Database(s) of offical certificates + Price research

[YourNewFriend]

Hi All
I am new member here and as you can see from my name, I am also your new friend.
I am searching for offical certificates for all/any diamond available. Does something like this exsist? I don't know anything about diamonds and honestly I heard yesterday for GIA laboratory (database?) for the first time ever. I bookmarked the following link:

www2.gia.edu/reportcheck/index.cfm

But to get the data, the size requires along carats number (easy to get it - available on every single diamond description) also Report Number. Where do I get this? What Im asking about are offical certificates such as:

http://www.jamesallen.com/certs/2126604044CER.jpg

But is there available any database with really huge amounts of those certificates? So I look at it for just about any kind of diamond with any specifications.

Second question which I have is if is available any Analytics software for diamonds? I don't know diamonds well and sellers could ''trick'' me with prices very easily. But Im very aware of marketings tricks saying such as ''Regular Price'' and ''Price If You Buy Today''. Obviously first one is supposted to be higher than second one but I don't trust this. With such tricks sellers just want to do business as soon as possible. What I would like to do with Analytics software (or similar source) is to enter specifications + price and then I would get some feedback (perhaps based on varying of prices for the same diamond from the past) if this price is really as cheap as possible or as accurate as possible. Im not going to hide that Im interested mostly about lowest possible prices. Who isn't . For example what Im asking about I will show random example:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-Carat-Fancy-Blue-Brilliant-Round-Cut-Diamond-Loose-Gem-Stone-SI1-/330554138272?pt=Loose_Diamonds&hash=item4cf68fdea0

Here you can see the price $2995 and very few (definitely not all needed) specifications. Through which steps do I have to go to get an answer if is/was (''was'' is important too - price from the past would tell me a lot too) possible to get exactly the same diamond cheaper - anytime and anywhere? I don't think such software exsist but would you suggest any tutorial to find cheapest possible price for already known specifications? So in this particular example I would like to know if I could buy 1 carat blue loose diamond for lower price than $2995? Actually I would like to learn the process of investigating the lowest possible price online so just answering directly with potential lower price wouldn't help. Yes, research on google would be an option but only if I had time to check thousands of websites and using specifications in searchterm .

And third question that I have is if anyone already had experience with paying for purchased online diamond via ups/dhl/fedex? Is this suggestable? Direct bank transfer can be better solution but in our country are financial rules very strict. If sending larger amount of cash to the foreign country, you get police on your door right next day asking you what it was all about. I heard for many situations like that.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Hi New Friend!

As a vendor I can't comment on specific offerings of other vendors- but let's tackle a few general issues rampant on the internet today.
1) A 1.00ct natural fancy blue diamond as graded by GIA, not irradiated or otherwise treated to add or enhance color will cost over $100k today- unless it's VERY ugly ( very imperfect, dull, etc)
2) please be very careful when shopping to notice if a vendor has that GIA report- it will clarify these issues.
If there's someone offering a blue diamond for $3k- they need to be extremely up front about the fact it's been treated. Inadequate or misleading representation is a BIG problem in our industry today as there are people who will be mislead by this.

 

[kenny]

This seller claims the diamond is "natural", but what at does natural mean? . . .
There are TWO important diamond qualities that can be natural or not.
1. Material Origin - the diamond may be grown in a lab or mined from the earth (natural).
2. Color origin - the color itself could have been altered in a lab or come out of the ground that color (natural).

Even though the listing claims it is "natural" I guarantee the origin of that blue color is NOT nature.
It is the result of processing by man; one clue is the color itself and the other is the price.
The price is way way way too low for a real 1-ct., fully natural blue diamond.

Only a scumbag vendor would claim a treated diamond to be natural.
I would not do business with her/him.

There is nothing inherently wrong with diamonds that are treated (except that people with experience can usually spot treated color) but deception by vendors is not acceptable IMHO.

If by chance you are interested in getting a real fully natural blue diamond and your budget is $3,000 here below is a lovely one.
Unfortunately for $2,375 you only get 0.05 ct. instead of 1-ct for treated color, but that's the reality of these rare and natural diamonds.
While its strongest color is Blue, it has a secondary color modifier of Gray.
If it was pure Blue it would be considerably more expensive.
But at least you know it is natural material and the color origin is also natural because GIA has graded it so.
GIA is the most respected lab for grading natural fancy colored diamonds.

This vendor, Liebish & Co., is trustworthy too.
Over the years I have bought 20 GIA-graded fancy colored diamonds from them.
They have a good return policy too if you are not happy, and I have had no trouble getting refunds from them.
After 20 purchases I have found the color of the diamonds in their pictures to be very accurate.

http://www.fancydiamonds.net/view_diamonds/2648.htm



ALSO - you asked about price research.
FCDs (fancy colored diamonds) are very rare and the secondary modifying colors can dramatically change the price up or down, so (unlike with white diamonds) it is next to impossible to do comparison pricing.
Next, few vendors sell them and many of them do not even publish prices.
There is just very little FCD pricing data available.

Leibish has the largest inventory of FCDs I have ever seen and they DO publish prices so just surfing their site can give you a good idea of what colors and sizes fit in your budget.

