno=2141785) I take the fact it is their ACA range that it should be of the highest quality. Aside from colour, clarity and carat differences, are the various metrics of these diamonds in such a small tolerance as to not make little difference?

The other ones sugegsted by WF are
http://www.whiteflash.com/diamonds/Diamond_Details.aspx?idno=2145457
http://www.whiteflash.com/diamonds/Diamond_Details.aspx?idno=2141787
http://www.whiteflash.com/diamonds/Diamond_Details.aspx?idno=2119055

Once again thank you for your help
 
Date: 10/2/2009 6:13:31 AM
Author: Tassaido
This is probably why the prices of the 4 Hatton Garden diamonds I saw which I thought were quite reasonable is due to the fact they are not as high a quality as the WF diamond. I will need to go back and see what else he can offer. On the WF diamond (http://www.whiteflash.com/diamonds/Diamond_Details.aspx?idno=2141785) I take the fact it is their ACA range that it should be of the highest quality. Aside from colour, clarity and carat differences, are the various metrics of these diamonds in such a small tolerance as to not make little difference?

The other ones sugegsted by WF are
http://www.whiteflash.com/diamonds/Diamond_Details.aspx?idno=2145457
http://www.whiteflash.com/diamonds/Diamond_Details.aspx?idno=2141787
http://www.whiteflash.com/diamonds/Diamond_Details.aspx?idno=2119055

Once again thank you for your help
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I will take a look at the other WF suggestions for you and concerning the ones from HG compared to the WF diamond first mentioned, these are not cut as well as the WF stone.

The three ACA's you posted also look great, which to choose depends on budget and your colour and clarity preferences. Also if you want a h&a diamond then you would definitely be better off looking at an ACA or Infinity from Indira, concerning the HG diamonds we have no idea whether these are in fact h&a or not ( I would guess not!)
 
The ACA looks good to me.

Also, ACA is on par with Infinity cut stones.
 
Thank you one and all - it is all becoming a bit clearer. I will do some more investigations and I may be back for more of your great advice
 
Date: 10/2/2009 7:11:03 AM
Author: Tassaido
Thank you one and all - it is all becoming a bit clearer. I will do some more investigations and I may be back for more of your great advice
Click to expand...
You are most welcome, just ask if you need any more assistance.
 
Date: 10/2/2009 7:50:35 AM
Author: Tassaido
Since you asked LOL

One more thing just sprung to mind. On the basis WF ACA is their top cut, I have looked at these two diamonds

http://www.whiteflash.com/diamonds/Diamond_Details.aspx?idno=2119055 (was one from a post above)
http://www.whiteflash.com/diamonds/Diamond_Details.aspx?idno=2119054

They are the same price, colour. Clarity is VS1 v VS2 (does this make the difference?). I would assume therefore the ACA would be markedly more expensive than the Round cut. Any pointers please?
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I will just take a look for you - hehe!! You can notice a difference in price with VS1 compared to VS2 in some cases and depending on other factors depending on the diamonds involved, but not visually as most diamonds in this size of these clarities should be eyeclean. The second looks like a lovely diamond, it is one of their Expert Selection compared to an ACA so it depends on what you want, a h&a or just a well cut diamond, if you just want a great cut then the second one could make an excellent choice.
 
This is where I get confused and is related to one of my earlier questions. I have read about H&A and what it looks like under certain conditions to produce the hearts and arrows configuration. I took this to mean that a well cut diamond would produce this effect and that it is a by product rather than being the central target of the diamond cutter. Am I wrong in thinking this?

Ultimately what I want is the best diamond I can get for my money. I accept it is a personal choice but is it fair to say between an H&A and a well cut diamond in this sense it is more what I would know in my own mind rather than an external difference?

As a side question, Lorelei (and others for that matter) you are very quick to respond for which I am grateful but are you very knowledgeable consumers of diamonds or work in the diamond industry? If I have crossed some forum boundary then I apologise and don''t worry if you don''t want to answer the question, I am merely intrigued
 
Date: 10/2/2009 8:11:16 AM
Author: Tassaido
This is where I get confused and is related to one of my earlier questions. I have read about H&A and what it looks like under certain conditions to produce the hearts and arrows configuration. I took this to mean that a well cut diamond would produce this effect and that it is a by product rather than being the central target of the diamond cutter. Am I wrong in thinking this?

