Cultural influence on diamond quality?

[niceice]

I''ve been in the diamond business since 1985 and most of us who have been in the business for any length of time will likely note that Asian buyers often seem to insist upon a combination of clarity and color which is on the high side of the scale, such as D/E color and VVS, Internally Flawless, or Flawless clarity. I always assumed it was a matter of precision, but during the course of a discussion with a colleague of mine who caters specifically to the Asian market I was told that the reason is actually because the quality of the diamond presented by a suitor is representative of his opinion of the purity of the bride?!?! And as such, tells her family his opinion of her purity.

Naturally my fiance Valerie''s first response to this was "so you think I''m only a VS-2?" and I was quick to counter with "E color honey, it''s an E color! And your earrings are D/E color!" [SI-1 clarity grade omitted from the earring reference for obvious reasons] which was responded to with only a long, very long, cold, hard stare... Actually it was more of a glare, a stone cold, piercing glare. And pointing out to Valerie that she is of Dutch descent and not Asian really didn''t seem to help. Nope, not at all

Naturally, over the weekend this concept resulted in quite an entertaining conversation with some of my friends (both in and out of the trade) regarding what this belief (?) tells our Asian friends about what we must think about the women in our culture - oh boy, what a head spinner. Note that in Korean culture, diamonds that exhibited fluorescence were once considered to be haunted... And diamonds with the number "4" are rarely sold in the Japanese market because "4" is representative of death... And many of our (traditional) Asian and Indian buyers specifically request white or gold jewelry boxes because black is considered to be bad luck... So the Quality = Purity equation seems possible.

So I''m wondering, really wondering, does anybody know if there is any validity in this statement or is my friend just trying to pull a fast one on me? I really thought this topic might make for an interesting poll, but even I "the master of opening Pandora''s box" hesitate to pose the questions for this one... Perhaps because the first question that came to mind was "If you were presenting a diamond to Pandora, what quality would it be?"

 

[Peepa]

I''m Korean and I''ve never heard of Koreans thinking diamonds might be haunted... but then again, I grew up here in the States and Koreans do have superstitions. If it IS true, it''s true among the older generation, not the young. I think among Koreans it''s split because for some women, they have to have a huge rock but for other Korean women, having a big stone is almost embarassing because it would cause too many stares.

 

[davinci]

My girlfriend is Korean and she definitely wants a big shiny rock... because all her married friends have big rocks. I don''t think that the other C''s are that important to her. She grew up here

I''m Taiwanese, but grew up here. In talking to my mom, seems like my parents generation clarity is very important... her diamond ring is 1.0 ct, I color, IF, cut on the diamond is clearly not that good (not symmetric, slightly dark center). So I get the sense from my mom that clarity is the most important factor, then color...

 

[niceice]

Date: 3/24/2008 2:28:21 PM
Author: Peepa
If it IS true, it's true among the older generation, not the young.

Thanks Peepa I agree, in fact, I think that most cultural superstitions exist more within older generations than in the young... I also believe that IF the Quality = Purity concept has ANY truth to it, that it is the result of early marketing campaigns created by DeBeers to target the Asian market and not something actually derivative of Asian culture because the concept of diamond engagement rings are a relatively new addition to the tradition of marriage in Asia (diamonds were introduced to the equation by DeBeers advertistments in Asia during the 1960's which often targeted cultural and family values in their marketing, and were often based on a loose interpretation of Confusianism) - diamonds have really only been a part of the engagement process here in the U.S. since the 1930's.

 

[LegacyGirl]

Hummmm if it''s true my very Asian boyfriend will have some explaining about my "purity" to his family hahaha. Maybe I will too since I picked out my diamond

 

[krisvrn]

I am from an asian family and I''ve never heard of this. I was raised in the US though so maybe that is why. I do know that size and fire of the diamond is very important to most Asians. I think smaller diamonds might be "looked" down upon. And it will reflect badly on the guy giving the stone, like he didn''t make enough $$ or something like that!

 

[LegacyGirl]

Date: 3/24/2008 2:55:59 PM
Author: LegacyGirl
Hummmm if it''s true my very Asian boyfriend will have some explaining about my ''purity'' to his family hahaha. Maybe I will too since I picked out my diamond

Oh oh did you see what I did there???

I meant fiancee....

Opps!

 

[Pandora II]

Date: 3/24/2008 2:12:52 PM
Author:niceice

'If you were presenting a diamond to Pandora, what quality would it be?'

Well, since you are asking...

I'd like either:

A 1.5ct F VS1 OEC

or

A 1.5ct H&A cognac rb in a chocolate colour with perfect saturation.