Blue is one of the most expensive FCD colors, but for $3,000 you can get a much larger yellow diamond or one with a brownish hue modifier.
For example, this one is over a carat but is only $3,550:
http://www.fancydiamonds.net/view_diamonds/402.htm

 

[denverappraiser]

I’ll address another issue.

GIA is grading physical and gemological properties ONLY. Weight, dimensions, angles, color, etc. This is all very useful information but price is not one of them. They have no idea who owns what, what’s for sale and what the seller is asking for those that are. In fact, the vast majority of the stones included in the GIA database are not for sale at any price and GIA has no idea who owns them.

In terms of analytics, it’s similarly difficult. Not everyone agrees on what are the most desirable set of specs in order to match that against the price. The database here is a listing of stones from a dozen or so dealers and includes quite a bit of data that you can churn and it DOES include pricing but the 99% of the dealers out there who don’t advertise here can price however they wish and can promote their goods on whatever basis they choose. It’s easy enough to compare one stone here against another similar one but, if you’re shopping using a non-PS dealer it’s considerably more difficult to compare ‘apples to apples’. A good way to check prices is to look up comparable goods here and then use those prices as your benchmark when shopping elsewhere. Be aware that tiny details can make a BIG difference in this business and taking a partial or unreliable set of data and assuming that all else is equal is a setup for trouble, especially if you're aiming for a high end sort of stone.

 

[YourNewFriend]

Thank you for all 3 replies but...

1) Regarding collection/database of certificates

Im still trying to figure out where to get Report Numbers so I could check if GIA has certificates. The reason why I am searching for such collection is because local company who works with gold, diamonds and such materials is also willing to repurchase them. They asked me for certificate because they will provide me needed answers (if is even possible to repurchase it and what could be approximate price - ''approximate'' because its, I believe, not possible to state exact price with just viewing offical certificate without holding the diamond in hands) based on it. Then based on their feedback I would decide if I should buy it or not. I cannot judge GIA collection of certificates and how big (from aspect of number of certificates) it is because I don't yet know how to get Report Numbers - they require it on the site. So Im still searching for such collection.

Those certificate(s) on fancydiamonds.net are totally different comparing to the ones on GIA website. They are supposted to be done by GIA but they contain much less datas.

2) Lowest price research on given specifications

Kenny the number of your posts says that I should trust you instantly but on the other hand, did you see the reputation of this particular seller on ebay? There is no ranking on ebay, its just (along neutral) being satisfied (positive feedback) or due to whatever reason not being satisfied (negative feedback). As you know its not possible to buy feedback. Now looking at that particular seller; they have 100% positive feedback and 1378 satisfied clients at the time of writting this sentence of reply. To me, it doesn't sound so bad - the reputation of seller I mean. Therefore I don't know why he would lie. Buy don't understand me wrong, I appreciate, fully respect and trust your opinion.
You provided me two suggestions. I assume the only factor of giving those particular suggestions is price but how did you find those two diamonds? Manually via your bookmarked websites about diamonds or via some software or web based application? Perhaps following the steps on ''How To Find The Most Appropriate And Cheapest Diamond With Following X Factor'' tutorial?

Through denverappraiser's reply, I understand that the reason of your saying Kenny ''is next to impossible to do comparison pricing'' is that two diamonds that are supposted to be EXACTLY the same in specifications, can still vary due to not exactly the same measurement tools in laboratories, different knowledge of people etc. Yes? But not being possible to compare two prices to know which one is lower doesn't yet mean that it is also not possible (by some tutorial) to follow given steps to discover the lowest possible price for given specifications of relyable offical certificate (first question i asked). Comparing two prices and discovering lowest price are two different subjects.
Basically what I was asking is if there is any tool (or tutorial to follow) / application that could be used in research when I already have given specifications - whatever they are? Or is the only way to print certificate and then search manually on most of websites, on that topic, and write for example in ms office excel the url / price column and, when done, sort it in either decreasing or increasing order? Im interested about any tutorials / methods / suggestions / ''legal tricks'' about search for the price when you already have certificate with specifications (whatever they are) in front of you?

 

[denverappraiser]

Rapaport doesn’t address fancy colors at all but even what it does address doesn’t apply to your situation. It’s a 4 dimensional grid connecting clarity, color, weight, and shape with price. That’s useful under certain circumstances but it can be a terrible trap. Off-report information can and does have a tremendous affect and choosing a stone based on the greatest discount from Rap is a path that almost guarantees trouble. Again, the strategy is fairly straightforward.

1) Develop your requirements however you wish.
2) Use the database here to shop for comparable stones that meet those specs.
3) Use the offers from the dealers here as a benchmark for your shopping elsewhere.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Thank you for all 3 replies but...

1) Regarding collection/database of certificates

Im still trying to figure out where to get Report Numbers so I could check if GIA has certificates. The reason why I am searching for such collection is because local company who works with gold, diamonds and such materials is also willing to repurchase them. They asked me for certificate because they will provide me needed answers (if is even possible to repurchase it and what could be approximate price - ''approximate'' because its, I believe, not possible to state exact price with just viewing offical certificate without holding the diamond in hands) based on it. Then based on their feedback I would decide if I should buy it or not. I cannot judge GIA collection of certificates and how big (from aspect of number of certificates) it is because I don't yet know how to get Report Numbers - they require it on the site. So Im still searching for such collection.

Those certificate(s) on fancydiamonds.net are totally different comparing to the ones on GIA website. They are supposted to be done by GIA but they contain much less datas.

