current state of antique rings/old cuts?

[rosskuhns]

Woops, my first post didn''t make it, silly hotel wireless! I''ll just cut to the chase here -

I''m looking at engagement rings and a few articles I read recommended looking at antique rings because they are cheaper - as the old cuts don''t have the modern sparkle, but they have beautiful work in the settings that is often not seen today, and they have that whole "antique" thing going for them

I must say I find something romantic about a ring from the ''30''s. Who knows what tales it could tell. (or would you want to know? hmmm)

So I''ve searched a dozen plus sites, some I found mentioned thru pricescope, and after looking at many, it looks to me- that the antiques aren''t really much of a bargain(?). i.e. a carat platinum is about equivolent pricing to a modern carat setting. And as I understand it, the old european and mine cuts will look smaller as the diamonds are basically deeper and not as wide. I will try to find a local jeweler who has some and compare next week.

To those in the industry, what is the current state of that market? some of the articles I read were a few years old, so was there a big retro surge in diamonds like so many other industries? prices have climbed? on the way back down? What is your opinion on the future of these antique rings? overblown? should I look for them only if I have my heart set on them? (and perhaps hers).

Your insight and opinion is requested and appreciated.

Ross

 

[diagem]

Date: 11/15/2008 12:02:01 AM
Author:rosskuhns

Woops, my first post didn''t make it, silly hotel wireless! I''ll just cut to the chase here -

Welcome.



I''m looking at engagement rings and a few articles I read recommended looking at antique rings because they are cheaper - as the old cuts don''t have the modern sparkle, but they have beautiful work in the settings that is often not seen today, and they have that whole ''antique'' thing going for them

Like in almost everything else..., price structure depends on many factors....
One difference..., Antique jewelry is not looked upon as "used" jewelry (as it was once...) anymore...



I must say I find something romantic about a ring from the ''30''s. Who knows what tales it could tell. (or would you want to know? hmmm)

Stories...., the right story can command premiums....

So I''ve searched a dozen plus sites, some I found mentioned thru pricescope, and after looking at many, it looks to me- that the antiques aren''t really much of a bargain(?). i.e. a carat platinum is about equivolent pricing to a modern carat setting. And as I understand it, the old european and mine cuts will look smaller as the diamonds are basically deeper and not as wide. I will try to find a local jeweler who has some and compare next week.

Some pieces I imagine you could find as bargains and some not..., since Antique Jewelry did become trendy (more fashionable) than when it was considered (Grandma''s jewelry)..., naturally the more people look for them.., the more valuable they become as they are harder to locate..., a good piece can definitely command a premium over its "modern" counterpart...
In Antique cuts there are basically no rules..., some look smaller than compared to modern cut and some dont..., one thing is almost certain, most will possess some sort of character that modern cuts dont..., and dont forget the story..., the (potential) story...

To those in the industry, what is the current state of that market? some of the articles I read were a few years old, so was there a big retro surge in diamonds like so many other industries? prices have climbed? on the way back down? What is your opinion on the future of these antique rings? overblown? should I look for them only if I have my heart set on them? (and perhaps hers).

"Those" pieces have a world of their own..., since they are limited so once a buyer finds a piece they realy like..., the price they pay will be calculated differently than other jewelry...

Some period jewelry are priced MUCH higher than others..., its a whole "limited" world out there....



Your insight and opinion is requested and appreciated.

Ross

 

[strmrdr]

If you are buying antique to save money you are into them for the wrong reason you have to buy them because you love them.
Otherwise you will be disappointed.

 

[Rhea]

Date: 11/15/2008 5:06:33 AM
Author: strmrdr
If you are buying antique to save money you are into them for the wrong reason you have to buy them because you love them.

Otherwise you will be disappointed.

I agree! It''s a very different look. Buy what you like, not what you think is a better value.

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 11/15/2008 5:06:33 AM
Author: strmrdr
If you are buying antique to save money you are into them for the wrong reason you have to buy them because you love them.

Otherwise you will be disappointed.

I absolutely agree with the above. Buy ‘em because you love ‘em. If you’re fishing for a ‘deal’, it is sometimes available on older stones but it has to do with the marketplace, not the rock itself.