Wink has my address, so please just ship either one to him! Thanks!

 

[niceice]

Date: 3/24/2008 3:42:07 PM
Author: Pandora II

Date: 3/24/2008 2:12:52 PM
Author:niceice

''If you were presenting a diamond to Pandora, what quality would it be?''

Well, since you are asking...

I''d like either:

A 1.5ct F VS1 OEC

or

A 1.5ct H&A cognac rb in a chocolate colour with perfect saturation.

Wink has my address, so please just ship either one to him! Thanks!

I just fell completely off my chair cracking up

Yea, like I''m not already in enough trouble over this subject with my fiance, I can''t imagine how my buying a diamond for Pandora would go over!

 

[Pandora II]

Sorry!

I just couldn''t resist!

 

[cutey TT]

I am also Korean...and I also haven''t heard of the superstition re: diamonds with fluorescence. However, I was born and raised in the U.S. so it''s possible that (perhaps in the past) Koreans thought stones with this characteristic were haunted.

I do believe that asians gravitate towards stones with higher color and clarity because they equate those characteristics to higher quality. Not sure it has to do with purity of the bride, but more of a "mind clean" / status thing. For example, my mom has a G IF stone, but not so good cut.

I have heard from some jewelers that their asian customers will forego size for better color and clarity. I would agree to some degree, but I am seeing more and more of my asian girlfriends putting size first.

 

[Gemini85]

I don''t believe in that stuff, but a lot of ladies I know brag about it. I say their ring looks nice, and they reply with "It''s D IF," or at least "It''s E VVS1." The Asian jewelry stores are like that too. I asked for F/G SI1s, and they tell me they don''t carry those in stock and all they have are D/E and minimum VVS2. I specifically asked for something with flourescence and they say they do not carry flouro stones?

I can tell you, though, they don''t care too much about nice cuts. My friends and family have never even heard of diamonds showing H&A pattern until I showed them. I would be happier with a BIGGER F/SI1 as long as it was ideally cut. My friends have seen my jewelry, and they can''t tell it apart from any of the other D/E''s and IF''s they''ve seen.

 

[tberube]

Heh. Interesting, since it seems around here it''s the SIZE that seems to reflect how the man feels about his fiance...does he love you enough to spend three months salary and buy you the biggest rock of all your friends?

I wonder if there are any cultures that use cut quality as a form of expression?

 

[niceice]

Date: 3/24/2008 5:25:46 PM
Author: tberube
I wonder if there are any cultures that use cut quality as a form of expression?

If Price Scope could be considered a culture, then I think the answer is YES

As I recall, there was an article in one of the trade magazines a number of years back that referenced fluorescence being an issue in the Korean market, it involved some sort of buy back / exchange program run by DeBeers intended to maintain the validity of the market... Stuff that rattles about in the back of my brain.

 

[happyday]

Well, I guess I was pretty pure in the eyes of my Asian husband, as he proposed with a D-VVS2. HAHAHA!!!! Seriously though, I don''t believe he considered the cultural issue (we were both born in the states), but for him it was more of a perfectionist thing in his personality ... (hmmm ... Come to think of it, that might be an Asian thing, too

).

As far as the number four thing, I do know that even in Korean culture (not just in Japan) the number four is bad luck. I suppose it''s just up to you if you want a four represented in your engagment ring (number of diamonds, carat weight, etc.).

As a generalization, I believe Asian cultures have a lot of superstitions and symbolism, so this all wouldn''t surpise me. There also seems to be a lot of value placed on higher quality goods (whether a pair of shoes or a handbad), so again, I wouldn''t be surpised to find out that as a culture, higher quality diamonds are sought. BUT, ... what girl wouldn''t want a higher quality AND a LARGER stone. The question then becomes affordability?? Interesting topic!

 

[clop]

There was a stunning 1.64 F VS1 that was available that we had to pass up. 4 = death, 6 = road, so 1.64 = road of death or death all along the way

Not an auspicious way to start off an engagement. I am not superstitious at all, and would not avoid any 4s, but the 1.64 was a bit much. Granted the stone was priced at the very top of our budget...or I would have jumped on it

Not sure about the other customs etc; I grew up here. I have noticed among my fellow abc''s that size seems to be their main concern.

 

[lisa1.01fvs1]

I''m half-Korean and mom''s total and all I can say is she judges diamonds by what she sees and nothing else.

She has absolutely no interest in sarins, IS, hca, labs, grading or any of it!