2) Lowest price research on given specifications

Kenny the number of your posts says that I should trust you instantly but on the other hand, did you see the reputation of this particular seller on ebay? There is no ranking on ebay, its just (along neutral) being satisfied (positive feedback) or due to whatever reason not being satisfied (negative feedback). As you know its not possible to buy feedback. Now looking at that particular seller; they have 100% positive feedback and 1378 satisfied clients at the time of writting this sentence of reply. To me, it doesn't sound so bad - the reputation of seller I mean. Therefore I don't know why he would lie. Buy don't understand me wrong, I appreciate, fully respect and trust your opinion.
You provided me two suggestions. I assume the only factor of giving those particular suggestions is price but how did you find those two diamonds? Manually via your bookmarked websites about diamonds or via some software or web based application? Perhaps following the steps on ''How To Find The Most Appropriate And Cheapest Diamond With Following X Factor'' tutorial?

Through denverappraiser's reply, I understand that the reason of your saying Kenny ''is next to impossible to do comparison pricing'' is that two diamonds that are supposted to be EXACTLY the same in specifications, can still vary due to not exactly the same measurement tools in laboratories, different knowledge of people etc. Yes? But not being possible to compare two prices to know which one is lower doesn't yet mean that it is also not possible (by some tutorial) to follow given steps to discover the lowest possible price for given specifications of relyable offical certificate (first question i asked). Comparing two prices and discovering lowest price are two different subjects.
Basically what I was asking is if there is any tool (or tutorial to follow) / application that could be used in research when I already have given specifications - whatever they are? Or is the only way to print certificate and then search manually on most of websites, on that topic, and write for example in ms office excel the url / price column and, when done, sort it in either decreasing or increasing order? Im interested about any tutorials / methods / suggestions / ''legal tricks'' about search for the price when you already have certificate with specifications (whatever they are) in front of you?

This brings up another good point, about eBay.
Again, I'm not speaking of any particular seller- but what I've noticed is that some sellers with very high feedback number may show "interesting" patterns.
For example- you may find that when you search through feedback, all the listings are private- so we can't see what they buyer bought.
Or, the seller seems to have sold hundreds of these "private" items to one individual.
My point is that it's important to make sure to place any eBay feedback in context- check it out.

 

[YourNewFriend]

Denver yes i have seen the Diamond Search web application on this website already but as far as I saw there are included only authorized sellers. I think single persons who need to sell something urgently are the ones where huge savings can be made.

 

[denverappraiser]

Denver yes i have seen the Diamond Search web application on this website already but as far as I saw there are included only authorized sellers. I think single persons who need to sell something urgently are the ones where huge savings can be made.

That's correct, the database here is populated exclusively by advertisers. Distressed and unsophisticated individual sellers is a tough market to reach and craigslist and ebay seem to be the most popular places to hang out hoping to find something. I outlined the process of deciding what's a comparitive bargain above and would add some qualifiers for misrepresentation of grading using 'certificates' and appraisals (this is a huge problem in the secondary market), personal security in terms of doing business with strangers who tend to be just as worried about doing business with you, and just the logistics of finding a seller who happens to have what you want. Most distressed private sellers only have 1 item for sale, they don't tend to wait around for long, and they don't post notifications when it's gone.

 

[kenny]

Those certificate(s) on fancydiamonds.net are totally different comparing to the ones on GIA website. They are supposted to be done by GIA but they contain much less datas.

No so.
Let me explain...
GIA offers two different grading reports for Fancy Colored Diamonds.
The full report, "Colored Diamond Grading Report" has much more data than their "Colored Diamond Identification and Origin Report".

Whoever submits an FCD to GIA can pick either report, but GIA only provides the longer report on diamonds that weigh 0.15 ct or more.

Read more about it here:

http://www.gia.edu/lab-reports-services/diamonds/diamond-reports/index.html

www.fancydiamonds.net carries many diamonds, some have the full GIA report, some the shorter GIA report, some have IGI reports and the least expensive have no report.

 

[kenny]

Kenny the number of your posts says that I should trust you instantly but on the other hand, did you see the reputation of this particular seller on ebay? There is no ranking on ebay, its just (along neutral) being satisfied (positive feedback) or due to whatever reason not being satisfied (negative feedback). As you know its not possible to buy feedback. Now looking at that particular seller; they have 100% positive feedback and 1378 satisfied clients at the time of writting this sentence of reply. To me, it doesn't sound so bad - the reputation of seller I mean. Therefore I don't know why he would lie. Buy don't understand me wrong, I appreciate, fully respect and trust your opinion.

My having 11,600 posts or this eBay seller having 1,378 satisfied clients carries less weight than you think, at least it should.
That blue did not get its color from nature.
The blue color came from treatment in a lab, and this is not disclosed.
Rather, the seller calls it a "natural" blue diamond.
That's lying - and apparently 1378 people are not terribly well informed. (Not surprising really)
Why would anyone spend near a million bucks on a fully natural 1 ct blue diamond if they could really get the same thing for $3,000?

