Dental bill makes me mad

[Tekate]

My sister was a special ed teacher. She was well on her way to her PhD when she died. All her adult life she worked 5++ days a week, she had in-service. She had boards, she had to go to seminars, she was licensed.. Every five years she had to be recertified. https://www.education.pa.gov/Educators/ContinuinEd/Act 48 and PERMS/Pages/default.aspx

She worked five days a week or more. She missed soccer games, she missed birthdays, she worked very very hard. She had 60 teachers reporting to her, she went to Pittsburg for a weekend every month for years and years for training. Not only her training but training on training. Training on child abuse, training on special ed as she was originally a special ed teacher and moved up. She made good money. Not GREAT money. People wank about teachers and their salaries, but she worked her butt off and she worked five days a week, or more. She had more paperwork than anyone I have ever known. Grants, IEPs, reviews.

I don't think your your family members are sitting on their butts doing nothing, but I dentists worked 6 days a week when I was a kid and I think doctors, dentists etc should work to assist those who don't/can't get to a dentist within the 4 days week that dentists work.

I would imagine orthodontics is hard, but that doesn't negate the fact that my ortho, my sons ortho worked 4 days a week. Just don't.

Yes debt is very high for the medical profession, my SIL is a pediatric cardiologist, she highly recommended her kids not go into the medical field and they haven't. We all work hard.

My sister had to spend her own money also for her continuing education on weekends, truthfully I think she worked 7 days a week. We all work hard.

I'm glad medical people make a lot of money and can have Mercs and BMWs etc, I just wish teachers could too.

My SIL does free work in Appalahia every 5th week of the year. I hear you.

My sister never had a new car in her whole adult life. Wish she had, she worked very very hard.

I just wanted to chime in on the "only working 4 days a week" bit re dentists and those in the field. My BIL is an orthodontist (as is his father) and I have two first cousins who are dentists. Dental school is extremely competitive and difficult, and I can't even imagine how excruciating orthodontic school would be (there aren't that many, and classes tend to be super small -- BIL's class had EIGHT students... and this isn't a small school... LSU). School is hard and the debt incurred is A LOT.

Then when they graduate and get licensed/certified by their Boards, it's not over. They all work their a$$es off with all the CE and extra stuff just to stay up-to-date. BIL is constantly going to CE weekend studies -- that are not free, nor are they "vacation-like". He works 4 days a week in his orthodontic office, then the 5th day is spent in surgery -- so just because the office is closed doesn't mean he's sitting at home in a robe smoking Cuban cigars. LOL Also, paperwork is REAL... he says that he spends much more time on paperwork than actual time with patients and office stuff. He takes a lot of his paperwork home.

He also does at least one mission every couple of years in which he helps those with cleft palates have a normal life by working for FREE and traveling ON HIS DIME. He is luckier, in that he will eventually take over his father's very established orthodontic office, and he doesn't have so much equipment to buy out of pocket starting out. However, equipment doesn't last forever and is not completely maintenance-free. The cost of a dental office is phenomenal. It's not all about the dentist/orthodontist/surgeon getting rich. It's about providing the best possible care to your patients. I hope that helps explain the perceived "bank schedules" of this profession.

 

[msop04]

My sister was a special ed teacher. She was well on her way to her PhD when she died. All her adult life she worked 5++ days a week, she had in-service. She had boards, she had to go to seminars, she was licensed.. Every five years she had to be recertified. https://www.education.pa.gov/Educators/ContinuinEd/Act 48 and PERMS/Pages/default.aspx

She worked five days a week or more. She missed soccer games, she missed birthdays, she worked very very hard. She had 60 teachers reporting to her, she went to Pittsburg for a weekend every month for years and years for training. Not only her training but training on training. Training on child abuse, training on special ed as she was originally a special ed teacher and moved up. She made good money. Not GREAT money. People wank about teachers and their salaries, but she worked her butt off and she worked five days a week, or more. She had more paperwork than anyone I have ever known. Grants, IEPs, reviews.

