Confused about steep/deeps

[sarah95]

Am I correct in that the following stone would be considered a steep/deep? Saw this stone today in sunlight, and it sparkled and faced up white. Something has to be wrong with my eyes. Could this be because the diamond is loose and once it''s set it will have no light return and lose whatever sparkle it has? I really liked this diamond in person but am scared to trust my judgment as the specs aren''t good.

Carat: 3.13
Shape: Round
Cut: excellent
Color: H
Clarity: SI1
Measurements: 9.46-9.41-5.75
Depth: 60.9%
Table: 59%
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Culet: None
Fluorescence: None
Girdle: Medium

 

[Deelight]

You would need to list the crown and pavilion angles before anyone could comment on that

 

[diagem]

Date: 8/18/2008 2:34:07 AM
Author:sarah95
Am I correct in that the following stone would be considered a steep/deep? Saw this stone today in sunlight, and it sparkled and faced up white. Something has to be wrong with my eyes. Could this be because the diamond is loose and once it''s set it will have no light return and lose whatever sparkle it has? I really liked this diamond in person but am scared to trust my judgment as the specs aren''t good.

Carat: 3.13
Shape: Round
Cut: excellent
Color: H
Clarity: SI1
Measurements: 9.46-9.41-5.75
Depth: 60.9%
Table: 59%
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Culet: None
Fluorescence: None
Girdle: Medium

You are realy confused with the term steep/deep..., is the education here on PS in regards to steep/deeps confusing??
This Diamond cannot in any way loose its light return or sparkle once set! (unless you box the Diamond completely [crown and pavilion]

)

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 8/18/2008 3:54:35 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 8/18/2008 2:34:07 AM
Author:sarah95
Am I correct in that the following stone would be considered a steep/deep? Saw this stone today in sunlight, and it sparkled and faced up white. Something has to be wrong with my eyes. Could this be because the diamond is loose and once it's set it will have no light return and lose whatever sparkle it has? I really liked this diamond in person but am scared to trust my judgment as the specs aren't good.

Carat: 3.13
Shape: Round
Cut: excellent
Color: H
Clarity: SI1
Measurements: 9.46-9.41-5.75
Depth: 60.9%
Table: 59%
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Culet: None
Fluorescence: None
Girdle: Medium

You are realy confused with the term steep/deep..., is the education here on PS in regards to steep/deeps confusing??
This Diamond cannot in any way loose its light return or sparkle once set! (unless you box the Diamond completely [crown and pavilion]

)

Ditto DG, I think you might be a bit confused here Sarah, as Dee says we need the crown and pavilion angles to determine ' steepdeepness', so post those and we will take a look for you and advise.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 8/18/2008 3:54:35 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 8/18/2008 2:34:07 AM
Author:sarah95
Am I correct in that the following stone would be considered a steep/deep? Saw this stone today in sunlight, and it sparkled and faced up white. Something has to be wrong with my eyes. Could this be because the diamond is loose and once it''s set it will have no light return and lose whatever sparkle it has? I really liked this diamond in person but am scared to trust my judgment as the specs aren''t good.

Carat: 3.13
Shape: Round
Cut: excellent
Color: H
Clarity: SI1
Measurements: 9.46-9.41-5.75
Depth: 60.9%
Table: 59%
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Culet: None
Fluorescence: None
Girdle: Medium

You are realy confused with the term steep/deep..., is the education here on PS in regards to steep/deeps confusing??
This Diamond cannot in any way loose its light return or sparkle once set! (unless you box the Diamond completely [crown and pavilion]

)

Actually, the OP has probably read this info from Gary, who has posted it more than once. Here is the first example I could find, but he has also said it more recently. (assuming this stone is actually a steep/deep)

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/this-may-sound-stupid-but-i-remember-seeing-a-steep-deep-combo.48196/

 

[sarah95]

Ellen, yes, that is the same post that I looked at.

Here are the crown and pavillion angles:

Crown angle is 34.5
Pavillion is 41.15

 

[Kelli]

Do you have the other stats on it? I wouldn''t buy it without getting them and checking them first. My steep deep looked wonderful in sunlight, but not so hot in other lighting. There is no way to tell if your stone is steep/deep without more info, but DON''T go only on your eyes in sunlight. It took me a while to figure out that mine was, but once I found the "ring of death" it drove me insane! So insane that I''m recutting it now.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 8/18/2008 11:14:56 AM
Author: sarah95
Ellen, yes, that is the same post that I looked at.

Here are the crown and pavillion angles:

Crown angle is 34.5
Pavillion is 41.15

It''s not what we would call a classic steep/deep. Classics are more like 35+/41+.

It is possible this would be a nice stone, but hard to say more without an IS pic.

May I ask who graded this?

 

[Kelli]

Sorry must have posted at the same time. I ran the stats through the HCA. It wouldn''t let me do 41.15, so I tried 41.1 and got 2.9. Then I tried 41.2 and got 3.6. While this may be a decent stone-- as it says "worth buying if the price is right," I think you could do better. Personally I would pass unless you have an idealscope image to look at as well, or you can take it into SEVERAL different lighting scenarios.

