Dealing with one another as Pricescope participants

[oldminer]

Rather than hijack any other thread, I decided to post this as a new topic. It isn''t just diamonds, so it may not be here for long, but it may be good advice for those who often come here for enjoyment, education and entertainment.
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When there is a debate, like you''d see in the British House of Commons, there almost always is someone who stands up for a less well thought of position in which they may truly be vested and believe in. Often they appear to be ridiculed by their fellow members. They have their say, the other members make a few ugly grunts and noises, and then the work of consensus building continues among the majority of the House. Everyone is entitled to their position, but not all positions are right or deserve the same level of respect. The majority will rule although when large minorities form, many final bills which pass are highly modified from the ajority position so that other points of view, although minority, are taken into account because there is good sense in these minority views, too, on many occasions.

When folks can''t think of something nice to publish, it might be best to not type anything into the computer. However, when a poster often makes unpopular assertions and statements there are bound to be times that someone reading them will respond with their frustration showing. When you have unpopular opinions you can freely express them, but you must be willing to pay the price by reading the opposing views of other people. Some of these opposing views may be powerful and more correct than your own. Being able to admit that your point of view is not the only one, or one that may not be the correct one, is very difficult for some people to accept. We have seen children raised and now beocme adults with the feeling that everything they do is right and good even when they are acting like little tyrants or jerks. No wonder, when you think it is your place to correct a grown person who has potentially been raised believing they are always right that they feel hurt or injured. So, be careful what you decide to "submit" unless you feel you are in a position that you can properly and ethically defend yourself.

 

[Gleam]

For what it''s worth, as a consumer, I always note the tag-lines (with the company name, say, White Flash or Diamonds by Lauren -- just random examples) and avoid the vendors who have representatives here who I feel post with undue negativity or abrasiveness.

I always find discussions that involve disagreements between professionals very interesting. On the other hand, how a businssman treats his colleagues speaks volumes about he also runs his business. And I''d rather not deal with someone who can''t show others in his industry some basic respect.

 

[clgwli]

Date: 11/9/2009 8:38:02 AM
Author: Gleam
For what it''s worth, as a consumer, I always note the tag-lines (with the company name, say, White Flash or Diamonds by Lauren -- just random examples) and avoid the vendors who have representatives here who I feel post with undue negativity or abrasiveness.

I always find discussions that involve disagreements between professionals very interesting. On the other hand, how a businssman treats his colleagues speaks volumes about he also runs his business. And I''d rather not deal with someone who can''t show others in his industry some basic respect.

I have to agree with looking at the signature or tag lines. I know that people will not always agree, but how disagreements are handled means a lot. To agree to disagree in a polite manner goes a long way.

I know I have non-traditional ideas of beauty when it comes to diamonds, but you will never see me say that others are strange, idiots, wrong etc for liking the ones I do not care for. When a vendor speaks somewhat like that, it really makes me less likely to purchase from them.

 

[Hest88]

Right, but OTOH, although there are *very* knowlegeable consumers here, I''ve also seen consumers leap in and try to argue with a professional as if they have equal experience. I find that just as cringe-worthy.

 

[kenny]

I don't think anything is broken.
I'd never want to limit, control or censor anyone here.

Rather, let everyone write whatever they want.
Then let everyone respond with whatever they want.

Readers have brains.
They will read everything and make up their own minds.
Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 11/9/2009 8:38:02 AM
Author: Gleam
For what it's worth, as a consumer, I always note the tag-lines (with the company name, say, White Flash or Diamonds by Lauren -- just random examples) and avoid the vendors who have representatives here who I feel post with undue negativity or abrasiveness.

I always find discussions that involve disagreements between professionals very interesting. On the other hand, how a businssman treats his colleagues speaks volumes about he also runs his business. And I'd rather not deal with someone who can't show others in his industry some basic respect.

Great point Gleam.
If all the vendors, or experts here felt the same way it would surely lessen the value of the forum for all.
Speaking as one who has a different opinion, it's frequently a challenge simply to express a different opinion here, although the views I state are very much in line with many in the trade here in New York. Made more difficult when consumers who've learned what they understand about diamonds here on PS- some of these folks seem to find this to be extremely confrontational

Dave- I don't know if you were referring to me- but I don't think there will ever be a consensus in our industry about what constitutes the best cut stone- either in rounds, or fancy shapes.
Although I take a lot of heat for expressing an viewpoint different from the masses on PS, I am grateful for the opportunity to do so.

 

[bgray]

Date: 11/9/2009 11:32:55 AM
Author: kenny
I don't think anything is broken.

I'd never want to limit, control or censor anyone here.


Rather, let everyone write whatever they want.

