Confused by Diamonds

[bottlecap]

I have being doing some research for diamonds the past 3-4 weeks. I am thoroughly frustrated by the process. Trying to purchase a diamond is like trying to solve a physics problem AND buying a car...tooooo many options! I am inches away from contacting a diamond broker, but I figure I''ll post this message FIRST (while I cool down my two brains cells I have left).

Here''s my Scenario: Budget: $8000 (Approximately). Looking for a 1.15 to 1.2 carat diamond in the E-F color range and a clarity of VS1 with no culet or fluorescence. I am confused by the "CUT" factor and the variety of patterns associated with the cut, e.g., H&A and AGS000, as well as the depth and table parameters.

If I buy a H&A, am I ensured that all the parameters will be "IDEAL"?

Why are H&A more expensive?

Help

 

[Griffin]

>Why are H&A more expensive?

It's because someone has to paint all those little hearts and arrows on the back, and they are really tiny. Some places used to use rub-on vinyl hearts and arrows, but they kept peeling off.

Hmmmm. Which do I need, sleep or coffee. More coffee methinks....

 

[baltneu]

Bottlecap
Don't get frustrated, enjoy the experience!
Check out this site and all the postings and read about H & A, get educated, and you will make the right decision for yourself. Bill

 

[phoenixgirl]

In general, H&A patterns will appear in a stone that has excellent symmetry and good light return. However, it might be possible to see the hearts and arrows pattern and not have the best light return. It might also be possible for hearts and arrows to appear in a stone that is not thought to be exactly ideal.

That said, there is a premium for H&A stones because they are generally a very good guarantee of cut quality. Of course, you could get a stone that has very good light return but which doesn't show the hearts and arrows pattern.

I suggest you get a sarin report from the jeweler or look at AGS certed stones . . . that way you know the crown and pavilion angles, which are the true key to brilliance.

Here are some stones to show you what you can get for around 7-8K:

#1 1.17 D VS1

#2 1.06 F VS1 non H&A

#3 1.03 F VS1 H&A

#4 1.14 F VS2 H&A

#5 1.19 G VS1 H&A

#6 1.01 F VS1 ACA

#7 1.06 E VS1 SuperbCert

#8 1.07 F VS1 SuperbCert

#9 1.145 D VS2

#10 1.23 G VS1

As you can see, your budget affords a lot of options. However, you will probably have to be a little flexible on color and clarity if you want to stay in your carat weight range and have the best cut. You can see that stones 1, 2, and 10 are less expensive than their H&A counterparts. What I like about these three stones is that due to the information available on them, you know they have great light return.

Also, I recommend getting a stone with a GIA cert (and a sarin analysis) or an AGS cert. Other certificates are ok but sometimes less strict, and that means that you might be getting a G VS2 when you think you're getting an F VS1.

 

[valeria101]

----------------
On 3/6/2004 7:42:14 AM bottlecap wrote:



If I buy a H&A, am I ensured that all the parameters will be 'IDEAL'?

Why are H&A more expensive?

----------------

After 2000 posts around here I still have no idea what "ideal" parameters are = there is no one definition of them: each seller has one! for example:

Stones with certain compbinations of crown and pavilion angles appear the "sparckliest" and some people consider this enough to call the stones "idea"; than, AGS0 cuts are stones with such angles AND very good polish and symmetry (the angles' advocates would say thatone more notch in polish and symmetry do very little for light return... AGS disagrees); than... some really neatly cut stones with all the right angles and top symmetry also display a funny pattern someone called "harts and arrows". To make things worse, there are a few stones here and there who fall through the threads of these overly simplified rules and refuze to look dull even if the angles are not quite right and there are no harts and arrows anywhere on them. However, such bargains are rare and not too many go for the trouble to determine wether it is worth finding them.

Most buyers would agree that diamonds showing those harts and arrows would be the best of all worlds, having both precise cutting of the right proportions to sparkle like no others. Since the harts and arrows are a stryking visual mark of cut quality - they also demand some premium: the worth of one's time to shoot for the illusive non-H&A with no less sprkle than a H&A diamond.

Does this make more sense?

The conclusion of the abover would be: there are many worthy stones of your desired color and clarity, right cut proportions but not displaying harts and Arrows, but make good buys. However, the harts and arrows pattern is a rather popular mark of quality worth all the money for whoemever likes - harts and arrows showing on a diamond

Do you ? It may be a good idea to see some of stones H&A and "near"... IMO

 

[hoorray]

Hi Bottlecap...

I find is easiest to work with a range of cut parameters to help narrow your choices. NiceIce posted the following specs a while back as a tighter range for ideal specs than the AGS0 specs. They caviat it saying that higher crown angles (35 degrees) can be beautiful as long as the pavilion angle complements it (below 41, I believe.) The HCA cut advisor can help you screen out poor performers. H&A is a indicator of optical symmetry and precision cutting, and usually indicates a well cut diamonds overall.

You'll need a Sarin report or an AGS cert to get the crown and pavilion angles, but those are the most important to determine light return, so don't short cut that -- ask the vendors to provide them.

"Tight" Ideal specs:
Depth: 59 - 61.8%
Table diameter: 55 - 56%
Crown angle: 34.3 - 34.8 degrees
Pavilion angle: 40.6 - 40.9 degrees
Girdle: thin to medium, faceted or medium, faceted
Culet: GIA None or AGS Pointed
Polish: GIA Excellent or AGS Ideal
Symmetry: GIA Excellent or AGS Ideal

As you find stones you can post their specs here and people will give you their opinions.


Also -- You may want to also consider vs2 clarity. I bumped down to that for my stone and there is NO visual difference unless you are looking through a loop or microscope. and even then, the inclusions are minor. The same can often be said for SI1.

