Connecticut elementary school shooting

[hawaiianorangetree]

I just read this in an article...

"Hand guns killed 52 people in Canada last year.

They killed 34 people in Switzerland, 21 in Sweden and 48 in Japan.

Hand guns killed 10,728 people in the United States last year."

And people still believe that gun control is not the answer? I'm not saying its going to solve all of the problems but it is going to make a huge difference. Other countries have the evidence to support this.

 

[JaneSmith]

Our culture must de-stigmatize mental illness. Greater access to medical care is needed.

Whilst I stand by this comment as a general truth, I retract it in regards to this incident. I should not jump to the conclusion that this person was mentally ill, and I did a disservice to those living with mental illness.
This person could have a brain tumor like Charles Whitman. This person could be completely sane but hold an ideology that accepts killing children as necessary like Anders Breivik.
This person did, however have access to two hand guns and a rifle. The USA needs much tighter gun laws.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States

 

[princessfeedme]

I just don't understand WHY??? Why shoot INNOCENT CHILDREN?

I must be jaded from all of the mass shootings we have here in America, but if the gunman had shot "only" his mom, people at his school, age range, or workplace, I would have understood. But why would he go to an elementary school and shoot victims who weren't connected to him in any way? Even though his mother worked there, what other possible motivation or connection could he have had to slaughter all of those beautiful innocent angels? Just absolute SENSELESSNESS. I will not accept mental illness as the sole scapegoat for this tragedy. GUN CONTROL need to be addressed by lawmakers. Enough is enough!!!

 

[FrekeChild]

I think there are lots of factors going into this. I just spoke to my husband about it (he studies crime), if there was some way to study this kind of crime and find predictors. He said not really. And this is what he does for a living.
Why not:
1. Really rare. Crimes like bank robberies, mugging, murder, domestic violence, car jacking, happen all of the time. Mass murders? An almost insignificant percentage of American lives are lost to mass murderers.
2. Risk factors. So far it seems as though almost all of these mass murders have some factors in common: white, male, middle-upper middle class, ostracized in social group (school), probably plays some kind of first person shooter video games, probably listens to a certain type of music, probably has some kind of mental health history, etc. So, how many millions of kids fit many/all of these criteria? Way, WAY too many to start trying to figure out which ones MIGHT be at risk for committing mass murder.

I personally think it has to do with a combination of societal things: America's entitled attitude, media coverage (FAME! Notoriety!), mental illness, SES (socio-economic status - got to have access to guns/weaponry!), and probably more...revenge? Personal vendetta?

I think we need to be studying James Holmes like he's a lab rat.

Well, I agree, Freke, it's like a needle in a haystack. BUT what if we decentralize the search? There are parents, neighbors, brothers, sisters, etc., who are sometimes aware that "something's off". Why don't we have a resource for them to turn to? There is no mental health safety net, is there? If there is, we need a PSA letting people know what that is.

Oh geez. "Something's off"? That's not going to do anything at all! You're talking adolescent-young adult males, who are hormonal and want to be left alone by their parents already, probably fight with their parents/siblings/etc because that's what teenagers/young adults DO, and guess what? You would just stigmatize young men who fit into the criteria I mentioned above. You haven't done anything to narrow it down.

My best friend, someone I have known for the past 15 years, fits all of the above criteria that I laid out. He even has a history of depression. Plays HALO, wears black/gray/red, listens to rock music, etc etc etc. And you know what? He wouldn't hurt a fly. I know this deep down in my core. But his father? Lets just say he's not someone who should ever be considered for "Father of the Year" award. And if his father got POed at my BFF, well, under your thoughts, my BFF would be under psych eval because "something's off" aka his dad is POed at him.

That's not the answer. It'd be the boy who cried wolf, but on a much bigger, more dangerous scale.

James Holmes, on the other hand, is interesting. He has a serious psychiatric history that seems like it left very little to the imagination. Obviously his psych provider was concerned, just not to the point where she felt it necessary to notify the authorities at the time. I'm sure she blames herself entirely. She probably could have prevented it, but she also could have only delayed it. What interests me about him is what he left for the police. Usually when you leave on a suicide mission, you don't really give a crap about what happens later (except for making the news perhaps?). But James, he wanted the authorities to come to his apartment. He set up booby traps for them to die in his apartment. And then when his weapon jammed, he ran away from the scene of the crime. He wanted to be different. Even more notorious perhaps? Did he fancy himself being a super villain from a movie/video game/book/comic book?

But, really, is institutionalization an answer? Probably not. I don't think it's something that should have been eradicated though. There are so many people out there who are so mentally unwell that they are a danger to themselves and to others (but in more obvious ways than we are talking about here).

I think this is more of a social issue, and it seems as though it's only getting worse instead of better. I think that there are a ton of societal issues that are cultivating this behavior, and society is incredibly hard to change.

Two in one week?!

 

[LaraOnline]

There are plenty of other weapons in this world besides guns. Take the guns away and people will use something else.

Don't mean to single you out House Cat, but this quote shows a common theory that guns are simply replaceable with another equally efficient weapon. I believe this theory is just not true.

Guns are REALLY GREAT at killing a lot of people very quickly, and from a relative distance. That's why they are a popular weapon. A knife, a club....a lot slower, very messy, requires a lot of exertation, you have to get very close and physical with the poor soul that is the recipient of your attention etc etc.

Personally I think that one's a no-brainer. Except maybe for ....poisoned blow-darts? hmmmm still think they'd be slower.

This is an incredibly sad topic, and it is incredible to me that human life is seemingly worth so little in the US that the only response so far from all these tragedies has been mealy-mouthed words.... how on earth can this revolting situation be stopped?