Then let everyone respond with whatever they want.


Readers have brains.

They will read everything and make up their own minds.

Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

Agreed--no need for a big brother monitor. I find there are a lot of posters who can be rather self-righteous bullies or cheerleaders for vendors. I find that distasteful. Posters have every right to disagree with a "professional" if they so desire. Degrees and certifications are not always a guarantee of knowledge or expertise. I.e. not all doctors are good at doctoring. Degrees and certifications are also no guarantee of bias or lack therof.

 

[Karl_K]

Date: 11/9/2009 11:18:38 AM
Author: Hest88
Right, but OTOH, although there are *very* knowlegeable consumers here, I've also seen consumers leap in and try to argue with a professional as if they have equal experience. I find that just as cringe-worthy.

I see it differently since from day one I have been challenging them and am now one :}
Actually *some* consumers know more in some areas than many if not most professionals.
Personally I think it is great that professionals get challenged that is how advances are made.
That is what makes PS PS.
Many of the things we often discuss and understand are the results of consumers challenging professionals to take it to the next level.
Personally I loved it as a consumer and still will as a trade member when consumers challenge me to explain something.

 

[Todd Gray]

"In every country where man is free to think and to speak, differences of opinion will arise from difference of perception, and the imperfection of reason; but these differences when permitted, as in this happy country, to purify themselves by free discussion, are but as passing clouds overspreading our land transiently and leaving our horizon more bright and serene."

- Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Waring, 1801.

 

[Lorelei]

As long as differences of opinion are expressed respectfully and basic manners are kept ( no name calling, vulgar language or personal attacks etc) then thats the way to go I believe.

 

[Karl_K]

Date: 11/9/2009 1:33:41 PM
Author: Todd Gray
''In every country where man is free to think and to speak, differences of opinion will arise from difference of perception, and the imperfection of reason; but these differences when permitted, as in this happy country, to purify themselves by free discussion, are but as passing clouds overspreading our land transiently and leaving our horizon more bright and serene.''


- Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Waring, 1801.

 

[oldminer]

I was not referring to anyone in particular with this new topic and don't want it taken in any hijacked direction, including another discussion of cut grading. I believe AGS has begun the lengthy process of consensus building and they were among the first to attempt this process. I applaud their current degree of success. New york dealers and sellers can disagree with AGS and many others about cut grading, but it is not up to any one set of dealers to make this decision. Many traditional sellers take pride in traditionalism over progress as if it was a goal in itself. They are free to disagree and to be vocal about it. We sort of expect vocal New Yorkers to speak up when they see issues. It is the way we are in the biggest cities.

The problem I have had with some advice that has been given is that it is not nearly majority held opinion, but far more minority opinion being given, to relatively novice consumers. Then other experts feel compelled step in to alter the comments and advice previously provided in order to "correct" or bring more mainstream advice to the consumer. What this creates is a degree of confusion for many readers who may think all advice given by "experts" is of equal merit. It simply is not all the time. Some minority advice is clearly self-serving and folks who give it often take the heat for it. That's fair game on a site like this.

I am a strong believer in seeing the diamond with one's own eyes to make the final choice, but advising folks to take the dealer's word for it, or to rely on inconsistent photos and romantic sales pitches is not the same as providing what objective facts can be provided. Yes, objective facts are limited and best used for screening tools. Ultimately the eyes and the mind decide, but as experts we ought to make sure that consumers get the full range of advice best suited to selecting a diamond on-line before they can see it in person. We have many great tools for this and we should support this process rather let others imply it is not useful or does not work. If all we had were consumers coming into stores to shop physically, the game could be played differently, but Pricescope is nearly all an on-line experience, isn't it?

Just requiring vendors to supply a set of photos for Pricescope advertising of diamonds in a "Pricescope standard" lighting environment would go a long way to making visual comparisons more practical, beneficial and possible. Then, these vendors could supply further, custom lit photos, too. However, the standard environment ones would make diamonds far more comparable to one another.

Learning how to deal with one another and handling our differences in a productive, civil manner will go a long way to keeping these important lines of communication open. I'd bet the majority of diamond dealers have never seen Pricescope and have no concept of what is happening to their business. The ostrich with its head buried in the sand does little to protect the rest of the ostrich.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 11/9/2009 1:48:25 PM
Author: oldminer



Just requiring vendors to supply a set of photos for Pricescope advertising of diamonds in a ''Pricescope standard'' lighting environment would go a long way to making visual comparisons more practical, beneficial and possible. Then, these vendors could supply further, custom lit photos, too. However, the standard environment ones would make diamonds far more comparable to one another.

quote]
Danger Will Robinson, Danger!