Case in point, she recently bought me 1 cttw studs by IGI

and they are beautiful

I''m freaking out about the cut but she simply doesn''t care and feels they look good, have life in them and that is that.

So I think she has reminded me of the visceral magic that diamonds bring and to stop being so nerdy and academic all the time!

 

[Imdanny]

I''m 1/16 Chinese. I prefer E VVS2 if I''m being honest. Does that count?

 

[coatimundi_org]

I'm half Korean (mother) and half Dutch--for the most part, and I have a K VS1 rb, and a G VS1 oval, so I'm not of the D-FL variety.

My Korean mother is not into diamonds. Her engagement ring has been in a safe for the past 37 years! (this is prompting me to give her a call, ahem

heh heh) She is into gold, though, and is very picky. She'll only wear 24k. (don't know if that is cultural) She wears two plain gold bands.

None of my Korean cousins who are into diamonds have ever mentioned flourescence being the mark of a haunted stone. Funny though.

But yeah, that whole purity thing, like Niceice posted earlier, is marketing plain and simple. Especially considering that Japan, for example, didn't introduce engagement rings until the late 1960's. And look at how well De Beer's marketing has worked in the US! I do think, though, that that type of marketing may appeal to Asians specifically because of inherent traits of perfectionism. That's a tricky generalization, though, but I find it to be true for many on the Korean side of my family.

...But I love diamonds for their intrinsic properties, marketing
aside

 

[flower12]

Krisvurn made the point!!
>I do know that size and fire of the diamond is very important to most Asians. I think smaller diamonds might be "looked" down upon. And it will reflect badly on the guy giving the stone, like he didn't make enough $$ or something like that!

yes! something like that!!

hi! I'm Japanese and grow up over there .
this topic is very interesting!
I guess it's depends on Family or the class but from my experience.

> quality of the diamond presented by a suitor is representative of his opinion of the purity of the bride?!?! And as such, tells her family his opinion of her purity.

it's very important about 4c. most my friend has E-ring witch D/VVS or D/IF even the carat is small.
I guess avarage diamond ct's for an E-ring is around 0,6ct-1ct nowdays over there.
they tend to chose best color and charity than carat weight.also they loves brand diamond like harry .Tiffany etc.
my EX gave to me D/IF/ Excellent /0.8ct.

I am not sure why? maybe something luxuary items like diamond should be good Quality?or something conect with class system from old culuture or old fashion thinking?
it's sounds right as my culuture that suitor is representative of his opinion of the purity of the bride.
( I've been living US now ,so it's sounds strange now)

recently I noticed something at Japanese jewelry shop's site,
it has writing that ** we recommend to you to buy diamond witch better grad than D/IF/3ct **
this jewelry shop is very famous & popular in the Tokyo Japan.......but I got strange feeling when I read it.
they don't care about customer's budget??I never see any ad like it in any other country.

>the number "4" are rarely sold in the Japanese market because "4" is representative of death... And many of our (traditional) Asian and Indian buyers specifically request white or gold jewelry boxes because black is considered to be bad luck... So the Quality = Purity equation seems possible.

yes, *4* is representative of death. also *42( death)* *9( suffers)* there is no room # 42 at hospital

49 is more band because death and suffer......

but I'm OK and happy if my DH gave me IF/D/4.49ct!!

but I feel uncomfortable if my DH give me .49ct ....even thought it's ok with .3ct or 5ct.
in the Japan, black jewelry box is no problem at all. we have beautiful Traditional lacquer jewelry box for hundred years.
however not for E-ring or married ring. we have wooden box , white box . red color box for E-ring or married ring.

BTW, Black and white stripe is not good because it's decoration color of Funeral, on of my friend got E-ring with black box with white wrapping paper and black and white stripe ribbon

AND!!!! chrysanthemum witch Funeral flower from American FI and my frirend refused to even tougch the box because she think it's bad luck......
he had to change the all wrapping and re- propose all over again.
my DH gave me a chrysanthemum Bouquet long time ago and I didn't even put the Bouquet into my house

 

[Kissmark]

My husband is Japanese and we live in Japan right now. I''ve neverd heard that Japanese people don''t like diamonds with the number 4 because it sounds like death (which it does sound like but I dont think anyone would pass up a good diamond because of that). Here people focus on color and clarity more definitely. I hardly see anything below VS1. On the other hand cut is rarely mentioned

 

[Phoenix]

I havne't read through the entire thread (forgive me, I'm a bit tired and would like to go to bed now, it's late in S'pore) but will do so in the near future.

I'm Vietnamese by origin, lived in the UK for almost 20 yrs and have been living in Asia again for the past 12 1/2 years.