 

[LaraOnline]

The real issue behind this and other massacre events is the concept that "someone else" will take care of us and protect us from the occasional massively violent person.

Do I expect the children in school to be able to protect themselves. No. But, I do expect that the adults in that school should be able to protect the children.

Hi there Perry,

Well I guess you've hit the nail on the head here, with the original idea being that back in the day when every (male) body had their ancient and relatively primitive gun you might expect one pioneer to protect you against the other.

Or I guess you could just expect to be killed when your domestic argument goes wrong.

Australia's suicides and shootings were/are generally rural, family-related affairs that relate directly to access to guns (ie farming people have guns, so therefore they are much more likely to kill each other and themselves with guns).

But should we seriously expect primary school teachers to 'shoot to kill' to protect kids? Should schools have marksmen patrolling the halls?

It is crazy that the US has got to this point.... and yet on US reality tv shows I see glamour girls kitting up for a day of target shooting, even buying their own pink handguns.... totally bizarre to me....so praps in this 'kill or be killed' jungle US citizens should be training all 16 year old girls through the school system to shoot people...a kind of 'coming of age'.

The mind boggles.

 

[FrekeChild]

Almost 20 years ago, I was taking sociology and psychology courses in college. And the profs back then were saying that the kids coming up were going to be more violent, and that the trends were already showing. A large part of it was blamed on video games, which before they were entertainment for the masses, the same thing was used to train soldiers for combat. That always stuck in my mind. I am sure that all the rap culture and the zombie shows and the violent special-effects movies (with no plots but lots of violence) didn't help, either. There seem to be more people having problems with "voices," now, as well. But it's difficult to tell whether that's a savvy attorney or whether the person really has voices. I observed a patient in the psych ward who was there due to problems with The Voices coming back, but when all the staff left, he was on the phone telling his girlfriend how to sell the Harley and which beer to go get, and didn't appear to be at all psychotic.

Great. So we're combat training our kids with these idiotic video games. Swell. Our DS used to ask for these games when he was a teen and we never bought them or let him have them. DH believes that some things are just "metal pollution" and they are insidious and creep into your psyche. Some video games, slasher movies, violent movies, boxing, pretty much anything that breaks the mental barrier between you and hurting someone else. I think DH has a point.

Not this again! My parents never let me have video games either. But my husband had them and is an avid video gamer to this day (when he has time...). He doesn't enjoy first person shooters, but he does enjoy tactical games - where he has to shoot people so he can get to the castle or whatever.

Look, I grew up with the same stuff - violent video games (I suck at first person shooters), I love horror/drama/violent movies, I love rock music AND rap music. I've been exposed to MMA fighting, football, boxing, wrestling, rugby, etc.

I don't have voices. I'm pretty normal. Most people who have been exposed to all of that stuff are normal. If everyone who was exposed to all of that crap was automatically a killer, our entire population would have been killed off years ago.

So it's not that. It's a combination of things.

 

[Loves Vintage]

The sad truth is that nothing will change. People say enough is enough. There must be tighter gun control laws. But, nothing will change. And, sadly, this WILL happen again.

Americans seem to be exceptionally good at forgetting this sort of thing. And, we ARE desensitized to random shootings at this point. If only 2 people get shot in a mall, we barely notice. Six people killed in a Sikh Temple in Wisconsin got barely a notice. Yes, it was on the news, but no one discussed it at my work, it wasn't mentioned on any of the forums I visit, no one called to tell me they were devastated. Because they were not. It's the new normal, and far enough away, and remote enough, and random enough, that it was barely noticed. Only six lives taken there.

And, people in this country love their guns. They hold onto their semi-automatic weapons tightly. Except when they are safely locked away in their gun safes. Away from their children, they all proudly tell me when I ask. Give it a few days, and we will surely hear that this mother had her guns "safely locked away" as well.

Give it few more days, maybe a few weeks, and we will forget. Until it happens again.

 

[ksinger]

The sad truth is that nothing will change. People say enough is enough. There must be tighter gun control laws. But, nothing will change. And, sadly, this WILL happen again.

Americans seem to be exceptionally good at forgetting this sort of thing. And, we ARE desensitized to random shootings at this point. If only 2 people get shot in a mall, we barely notice. Six people killed in a Sikh Temple in Wisconsin got barely a notice. Yes, it was on the news, but no one discussed it at my work, it wasn't mentioned on any of the forums I visit, no one called to tell me they were devastated. Because they were not. It's the new normal, and far enough away, and remote enough, and random enough, that it was barely noticed. Only six lives taken there.

And, people in this country love their guns. They hold onto their semi-automatic weapons tightly. Except when they are safely locked away in their gun safes. Away from their children, they all proudly tell me when I ask. Give it a few days, and we will surely hear that this mother had her guns "safely locked away" as well.

Give it few more days, maybe a few weeks, and we will forget. Until it happens again.

Yes, people who own guns are evil (and probably stupid and selfish). Suspect and potential killers all.

I understand that emotions are running high right now, but this is not helpful and does not add to a genuine dialogue.

We need to discuss sensible and EFFECTIVE gun control measures, have a clear-eyed vision of the practical details of how those measures can be implemented, and how much it will cost in dollars and resources, not just knee-jerk react. We desperately need to discuss the culture and conditions (we've been in a state of war for over a decade now, and the economy is struggling, to name but a few issues) that are creating these overwhelmingly unhinged, intelligent, young white males with some sort of grudge and a penchant for violence. And we need to make a genuine commitment to improving access to mental health services. Lumping all gun owners together as A)THE PROBLEM and B) as unwilling to entertain sensible restrictions, is counterproductive.