‘New’ diamonds generally flow from the mine to the sorter to the cutter to the lab to the importer to the jeweler to you. This path can take anywhere from a few months to a few years and the costs are pretty constant throughout. It’s possible to find a cutter who will work a little cheaper or a jeweler who will work for less but the basic path is well worn and there’s not really all that much variation available. Each of these players is a professional at it, meaning their plan is to do the deal, take a bit of profit and have enough money left over to do the next one. Many have been doing it for generations.

With ‘used’ merchandise the path is quite different. It starts at a consumer and then has some immediate choices. Some will flow through an estate broker, pawnshop or private entrepreneur, while others will be sold or given directly by one end user to another. Often there will be repairs required, sometimes they will trade as part of a piece of jewelry while sometime they will be sold as loose stones. Most don’t involve lab documentation and grading reliability can be a serious concern. Even the marketing tends to be quite different because they trade more on the romance and less on the techy details that are so popular here. The result is a much more chaotic trading system and that leads to opportunities for both bargains and ripoffs.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[beaujolais]

Nice old stones are NOT cheaper.

My vintage OMC has more brilliance and fire than most modern cuts I''ve seen. Really.

 

[HeartingDiamonds]

I agree with all of the above.

As a matter of fact, I have seen many antique pieces sell for considerably more than their modern cut counterparts.

People do not but them because they are cheaper - they buy them because they love the look and see the beauty in them.

 

[neatfreak]

Agree with Strm too. Also wanted to add that I have seen some pretty shoddy workmanship on antique settings, so you really need to know what you are looking for to make sure you get a nice quality one.

 

[rosskuhns]

Ahh, thank you all! That is just what I was looking for. I needed to have it put it in perspective, so essentially, I''d need to know more about the whole industry to "play" in the antique arena with any feeling of thinking I made a good buy. (I''m not articulating very well here).

I own several and have been in the classic motorcycle world and it''s the same, you need to know the market and the bikes well enough to know what to buy. You see great deals sometimes, and people who walk in with limited knowledge and make some silly purchases.

Erica, I''ve looked and have enjoyed your posts and your site, I''ve loved your passion and presentation, you''re just work in a higher level of rings than my budget allows .

I''ll have to post at least one of my stories of looking online, there is some poor customer service out there.


Ross

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 11/15/2008 11:09:25 AM
Author: rosskuhns

I''ll have to post at least one of my stories of looking online, there is some poor customer service out there.



Ross

Oh yes there is. Luckily you have found us where there are thousands of reports of good and bad vendors for you to peruse. Just use the search box to see if the vendor you are considering generally has good or bad marks.

 

[HeartingDiamonds]

Date: 11/15/2008 11:09:25 AM
Author: rosskuhns
Erica, I''ve looked and have enjoyed your posts and your site, I''ve loved your passion and presentation, you''re just work in a higher level of rings than my budget allows .


I''ll have to post at least one of my stories of looking online, there is some poor customer service out there.



Ross

Actually, Grace here

- and thank you for the kind words. We do love what we do and Im happy it shows.

Ditto what Neatfreak said - there are many dogs out there and you gotta know what you are looking at and better yet, have a trusted antique jewelry appraiser on your side. Many variables come into play when looking at antique pieces, and the quality of the center diamond is just one (major) piece of the puzzle.

Much luck to you in your search!

 

[rosskuhns]

ooops, sorry Grace!
How ironic that''s the same thing that a seller just did to me (replied with a wrong name)

Ross

 

[iluvcarats]

When I was looking at stones, a comparable oec was around $70

 

[iluvcarats]

Date: 11/17/2008 10:41:42 PM
Author: iluvcarats
When I was looking at stones, a comparable oec was around $70

oops! I meant $70K

 

[HeartingDiamonds]

Hiya, ILuvCarats! What was priced $70k when you were looking (sorry if its obvious and I am just missing it!)?

Hiya John..err..Ross (couldn''t resist), found something that you liked yet?

 

[Love in Bloom]

I think antique cut diamonds are wonderful, but would personally be wary of purchasing an antique setting without some history or background information on it. In the even the setting has been sized or repaired, it could be mostly solder by the time it gets to you.

 

[kcoursolle]

I would buy what your girlfriend likes in terms of style and taste rather than what is going to be a good deal. There are many beautiful rings out there that are antiques, but I would focus on her style. If she likes modern or classic, then antiques aren''t right for her.