I must say to the OP that what you've been told, some of it is true but most of it is ***@@@!!!!***, LOL!!

It is true that Asians prefer the higher colour, ie. D E F and higher clarity, IF, VVS, but personally (and someone might stone me for this

) I think it is an education issue. For Gawd's sake, can the eye really tell the difference between IF/ VVS and VS, even SI clarity?!! I have a F VS stone and most of the time, all that anyone will say to me is "Wow, how big is that?" . As far as colour is concerned, true, some colour-sensitive souls like myself can tell the difference between a H/I to an E/F stone but again only at close examination. And can anyone (even Asians) be able to tell the colour from a distance, which is most of the time when people *admire* your diamond! Only the braviest of souls (close friends included) would ask you to remove your ring or earrings so that they can look at it close-up.

I sometimes wonder what the Asian fuss is all about? Maybe it's a mind-clean issue.

And the thing about "fluorescence and being haunted"? Maybe in the Korean culture, but honestly I've never heard such poppycock, at least not in the Asian cultures i am familiar with (getting stoned here, again!! LOL!!)

 

[autumngems]

Having lived in Japan for 5 years I can attest to not having seen any SI or lower clarity stones in their jewelry stores, which I visited weekly. They only carried the highest quality color and clarity stones. Of all my Japanese friends, I never saw one that had what I would call a average stone, they were all amazing. I cannot speak to the superstitions but I know they are very much into the quality factor.

 

[Imdanny]

getting stoned here, again!! LOL!!)

I think that's illegal even in Asian countries.

Sorry, sorry. I couldn't resist.

 

[niceice]

I find the numerical references to various beliefs and/or values to be of great interest since we often receive requests for diamonds of a specific weight, for which the preference seems to be AGS graded diamonds since they state the weight out to the third digit, such as 0.777

Part of the initial marketing campaign of Hearts & Arrows diamonds in the Asian market was the presence of the 8 Pointed Star which was promoted as being symbolic of the Buddhist calendar (if I recall correctly). This was always entertaining to me since the star pattern is merely a reflection of the pavilion main facets located on the underside of the diamond and thus it is merely part of the basic structural design of the diamond - or is it? Conspiracy theory: Ancient Buddhist Monks conspired with Marcel Tolkowsky (who perhaps was a Knight of the Templar) to embed the pattern of an eight pointed star deep within a diamond so that one day it may lead the Masons to the hidden treasure of Babylon - yea, yea, that''s it. Oh I almost forgot, the pattern of eight hearts is a key, a key which when projected upon a wall by way of a Projector-Vision-Gems-Fantasy-Scope (soon to be produced by Garry Holloway, the famous Aussie creator of cool tools) will open the hidden passageway embedded within the wall, IF and only IF you happen to own "the right diamond" which possesses the most perfect pattern of all... That''s all I know, that''s the clue, the entire clue. Now be off all of you, start buying diamonds, lots of diamonds, the right one is here somewhere and tremendous wealth and abundance shall befall whoever possesses "the one". I promise

Now on with the thread, all of this numerical reference to what should be avoided in diamond weight has me wondering what numbers might be sought after in terms of being considered fortunate...

 

[lisa1.01fvs1]

Date: 3/24/2008 2:12:52 PM
Author:niceice

I''ve been in the diamond business since 1985 and most of us who have been in the business for any length of time will likely note that Asian buyers often seem to insist upon a combination of clarity and color which is on the high side of the scale, such as D/E color and VVS, Internally Flawless, or Flawless clarity. I always assumed it was a matter of precision, but during the course of a discussion with a colleague of mine who caters specifically to the Asian market I was told that the reason is actually because the quality of the diamond presented by a suitor is representative of his opinion of the purity of the bride?!?! And as such, tells her family his opinion of her purity.

Naturally my fiance Valerie''s first response to this was ''so you think I''m only a VS-2?'' and I was quick to counter with ''E color honey, it''s an E color! And your earrings are D/E color!'' [SI-1 clarity grade omitted from the earring reference for obvious reasons] which was responded to with only a long, very long, cold, hard stare... Actually it was more of a glare, a stone cold, piercing glare. And pointing out to Valerie that she is of Dutch descent and not Asian really didn''t seem to help. Nope, not at all

Naturally, over the weekend this concept resulted in quite an entertaining conversation with some of my friends (both in and out of the trade) regarding what this belief (?) tells our Asian friends about what we must think about the women in our culture - oh boy, what a head spinner. Note that in Korean culture, diamonds that exhibited fluorescence were once considered to be haunted... And diamonds with the number ''4'' are rarely sold in the Japanese market because ''4'' is representative of death... And many of our (traditional) Asian and Indian buyers specifically request white or gold jewelry boxes because black is considered to be bad luck... So the Quality = Purity equation seems possible.