While I'm saddened as everyone else by this tragedy, being totally devastated by every tragedy that is on the news on any given day, (including those on the other side of the globe, which of course we get to hear of in real time now also), and allowing ourselves to feel every tragedy as deeply as those to whom they are happening, we risk BECOMING our own tragedy of depression. I was 8 blocks from the Murrah Building in '95, and while we appreciated the solid emotional support of the country, we didn't expect people outside the community to feel the pain to the depth that we did. I wouldn't inflict that level of pain on anyone.

I've seen people become nearly hysterical in this forum about things happening on the other side of the globe - things beyond their reach or influence, and I'm like....WHY? At the end of the day have you done anything constructive by being hysterical or devastated, except ruining your own state of existence? By all means, if it galvanizes you to action, then great, but don't try to put some guilt trip on people who don't react exactly like you do.

 

[DNB]

And, someone in China, just yesterday attacked and slashed 22 children with a knife. The weapon isn't the issue, it's the person, what makes someone do it, not what weapon they use. Do a google search for knife attacks in China and you will get pages of hits. Guns aren't accessible/allowed but knives are. Knee jerk reactions to guns won't solve anything. This is not about guns.

As Washington DC proved for years, gun control laws do nothing. As for comparing a country like Australia and their gun laws, that's apples and oranges. Australia's population is smaller, more spread out and have no borders. The access points are highly controlled and there aren't as many of them.

Gun control laws keep guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens. Criminals by definition break laws.

 

[perry]

The sad truth is that nothing will change. People say enough is enough. There must be tighter gun control laws. But, nothing will change. And, sadly, this WILL happen again.

Americans seem to be exceptionally good at forgetting this sort of thing...... Give it few more days, maybe a few weeks, and we will forget. Until it happens again.

Actually, not just Americans. Many countries and cultures have their "ugly" side; and in most countries not only do the people but the government also hides the statistics that tell the truth about the "ugly" side.

Here in the US the statistics are in fact published for most things. Thus, you can see that in fact guns killed over 36,000 people in 2009 (the last official mortality data from the US government as of a few months ago). You can also see that most of those were suicides, followed by homicides, and even the number of justifiable homicides (self defense/law enforcement).

You can also see the number of people killed in auto accidents where alcohol was a factor, and falls too (the list of individual factors is counted is very long).

I am unaware of another country in the world which is so brutally honest about the reason people die.

Japan is often cited as an example of an industrialized society with a low violent death rate. But they exclude suicide from those numbers (the US does not). Japan has ritual suicide as part of its culture - and the numbers are very significant. The numbers get buried and can only be seen by detailed analysis of the published Japan statistics. Certain parts of the world have "honor" killings where someone who has (or could be) and embarrassment to the family is killed by the family; which are not reported as any unusual death.

The US is often criticized for its "infant mortality" rate. But no one else reports any fetus born into this world (even as a many week premie) who quickly dies as an "infant death." Most countries in the world do not start to count infant deaths until the baby is several days to several weeks old - and often only from a full term pregnancy. Most babies who die do in fact die within the first several days. Does the US have a high "infant mortality rate" - or are we just being the only ones who is being honest about all baby deaths. How low would the US numbers be if we waited until the baby was 1 week old.

In general you have to be careful comparing statistics on certain issues between countries - to be sure you are actually comparing apples to apples.

In the end - no matter how deaths are classified internal to most countries do in fact report total number of deaths at what age accurately (with the exception of how deaths of newborn babies are reported). If you look at overall mortality statistics the US does not do that bad. It is not the best in the world (memory says in the top 10%) - but very far from the worst.

With that all being said. I will agree that the US has a higher gun violence death rate than for some other countries (but not as high as other areas). I will also agree that the US has a higher alcohol influenced automobile accident death rate.

Guns are a part of American culture; with solid roots back to how this country was formed. I do not believe that is the problem.

Alcohol is a part of American culture. I would propose that is not a problem either (even though I don't drink).

America has a cultural acceptance of violence; alcoholism, and a cultural distrust of sex and sexuality. When I was growing up a movie that showed two adults making love in a loving responsible way - with any hint of flesh was X rated (not to mention movies that showed a lot of flesh). But movies that showed a person killing a number of other people in a variety of graphical ways outside of the context of a historical war movie was typically G or perhaps R rated. Some of these became cult movies (Texas Chain Saw Massacre). Its OK to teach our children that it is OK to use violence (and massive violence) to solve problems - but it was forbidden to show children naked people, and naked people making love.... For those who like to compare the US to Europe - the comparison is that gratuitous violence would be an X rated movie; and a sex/love fest movie would be G or perhaps R.

How many people remember the Hippie movement of the 60's and 70's in the US (I'm dating myself): Make Love, Not War. That was probably the first major society reaction against the standards of the day. While it dented things (movie ratings changed to allow more sex) it did not really change the US cultural acceptance of violence.

Another problem in my opinion a shift in who is responsible. Historically it was understood that as individuals we were responsible for our actions - and it was our responsibility to learn how to be responsible. Excuses to that were extremely limited.

Now its commonly accepted that individuals are not responsible (life is a lot more fun if you do not have to be responsible for your actions), and that there are rarely cases where there is clear right and wrong. Johnny has "_____" and we must excuse his behavior. The world is full of grey - how can you say this is wrong.

While I will agree that there are grey areas in the world - there are also clearly things that are right and wrong, and I feel that probably 90% of the modern "excuses" really are not. They may explain why a person is behaving how they do - they do not relieve the person from being responsible for their actions. Laws in the US have changed over the decades to prevent people from assuming responsibility as well as the "Government" knows better and will take care of you.

Until people realize that they have to really take personal responsibility - nothing will change. Until the laws in the US generally change to emphasize personal responsibility nothing much will change. Its just easier to "go along" and then gnash our teeth on the next event.