 

[strmrdr]

sunlight is not the proper light to evaluate diamonds.

In this case AGS agrees with the hca giving the base combo a potential 4 depending on the other facets.

It is a steep pavilion/normal crown with a smaller table it would make AGS 0.

An IS picture would be nice but I think I would keep looking myself.

 

[sarah95]

Correction, the pavilion is 41, not 41.15. When I do the HCA, I get 2.3

I''m waiting on the Sarin.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 8/18/2008 1:59:16 PM
Author: sarah95
Correction, the pavilion is 41, not 41.15. When I do the HCA, I get 2.3

I''m waiting on the Sarin.

That''s good news!

Gary has said on here that were he to go through a revision of the HCA, there are stones scoring up to 2.5 (now) definitely, but maybe 3 (can''t remember specifically) that could score well under the revision. So this stone has potential. The sarin will definitely help us, help you on this stone.

 

[John P]

That could be a beautiful stone Sarah. I personally would not call it steep/deep. There is sometimes confusion about the term on this site, because the PS community may use it differently than many tradespeople.

The knock on steep/deep is that cutting a round that way is often motivated by weight recovery at the expense of beauty. This is not true in all cases (in colored diamonds steep/deep can entrap & enhance color) but is a certain factor in many instances.

In GIA terms a round’s pavilion would need to be at or near 43 degrees to be considered steep & crown would need to be at or near 40 degrees! (see example 4 below). That questionable piece of work is a true, in-anyone’s book, “steep/deep.” It’s also based on a real example – see here if interested.





A few examples below

When compared to GIA terms the Pricescope regulars tend to be rather strict ; staying within crown & pavilion ranges they know are proven; such as the Modern-Tolk example.

Example 1 (41/35) is what might be considered a borderline steep/deep here on PS. A diamond with these angles can have top light return depending on how precisely it was cut. The graphic below assumes a perfect wire-frame (which no diamond has). A borderline steep/deep may not be this brilliant if it was cut with a lot of variation & asymmetry.

Example 2 (41.8/34.0) has a ‘slightly steep’ pavilion (in official terms) but many people on this site will place it in the steep/deep category because it shows eye-visible leakage. It’s also one of those configurations GIA will give EX to, and I have been known to refer to combos like these as being ‘at the steep/deep side of GIA EX.’

Example 3 (41.4/37.5) has a ‘slightly steep’ crown (in official terms) but paired with the borderline steep pavilion its optics are the same as many stones in the ‘steep/deep’ category. You can find many diamonds in commercial markets with this ‘look.’

Example 4 is extreme and the performance issues are obvious.

[all sims 57%T and m girdle]

It is possible to cut diamonds with steep/deep parameters that have great beauty, but they are not typically found in online lists, discount markets, mall chain stores, etc. Weight-recovery examples are much more prominent.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 8/18/2008 1:59:16 PM
Author: sarah95
Correction, the pavilion is 41, not 41.15. When I do the HCA, I get 2.3


I''m waiting on the Sarin.

depending on minors AGS1 or 2 is the most likely score it doesn''t like the 59% table with that combination.
Which would again agree with the hca score.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 8/18/2008 3:25:31 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 8/18/2008 1:59:16 PM

Author: sarah95

Correction, the pavilion is 41, not 41.15. When I do the HCA, I get 2.3


I''m waiting on the Sarin.

That''s good news!


Gary has said on here that were he to go through a revision of the HCA, there are stones scoring up to 2.5 (now) definitely, but maybe 3 (can''t remember specifically) that could score well under the revision. So this stone has potential. The sarin will definitely help us, help you on this stone.

2.5 on specific combinations.
Mainly because it is to harsh on 41 pavilions in some combos.

This one the hca and ags appear to agree but it may be a beautiful diamond however.
But maybe not the best however you want to define that....

 

[sarah95]

Thank you, thank you, thank you everyone for your help! Thank you for being so thorough in your explanations. I really appreciate it. I have the sarin for this stone. Is there any specific information I should post from it, or should I copy the entire sarin?

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 8/19/2008 12:08:26 AM
Author: sarah95
Thank you, thank you, thank you everyone for your help! Thank you for being so thorough in your explanations. I really appreciate it. I have the sarin for this stone. Is there any specific information I should post from it, or should I copy the entire sarin?

Post the entire Sarin please Sarah

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

If the stone is painted a little it could be ok - for pendants etc - not so hot for a ring.

