CONFUSED & Running out of time to decide! Should I return this diamond?

[Ellen]

Date: 10/16/2007 7:09:45 PM
Author: 3shebabes
Wow. I don''t even know how to give this thread closure...

You just did.

And congrats, you''ve REALLY got a great diamond there.



Now, on to settings..... Hi ho silver, awayyyyyyyyyyyy.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Date: 10/16/2007 7:34:47 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 10/16/2007 7:09:45 PM
Author: 3shebabes
Wow. I don''t even know how to give this thread closure...

You just did.

And congrats, you''ve REALLY got a great diamond there.



Now, on to settings..... Hi ho silver, awayyyyyyyyyyyy.

Ditto! We have a lot of fun helping others since we can''t all keep buying diamonds on an unlimited basis!

And sincerely, we don''t hesitate to tell people when we do not like a stone, because we want everyone to have the best possible stone for their money! And I agree with Ellen, you found a beauty!

 

[pyramid]

I would like to reply to Alj about the diamonds I was considering.


The reason I changed my mind about the diamond from Whiteflash was because of older posts where GIA came out with the new cut grade, I know that Rhino was a major poster in those threads with other vendors, but those threads were all written and correspondence had tailed off before I ordered from Whiteflash. I then did further research (which I should have done before buying I know

) and found the posts on painting. I was never in touch with Rhino and his company by email though and only asked questions on the forum or to Whiteflash about their own product.

Likewise when I was considering the diamond about two months later from Rhino, (it was I who saw it online and contacted GoodoldGold), the fiasco which came about pavillions was because again I was reading older posts and started a question on 41 pavillion angle. In the same way Whiteflash was not intouch with me by email about that either, this was all on the public forum, except one question I asked Brian Gavin about it by email and got a response that he could not give an opinion because he was a competitor of Rhino and I would have to make my own mind up from what was written on the forum.

Now I am not sure as a customer about these things and both diamonds were probably equal but I just wanted to clear up that neither Rhino nor Whiteflash did anything to make me change my mind. If I had read those threads before buying I would still have come to the same conclusion.

I know what Rhino has written about an 'expert' giving advice about the stone I considered from him. However there was a current discussion going on there with Whiteflash chiming in and other experts, however in the case of the first stone all the posts on the matter in which Rhino had taken part happened months before I even looked at Whiteflash's stone so Rhino certainly did not do anything at that time to make me change my mind on the Whiteflash diamond. This is why I feel that in a way Aljdewey bringing that up was a bit unfair on Rhino and wanted to post in retalliation to that comment.

 

[Chase035]

From the perspective of a guy, I can see why this would really upset him. Probably went thru a lot of effort securing this stone for you (between finding it and paying for it). You should love it because it is the one he gave you. Regardless of whether the cut is in the 99th or 99.5th percentile. I sound harsh, but you''re ruining the romance of it. I recently considered several diamonds for my g/f. I tried to consult her but her response was to pick the one I thought was best, and she will love it forever simply because its the one I picked. Isn''t that how it should be.

 

[Fly Girl]

3shebabes - Having seen the IS and photos since my very early post in this thread, I have to conclude that you have one fantastic diamond. I''d keep that baby and go about getting it set!!!

Congratulations!

 

[aljdewey]

Pyramid, what an amazing and happy coincidence that you happened by this thread when you did!

The skeptic in me doesn't really believe it was random chance, but regardless of the circumstance, I'm GLAD that you replied........ because your reply does set the record straight on MANY fronts, and actually reinforces the point of my post.

As you know, no names were mentioned in either instance, but as you so aptly illustrated, names aren't really needed to fill in the blanks, are they? (Which was part of my point). Let's go back and get to specific comments above and work it through together, okay?

Rhino said: "Not too long ago a client of ours returned a diamond based on the advice of an expert......
(we all know he's talking about Brian)

becuase of a .1 degree difference in an average pavilion angle that had absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the optics/performance of the diamond......
(as in the one you had in hand from him. Despite the insinuation here, Brian never made any commentary about any single, specific stone....including the one you were looking at).

He made generalized comments about over 41-angle stones on a public forum based on his knowledge and experience.

Absolutely, positively NO different an activity than Rhino doing the exact SAME THING himself some months earlier when HE was the one making generalizations.....except his platform was about painted diamonds.

"It was a perfect H&A, perfect reflector image, triple VH via Bscope, 9.x via Isee2, met both GIA/AGS top specs in every respect and a very rare size and diamond yet was returned all because of what the expert told her
Rhino is alleging that your decision to return the GOG diamond was based SOLELY (read the 'all because' part of his post again) on something Brian told you. Blatantly untrue.....AND in *fact* debunked by your most recent post.

As you just said, 1) what prompted your concern was older posts (not what Brian told you), 2) that Whiteflash wasn't in touch with you (via email or any other outlet) beyond making general comments in a public forum, and 3) even when you expressly emailed Brian asking for his advice, he refused to give any opinion.

when in fact there wasn't a stitch of evidence to support the experts advice."
Since Brian wasn't speaking about YOUR specific stone, there would be no need for "evidence" to prove that his comments were or were not applicable to your specific stone.