You are entering a very specialized field of very rare and expensvie things, colored diamonds, something that many people want but few can afford.
This has created two markets, the informed and the uninformed - or the legit and the not so legit.
There are zillions of uninformed buyers for Jewlery TV and eBay and are happy with what they think is a fully natural diamond.
Their criteria for trust is feedback.
Not knowing any better they buy and give positive feedback and everyone is happy and the sad situation perpetuates itself.
It's like the blind lemurs leading the blind lemurs right off the cliff.
There are more fake Rolexes out there than real ones.
If you want to fall for "deals" like a $3,000 1 ct "natural" blue diamond, or a 1 ct $272 H-colored diamond on eBay, or a $21 Rolex so be it.
Enjoy.

But, you have stumbled onto Pricescope.
Many people here ARE informed, and we are trying to help you along.
The truth is $3,000 will not buy you 1 carat of fully natural blue diamond; it can buy you only 0.05 carat.

 

[denverappraiser]

It *IS* possible to buy feedback on ebay. It just takes a little bit of work. Sell 1000 postcards for $0.25 each and actually deliver them and you’ll get 1000 positive feedbacks for $250 invested (assuming a 100% loss. If you can actually make a profit on the deal it's just gravy). As advertising costs go, that's dirt cheap. Wait 6 months and there will be remarkably few clues that postcards are what was sold and there will be NO clues that the transactions were for a quarter each. Even if you have a few negatives in there they disappear from the formula after only a month. Change your name, sell 10 diamonds for a few hundred dollars each and actually deliver them, and you've got 1010 feedbacks with a 100% positive ratio and a 'top rated' banner. None of this is against the rules or is even unethical, the world needs good postcard sellers too, but it's very different from what I gather you are taking ebay's feedback scores to mean.

Have you asked your seller about origin of color? What did they have to say? As pointed out above it’s a big deal.

 

[WishfulThinkingOne]

MyNewFriend: I am sorry but this is what looks quite clearly from the picture as a heavily included(or non uniform colored) irradiated Green/Blue Diamond. It has that characteristic Blue/Green color which is a dead giveaway it is irradiated.
If a diamond had a GIA certificate the dealer would disclose it as it would make the diamond worth more, you don't go searching for report numbers the seller will have them and usually provide the certificate in the listing.
If you had any aspirations of "getting a deal" or "reselling" I think you have years of homework to do and even then you can't make any sort of business buying retail and trying to sell wholesale. There are ways to determine the market on fancy colored diamonds and consulting with experts looking at reputable vendors and comparing GIA certified stones but unfortunately you haven't receive great advice thus far. If you want a decent sampling of reputable colored diamond sellors make a new thread here in Rockytalky or in colored stones and ask for suggestions on vendors. This will at least give you an idea of the market for colored stones with proper grading reports.

Kenny: You can't call every dealer who doesn't disclose irradiation as a scumbag I am not surprised the credibility of your posts is being challenged. You reccomended they look at "your" dealer which is a reccomendation that wasn't asked for. Many dealers call anything that is real diamond and mined as Natural and do not disclose treatments. I don't agree with the lack of disclosure but it is quite common with uncerted diamonds. Buyer beware purchasing an uncerted diamond is usually very tricky.

DenverAppraiser: Your general advice doesn't apply here about buying feedback ratings. This dealer's feedback is extensive, it is on high value items and purchases by a large sampling of high transaction buyers. In short 3 minutes of looking at their feedback would tell you it certainly wasn't bought or created. That doesn't mean they are reputable colored diamond specialist but claming they bought their reputation is quite a stretch. Their niche is selling jewelry at the lower quality spectrum and it appears they are relatively successful at it. Also you can't go tell someone blindly to use the pricescope search for colored diamonds there isn't such a comparison tool like their is for colorless diamonds.

 

[denverappraiser]

MyNewFriend: IDenverAppraiser: Your general advice doesn't apply here about buying feedback ratings. This dealer's feedback is extensive, it is on high value items and purchases by a large sampling of high transaction buyers. In short 3 minutes of looking at their feedback would tell you it certainly wasn't bought or created. That doesn't mean they are reputable colored diamond specialist but claming they bought their reputation is quite a stretch. Their niche is selling jewelry at the lower quality spectrum and it appears they are relatively successful at it. Also you can't go tell someone blindly to use the pricescope search for colored diamonds there isn't such a comparison tool like their is for colorless diamonds.

I didn't say he bought his feedback. I was just responding to your comment that it can't be done.

When I look at his/her feedbacks for about 30 seconds, starting with the oldest, a fair number seem to be talking about happy purchases of CD's, not diamonds by the way. Again, I don't have a great problem with this but it's curiously different from your observation through a longer and surely more thorough investigation. Personally I put rather little stake in ebay's feedback system as a way of vetting suppliers for exactly this sort of reason but it's your choice. Your experience is apparently different. I'm not picking on your dealer, I'm picking on Ebay (Kenny is picking on your dealer)

I gave a rather specific if slighlty generic procedure for finding comps and comparing prices on things. I'll repost it here for the benefit of others who are trying to follow this:

Rapaport doesn’t address fancy colors at all but even what it does address doesn’t apply to your situation. It’s a 4 dimensional grid connecting clarity, color, weight, and shape with price. That’s useful under certain circumstances but it can be a terrible trap. Off-report information can and does have a tremendous affect and choosing a stone based on the greatest discount from Rap is a path that almost guaranteed trouble. Again, the strategy is fairly straightforward.