This page explains how h&a came to be here. You can also find some diamonds which have great optical symmetry ( which produces the h&a patterning) but wouldn't be called " true" h&a - read more here to gain an understanding of how hearts and arrows are judged.

Ultimately what I want is the best diamond I can get for my money. I accept it is a personal choice but is it fair to say between an H&A and a well cut diamond in this sense it is more what I would know in my own mind rather than an external difference?

Possibly, the branded h&a you have been considering are of top cut quality with h&a patterning and performance, if you aren't as bothered about having h&a then a well cut stone such as the other WF diamond could make a great choice. It comes down to personal preference and " mind clean" issues, as long as you have a well cut and proportioned diamond you will have a pretty stone.

As a side question, Lorelei (and others for that matter) you are very quick to respond for which I am grateful but are you very knowledgeable consumers of diamonds or work in the diamond industry? If I have crossed some forum boundary then I apologise and don't worry if you don't want to answer the question, I am merely intrigued

I am merely a very enthusiastic amateur who loves diamonds, I have been on Pricescope for years now as one of the longest serving and experienced consumer posters because I enjoy helping so much - and thats fine to ask, no problem at all! At this time I am not part of the diamond industry so purely doing this on a voluntary basis. Most of the people helping here are just consumers like myself, the experts are quite easy to identify and they have contact details on their posts, you will know who is in the industry that way.
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Thank you once again. What are mind clean and eye clean? Can I detect these from the information provided by the vendors or is it like the name suggests something you have to see (eye clean) and be comfortabel with (mind clean)? Can I ask if a diamond is eye clean of a vendor?
 
Date: 10/2/2009 8:43:16 AM
Author: Tassaido
Thank you once again. What are mind clean and eye clean? Can I detect these from the information provided by the vendors or is it like the name suggests something you have to see (eye clean) and be comfortabel with (mind clean)? Can I ask if a diamond is eye clean of a vendor?
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I will post some links to help - mind clean is a phrase coined by our DancingFire, it basically means the individual buyer's comfort level, for example some have to have VS clarity or above to make the diamond ' mind clean' to them, others need picture perfect h&a to be mind clean etc, some only want colourless diamonds and very high clarity as that to them is mind clean, the list goes on.!

Eyeclean - nornally with VS or above clarity the majority will be totally eyeclean - this is a subject which is probably best explained in this new article by PS's Coatimundi
 
I have spoken to Indira at Best Diamonds who was very pleasant and helpful. I have looked at her diamond selection and I am struggling to find a diamond of the size I am looking for which is also in the colour/clarity range I am after which is of a price i want to pay, unlike on WF. The closest was this one http://www.fortrez.com/index.php?page=view-id-diamond-infinity&id=682. Are these diamonds a "cut" above WF ACA and that is why I am struggling? Even with the import duty on WF the price is still not competitive

Thanks
 
Date: 10/2/2009 11:09:11 AM
Author: Tassaido
I have spoken to Indira at Best Diamonds who was very pleasant and helpful. I have looked at her diamond selection and I am struggling to find a diamond of the size I am looking for which is also in the colour/clarity range I am after which is of a price i want to pay, unlike on WF. The closest was this one http://www.fortrez.com/index.php?page=view-id-diamond-infinity&id=682. Are these diamonds a 'cut' above WF ACA and that is why I am struggling? Even with the import duty on WF the price is still not competitive

Thanks
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I am glad you got on well with Indira!!! The Infinity diamond is beautiful and yes comparable to WF ACA being a superideal cut branded h&a - either could be a super choice but go with the one which makes the best sense financially if it comes down to that, both should be gorgeous stones!
 
I think that is sensible advice. So unless I get derailed I will go for one of the WF ACA diamonds

I will post back some pics ocne I have completed the purchase

All the best
 
Date: 10/2/2009 12:05:36 PM
Author: Tassaido
I think that is sensible advice. So unless I get derailed I will go for one of the WF ACA diamonds

I will post back some pics ocne I have completed the purchase

All the best
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Glad to help, let us know how you get on and I eagerly await pics!!
 
Oops sorry I just realised I have asked that one already
 
Date: 10/3/2009 10:25:05 AM
Author: Tassaido
Oops sorry I just realised I have asked that one already
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No need to apologize!
 
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