So, let's get right to the "Cliff's notes" version of what the posts above meant.

Point of Rhino's post:
Woe is me

- Pyramid decided that she didn't want to keep a stone I sold her that I know is perfect, so I'm going to blame her decision on Brian and insinuate that he told her something that caused her to decide to return the stone.

Point(s) of my post to Rhino:
--Stop whining and blaming crap on others, especially when it's untrue (which your recent post proved).
--Don't have the gall to complain about generalized comments (non-stone specific) when he himself does that very same thing...........(in my opinion more than anyone else on this forum!)
--Stop trying to blame Pyramid's decision on Brian. 1) Pyramid is a big girl and can read/make her own decisions.
2) She made her decision to return your stone in the EXACT same manner she made the decision not to purchase another (WF painted stone) earlier.....by reading comments from SEVERAL people on the forum, with NO specific advice on any specific stone from any other vendor.

As far as the whole "WF chimed in on the thread".....it's a public forum. WF has a reputation for participating ALL the time, not just when it suits them and their interests, so it shouldn't be a surprise that they would participate in such a thread. It's actually a lot less sneaky than starting another "let me show you all something interesting" guise-of-education 'separate' thread that runs eerily coincidental to a thread of the same topic.

I call em like I see em, Pyramid, and if that feels unfair to you, I guess I'd suggest that you do what's served you well so far.....go back and reread the older threads. There's plenty of basis in those to support why I feel as I do, and we don't have to agree or see it the same way.

I respect that you've had a great experience with Jon (and with WF), and I'm not suggesting you should agree with my perspective. But nor does that mean I'm not entitled to make a point I believed (and STILL believe) was valid. It's fine with me that others may not agree; that doens't dampen my desire to express it anyway.

I really hope you'll find a stone that thrills you, and when it feels right to you, you'll know and you'll go with it.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Date: 10/19/2007 5:27:21 PM
Author: Chase035
From the perspective of a guy, I can see why this would really upset him. Probably went thru a lot of effort securing this stone for you (between finding it and paying for it). You should love it because it is the one he gave you. Regardless of whether the cut is in the 99th or 99.5th percentile. I sound harsh, but you''re ruining the romance of it. I recently considered several diamonds for my g/f. I tried to consult her but her response was to pick the one I thought was best, and she will love it forever simply because its the one I picked. Isn''t that how it should be.

Chase, welcome! But this is not an engagement ring. It is a new ring for her anniversary and she is helping pick out the stone. Of course, many women help pick out their engagement ring. I went with my BF years ago and tried on rings and he went back and bought the one I liked best at the time. That way, he knew he was getting something I really loved!

 

[Rhino]

Thank you kindly pyramid for posting that retaliation on my behalf and clarifying about the false allegations that Aljdewey was making about me. When I was being accused of these things by her I thought perhaps I may have said something to you indirectly about a competitors product that persuaded out of their stone and for that I would apologize. I'm thankful to have emailed you directly and learn that this indeed wasn't the case at all.

With kind regards,

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

Date: 10/19/2007 11:24:45 PM
Author: Rhino
Thank you kindly pyramid for posting that retaliation on my behalf and clarifying about the false allegations that Aljdewey was making about me.

Snuff it out while you can. Coming from someone who learned about alj's false allegations the hard way...


(and to those who want to respond to this post, please dont bother, I won't be on here much anymore

and if we wanted to pursue my opinion on that we would need to do a lengthy thread by thread analysis of the past month, and not even I am stupid enough to think that is anywhere near practical in a public forum)

 

[pyramid]

I am not so sure if Aljdewey is making false accusations or is just re-attacking to the comment the 'expert' regarding the second diamond. However, there could be things going on in the background here which I as a customer have no knowledge off.

I felt that the comment made by Rhino was out of place but then should it not have been John Quixote who is the Public Relations Director (not sure if correct title) of Whiteflash who should have responded to the comment which may just be a normal remark made by competitors on a public forum trying to get new customers.

There is sometimes a grey line here about who is who, for instance I remember when Storm was buying his fiancee her new ring, which was cut I think through the cutters Rhino uses and Mara made a remark that, word had it on the street he had bought a new half carat. I remember thinking then how would Mara know. I wonder in the same way how Aljdewey knew about my being very keen on a diamond which I changed my mind about because of painting. I do feel this is a grey line because I did make posts about painting but did not think there was such a topic that it was common knowledge that I had not bought the diamond. Maybe I wrote in a post about this and cannot recall so I am not sayng it is fact. I feel though that this type of thing is muddying the waters for all and now WHFSR is stating he may not be returning much to the forum (not sure what that is all about but may go and read some of his posts).

 

[Rhino]

Hi pyramid,

I''m referring to her false allegations on the previous page. She says rather plainly and referring to me.