 

[HeartingDiamonds]

Date: 11/18/2008 11:50:22 PM
Author: Love in Bloom
I think antique cut diamonds are wonderful, but would personally be wary of purchasing an antique setting without some history or background information on it. In the even the setting has been sized or repaired, it could be mostly solder by the time it gets to you.

A vast majority of the antique pieces that you will find in the market will not have this information. At best, antique jewelers will be able to tell you how they came about acquiring a piece (thru an estate, private sale, etc) and where it came from. Provenance and history is typically only available for important and/or signed pieces. In addition, I could almost guarantee that any ring, if its about 100 years old, would have been sized at least once before, having been passed from one generation to the next.

The presence of solder in an antique piece is easily discernable by an appraiser and jeweler who has experience in antique jewelry.

Also agree with Kcoursolle. If antiques are not her style, no ring is cheap enough to warrant a purchase, no matter how beautiful it is to you.

Much luck!

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 11/18/2008 11:35:06 PM
Author: HeartingDiamonds
Hiya, ILuvCarats! What was priced $70k when you were looking (sorry if its obvious and I am just missing it!)?

Hiya John..err..Ross (couldn't resist), found something that you liked yet?

I am also curious.. - and how comparable are we talking..?

 

[LGK]

For what it's worth, a lot of us who adore antique stones find their look to be lovely and unique- they tend to run heavily towards large flashes of fire, and less towards small flashes of white light return, like many modern cuts do. Some, indeed, are badly cut by any standard and aren't beautiful, but the ones that are nicely proportioned can blow just about any other cut out of the water with their fire. The small tables and high crowns with large facets are the reason for the intense fire you get from a well-cut antique OEC or OMC/cushion. However, it really is a very particular look- you're trading off white light return for fire, and most old cuts are a bit more random looking and not perfectly symmetrical like an H&A stone. If your GF hasn't expressed a particular desire for an antique stone, you might want to go with a modern RB. Though if she is into antiques and history and so on, you might be able to assume she'd love one safely!

The workmanship on a well made antique setting is indeed unmatched by anybody other than Van Craeynest IMHO, though I think Green Lake Jewelers does the best engraving outside of antique pieces I've seen. Die struck, hand pierced and chased settings don't really exist outside of Van Craeynest's work and original antiques, from what I'm aware of. Frankly the antique originals are cheaper than the VC settings usually.

You can get the best of both worlds if you like- an antique setting with a new stone, too. A whole lot of antique rings aren't set with the original stone anyway. It can be easier to assemble a ring than find the perfect antique setting, with the perfect antique stone. I have a 1920s antique platinum filigree setting with a 1920s OEC, but I had to assemble it- the setting had a newer, replacement stone in it originally. We found it impossible to find an intact antique ring that fit what we wanted.

Price wise, although theoretically there's a bit of a discount off of antique cuts up to about the 3 carat range, that isn't always the case. They're popular, and not a lot of nice ones. Also, high color antique diamonds are in very, very short supply and command a premium- indeed, sometimes more than a comparable RB. Many of the higher colors were recut, or stayed within the family and have never been sold on the market. So, if you or your GF really wants a colorless stone, it could prove difficult to find and expensive when you do. The lower colored antique diamonds, however, can look singularly beautiful and the hint of color can look quite appropriate in an OEC, at least in my opinion; I own an M colored OEC, and in fact prefer that color... I wouldn't trade it for a D if I could! Whereas, an M colored RB wouldn't necessarily be to my taste.

You will also find that few OECs are GIA certed- many are uncerted or EGL. You will also need to shop with your eyes more than with a RB- like a fancy cut, an OEC really needs eyeballing in person, or by a trusted vendor. An independant appraiser is a great help when shopping for an antique stone too- just make sure you go with one who is familiar with antique diamonds. That way, you can make sure that uncerted or EGL antique stone is what it's supposed to be.

And indeed, there is rarely any info on the origin of the setting or diamond. Sometimes you get lucky and the dealer knows something, but rarely. Like Grace said, provenance is rare for the type of merchandise most of us would be shopping for. (That is, something to wear and enjoy, not put in a museum.)

Good luck shopping! I'd definitely reiterate what everyone else has said- get an antique diamond because it's what your GF wants, not because you want a deal... that's like getting a princess cut because they sell for less per carat than a round brilliant- a princess wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea, and could be an unwelcome surprise.