I don't think your your family members are sitting on their butts doing nothing, but I dentists worked 6 days a week when I was a kid and I think doctors, dentists etc should work to assist those who don't/can't get to a dentist within the 4 days week that dentists work.

I would imagine orthodontics is hard, but that doesn't negate the fact that my ortho, my sons ortho worked 4 days a week. Just don't.

Yes debt is very high for the medical profession, my SIL is a pediatric cardiologist, she highly recommended her kids not go into the medical field and they haven't. We all work hard.

My sister had to spend her own money also for her continuing education on weekends, truthfully I think she worked 7 days a week. We all work hard.

I'm glad medical people make a lot of money and can have Mercs and BMWs etc, I just wish teachers could too.

My SIL does free work in Appalahia every 5th week of the year. I hear you.

My sister never had a new car in her whole adult life. Wish she had, she worked very very hard.

It's a choice. When choosing a field of study, once must take into considerations the pros and cons. One of the pros of a lot of professions is a comfortable salary... at the price of rigorous study, high student debt, sacrifice of youth, and lots of liability. I think teachers should be paid more as well... as my sister is a teacher (and so was my dad). She knew she wouldn't make a ton of money and that she would have to work after hours, a lot of times taking things home after class. She also gets summers off and great benefits. That was her choice.

And not all medical people drive Mercedes and BMWs. But if they did, I suppose that would be perfectly fine.

PS... I don't understand anyone who would discourage someone from any field of study, simply because it is expensive and will involve debt... as long as said field will allow that person to pay it back comfortably, it doesn't seem like a deal breaker to me. That said, if you don't want a lot of student debt (and I can understand that), don't be shocked if you choose a field that doesn't cost as much (for education), but pays less... and you can't afford that BMW or whatever. It's all about choices.

 

[msop04]

I don't think your your family members are sitting on their butts doing nothing, but I dentists worked 6 days a week when I was a kid and I think doctors, dentists etc should work to assist those who don't/can't get to a dentist within the 4 days week that dentists work.

There are dentists and orthos who work non-traditional days/hours... and almost all dentists and orthos are on call for emergencies. What you think they should work really doesn't matter... I mean, look at banks and post offices. They're never open when I need them! LOL

My sister never had a new car in her whole adult life. Wish she had, she worked very very hard.

I'm sorry to hear that, if a new car is something she desired... but she had to know what type of salary to expect when she chose her profession, right?? I don't mean for that to come across as sounding mean... but there are incentives to certain professions. If your sister would've chosen another field that paid a lot more, she would have had more money, sure, but maybe she wouldn't have been fulfilled, as she may not have been as passionate about it? See what I mean? It's a trade off...

Edited to add...
My father was a high school teacher and my mother was a secretary... while they were married, they bought 1 new car, a Subaru wagon. My father had rental property as a second income, and strongly encouraged us to choose a profession that made enough money so that we would be comfortable, live the lifestyle we desired, and that would make us independent (this part more so after my parents divorced). Although he preached independence, he never discouraged my youngest sister from her dream of being a teacher... but he did have long talks with her about what to expect from a pay standpoint, as well as the extra time that would surely be spend out of the classroom. He wanted her to fully understand the "real life" of being in education and that she not go into it with false expectations, with regrets later on.

 

[FinleysMom]

Did the dentist provide excellent, skilled medical treatment? THAT is what you are paying for. I love my dentist. He is very skilled ...and I am glad he is. Nothing is free. Sorry to burst illusions.

 

[msop04]

Did the dentist provide excellent, skilled medical treatment? THAT is what you are paying for. I love my dentist. He is very skilled ...and I am glad he is. Nothing is free. Sorry to burst illusions.

Exactly.

 

[Calliecake]

@Tekate , My smile is what bothers me the most. Looking in the mirror is hard enough when you get to be my age, now I also get to add on feeling bad about my smile. My sweet husband always tries to make me feel like it doesn’t look bad. We have mirrors in the house. I know it looks bad.

@mosp, fingers crossed for you!