Who sets the standards, who enforces them? You are making the assumption that we all have the capability to just "do" this if it is mandated.

I have spent thousands in my search for getting decent photos of diamonds, and do not feel that I have achieved it yet. I do not want to be told however that I now must spend thousands more to do it in the yet to be determined, "Pricescope Standard".

I do not think that this is at all a viable option.

I want them to sparkle, someone else says that is not correct that we should show them lifeless so that the cut can be more easily determined, yet another wants a combination of the two, etc, etc.

At this time there is no "Pricescope Standard" lighting, and I am not sure it is possible to enact one as there is also no consensus of what it should be.

Wink

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 11/9/2009 1:48:25 PM
Author: oldminer
I was not referring to anyone in particular with this new topic and don''t want it taken in any hijacked direction, including another discussion of cut grading. I believe AGS has begun the lengthy process of consensus building and they were among the first to attempt this process. I applaud their current degree of success. New york dealers and sellers can disagree with AGS and many others about cut grading, but it is not up to any one set of dealers to make this decision. Dave, you state you don''t want to turn this into a discussion over cut grading, but it seems that''s the direction you''ve taken. I believe these differences are crux to the issue. You mention you don''t want to single anyone out- and I believe you ,but why use "New York Dealers'' as an example? You say it''s not up to these New York Dealers to make a decision about AGS, is it up to PS participants to "overrule" GIA? I have not seen any dealers suggesting AGS0 stones are less than desirable. Yet I''ve seen consumers saying GIA Ex cut grade stones they''ve never even seen to possess a "ring of death". I don;t blame consumers, they are repeating things they''ve learned here- but this is a viewpoint based on opinion. Then it''s presented as a fact. If you believe GIA is issuing EX cut grade to badly cut stones, by all means, say so. I do not as I believe GIA''s EX cut grade was designed to take differing tastes into account
Many traditional sellers take pride in traditionalism over progress as if it was a goal in itself. They are free to disagree and to be vocal about it. We sort of expect vocal New Yorkers to speak up when they see issues. It is the way we are in the biggest cities.

The problem I have had with some advice that has been given is that it is not nearly majority held opinion, but far more minority opinion being given, to relatively novice consumers. From my perspective, the non majority opinions you are referring to recommend the use of ASET and other devices for measuring light return, as such use is not mainstream. Then other experts feel compelled step in to alter the comments and advice previously provided in order to ''correct'' or bring more mainstream advice to the consumer. What this creates is a degree of confusion for many readers who may think all advice given by ''experts'' is of equal merit. It simply is not all the time. Some minority advice is clearly self-serving and folks who give it often take the heat for it. That''s fair game on a site like this.

I am a strong believer in seeing the diamond with one''s own eyes to make the final choice, but advising folks to take the dealer''s word for it, or to rely on inconsistent photos and romantic sales pitches is not the same as providing what objective facts can be provided. Yes, objective facts are limited and best used for screening tools. Ultimately the eyes and the mind decide, but as experts we ought to make sure that consumers get the full range of advice best suited to selecting a diamond on-line before they can see it in person. We have many great tools for this and we should support this process rather let others imply it is not useful or does not work. If all we had were consumers coming into stores to shop physically, the game could be played differently, but Pricescope is nearly all an on-line experience, isn''t it? No- I''ve seen many posts by consumers wanting advice about shopping at a store

Just requiring vendors to supply a set of photos for Pricescope advertising of diamonds in a ''Pricescope standard'' lighting environment would go a long way to making visual comparisons more practical, beneficial and possible. Then, these vendors could supply further, custom lit photos, too. However, the standard environment ones would make diamonds far more comparable to one another.
It would be great Dave- but it''s not going to happen, for a lot of reasons

Learning how to deal with one another and handling our differences in a productive, civil manner will go a long way to keeping these important lines of communication open. I''d bet the majority of diamond dealers have never seen Pricescope and have no concept of what is happening to their business. The ostrich with its head buried in the sand does little to protect the rest of the ostrich.

I agree that it''s very important to treat everyone here with respect.
Generalization is likely contrary to that goal.

All due respect Dave- I know you did not mean this in any negative way- but the statement below is written in such a manner as to make it seem the AGA Cut classes are a group of parameters accepted by experts, and the trade at large- they are not.

The AGA Cut Class system makes sellers explain why their "beautiful" diamond does not meet certain parameters.