1) Develop your requirements however you wish.
2) Use the database here to shop for comparable stones that meet those specs.
3) Use the offers from the dealers here as a benchmark for your shopping elsewhere.

I stand by that as sound advice but by all means add to the 'use the database' advise that you can and should call call or email dealers that you find interesting and ask them about things they might sell that aren't listed in their advertising. Nearly all of them can get whatever you want. If you don't like personal contact, a number of the dealers like the one Kenny linked to actually have a fair number of colored diamonds with prices listed online although most of the ones on that particular dealer are going to be natural colored stones and not appropriate comps for what you're doing. As far as I know they don't sell treated stones at all but it's free to ask.

It sounds like you're happy with the guys you've got and you're happy with the stone in question. That leaves me curious what you're asking about.

By the way, selling treated diamonds without full disclosure in the United States is an FTC violation. It makes not a bit of difference if a lot of other dealers do it. It's illegal.

 

[WishfulThinkingOne]

I didn't say he bought his feedback. I was just responding to your comment that it can't be done.

It wasn't my comment it was the original posters I have posted exactly once, we are not the same person!

When I look at his/her feedbacks for about 30 seconds, starting with the oldest, a fair number seem to be talking about happy purchases of CD's, not diamonds by the way. Again, I don't have a great problem with this but it's curiously different from your observation through a longer and surely more thorough investigation.

A longer investigation being a very quick rundown of the sellers most recent transactions over the last year indicating over a dozen high value items and all jewelery. I looked at the last 6 months which is much more important and you can actually see the listings of sold items.

Personally I put rather little stake in ebay's feedback system as a way of vetting suppliers for exactly this sort of reason but it's your choice.

No my experience is to leave an open mind for a fair assessment of the Ebay vendor based on the feedback system of valid transactions.

I look for a good sampling of similar high value items being sold within the last 3- 6 months to a a variety of members with large numbers of feedback. This seller satisfied my criteria.

Personally I would not buy high value jewelry from Ebay I see better value with some of the PS vendors who sell colorless diamonds here. But we aren't talking about my experience this is about the original poster who may have been scared off by the less than helpful responses in this thread.

I gave a rather specific if slighlty generic procedure for finding comps and comparing prices on things. I'll repost it here for the benefit of others who are trying to follow this.

Once again I fail to see how this will help the original poster, your general procedure can simply not be applied in this case.

-There is no database for colored stones here
-Noone has made suggestions of websites that offer fancy colored diamonds other than Kenny
-You have not even helped this poster understand that the price of most FCDs is still primarily influenced by what GIA would assign in its grading report.
-What offers from dealers here? That is just a blind reccomendation of pricescope dealers not really a helpful procedure either as most do not even sell FCDs.

By the way, selling treated diamonds without full disclosure in the United States is an FTC violation. It makes not a bit of difference if a lot of other dealers do it. It's illegal.

The FTC's own report stated that only 5% of dealers correctly identified the treatments in Ruby and Sapphires they were selling. Illegal or not there is no easy to find criminal code section for this and certainly very little if any enforcement. Even the FTC's own website directs consumers to the BBB and JVC two organizations with very little authority. I won't automatically condemn any business based on weakly enforced FTC guidelines.

 

[denverappraiser]

Sorry to confuse you with the OP. I agree, you’re a new participant. Welcome to Pricescope.

The FTC’s lack of enforcement and their general lack of teeth has no bearing either. It’s illegal to sell without disclosure, and apparently you know it. Origin of color in a fancy an enormous value characteristic. The OP is overtly looking for a ‘deal’ and this is the #1 issue in pricing of FCD’s. Overlooking it is like selling a car and neglecting to mention the year of manufacture or if it’s running. It is completely impossible to identify a ‘bargain’ without it. We don’t know if the OP has even asked for a more complete description but it clearly is not included in the advertisement shown. Kenny is almost certainly correct that the subject stone is likely to be treated for at least color. The seller almost certainly knows this, and the fact that they don’t mention it in their description is NOT a good sign. Are you disagreeing with this?

I’m definitely NOT blanketly endorsing the PS advertisers by my advice. If you’re familiar with my writings here you’ll find that I’m actually highly supportive of local jewelers for exactly this sort of purchase. Moreso than nearly any other regular poster so I'm a little surprised to be called on that. I guess I wasn't clear in my writing. PS provides a large database of diamonds, including prices, which is exactly what the OP was looking for although I agree that fancys are not listed. FWIW, the very first stone the OP asked about was not a fancy color and lots of comparable goods are listed in the database. It’s worth pointing out here that it’s a violation of PS rules for me to mention any OTHER public databases in this forum. Some of the PS advertisers actually are fairly big players on ebay as well and there are plenty of excellent jewelers who don't promote themselves in either place. It's not the form of advertising that makes a good dealer good. Each deal and each dealer needs to be able to stand or fall on their own merits.

High positive ebay feedback is just not that big a deal and it's not that hard to obtain. Nearly every serious ebay seller has 98%+ and although I would look into WHY someone got under 100% if that were the case, that's not an automatic deal killer for me. I think it's unfair to SELLERS to assume that all bad experiences are their fault. It's not even a serious red flag unless it's below, say, 96%. What I look for is patterns and there's sometimes good things to be learned in what people actually say in the comments. Our example seller has 98 transactions that went into their ratio and an 11 year history. That's a pretty good record but this means that if a single person had a complaint, even an unreasonable one, they would have had a lower score, at least for a while. I would be warning about holding this against them just as I'm warning against calling the 100% as a particularly storng endorsement.