 

[YadaYadaYada]

DH complains about the bills for dental procedures at the dentist we see, he is in a very affluent area and I travel half an hour to see him and have been going there for 22 years. I tell him if you have a problem with the cost then by all means go somewhere else but I'm willing to pay the extra to make sure everything is done right.

Ironically DH is the one who has problems because he does not always take care of his teeth properly and has a terrible sweet tooth, he is also a diabetic, so a lot of his complaints could be avoided with more effort on his part.

My dentist is a funny guy, he likes to talk about himself and that comes off as arrogant to DH but he hasn't left yet so I guess they're doing something right

 

[tyty333]

Do you want to hear some more whining because I'm full of it today. Just came back from the oral surgeon and my $1500+ implant did not
"take". He wants to try again but I have a feeling it wont work. Anyone had it fail once then work the second time? I'm just so tired of this.
I've been through a lot of pain, been without a molar for 4 months, and not to mention the $1500+ I've had to shell out. At least there is no
charge for letting him try again (thankful for small miracles).

The other option is a bridge. Needless to say, I need to go do some research to figure out if I really want to go through it again or just get a bridge.

Ba hum bug!

 

[msop04]

Do you want to hear some more whining because I'm full of it today. Just came back from the oral surgeon and my $1500+ implant did not
"take". He wants to try again but I have a feeling it wont work. Anyone had it fail once then work the second time? I'm just so tired of this.
I've been through a lot of pain, been without a molar for 4 months, and not to mention the $1500+ I've had to shell out. At least there is no
charge for letting him try again (thankful for small miracles).

The other option is a bridge. Needless to say, I need to go do some research to figure out if I really want to go through it again or just get a bridge.

Ba hum bug!

Oh no... this happened to my MIL. She waited months only to find out that the first one didn't take. Fortunately, the second one did and she is fine now. Since it won't cost you to try again, I would definitely choose this to a bridge. Best of luck to you, @tyty333!!!

 

[tyty333]

Thank you @msop04! Those are the stories I'm hoping to hear!!! I'm glad it worked out the second time around for your MIL.

 

[msop04]

Thank you @msop04! Those are the stories I'm hoping to hear!!! I'm glad it worked out the second time around for your MIL.

No problem! I felt so bad for her, as she was at her wit's end after the first, but she has been good ever since the second one. Let us know how it goes!

Edited to add: Whatever you do, don't go online -- you'll only read horror stories.

 

[Austina]

@Calliecake, why didn’t your dentist suggest a mouth guard to wear at night so you didn’t end up losing your tooth?

DH had seriously damaged teeth from having measles as a child. He recently thought about having his teeth crowned, but the dentist we went to, said it was unnecessary and she could drastically improve the look of his teeth using composite fillings. She has evened out his teeth, filled in gaps, even straightened the look of them without the need for invasive drilling etc. They’re by no means perfect, but the difference is amazing. Even having this done privately here (UK), the cost has not been prohibitive.

 

[JPie]

It's appalling how poorly teachers get paid, but it's not a zero-sum game. The money that dentists make isn't being taken away from teachers' salaries.

On the flip side, is it right that teachers who work just as hard as dentists, if not harder, get paid so much less? Nope.

I can't speak for other countries, but Americans really need to rethink how we assign value to both skilled and unskilled labor.

 

[msop04]

It's appalling how poorly teachers get paid, but it's not a zero-sum game. The money that dentists make isn't being taken away from teachers' salaries.

On the flip side, is it right that teachers who work just as hard as dentists, if not harder, get paid so much less? Nope.

I can't speak for other countries, but Americans really need to rethink how we assign value to both skilled and unskilled labor.

No one makes you be a teacher, just as no one forces anyone to be anything that they choose as their profession. Their are pros and cons to any profession... we always have a choice. I doubt very seriously that most surgeons would go through all that training to be paid a teacher's salary. The pay is for the skills that not everyone is capable of or chooses to learn...