Such a statement makes it seem that anyone disagreeing with your chart needs to justify why.
Yes, that will draw a reaction from me, as I don''t agree with the use of the charts. And I feel that teaching consumers to use these charts does them a disservice.
It''s not about me being here trying to push anything we are selling or not.
I honestly believe consumers are better served hearing both sides of this. Some will want to go with numbers, ASET, charts and the things advocated here.
Others want a different way of looking at this- either because they feel differently about judging beauty, or they may want a diamond not well suited to being judged by these parameters at all ( like an Old mine Cushion for example)
Without question, criticizing the work of another ( you in this case) requires a gentle manner that I may not possess- NOW you can bring my being a New Yawka into it

.

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 11/9/2009 2:47:57 PM
Author: Wink
Danger Will Robinson, Danger!

Wink is showing his age.

Carefull...or I''ll get Mr. Smith after you...

 

[Todd Gray]

Date: 11/9/2009 4:24:48 PM
Author: Regular Guy

Date: 11/9/2009 2:47:57 PM

Author: Wink
Danger Will Robinson, Danger!

Wink is showing his age.
Carefull...or I''ll get Mr. Smith after you...

Darn! I understood the reference AND totally missed an opportunity to crack my buddy Wink on it! I must be getting old myself. I suppose the best that I can do at this point is to quote Regular Guy''s submission so that his comment about Wink''s age gets more exposure

P.S. Valerie just walked by, read this over my shoulder, smacked me upside the head and said "Be Nice to Wink!" - Ugh! Darn girls...

 

[Rockdiamond]

Hmmm...maybe I should just say
"Beam me up Scottie"

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 11/9/2009 4:36:42 PM
Author: Todd Gray

Date: 11/9/2009 4:24:48 PM
Author: Regular Guy

Date: 11/9/2009 2:47:57 PM

Author: Wink
Danger Will Robinson, Danger!

Wink is showing his age.
Carefull...or I''ll get Mr. Smith after you...

Darn! I understood the reference AND totally missed an opportunity to crack my buddy Wink on it! I must be getting old myself. I suppose the best that I can do at this point is to quote Regular Guy''s submission so that his comment about Wink''s age gets more exposure

P.S. Valerie just walked by, read this over my shoulder, smacked me upside the head and said ''Be Nice to Wink!'' - Ugh! Darn girls...

YAY Valerie! She is my heroine!

Wink

 

[Karl_K]

Date: 11/9/2009 4:36:42 PM
Author: Todd Gray
P.S. Valerie just walked by, read this over my shoulder, smacked me upside the head and said ''Be Nice to Wink!''

LOL
Is it mean that I actually laughed?
I think that Wink has a fan.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 11/9/2009 2:47:57 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 11/9/2009 1:48:25 PM

Danger Will Robinson, Danger!

I used to watch that show....

T''was a toddler.

 

[outatouch0]

As far as disagreements go and respecting each other I think this site far surpasses many other forums I have ever participated in where there is a great deal of room for opinion. Even when the ocassional claws do come out, my own included, it''s still pretty tame from what I have seen.
If it were so cut and dried there likely wouldn''t be a PS in the first place. The ability to get a wide range of perspectives is what these things are all about isn''t it? This IS the world wide web

afterall. Disagree away

What would the point of the forum be if one person posted something and 11 people followed with "ditto?"

As far as misleading a neophyte... If you made it hear then chances are you figured out you need more knowlege. Likely because B&M''s told you a bunch of stuff and you are skeptical. I don''t think many people check in their skeptiscim at the door when they got here.

my 2.5 cents

 

[Todd Gray]

Date: 11/10/2009 4:56:57 AM
Author: Karl_K

Date: 11/9/2009 4:36:42 PM

Author: Todd Gray

P.S. Valerie just walked by, read this over my shoulder, smacked me upside the head and said ''Be Nice to Wink!''

LOL
Is it mean that I actually laughed?
I think that Wink has a fan.

Yes, Valerie is a big fan of Wink and his wife! And there are days when Wink and I are tossing stuff back and forth at each other on the phone or via email when she truly wonders whether we''re actually friends because "you''re so mean to each other!" but hey, that''s how guys are! And besides, he started it!

 

[Karl_K]

Date: 11/10/2009 12:53:36 PM
Author: Todd Gray

Date: 11/10/2009 4:56:57 AM

Author: Karl_K

Date: 11/9/2009 4:36:42 PM


Author: Todd Gray


P.S. Valerie just walked by, read this over my shoulder, smacked me upside the head and said ''Be Nice to Wink!''

LOL

Is it mean that I actually laughed?

I think that Wink has a fan.

Yes, Valerie is a big fan of Wink and his wife! And there are days when Wink and I are tossing stuff back and forth at each other on the phone or via email when she truly wonders whether we''re actually friends because ''you''re so mean to each other!'' but hey, that''s how guys are! And besides, he started it!

No way Wink would never do that.