Have a great day,

Perry

 

[Loves Vintage]

The sad truth is that nothing will change. People say enough is enough. There must be tighter gun control laws. But, nothing will change. And, sadly, this WILL happen again.

Americans seem to be exceptionally good at forgetting this sort of thing. And, we ARE desensitized to random shootings at this point. If only 2 people get shot in a mall, we barely notice. Six people killed in a Sikh Temple in Wisconsin got barely a notice. Yes, it was on the news, but no one discussed it at my work, it wasn't mentioned on any of the forums I visit, no one called to tell me they were devastated. Because they were not. It's the new normal, and far enough away, and remote enough, and random enough, that it was barely noticed. Only six lives taken there.

And, people in this country love their guns. They hold onto their semi-automatic weapons tightly. Except when they are safely locked away in their gun safes. Away from their children, they all proudly tell me when I ask. Give it a few days, and we will surely hear that this mother had her guns "safely locked away" as well.

Give it few more days, maybe a few weeks, and we will forget. Until it happens again.

Yes, people who own guns are evil (and probably stupid and selfish). Suspect and potential killers all.

I understand that emotions are running high right now, but this is not helpful and does not add to a genuine dialogue.

We need to discuss sensible and EFFECTIVE gun control measures, have a clear-eyed vision of the practical details of how those measures can be implemented, and how much it will cost in dollars and resources, not just knee-jerk react. We desperately need to discuss the culture and conditions (we've been in a state of war for over a decade now, and the economy is struggling, to name but a few issues) that are creating these overwhelmingly unhinged, intelligent, young white males with some sort of grudge and a penchant for violence. And we need to make a genuine commitment to improving access to mental health services. Lumping all gun owners together as A)THE PROBLEM and B) as unwilling to entertain sensible restrictions, is counterproductive.

While I'm saddened as everyone else by this tragedy, being totally devastated by every tragedy that is on the news on any given day, (including those on the other side of the globe, which of course we get to hear of in real time now also), and allowing ourselves to feel every tragedy as deeply as those to whom they are happening, we risk BECOMING our own tragedy of depression. I was 8 blocks from the Murrah Building in '95, and while we appreciated the solid emotional support of the country, we didn't expect people outside the community to feel the pain to the depth that we did. I wouldn't inflict that level of pain on anyone.

I've seen people become nearly hysterical in this forum about things happening on the other side of the globe - things beyond their reach or influence, and I'm like....WHY? At the end of the day have you done anything constructive by being hysterical or devastated, except ruining your own state of existence? By all means, if it galvanizes you to action, then great, but don't try to put some guilt trip on people who don't react exactly like you do.

Re: the bold, did I say that?

Re: the remainder of your post, I think perhaps I do not use enough words when I post. I did not intend to say how people should react. I mean, I am apparently as de-sensitized as everyone else. I paid no attention at all to the mall shooting from earlier this week. I saw a post early in the day about the school shooting (on another forum) and didn't even look at the thread. Another school shooting. So, I'm not saying that people should behave in any specific way. Just saying in the past few years, after one of these events, people are always calling for change, but it doesn't happen.

 

[packrat]

Reposting what I've put on FB just b/c I'm too lazy to retype and reword.

I'm all for gun control. But I think during emotional times like this it's hard to talk about without coming to blows. It's a gut reaction to find a place to put the blame and focus on the tool rather than the person behind the tool and what that person was going thru in their lives and work on fixing that part. It's harder to get a gun thru legal means than it is thru criminal means.

We don't live in a world of absolutes. Or I don't, anyway. We live in a world where bad shit happens and there is no one in power right now who will stand up and say you know what **** this shit, this ends NOW. Not on anything. Not guns, not welfare, child abuse, drugs, mental health, gangs, crimes of any sort, nothing. There is no problem in this world that anyone will stand up and say I'm willing to do what it takes to make this problem RIGHT b/c there are too many people that will stand around and scream about it. You can kill people, and there will be someone who says "but what about the KILLER'S rights?" you can rape and molest kids and there will always be someone screeching that you have rights too and shouldn't be limited where you can go blah blah blah.

you can have the toughest laws in the world on every single thing, and law abiding citizens will follow, those who are not, will not. It's not about the laws, it's about the punishments. And, our country will not allow harsher punishments for horrendous crimes. There are too many bleeding heart people who will stand up for the criminals and kick the victims to the curb. Those in power are too worried about their money and careers and their own power and control, to stand up and put a stop to things. We systematically disregard those w/mental health issues and toss them to the side. You don't just wake up on a random day in December and decide to kill people.

There needs to be middle ground. It can't be all right and it can't be all left. They shouldn't be banned completely and you can't let every Tom Dick and Harry get them like you get a pack of Doublemint at the store. Tragedies happen, and when they do, that's when people crawl out of the woodwork, salivating to take things away and salivating to keep them. It's not about the *things*, it's about the people *behind* the things. Fix mental health. Fix the drug problem. When that guy was all hopped up on bath salts or whatever the hell it was and ate that other guys face, people were more interested in trolling around looking for the pictures than what happened. If you have a bad day, normal every day people aren't going to go get their gun and start letting loose on the general public. If however, you have a bad day and you are self medicating w/strong psych meds or using street drugs, would your mind possibly be a little wonky and might you possibly think there was no alternative? Yes. I am not a criminal. I could probably get a gun on my own easier thru back channels than to do it properly the legal way. So what good does it do to make it harder for me to get a gun, if I just want to go out target shooting w/my husband? Is there a looming threat that I may go off my rocker and unload it on him if he neglects to clean up his beard hair when he trims is? That would require me to clean up an even bigger mess, so no, he's safe. It will never ever ever be too hard for a criminal, or someone w/criminal thoughts on their mind, to get a gun or any other sort of weapon a person might be looking for. Criminals don't pay attention, nor do they follow, the laws. Someone w/mental health issues who has a break down, is not going to follow the laws. The sad part is, you can't make punishments harsher, because there are too many hand wringing pansies that are overly concerned w/rights of those that break the law than those that follow the law. I posted on a friends thread about this that you can molest and rape KIDS, and there will ALWAYS be someone, many someones, ready to stand up for you and to defend your right to be around kids and your right to privacy, and not give one passing thought to the right of everyone else to know you're there.