How do YOU recommend a shopper find competitive offers for similar merchandise to what is being discussed? Since the seller doesn’t provide a complete description, how should they even decide even what the item is? You do agree that the details matter don’t you?

Again, welcome to Pricescope.

 

[WishfulThinkingOne]

Sorry to confuse you with the OP. I agree, you’re a new participant. Welcome to Pricescope.

Glad that was cleared up.

The FTC’s lack of enforcement and their general lack of teeth has no bearing either. It’s illegal to sell without disclosure, and apparently you know it.

Define illegal and in what jurisdiction. Is their an explicit Federal or State law where non disclosure of treaments in gem stones is a criminal offence? Any case law to support this?

Origin of color in a fancy an enormous value characteristic. The OP is overtly looking for a ‘deal’ and this is the #1 issue in pricing of FCD’s. Overlooking it is like selling a car and neglecting to mention the year of manufacture or if it’s running. It is completely impossible to identify a ‘bargain’ without it.

Agreed I stressed that a proper grading report was required and that GIA grading sets the price standard. Uncerted stones are very difficult to put a value on, something as an appraiser you are probably very familiar with.

We don’t know if the OP has even asked for a more complete description but it clearly is not included in the advertisement shown. Kenny is almost certainly correct that the subject stone is likely to be treated for at least color.

I said the same thing its got the signature of being irradiated and as such its value is significantly diminished.

The seller almost certainly knows this, and the fact that they don’t mention it in their description is NOT a good sign. Are you disagreeing with this?

I find many sellers just plain uniformed or sloppy both in B&M and online. That doesn't make them scumbags or carrying on an illegal business. Its not a good sign but it doesn't necessarily indicate deliberate fraud or deception.

The jewelry business is one of imperfect information, if I held all jewelers to my preferred standard of education all would fail. In one way or another virtually every jeweler fails to disclose some aspect which may be materially significant to some buyers.

I’m definitely NOT blanketly endorsing the PS advertisers by my advice. If you’re familiar with my writings here you’ll find that I’m actually highly supportive of local jewelers for exactly this sort of purchase.

I'll have to take your word for it feel free to link to any posts where you are supportive of local jewelers or of ebay sellers for this kind of item. I have not read your history of posts and the PS search doesn't work that well.

I guess I wasn't clear in my writing. PS provides a large database of diamonds, including prices, which is exactly what the OP was looking for although I agree that fancys are not listed.

Your general advice seems good for colorless diamonds but will not help someone looking for a FCD for that they need referrals to those who specialize in FCD something which is lacking here. That is why I suggested they open a new thread asking for FCD suppliers if that is truly what they are looking for.

High positive ebay feedback is just not that big a deal and it's not that hard to obtain. Nearly every serious ebay seller has 98%+ and although I would look into WHY someone got under 100% if that were the case, that's not an automatic deal killer for me. I think it's unfair to SELLERS to assume that all bad experiences are their fault. It's not even a serious red flag unless it's below, say, 96%. What I look for is patterns and there's sometimes good things to be learned in what people actually say in the comments. Our example seller has 98 transactions that went into their ratio and an 11 year history. That's a pretty good record but this means that if a single person had a complaint, even an unreasonable one, they would have had a lower score, at least for a while. I would be warning about holding this against them just as I'm warning against calling the 100% as a particularly storng endorsement.

Just like how one would evaluate an online or B&M jeweler a potential buyer should look for similar transactions, good referrals and recent feedback. It requires a little more time but looking at the actual items sold is crucial in deciding if the feedback is valid. A superifical estimate based on feedback % or looking at the oldest transactions from 2002 (like you indicated above) is prone to give misleading results.

How do YOU recommend a shopper find competitive offers for similar merchandise to what is being discussed? Since the seller doesn’t provide a complete description, how should they even decide even what the item is? You do agree that the details matter don’t you?

For FCDs I would be looking for as many dealers with published prices as possible. I would try to do an apples to apples comparison where possible (this requires a standardized grading report) it won't be as precise as for colorless diamonds but still possible with some experience.

The FCD market unfortunately leaves the majority buyers very uninformed and thus the advantage is clearly with the seller who knows what their cost is on the items. The opportunity for a dealer to obtain a higher margin and the time it takes to sell more niche items appears greater in in the FCD market and thus I'd expect to find less deals.

Again, welcome to Pricescope.

Thank-you

 

[denverappraiser]

I didn’t call him a scumbag. Just like my confusing you for YourNewFriend, you’re confusing me for Kenny. I haven’t said anything at all about this dealer or their products other than to point out that, years ago, they seem to have been selling CD’s and to agree that they’ve got a pretty good feedback record.

FTC problems fall under the UCC and the ‘material misrepresentation’ rules. It’s not a criminal matter and it’s handled by the states, not the feds. Different states handle the guidelines differently but the recourse here in Colorado is to undo the deal and reverse the credit card transaction. By the way, it’s also a violation of ebay’s rules to sell enhanced or treated diamonds without disclosure in the advertisement.