Date: 10/15/2007 5:36:34 PM
Author: aljdewey

Date: 10/15/2007 3:59:50 PM
Author: Rhino

WHFSR is not alone though and I see this happen sometimes in the trade as well. Not too long ago a client of ours returned a diamond based on the advice of an expert becuase of a .1 degree difference in an average pavilion angle that had absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the optics/performance of the diamond. It was a perfect H&A, perfect reflector image, triple VH via Bscope, 9.x via Isee2, met both GIA/AGS top specs in every respect and a very rare size and diamond yet was returned all because of what the expert told her when in fact there wasn''t a stitch of evidence to support the experts advice.

Yes, in fact, it happens more frequently than one thinks.

If memory serves, Rhino, I recall that same client had been considering another stone from another vendor prior to considering yours, and I recall she seemed pretty high on that stone....that is, until right around that same time, another expert suggested painted diamonds were inferior and should be avoided.

This is a false allegation because I never suggested to you painted diamonds are inferior and should be avoided. In fact if you read any of my articles on the subject which as you stated (and is true) that I published well before you were even looking at the WF stones I never make a blanket statement that all painted diamonds are to be avoided. In her continuing dialogue Alj continues to say, referring to me...

That same expert even went so far as to suggest that one of the chief wigs at AGS would always prefer diamonds with no painting (or digging).

Interesting details of a conversation that never took place with you. Do you recall me suggesting or saying this to you pyramid? Another false allegation.

As in your claimed situation, the diamond in question at that time was not deficient in any way, and there wasn''t a shred of evidence to support that painting negatively affected the diamond she was considering, either.

Since I never stated anything above, I never suggested the diamond was painted to the effect that it would take a hit in any system. In fact I don''t even know or was aware of whatever you were looking at with any competitors. Only a fool would try to predict the exact amount of painting or digging on a diamond they did not physically inspect or have the tools to accurately do the job with. Another false allegation based on a presupposed conversation that never took place pyramid.

For clarification, these are the false allegations I am referring to in my previous response.

Kind regards,

 

[surfgirl]

*aHEM*clears throat loudly*

After reading the last few posts I wanted to say that I think, in order to maintain the integrity of this forum and to know who is who, anyone who is in the actual industry ought to be on a clear list, with their screen name, their real name, and the company(ies) they work for. That way we can know who they are and from what perspective they are coming from when they post about such things. It is disturbing to me to think that some regular posters are in the industry, behind the scenes as it were, and we dont know that during our conversations. I think full disclosure is in order and it would be great to have a link/page here where anyone from a company, store, etc. is asked to make themselves known so we know who we''re talking to.

As for people leaving Pyramid, I dont think that has any bearing on this most recent discussion. It''s a result of other issues, not your posts.

 

[pyramid]

No I know WHFSR is not leaving because of my posts. He is leaving because of accusations he says.

I am not on either side because I know that neither vendor has told me anything about another so I know myself there is nothing untoward there.

As I said I don't think Aldjewey is accusing either although her words do seem to but I feel she knows those comments Rhino made about painted diamonds were made by him before my purchase enquiry to Whiteflash. What I was saying in my first post was that I felt she was using that because he had made the comment that the .1 degree angle details talked about by experts on the forum had made me cancel my sale with him. In a way she was right because although Rhino had nothing to do with me cancelling my sale, it was his posts which contributed to it (unknown to him) in the same way Brian Gavin's posts contributed to my returning the diamond to Rhino (and probably unknown to him too). When I said Whiteflash chimed in, I did not mean it in a bad sense just that they entered the conversation. I took from Aljdewey's reply that she may have thought I meant chimed in another way (maybe not). I don't think anyone is accusing anyone just that people are speaking at cross purposes.

I mean with the original topic about the tutorial by Whiteflash on Hearts, so what if the AGS0 had been left out, that is marketing, even in a tutorial a company is allowed to bring things out that reflect on their product, that is what earning a living is about is it not. I think we tend to put blind faith on the experts and vendors and what we are told on this forum. I feel that Independent Appraisers is where the faith should be, and I noticed when the talks were going on about pavillion angles and painting that none of the Independent Appraisers made comments or got involved in the topics which makes me wonder if hearts and arrows and pavillion angles and everything we learn here are just marketing tactics and Independent Appraisers do not have any opinion about them because they are all good unless we have a dog of a diamond. This is what we do, we nit pick about the stats on a diamond but most people say when they have had their diamond a time, they don't remember what the stats were. It sort of points to the post to which Nicrez made on the post about HW, Graff and Tiffany about how their customers are not into these stats but into D colour IF and not Excellent Cut but sometimes good cut or as Garry Holloway put it the elegance and sophistication of highend stores like Graff, Harry Winston etc.

 

[psadmin]

This thread is closed because:
1) The OP has already received what she needed from it
2) The thread has gone off topic

And finally, personal attacks are against policy

I urge that those who have contributed to the personal attacks (and you all know who you are) stop before I take extreme action!!
Andrey
PS Admin