Get to the root of the problems, find out what is causing these things. The guns aren't the cause. They're not sitting around at Scheel's when the lights are off, whispering and conspiring against the human race.

 

[ksinger]

The sad truth is that nothing will change. People say enough is enough. There must be tighter gun control laws. But, nothing will change. And, sadly, this WILL happen again.

Americans seem to be exceptionally good at forgetting this sort of thing. And, we ARE desensitized to random shootings at this point. If only 2 people get shot in a mall, we barely notice. Six people killed in a Sikh Temple in Wisconsin got barely a notice. Yes, it was on the news, but no one discussed it at my work, it wasn't mentioned on any of the forums I visit, no one called to tell me they were devastated. Because they were not. It's the new normal, and far enough away, and remote enough, and random enough, that it was barely noticed. Only six lives taken there.

And, people in this country love their guns. They hold onto their semi-automatic weapons tightly. Except when they are safely locked away in their gun safes. Away from their children, they all proudly tell me when I ask. Give it a few days, and we will surely hear that this mother had her guns "safely locked away" as well.

Give it few more days, maybe a few weeks, and we will forget. Until it happens again.

Yes, people who own guns are evil (and probably stupid and selfish). Suspect and potential killers all.

I understand that emotions are running high right now, but this is not helpful and does not add to a genuine dialogue.

We need to discuss sensible and EFFECTIVE gun control measures, have a clear-eyed vision of the practical details of how those measures can be implemented, and how much it will cost in dollars and resources, not just knee-jerk react. We desperately need to discuss the culture and conditions (we've been in a state of war for over a decade now, and the economy is struggling, to name but a few issues) that are creating these overwhelmingly unhinged, intelligent, young white males with some sort of grudge and a penchant for violence. And we need to make a genuine commitment to improving access to mental health services. Lumping all gun owners together as A)THE PROBLEM and B) as unwilling to entertain sensible restrictions, is counterproductive.

While I'm saddened as everyone else by this tragedy, being totally devastated by every tragedy that is on the news on any given day, (including those on the other side of the globe, which of course we get to hear of in real time now also), and allowing ourselves to feel every tragedy as deeply as those to whom they are happening, we risk BECOMING our own tragedy of depression. I was 8 blocks from the Murrah Building in '95, and while we appreciated the solid emotional support of the country, we didn't expect people outside the community to feel the pain to the depth that we did. I wouldn't inflict that level of pain on anyone.

I've seen people become nearly hysterical in this forum about things happening on the other side of the globe - things beyond their reach or influence, and I'm like....WHY? At the end of the day have you done anything constructive by being hysterical or devastated, except ruining your own state of existence? By all means, if it galvanizes you to action, then great, but don't try to put some guilt trip on people who don't react exactly like you do.

Re: the bold, did I say that?

Re: the remainder of your post, I think perhaps I do not use enough words when I post. I did not intend to say how people should react. I mean, I am apparently as de-sensitized as everyone else. I paid no attention at all to the mall shooting from earlier this week. I saw a post early in the day about the school shooting (on another forum) and didn't even look at the thread. Another school shooting. So, I'm not saying that people should behave in any specific way. Just saying in the past few years, after one of these events, people are always calling for change, but it doesn't happen.

Perhaps not. But it is not much of a stretch, given your attitude about people "loving" their guns or "clinging tightly to their semi-automatic weapons", and your clear suspicion that the responsible gun owners that you know - those who do lock their guns up, still are suspect and not doing enough. Makes legal gun owners as a group sound more than a bit unhinged and unreasonable. Hyperbole for hyperbole, yes? Perhaps not all that helpful either, but I confess I do get tired of this persistent stereotype (this is NOT the first gun discussion on here by far) on a board that froths mightily at even the merest hint of other kinds of stereotypes.

Back to the subject though, I would like to know what the people proposing restrictions, want. A total ban of all firearms? Partial? Full autos? Semi-autos? Handguns? Sales of military calibers? What? Let's get down to brass tacks. Blanket, blowsy proclamations about how "we need tougher gun laws" are pretty useless, IMO. Connecticut, by all accounts, already has some of the most restrictive laws in the country (notice how quickly the news was able to report that the mother had 4 and the father had 2 legally registered weapons - 3 of which appeared to be legacy guns - the Henry repeater, the Enfield and the shotgun). Clearly, in this case, that didn't stop the violence.

 

[Circe]

And, someone in China, just yesterday attacked and slashed 22 children with a knife. The weapon isn't the issue, it's the person, what makes someone do it, not what weapon they use. Do a google search for knife attacks in China and you will get pages of hits. Guns aren't accessible/allowed but knives are. Knee jerk reactions to guns won't solve anything. This is not about guns.

As Washington DC proved for years, gun control laws do nothing. As for comparing a country like Australia and their gun laws, that's apples and oranges. Australia's population is smaller, more spread out and have no borders. The access points are highly controlled and there aren't as many of them.

Gun control laws keep guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens. Criminals by definition break laws.

And as someone already pointed out up thread ... Today in China, twenty kids are injured. In America, twenty kids are DEAD. Guns, particularly automatics, make a difference.

The fact that this appears to be the one area of efficiency where we "beat" the Chinese is not heartening.