Never ever do analysis in sunlihgt- shade the diamond, uner trees, in office fluoro''s and halogens etc - naver direct sunlight

 

[sarah95]

I can''t get it to attach, so I''m typing it out:

Shape: ROUND Est. weight: 3.136 cts

Diameter: (9.42mm-9.46mm)9.44mm Table: 58.8% 59%

Crown: 34.62 34.5 Crown Height: 14.25% 14.5%

Pavilion: 41.03 41 Pavilion Depth: 43.38% 43.5%

Star length: 50.3% 50% Lower Halves: 77.3% 75%

Girdle Th: 3.28% 3.5% Required Girdle Min/Max THN-STK

Culet size: 0.4% None/Very Small/Small T. Depth: 60.91% 60.9%

Est.GIA Cut: EXCELLENT Min. Required: Very Good

 

[sarah95]

Sorry to bump this thread, but my fiance is so eager to make a decision on a diamond (as am I), but if the consensus is that I should pass on this stone, I will do so and start the search again. Just wondering if the sarin sways this stone into the "yay" category, or the "nay" category.

Once again, thanks everyone for your input. I''m so glad I found PS!

 

[strmrdr]

Personally if I could find and afford a better cut stone I would.
Otherwise I would consider this one.

 

[Lorelei]

Sarah, depending on the price of this diamond, you could certainly find a tighter cut, but it depends on the budget, timeframe and various other factors. It could certainly be a attractive diamond, maybe if you want to pursue this one further, get a professional opinion from an independant appraiser to help you decide. Use this tool here to find one in your area.

https://www.pricescope.com/appr_list.aspx

 

[sarah95]

Thank you again everyone. I think I will keep looking. This diamond is $23000.

 

[kcoursolle]

Date: 8/19/2008 7:40:13 PM
Author: sarah95
Thank you again everyone. I think I will keep looking. This diamond is $23000.

Is this for a GIA certed stone or EGL? If it''s GIA, this is a pretty good deal. The diamond isn''t poorly cut, but it''s not super cherry either. It''s not steep/deep technically, but the table is slightly large.

 

[sarah95]

kcoursolle, it''s an EGL stone.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 8/19/2008 8:16:27 PM
Author: kcoursolle

Date: 8/19/2008 7:40:13 PM
Author: sarah95
Thank you again everyone. I think I will keep looking. This diamond is $23000.

Is this for a GIA certed stone or EGL? If it's GIA, this is a pretty good deal. The diamond isn't poorly cut, but it's not super cherry either. It's not steep/deep technically, but the table is slightly large.

Good question, definitely cheap foir this size. ETA, typing while Sarah was!

Here's a somewhat comperable stone from WF, priced at 40,290.00

http://www.whiteflash.com/round_ideal_cut/Round-Ideal-Cut-cut-diamond-1225156.htm#


And a killer cut from GOG. Man, if I were a size girl, and rich....

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/4527/

 

[sarah95]

Sorry to resurrect this old thread. I have decided on a GIA diamond, but saw this 3.13 diamond again yesterday, as the dealer offered me to see it one last time before he sent the stone back. My Fiance and I decided to see it just for the heck of it. I decided against this stone since it''s an EGL Israel stone and I''ve read tons on how they grade softly and can be off by 2 color/clarity grades. I decided I couldn''t trust my eyes and it must be at least a J colored, SI2/I1 stone. I saw it yesterday in office building light and outside in natural light (shade) and also in sunlight, since I couldn''t avoid the sun completely. It had a nice play of colors and seemed to face up white. The dealer thinks it''s probably an I and agrees that EGL Israel is usually off, but he thinks the clarity is right. To me it is eyeclean. He is okay with sending the stone to GIA (we would have to pay for it) or if we want to take it to an independent appraiser (we have 15 days to return it), but we think it''s just easier to buy a GIA stone. My question is, knowing that EGL Israel color & clarity are usually always off, is it that difficult for a layman to pick up on such a big color difference? As I mentioned earlier, I don''t trust my eyes, but I wonder why I didn''t see a lot of warmth or yellow if the stone is possibly a J. As far as the clarity, there are only a few small marks on the plot. The biggest inclusion I can see through the loupe is a black swirly spot in the pavilion, so maybe that would lower the clarity to SI2. I guess I''m just upset with myself that I couldn''t visually tell how off this EGL Isreal stone is.

 

[Lorelei]

Sarah, an independant appraisal is your best bet if you want to pursue this diamond and make the sale final on it checking out to your satisfaction. It is difficult I know, maybe you would be better buying a GIA graded diamond, if so then it would cost considerably more. I don't know if you want to increase the budget to try to find a 3 carat with a GIA report, or if you want a large diamond for less money....If that is the case, then this diamond has a decent cut, it may be worth getting an unbiased opinion from an appraiser. As to the colour, it is so hard to say - I have a large EGL L colour which faces up soft white, you can see a tiny warm tint from the side in some light, but to me unless you are looking at around N colour and above, a diamond does not look yellow or even tinted face up, so don't be upset with yourself. All you can do is to go with what appeals to you, I think it is easy for consumers to think that J and above will be yellow, especially if non GIA graded and it isn't always the case! Check this diamond out in as many different lights as you can to make sure it appeals to you in the lighting conditions it will be worn in, and also check carefully for visible inclusions. These can pop out in some lights and not in others.