I generally agree with your suggestion but with a slightly different tack. Pick the dealer first and then the diamond, not the other way around. Use competitive offers for similar things to verify that they’re being reasonable and to beat them up on the price. If you find them being false or misleading, don’t just pass on the stone, pass on the dealer. As you point out, there are lots of competitors out there. This is 100% the opposite of what YourNewFriend is hoping to do by looking for a massive database of ‘certificates’ that can be filtered by specs and price. In the case of treated blues, rather few them have standardized grading reports. Assuming they aren’t clarity enhanced as well, GIA will agree to grade them, but in practice it’s unusual.

Just so we know who we’re talking to, are you a dealer? In particular, are you the dealer we’re talking about?

 

[WishfulThinkingOne]

I didn’t call him a scumbag. Just like my confusing you for YourNewFriend, you’re confusing me for Kenny.

Touche

FTC problems fall under the UCC and the ‘material misrepresentation’ rules. It’s not a criminal matter and it’s handled by the states, not the feds. Different states handle the guidelines differently but the recourse here in Colorado is to undo the deal and reverse the credit card transaction.

Which government body helps reverse the deal?

By the way, it’s also a violation of ebay’s rules to sell enhanced or treated diamonds without disclosure in the advertisement.

Too bad their enforcement of this rule is poor.

I generally agree with your suggestion but with a slightly different tack. Pick the dealer first and then the diamond, not the other way around.

We agree on this, the original poster who is unfortunately not replying in this thread may disagree with us and I hope they read and understand the difference in this strategy.

This is 100% the opposite of what YourNewFriend is hoping to do by looking for a massive database of ‘certificates’ that can be filtered by specs and price. In the case of treated blues, rather few them have standardized grading reports. Assuming they aren’t clarity enhanced as well, GIA will agree to grade them, but in practice, it’s unusual.

Is it unusual because the grading report will likely not come back favourable or increase the sale value? I wasn't aware GIA would grade irradiated stones good to know.

Just so we know who we’re talking to, are you a dealer? In particular, are you the dealer we’re talking about

Nope not a dealer, not a seller on ebay, not in the diamond trade at all, and I guess the amount of time I put into this thread it would appear otherwise.

My purpose for posting this was to give a fair shake to this seller and other ebay sellers and to help the OP, but it would appear judging from the OPs other thread I'm not sure the message is being received as well as we would like.

Tant Pis thanks for the discussion anyway hopefully it will help someone.

 

[kenny]

There have been many PS threads listing many vendors of FCDs.
Shall we start yet another one that will fall out of view in a few days?

Yes, I have a preferred vendor.
So would you if you had 20 FCD purchases and 8 returns; and were happy with every transaction.
My preference is based on legitimate personal experience that would be unusually extensive for white diamonds but may be unheard of for FCDs.
Perhaps this should hold some weight, but I think a high post count means nothing since anyone can post a lot.

Now, about that FCD price database ...
As a buyer of FCDs I'd LOVE to have such a tool, but I understand why it could never be very useful.

GIA's D-Z color grades for white diamonds are each quite close together, especially towards the D end.
In comparison, GIA's FCD color grades are wide enough to drive a truck through.
One reason is the D-Z scale is one-dimensional.
The FCD color grade scale is three-dimensional.

If you could assemble enough GIA-graded Fancy Intense Yellows at the edges of GIA's PURE Yellow range and compare them side by side you would be surprised they all got the same pure Yellow grade.
Some will have more Brown, some more Green, some more Grey, some more Orange, but not enough to bump them out of GIAs "PURE" Fancy Intense Yellow grade to become Brownish Yellow, Greenish Yellow, Greyish Yellow, or Orangish Yellow.

Next, a Yellow graded pure Yellow could have two of these hue modifiers, further complicating the matter.
Next the strength of the color can vary a great deal within one grade.
All these affect the price, even though, again, GIA gave them all the grade of Fancy Intense Yellow.
The "Pure" Fancy Intense Yellow with more Green will be priced higher than the one with more Brown - even from the same vendor on the same day.

In conclusion, barring grading booboos, all GIA Fs are similar enough to price compare, but GIA Fancy Intense Yellows (or any other color grade) are not.

So much for an FCD price database.
Sorry.

 

[denverappraiser]

Which government body helps reverse the deal?

In Colorado it's civil court. It may be different elsewhere. In practice, it's also usually part of the merchant credit card agreement that they have to agree to in order to accept credit cards and the first attack takes place there, not with the courts.

Is it unusual because the grading report will likely not come back favourable or increase the sale value?

Of course. GIA is not a free service after all. The vast majority of the time the reason is because GIA's client thinks it'll increase the sales price and/or the speed of the sale. It doesn't always work, of course, but that was the plan. Origin of color paper on a treated blue seems unlikely to do this.

 

[oldminer]

Although I am usually a little more careful about using undefined terms to describe a group of people, I think Kenny's assessment of dealers who knowingly offer blue diamonds as natural on ebay or elsewhere when they know these stones are irradiated, pressure cooked, fried, dyed, annealed, etc, are reasonably well categorized as being "scumbags". Ebay is chuck full of fraud whether it is diamonds or colored stones. Many large rubies and sapphires being offered as natural are actually man-made synthetics. Many of the genuine rubies are as much leaded glass and ruby material. Do they mention how much dye is in the beads being offered? It often comes off on the person who wears it the first time and the stones will rinse out almost without any natural color.