 

[perry]

And as someone already pointed out up thread ... Today in China, twenty kids are injured. In America, twenty kids are DEAD. Guns, particularly automatics, make a difference.

The fact that this appears to be the one area of efficiency where we "beat" the Chinese is not heartening.

Circe:

Yes, guns are an efficient killing tool. They were designed for that.

For those who think that gun control is the answer and cite other countries; or think this problem is soley a US problem - remember the Norway 2011 event: 69 dead, 110 injured. Very strict gun control laws. But no one was willing to fight the shooter.

Since I live in Wisconsin - and we tend to make the news over the years on these kinds of events (I think there have been 4 school shootings that have made the national news in the last half dozen years from Wisconsin):

The 2006 case is an example of what I think should have happened here. A Custodian and Principal physically assaulted the armed assailant, and other people then assisted. The Principal received fatal gunshot wounds; but was able to disrupt things enough so that other people were able to physically restrain the assailant.

Please study the outcome of such events based on if people are willing to fight back to protect the general group (even unarmed people) versus where all people do is try to hide and take shelter.

Far less people routinely die when the assailant is attacked (by whatever means available) by other people. Yes, the people who fight back may be killed or seriously injured; but its no longer a massacre. Its a question of values: Do you only protect yourself - or do you protect others; and are you willing to personally take serious injury to prevent other people form likely being killed? Alternately, do you just let whatever happens because you are helpless to stop it?

People preset in their minds where there values are.

Who is responsible for stopping the next madman. Is it someone else - or might it be your responsibility because you just happen to be there. Everyone should be asking how they should be responding - and then come to terms with the justifications for their own personal answers.

How different would the outcome have been if the teachers and other adults in that school had been willing to directly attack the gunman. He would have been involved in a fight with a few instead of just being free to slaughter.

Have a great day,

Perry

 

[indecisive]

And, someone in China, just yesterday attacked and slashed 22 children with a knife. The weapon isn't the issue, it's the person, what makes someone do it, not what weapon they use. Do a google search for knife attacks in China and you will get pages of hits. Guns aren't accessible/allowed but knives are. Knee jerk reactions to guns won't solve anything. This is not about guns.

As Washington DC proved for years, gun control laws do nothing. As for comparing a country like Australia and their gun laws, that's apples and oranges. Australia's population is smaller, more spread out and have no borders. The access points are highly controlled and there aren't as many of them.

Gun control laws keep guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens. Criminals by definition break laws.

And as someone already pointed out up thread ... Today in China, twenty kids are injured. In America, twenty kids are DEAD. Guns, particularly automatics, make a difference.

The fact that this appears to be the one area of efficiency where we "beat" the Chinese is not heartening.

I was going to post this as well. Yes those children were attacked with a knife but they are all still alive. I am sure the parents of the Newtown children would give anything to have those odds instead of what they are dealing with now. I do not think arming all the teacher is an answer either. Think of all the incidents of friendly fire with trained soldiers and police. There will never be enough time and resources to make teachers or every citizen a trained professional with guns so how is that the answer??

 

[Circe]

Perry. Seriously. Teachers are people, too, and teachers from this attack are dead, too. Implying that it's somehow their own fault is actively offensive. Teachers aren't supposed to be like Israeli Air Marshalls with chalkboards: there's a completely different skill set involved (and, frankly, if we start putting teachers through a Seal-like training program, while we'll definitely have grounds to raise their salaries, I sort of feel like it would significantly cut down on our pool of prospectives). When I try to imagine sweet Mrs. Seagal who taught me in the third grade with a gun ... things don't go well. She was in her 60s, near-sighted, and her hands shook. Amazing teacher, but not exactly the person I want around children with a loaded weapon - aggressive fire or friendly fire, it doesn't make much of a difference at the funeral.

One of the benefits of establishing a civilized society is supposed to be that we don't all have to be red in tooth and claw. Not to mention the purely practical fact that, while a lot of us have hero fantasies - if I'd been there! etc. - the truth is that when it comes to fight-or-flight (not to mention general good health, response to adrenaline, hand-eye coordination, on and on and on ....) the statistical majority just aren't cut out for battle. This is why we have generally designated a given portion of our population - knights, soldiers, cops, name your epoch - to fight our battles.

I'm not in love with the idea of making schools into Supermax facilities, either - I feel like that way lies a vicious circle of fear and paranoia that will lead to more gate communities, more Trayvon Martins. And it's not like madmen are magnetically attracted to schools. They're just going where the victims are. Do we make lockouts around the candy stores? The playgrounds? And if so, aren't we eventually just creating pockets of gun-control, instead of tackling the problem at its root?

On the other hand, we actually have data - see posts from JustGinger, HOT, Freke, and Rhea - that losing the guns results in a safer society. I'm going to trust the numbers on this. And go sign the petition addressing the White House concerning gun control: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/pe...gh-introduction-legislation-congress/2tgcXzQC And figure out where to best put my money, other than my mouth - anybody got any tips on the best anti-NRA lobby to which to donate?

 

[LaraOnline]

The shooter's mother had the guns. Why on earth would an ordinary woman possess even one gun?
The cultural entitlement to gun ownership is a massive issue as far as tragedies.
If this deranged young man couldn't get easy access to a gun, he is not so likely to hook up with criminals for an illegal gun.
He would have just gassed himself in a car, stabbed his mum with a kitchen knife or some other ghastly thing...guns kill, because that is precisely what they are designed to do.
In Australia, rural people are far more likely than urbanised people to kill themselves and their family members with guns. Why? Because it is simply a matter of picking a lock, or finding the ammo, before the mood changes. Guns are killing machines, that is their sole purpose and intention.
Feeling down? Get the gun. Even the most ardent pro-gun lobbyist has to admit that proximity to a gun greatly increases the likelihood of a gun being used. My own father, a cattle man, died as a result of his old and very unsophisticated rifle being readily to hand at the end of a bad emotional run. Yes, he committed suicide. Just another statistic. It took just a few moments once his intention was formed. Quick, easy, instant...perhaps even painless.
And yes I am from Australia, but as a member of this international community it disturbs me very greatly to see this bizarre and extreme violence...happening repeatedly!! No child deserves this fate! And no adult either! As a fellow human it is reasonable for me to care.