 

[bottlecap]

Thanks EVERYONE, e.g., Valeria101, Lop, Phoenixgirl, Baltneau and Griffin (who probably needs sleep

+ coffee

), I feel a little bit more at ease

.

I feel more at ease talking to you guys then the high pressure diamond sales-people at stores.

Are you guys gemologist or diamond seller/distributor's...or just connoisseurs of diamond?

Phoenixgirl: Does it matter that the culet is pointed or is a culet that is classified as "NONE" better?

 

[phoenixgirl]

Pointed and none mean the same thing . . . that the diamond comes to a point at the bottom instead of being flattened. A very small, small, medium, large, etc. culet refers to how big the "dot" is created by the flattened bottom of the diamond, but pointed and none mean that there is essentially no facet on the bottom (this being the most desirable).

I'm just a diamond nerd. I'm a high school English teacher by trade.

I like to search for diamonds that meet people's specifications (I think a couple times I may have suggested a stone that ended up being that person's pet rock, and that makes me happy!), but I try to suggest a bunch of different vendors so that I don't seem to be endorsing one over the other.

 

[hoorray]

You'll find a lot of people here are just consumers who have educated ourselves and have purchased stones semi-recently -- like me. Others are in various aspects of the business, but they typically list their affiliations with their signature in their posts -- that is the forum policy. There is no solicitation allowed here -- it is designed to be an objective and educational web site for consumers.

Ask all the questions you want -- that's what this site is about

.

 

[bottlecap]

For a brief moment, I thought I knew my 4C's, but I am somewhat set back by the CUT factor.

More silly questions. All comments will be greatly appreciated.

Q. 1: Can someone comment about H&A, A Cut Above, and AGSO? Are these any different from a cut having, for example, excellent symmetry/polishing (or should I be talking about pavilion and crown angles)?

Q. 2: Do you necessarily pay more for these styles of cut?

Q. 3: Any recommendations on dealer's for any of the above styles among the PS community (with respect to quality, price and professionalism)?

 

[valeria101]

H&A... AGSO.. ACA... this are brothers of one and the same breed, to me at least.

You need two sets of cut parameters to get such a diamond: a certain combination of pavilion and crown angles (not really as narrow as mentioned above, that is just a small set within H&A-worthy proportions that some consider best of the best) AND 'Very Good' or better (this means grades such as GIA's "excellent" or AGS's "ideal") for polish and symmetry.

To these most would add thin-medium girdle and pointed culet as desirable traits - more of an afterthought.

The three 'names' you mention all stand for "ideal cut" diamonds which aspire to achieve the above mentioned criteria as well as possible. At best, you'd have 'ideal' polish and symmetry, a "correct" H&A pattern (the tutorial here gives the most strict definition of what correct H&A pattern in I know of - limited knowledge, granted) and top light return. Among the three names, each is awarded to a more or less "diverse" set of stones.

'H&A' is just trade lingo by now: there is no authority behind it by now and everyone can use the word in the trade. Therefore, anyone can call any diamond a "H&A" without infringing on anything.

'AGS0' is the top cut quality grade on a diamond certificate by AGS.
'ACA' is the brand of diamonds cut within H&A proportions, at Whiteflash.
The AGSO standard is probably looser than the ACA standards - although there may be a more subtle relation between the two.

Virtually each seller here would have some 'name' for their best selection of diamonds, which all aim to the same "ideal" of internal and external cut characteristics. This is, actually, the bind of PriceScope - (disclaimer:as I understand it.)

You may want to ask whether these parameters were chosen at random. Not really, the angles resulted from optical analysis of the traditional round diamond cut, and this is why there is some more or less strong agreement on what is the "ideal" range of them.

From this on, different tools help determine how well a certain stone ranks among H&A-type. You must have seen Jonathan's site (GoodOldGold)... He is using ALL of them

Hope this helps -
- I never yet tried to put my PS experience on one page yet

 

[bottlecap]

Hi Valeria101:

So, in summation, H&A, ACA and AGSO all refer to a diamond having a specific and ideal crown and pavilion angles. H&A, ACA and AGSO are merely trade names used by the respective dealers for their diamonds possessing the ideal crown/pavilion angles.

Other Dealers ("Other Dealers") may have diamonds with ideal crown and pavilion angles, but may not use any trade names associated with it.

Accordingly, simply looking for a diamond by H&A, ACA or AGSO classifier is ill-advised because I may be eliminating diamonds that are legitimately "ideal" and would be normally classified as H&A, ACA or AGSO had those diamonds been sold in stores using these classifiers.

Also, sorry if this is redundant, the degree of symmetry/polish are factors, as well as crown/pavilion angles, that modify/enhance the glitter and value of the diamond.

Am I correct

? Somewhat correct

? Dead wrong

?

 

[valeria101]

Bottlecap ! I could not have put it better - for all I know, you are ringt all the way.

You may want to inspect a few well-described diamonds online and see what exactly the range of cut quality you feal good about looks like, and this is it

 

[valeria101]

Actually, now I realize there is no chart sampling H&A or near cut qualities... oh well. There are pitures with such 'samples' and reference models on most sites, including the cut tutorial here, of course.

You could, for example, use both the comments on the H&A pattern in the tutorial here and the IdeaSCope chart as clasiffication tools fro your diamond of choice.

In particular, on the Iscope reference chart you can see that one two of the sample diamonds for "excellent" light return displays the "arrows" and one does not. Only the profile with the aroows is then repeated below as refference for the look of stones with "ideal" symmetry.

I found this chart quite helpful, in this very 'visual'

exercise, although I am suposed to be a 'numbers' ' person

He, he...