I agree that educators don't get paid enough... I'm not saying they don't work hard... I know they do. But to be fair, their schooling (to learn specific skills) isn't as rigorous or as long as many other higher-paying professions. Now that's not to say that the level of difficulty is directly proportional to pay either... ask anyone in research, and they'll tell you that's not true as well. As my sister (the teacher) says, "...you better love it, because you sure aren't gonna get rich being a teacher!"

 

[JPie]

I agree that educators don't get paid enough... I'm not saying they don't work hard... I know they do. But to be fair, their schooling (to learn specific skills) isn't as rigorous or as long as many other higher-paying professions. Now that's not to say that the level of difficulty is directly proportional to pay either... ask anyone in research, and they'll tell you that's not true as well. As my sister (the teacher) says, "...you better love it, because you sure aren't gonna get rich being a teacher!"

I don't think it makes much sense to place value on a profession based on the level of education required, and as you've pointed out, it doesn't work that way regardless. I think that Americans as a whole should strive to ensure a certain standard of living for all citizens, though I'm sure I'd be accused of being a commie or socialist.

Anyway, I'll leave it at that since I'd completely derail this thread otherwise.

Edited to add: I must've replied before you had a chance to finish your thought. Yes, it's a choice, but it makes little sense to place such a heavy financial burden on people who choose to dedicate themselves to educating children. When you consider how much of a societal and economic impact that having an uneducated populace has on our country, then paying teachers poorly because they didn't go to school long enough becomes obviously foolish and simplistic.

 

[msop04]

I don't think it makes much sense to place value on a profession based on the level of education required, and as you've pointed out, it doesn't work that way regardless. I think that Americans as a whole should strive to ensure a certain standard of living for all citizens, though I'm sure I'd be accused of being a commie or socialist.

Anyway, I'll leave it at that since I'd completely derail this thread otherwise.

Edited to add: I must've replied before you had a chance to finish your thought. Yes, it's a choice, but it makes little sense to place such a heavy financial burden on people who choose to dedicate themselves to educating children. When you consider how much of a societal and economic impact that having an uneducated populace has on our country, then paying teachers poorly because they didn't go to school long enough becomes obviously foolish and simplistic.

That works, in theory, but if everyone is compensated the same way, regardless of education or skill level, then there is no incentive to try harder or "put in the extra time/effort." Regarding heavy financial burdens, I wasn't aware that there was such on education. I know a ton of teachers (that have graduated in the last 5-15 years), and none of them have massive student debt. I guess it's all relative to your salary though. For example, my student debt was 3-5+ times what theirs was, but I make more, and can pay it.

I didn't mean the length of education either... I meant the level of difficulty.

I think we all agree that educators aren't paid enough...

 

[JPie]

That works, in theory, but if everyone is compensated the same way, regardless of education or skill level, then there is no incentive to try harder or "put in the extra time/effort." Regarding heavy financial burdens, I wasn't aware that there was such on education. I know a ton of teachers (that have graduated in the last 5-15 years), and none of them have massive student debt. I guess it's all relative to your salary though. For example, my student debt was 3-5+ times what theirs was, but I make more, and can pay it.

I didn't mean the length of education either... I meant the level of difficulty.

I think we all agree that educators aren't paid enough...

I'm glad that the teachers you know are doing well, but that doesn't seem to be the trend nationwide:
https://www.epi.org/publication/the...all-further-behind-pay-of-comparable-workers/
https://www.westword.com/news/denve...s-over-pay-that-could-lead-to-strike-11081393
http://www.wistv.com/2019/01/04/were-losing-teachers-sc-ed-pushes-salary-increase/
https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/201...es-so-teachers-dont-have-to-become-principals

I'm not suggesting that everyone be compensated the same way, ie a new house, luxury sedan, and KORS purses for all. I'm saying that there needs to be a living minimum wage so that anyone who works 40 hours a week at one or more jobs can afford basic necessities (housing, utilities, food, transportation) and medical care.

And regarding the length of education vs. difficulty, I'm not sure I understand the point you're making since you've already acknowledged that it has no bearing on pay:

But to be fair, their schooling (to learn specific skills) isn't as rigorous or as long as many other higher-paying professions. Now that's not to say that the level of difficulty is directly proportional to pay either... ask anyone in research, and they'll tell you that's not true as well.