 

[Rosebloom]

Perry. Seriously. Teachers are people, too, and teachers from this attack are dead, too. Implying that it's somehow their own fault is actively offensive. Teachers aren't supposed to be like Israeli Air Marshalls with chalkboards: there's a completely different skill set involved (and, frankly, if we start putting teachers through a Seal-like training program, while we'll definitely have grounds to raise their salaries, I sort of feel like it would significantly cut down on our pool of prospectives). When I try to imagine sweet Mrs. Seagal who taught me in the third grade with a gun ... things don't go well. She was in her 60s, near-sighted, and her hands shook. Amazing teacher, but not exactly the person I want around children with a loaded weapon - aggressive fire or friendly fire, it doesn't make much of a difference at the funeral.

One of the benefits of establishing a civilized society is supposed to be that we don't all have to be red in tooth and claw. Not to mention the purely practical fact that, while a lot of us have hero fantasies - if I'd been there! etc. - the truth is that when it comes to fight-or-flight (not to mention general good health, response to adrenaline, hand-eye coordination, on and on and on ....) the statistical majority just aren't cut out for battle. This is why we have generally designated a given portion of our population - knights, soldiers, cops, name your epoch - to fight our battles.

I'm not in love with the idea of making schools into Supermax facilities, either - I feel like that way lies a vicious circle of fear and paranoia that will lead to more gate communities, more Trayvon Martins. And it's not like madmen are magnetically attracted to schools. They're just going where the victims are. Do we make lockouts around the candy stores? The playgrounds? And if so, aren't we eventually just creating pockets of gun-control, instead of tackling the problem at its root?

On the other hand, we actually have data - see posts from JustGinger, HOT, Freke, and Rhea - that losing the guns results in a safer society. I'm going to trust the numbers on this. And go sign the petition addressing the White House concerning gun control: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/pe...gh-introduction-legislation-congress/2tgcXzQC And figure out where to best put my money, other than my mouth - anybody got any tips on the best anti-NRA lobby to which to donate?

I second your post.

From the NRA's own website, a list of anti-gun lobbying organizations.

http://nraila.org/Issues/factsheets/read.aspx?ID=14

Here's the Brady Campaign's website:
http://www.bradycampaign.org/about/

 

[Circe]

Thanks, Rosebloom.

 

[movie zombie]

The shooter's mother had the guns. Why on earth would an ordinary woman possess even one gun?...........................

i am an ordinary woman.
i am a mother.
i am a grandmother.
i own guns.
i am in my 60's.
i had a rifle when i was 8.
my father was a hunter and at 88 still would hunt if he had the physical capability to do so.
i have never even killed a bird or a rodent.
i enjoy going to the range.
i have never had a fantasy of shooting another living thing.
i will shoot anyone trying to kill me or mine.
my guns are legally purchased.
why should i be penalized for the actions of an insane person?

i am aware of the laws in AU as i am married to an AU citizen.
the rate of crime is going up in that country along with drug usage.
people are not able to defend themselves.
it is very true that only criminals who DO NOT RESPECT THE LAW IN THE FIRST PLACE will find guns no matter what and will use them for their own gain against the very people that turn theirs in. again, law breakers don't care about law!

i live in a very rural area.
many years ago the sheriff put out a reverse 911 call: felon in shoot out over the ridge behind us on the lose, armed and dangerous and knowing the trails. we were told to be on the look out and to be safe....i called the sheriff after that incident and was referred to a gunshop. my AU husband even said yeah, i think its time you armed up because by the time a sheriff would get here i'd be dead and i'm home alone 90% of the time in an area that is not greatly populated and no one would hear my screams.

i was going to stay out of this but i have never been one for group punishment. i agree that something needs to be done. but eliminating guns from those THAT OBEY THE LAW is not the answer.

my heart goes out to the families. i cannot even begin to imagine the type of scarring this will have on the children that survived. may they find peace in their lifetime.

but then again i have never understood how the people of ireland lived through "the troubles" on a daily basis knowing that their child might leave the house and never return. or how those enduring the serbian conflict managed to live their lives. we live very insulated lives here in the US. the violence of other countries seems remote and unimportant because it does not affect our daily lives. we continue to say we don't want to pay more taxes or do anything for others.

we must begin to understand that we do have a responsibility for one another BEFORE such an event and spend the time and $ to provide a quality of life that might just stop such events in the first place. as a society we've abandoned the concept of in this together until something goes wrong. there is no such thing as a quick fix. if gun control were the answer it would have worked already......and the idea that i can walk into a gunshow and walk out with a gun is a myth.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Ditto MZ ... a grandma who packs heat!! ..