So I''m wondering, really wondering, does anybody know if there is any validity in this statement or is my friend just trying to pull a fast one on me? I really thought this topic might make for an interesting poll, but even I ''the master of opening Pandora''s box'' hesitate to pose the questions for this one... Perhaps because the first question that came to mind was ''If you were presenting a diamond to Pandora, what quality would it be?''

I guess I have only my half asian self to blame cause I picked out a F/VS2 - HA!

However (TMI time) I''ve only been married once (to current hubby) and he''s been there 3 times!

Guess he''d get a below an I2 or worse

 

[lisa1.01fvs1]

Date: 3/25/2008 3:52:03 AM
Author: coatimundi
I''m half Korean (mother) and half Dutch--for the most part, and I have a K VS1 rb, and a G VS1 oval, so I''m not of the D-FL variety.

Coati you''re my diamond sister and live in Venice right? I''m in Ventura but moving back to Los AL.

My dad was Russian/Austrian/Romanian.

 

[coatimundi_org]

Date: 3/25/2008 1:14:36 PM
Author: lisa1.01fvs1

Date: 3/25/2008 3:52:03 AM

Author: coatimundi

I'm half Korean (mother) and half Dutch--for the most part, and I have a K VS1 rb, and a G VS1 oval, so I'm not of the D-FL variety.

Coati you're my diamond sister and live in Venice right? I'm in Ventura but moving back to Los AL.


My dad was Russian/Austrian/Romanian.

Hello half Korean diamond sis! When are you moving back? And where? And yup, I'm in Venice

Coati

 

[SYC]

Date: 3/25/2008 12:20:30 PM
Author: niceice
I find the numerical references to various beliefs and/or values to be of great interest since we often receive requests for diamonds of a specific weight, for which the preference seems to be AGS graded diamonds since they state the weight out to the third digit, such as 0.777

Part of the initial marketing campaign of Hearts & Arrows diamonds in the Asian market was the presence of the 8 Pointed Star which was promoted as being symbolic of the Buddhist calendar (if I recall correctly). This was always entertaining to me since the star pattern is merely a reflection of the pavilion main facets located on the underside of the diamond and thus it is merely part of the basic structural design of the diamond - or is it? Conspiracy theory: Ancient Buddhist Monks conspired with Marcel Tolkowsky (who perhaps was a Knight of the Templar) to embed the pattern of an eight pointed star deep within a diamond so that one day it may lead the Masons to the hidden treasure of Babylon - yea, yea, that''s it. Oh I almost forgot, the pattern of eight hearts is a key, a key which when projected upon a wall by way of a Projector-Vision-Gems-Fantasy-Scope (soon to be produced by Garry Holloway, the famous Aussie creator of cool tools) will open the hidden passageway embedded within the wall, IF and only IF you happen to own ''the right diamond'' which possesses the most perfect pattern of all... That''s all I know, that''s the clue, the entire clue. Now be off all of you, start buying diamonds, lots of diamonds, the right one is here somewhere and tremendous wealth and abundance shall befall whoever possesses ''the one''. I promise

Now on with the thread, all of this numerical reference to what should be avoided in diamond weight has me wondering what numbers might be sought after in terms of being considered fortunate...

This thread was hilarious! I have never heard of the "purity of the bride" silliness, but just from family conversations (I''m Chinese American), it seems to me that high color/clarity are always preferred. Specifically, the D-F range, and certainly no lower than VS2 (preferably VS1 and above).

Re "good" numbers, at least in the Chinese language:
6, 8, and 9 are highly favored -- 6 = luck; 8 = prosperity; 9 = long life.
2 is also good, especially for bridal purposes
4 is VERY BAD. Don''t bother trying to sell a 4 carat diamond in China Actually, I imagine many women will throw over their superstitions for a 4 carat diamond, but the word for 4 in Chinese sounds just like the word for "death." Hence, the general avoidance of that number.

There are also certain combinations that might be especially good -- the best I can think of (within a not-too-crazy carat range) is 2.168 carats. The 2 is a good number for a married couple, then the 168 basically correlates to continuous prosperity. For any Cantonese readers -- yut lo fat? Sorry for the sloppy transliteration.

 

[magic2006]

SYC...

does these lucky / unlucky numbers also considered while buying smaller diamonds like 0.40 or 0.92 ct etc.