 

[Calliecake]

@Calliecake, why didn’t your dentist suggest a mouth guard to wear at night so you didn’t end up losing your tooth?
.

I have a night guard for my top teeth now. When all the damage was being done to my teeth, I wasn’t really aware of it since it was all being done in my sleep. I was also the last person on my priority list at the time, which I know was a big mistake on my part.

 

[msop04]

I'm glad that the teachers you know are doing well, but that doesn't seem to be the trend nationwide:
https://www.epi.org/publication/the...all-further-behind-pay-of-comparable-workers/
https://www.westword.com/news/denve...s-over-pay-that-could-lead-to-strike-11081393
http://www.wistv.com/2019/01/04/were-losing-teachers-sc-ed-pushes-salary-increase/
https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/201...es-so-teachers-dont-have-to-become-principals

I'm not suggesting that everyone be compensated the same way, ie a new house, luxury sedan, and KORS purses for all. I'm saying that there needs to be a living minimum wage so that anyone who works 40 hours a week at one or more jobs can afford basic necessities (housing, utilities, food, transportation) and medical care.

And regarding the length of education vs. difficulty, I'm not sure I understand the point you're making since you've already acknowledged that it has no bearing on pay:

I didn't say they were doing well... I think they should be paid more. Teachers have always been underpaid, IMO... not to mention the fact that they aren't even allowed to educate anymore. All that matters is test scores for state funding, regardless of what the students are REALLY learning (at least in the South anyway). All the teachers I know are disgusted with how public education has become... with the state stressing them out all the time with testing. All they do is prepare for the state tests, and it's not benefitting the students.

The term "living wage" is subjective to a lot of factors. It's also dependent on cost of living for an area, such as housing. The South is much less expensive than, say, the upper East Coast or SF Bay area. Although teachers' pay is dependent on the school district, most teachers I know make about $40-55K+. Most of those teachers have BS and Masters degrees, which is pretty standard. My sister was able to go back and get her Masters - which was paid for mostly by TN. This was at least 7 years ago, and I don't think it is offered anymore, nor do I know if other states offer the same thing.

Regarding education vs. pay... what I'm saying is that some fields are going to pay more than others... obviously, those professionals are paid for their vast knowledge and skill associated with their discipline(s). There are usually a few exceptions to every rule, but for the most part, higher paying professions require much more rigorous educational training, very lengthy schooling, and/or expensive schooling (due to the cost of the school AND the length of time spent there). Not everyone is going to be a surgeon, CPA, or engineer...

Of course it would be amazing if we could all do what we love and love what we do, but higher pay is definitely an incentive to put oneself through said training. If I wanted to do what made me super happy and pay were not an issue, I would be working in a jewelry shop full time and taking care of as many cats as my house could hold -- but then I wouldn't be able to have the lifestyle (and bling ) I desire, so there is a trade-off... but man, wouldn't that be fun??!! I'd have like 12 cats, seriously.

Edited to add: My dad finally retired after 32.5 years of teaching. He said that education was going downhill, and that he never dreamed it could get this bad... he said this in 1995, and he retired in 2004. He's said time and time again that if he were a young man and could do it over, he wouldn't even consider education... and the crap pay wasn't even close to his biggest gripes, although I'm sure he feels they are definitely overworked and undercompensated.

 

[Tekate]

There are dentists and orthos who work non-traditional days/hours... and almost all dentists and orthos are on call for emergencies. What you think they should work really doesn't matter... I mean, look at banks and post offices. They're never open when I need them! LOL

Yup. Banks, open 24 hours a day now and every bank (back in the day of course, many people have EFTs etc) they were open Saturday mornings till 12 or 1. (or were in Poughkeepsie NY near where i lived, Marine Midland bank, but we rarely if ever go to a bank unless it's to the safe deposit box). You can do just about anything at the ATM of a bank. Now if you want to take a loan out, gotta wait till they open. My bank today Coastal Credit union has a teller from 7am to 7pm, but I've not had a check since about 2000 except on rare occasion. This is the CU I use in Austin that has great hours, https://www.goamplify.com/contact/locations/

What I think dentists/orthodontists should do matters to me and to people I think who cannot get to a dentist during the week due to no PT time, no V time, working more than one job, one should be able to get their teeth cleaned on a Saturday. When I was young and got little time off I7 could take a 1/2 on a Friday and go to the dentist and had every one of my filings replaced in the mid 70s on Saturday at my dentist.