You can make some good comparisons of near colorless diamonds, especially round diamonds by looking at GIA paperwork. However, doing comparisons with the diamonds in front of you does no justice to what the entire issue with diamonds stems from, their most unusual hardness, beauty and reflectivity. In spite of being able to amass a large database of diamonds, one can't really commoditize them into comparable items or groups. Some things demand to be judged on individual merits and diamonds are one of those things.
Lots of intelligent generalizations can be made, but the final issue of which stone suits a particular buyer, remains off the techno grid.

 

[Rockdiamond]

I'm never ever in favor of calling people nasty names- however in spirit I completely agree with Dave ( Oldminer) and Kenny.
Sellers that know a diamond is treated- and not only purposefully withhold that info- but stress how their nuked piece of junk is actually a "natural" diamond are as low as you can go.
If they don't know it's treated, they're not a professional diamond dealer.

I'm honestly mad as hell about this type of deceptive behavior- as it reflects badly on our entire industry.
Same for sellers calling stones with EGL reports "certified". They know they are lying.
Neil- thanks for your input- I'm glad to know shenanigans like selling treated stones with no disclosure are against the law.
This forum is a phenomenal way of helping to educate readers against getting fooled- however far more people shopping for a diamond do not read this forum than do- so no matter how we try, people are still getting ripped off.

Dave also made a great point about eBay- if I take the time to look for more than 30 seconds, I'll find horrible misrepresentations. In many cases the bad seller somehow has 100% feedback.
I used to take time trying to figure out how there bad sellers are gaming the system- but it's really not worth the time.
Neil brought up some great ways for a seller to bolster feedback in a deceptive manner.
Bottom line is that eBay feedback- on it's own- is just about meaningless.
I'm saying this as a 100% feedback eBay seller with over 12 years on the site.

 

[WishfulThinkingOne]

Which government body helps reverse the deal?

In Colorado it's civil court. It may be different elsewhere. In practice, it's also usually part of the merchant credit card agreement that they have to agree to in order to accept credit cards and the first attack takes place there, not with the courts.

With or without an FTC guideline the procedure appears to be exactly the same, if an item is sold with an incorrect or misleading description than the buyer has the right to return the merchandise and claim a refund. For ebay this comes through paypal dispute.
I don't see how the FTC is helping in any possible way except in the case where it was taken to court where it might be ruled an illegal sale and reversed which is by no means a slam dunk even with the FTC guideline.

A vague ambiguous general term of Natural is not the same thing as an explicit statement that the diamond has no treatments and a natural color.

Does the FTC guideline take something that would certainly be a grey area for 'material misrepresentation' in other countries and make it black and white in the United States?

Any case law to support your opinion?

 

[WishfulThinkingOne]

There have been many PS threads listing many vendors of FCDs.
Shall we start yet another one that will fall out of view in a few days?

Yes, I have a preferred vendor.
So would you if you had 20 FCD purchases and 8 returns; and were happy with every transaction.
My preference is based on legitimate personal experience that would be unusually extensive for white diamonds but may be unheard of for FCDs.
Perhaps this should hold some weight, but I think a high post count means nothing since anyone can post a lot.

Now, about that FCD price database ...
As a buyer of FCDs I'd LOVE to have such a tool, but I understand why it could never be very useful.

GIA's D-Z color grades for white diamonds are each quite close together, especially towards the D end.
In comparison, GIA's FCD color grades are wide enough to drive a truck through.
One reason is the D-Z scale is one-dimensional.
The FCD color grade scale is three-dimensional.

If you could assemble enough GIA-graded Fancy Intense Yellows at the edges of GIA's PURE Yellow range and compare them side by side you would be surprised they all got the same pure Yellow grade.
Some will have more Brown, some more Green, some more Grey, some more Orange, but not enough to bump them out of GIAs "PURE" Fancy Intense Yellow grade to become Brownish Yellow, Greenish Yellow, Greyish Yellow, or Orangish Yellow.

Next, a Yellow graded pure Yellow could have two of these hue modifiers, further complicating the matter.
Next the strength of the color can vary a great deal within one grade.
All these affect the price, even though, again, GIA gave them all the grade of Fancy Intense Yellow.
The "Pure" Fancy Intense Yellow with more Green will be priced higher than the one with more Brown - even from the same vendor on the same day.

In conclusion, barring grading booboos, all GIA Fs are similar enough to price compare, but GIA Fancy Intense Yellows (or any other color grade) are not.

So much for an FCD price database.
Sorry.

Kenny,

You are clearly a FCD enthusiast, have purchased many, returned many, and are continuing to learn about the FCD market.
Bravo for that, your pictures are inspiring and clearly you get a lot of enjoyment out of your passion.

However even with all of your research and knowledge you seem to be advocating a defeatist attitude and the "Trust The Seller" mentality. I am surprised as this is a polar opposite to what you advocate in colorless diamond selection.

I am not a FCD buyer but a little bit of digging tells me that the margins on FCDs can be quite high in comparison to colorless stock and the prices for an apples to apples comparison (hard but not impossible to do especially for yellow diamonds) can vary dramaticially depending on who is selling it.

How do you do your research and ensure your favourite dealer is giving you a fair price on your next FCD purchase?