 

[diamondseeker2006]

The shooter's mother had the guns. Why on earth would an ordinary woman possess even one gun?...........................

i am an ordinary woman.
i am a mother.
i am a grandmother.
i own guns.
i am in my 60's.
i had a rifle when i was 8.
my father was a hunter and at 88 still would hunt if he had the physical capability to do so.
i have never even killed a bird or a rodent.
i enjoy going to the range.
i have never had a fantasy of shooting another living thing.
i will shoot anyone trying to kill me or mine.
my guns are legally purchased.
why should i be penalized for the actions of an insane person?

i am aware of the laws in AU as i am married to an AU citizen.
the rate of crime is going up in that country along with drug usage.
people are not able to defend themselves.
it is very true that only criminals who DO NOT RESPECT THE LAW IN THE FIRST PLACE will find guns no matter what and will use them for their own gain against the very people that turn theirs in. again, law breakers don't care about law!

i live in a very rural area.
many years ago the sheriff put out a reverse 911 call: felon in shoot out over the ridge behind us on the lose, armed and dangerous and knowing the trails. we were told to be on the look out and to be safe....i called the sheriff after that incident and was referred to a gunshop. my AU husband even said yeah, i think its time you armed up because by the time a sheriff would get here i'd be dead and i'm home alone 90% of the time in an area that is not greatly populated and no one would hear my screams.

i was going to stay out of this but i have never been one for group punishment. i agree that something needs to be done. but eliminating guns from those THAT OBEY THE LAW is not the answer.

my heart goes out to the families. i cannot even begin to imagine the type of scarring this will have on the children that survived. may they find peace in their lifetime.

but then again i have never understood how the people of ireland lived through "the troubles" on a daily basis knowing that their child might leave the house and never return. or how those enduring the serbian conflict managed to live their lives. we live very insulated lives here in the US. the violence of other countries seems remote and unimportant because it does not affect our daily lives. we continue to say we don't want to pay more taxes or do anything for others.

we must begin to understand that we do have a responsibility for one another BEFORE such an event and spend the time and $ to provide a quality of life that might just stop such events in the first place. as a society we've abandoned the concept of in this together until something goes wrong. there is no such thing as a quick fix. if gun control were the answer it would have worked already......and the idea that i can walk into a gunshow and walk out with a gun is a myth.

Excellent post, MZ.

 

[Sakuracherry]

Perry,

Just to clarify, in my country, 30651 people killed themselves last year. The government publishes the number every year. Bad economy and the earthquake were two big causes of suicide in 2011. In the past 20 years, there was no year that more than 100 people died from gunshot, including suicide and homicide. People can purchase guns leagally, but you have to go through extensive mental health exams and attend classes.

I'm not saying people shouldn't have guns, as I understand this is part of the American culture. However, I do believe that strict gun control in necessary. I wonder what the congress can do to create safer society. Oh well, somebody could sue government and the Supreme Court could strike down the gun control law. We'd be back to the beginning.



I'm sure all our hearts ache for the victims of the shooting yesterday. We all agree that those victims didn't deserve to die. Now, what can we do to prevent that kind of tragedy from happening? It is very clear that something needs to be changed.

 

[lyra]

I support a complete ban on guns, period. It's insanity. If it saves lives, I don't care if it takes away individual rights. Guns are killing *machines*. I didn't always feel this way, but I'm sick of watching the carnage happening south of our border. No, I'm not American, so my opinion means nothing. I do know that I no longer travel to the US, or allow my grown kids to do so. It's too frightening in this day and age. It's only going to get worse because these massacres just keep happening and it seems nowhere is safe. I don't care about responsible gun owners rights either. The shooter's mother was a responsible gun owner. Her weapons were used against her and others. I'm glad I don't live in the US. I'd be terrified if I had young children there, since there seems to be no safe place to congregate. Since this is not my country and not within my ability to change, this is the last I will say in this thread.

 

[rosetta]

I'm just glad I don't live in a country wear it's legal to bear arms, in particular concealed weapons. I'd feel very unsafe. I can't enter the debate about America's gun laws, as I don't live there.


My heart goes out to all the families.

 

[Laila619]

I support a complete ban on guns, period. It's insanity. If it saves lives, I don't care if it takes away individual rights. Guns are killing *machines*. I didn't always feel this way, but I'm sick of watching the carnage happening south of our border. No, I'm not American, so my opinion means nothing. I do know that I no longer travel to the US, or allow my grown kids to do so. It's too frightening in this day and age. It's only going to get worse because these massacres just keep happening and it seems nowhere is safe. I don't care about responsible gun owners rights either. The shooter's mother was a responsible gun owner. Her weapons were used against her and others. I'm glad I don't live in the US. I'd be terrified if I had young children there, since there seems to be no safe place to congregate. Since this is not my country and not within my ability to change, this is the last I will say in this thread.

I do live in the US, and I feel exactly this way. And my own father is a responsible, card-carrying member of the NRA and gun owner.

 

[zoebartlett]

Thanks, Circe. You posted what I was thinking. Perry, a teacher's number one job is to keep kids safe, to do the very best one can. If a crisis happens, teachers are trained to stay with their children to protect them, look after them, and try to keep them calm. We practice lock downs and other types of drills every month. I can't imagine (as a lower elementary teacher) leaving my children alone, scared and worried, to assault the perpetrator. Our job is not to become Rambo.

In a previous post, you mentioned that the adults in a school should be able to protect the children. Of course that's our goal, but it seems as if your post blames staff members for not doing their job. That's really offensive, especially in a case like this. While I don't know the people affected by this utterly horrible tragedy, I feel somewhat close to this situation for a few personal reasons.

I have many more thoughts on this subject but I can't wrap my head around them to explain them well right now. Obviously this is a delicate subject and everyone is entitled to his opinions and post whatever he'd like. I just wanted you to know how it might come across to certain people.

 

[Sparklelu]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2248477/She-threw-gunman-save-students-Astonishing-story-brave-teacher-died-protecting-children-deeply-disturbed-killer.html?ITO=google_news_rss_feed&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=google_news_rss_feed

Here ya go! The teacher, the principal as well as a guidance counselor all "tried " to slow down the attacker. God only knows how many lives these unbelievably brave women saved.