I'm sorry to hear that, if a new car is something she desired... but she had to know what type of salary to expect when she chose her profession, right?? I don't mean for that to come across as sounding mean... but there are incentives to certain professions. If your sister would've chosen another field that paid a lot more, she would have had more money, sure, but maybe she wouldn't have been fulfilled, as she may not have been as passionate about it? See what I mean? It's a trade off...

My point was, my sister worked very hard was a high level person and put in the same hours and more than a dentist/ortho, isn't helping poor, developmentally disabled people as important? I'm saying my sister was underpaid and dentists etc are overpaid. It is entirely true that people are paid according to what it costs to replace them, AND the value people place on the job. Did she know she wasn't going to make a dentists salary, sure, but she did want to help and found the job most times very enriching. We don't always chose careers, they choose us, if she had chosen say nursing she would have been unhappy I think. In her position she did get summers off, at least for 20 years or so, but then the summers become in-service, training and that was that, only 2 weeks off. I chose a career for money, I wish I hadn't but I did, in the end I was able to enjoy my career as I moved up, but it took a while.

Edited to add...
My father was a high school teacher and my mother was a secretary... while they were married, they bought 1 new car, a Subaru wagon. My father had rental property as a second income, and strongly encouraged us to choose a profession that made enough money so that we would be comfortable, live the lifestyle we desired, and that would make us independent (this part more so after my parents divorced). Although he preached independence, he never discouraged my youngest sister from her dream of being a teacher... but he did have long talks with her about what to expect from a pay standpoint, as well as the extra time that would surely be spend out of the classroom. He wanted her to fully understand the "real life" of being in education and that she not go into it with false expectations, with regrets later on.

My sister was comfortable, she owned better homes and she certainly made more money than our dad, our dad was a conductor on the NYCentral/Penn Central/AMTRAK - he made money but not enough for a highly comfortable life as my sister or I did. My mother was a housewife, there were 4 of us kids, and drinking was a huge problem. My father didn't even encourage my sister or I to go to college, he just assumed we'd get married and be like our mom, our mom pushed us to be more, not my Dad. Everyone has a story to tell.

I am 66 if my sister were alive today she would be 68, maybe our Dad was from a different generation but most Dad's I knew didn't have talks with their daughters about careers vs jobs, most were pushed to be teachers, nurses, secretaries, housewives. I'm really happy your Dad informed your sister of the lesser pay that some states pay their teachers. Many many people leave teaching after a years. You had a great Dad! Teaching has a huge attrition rate see below.

https://www.eschoolnews.com/2018/02/20/taking-teacher-attrition/

msop, I'm not trying to argue with you or change your opinion, I understand your opinion(s) and why you think the way you. I have my opinion and I know what I know and what I've seen and experienced. You are a GREAT PSer and I love reading your stuff, I respect you and hope you feel the same for me. I am very happy to agree to disagree and I am happy to continue to read your great postings, pictures etc.. you have awesome jewlery. So I say thank you for sharing your experiences and knowledge it gave me a perspective I hadn't thought about 100%. Peace.

 

[msop04]

@Tekate...

Differences in opinions are what makes the world interesting! I’m always interested to read how others feel and think, as it helps open my mind, gives me perspective, and also helps to continually shape my own beliefs and opinions.

 

[Tekate]

Me too and as I said, I always learn. Peace

@Tekate...

Differences in opinions are what makes the world interesting! I’m always interested to read how others feel and think, as it helps open my mind, gives me perspective, and also helps to continually shape my own beliefs and opinions.