Completely indecisive

[allycat0303]

Hey everyone,

I''ve been sitting on a dilemma for about 1 month now and I can''t make a decision. Last night my guy got really angry and frustrated at me because I haven''t made any progress with wedding plans.

As many of you know my relationship with my sister has been very, very strained for a while with some very scary blow ups, and of course the fact that she upsurped my date for the wedding.

In any case, about a month ago, she and her fiance would not go through with the wedding (in the forseeable future). Although they are still engaged. It was surprising, because she wanted to be married as quickly as possible and had acted badly in the process. Usually I stay out of all business concerning FBIL, because it''s a really nasty subject between us but this time I pushed it because I wanted to know why. She started off by saying that it was because there have been some scary sceen with FBIL (which I''ve known) and that she wasn''t sure they wanted the same things. And I was pressing her for details. And she dropped a bombshell on me.

I feel terrible because all of her friends knew (it was common knowledge to everyone except our family), but she never told me. And we used to be so close. My sister discovered about 1 1/2 years ago that she won''t be able to concieve children. She is beyond devestated. She explained everything to me and it was like a light bulb on everything. Her erratic behavior, why she wanted so badly to get married quickly. She told me that for the past year she has hated me. And I don''t blame her because in retrospect I''ve said things that in her situation would have been insane. For example we would talk about children, and I would tell her how I didn''t want any, that being a mother wasn''t important to me. In retrospect I am deeply ashamed because being in her position....I don''t even know how I would react. She also told me that she didn''t feel like she could tell me because she didn''t think I would be able to relate to her pain at all, because I''m so anti-children. I don''t know what to do for her, or what to say. She loves children. She is very, very family and motherhood oriented. It''s one of her strongest qualites and I''ve always wished i had that quality. She has told me repeatedly that the worst thing that could happen to her is if she didn''t have children. She is in couple''s conselling with her fiance, and she''s joined an online and community support group. And for the first time, I feel that they are making the right step. My sister apologized for the things that have been done in the past, and she also told me it would make her really happy if I would get married on the original date I had planned because she wants to set things right.

So now I''m not sure what to do and where to do it.

Italy pros:

a) I can''t seem to muster up a stitch of enthusiam for all of the issues that are going to come with getting married here. My parents are going to make all sorts of demands for what is deemed *proper*. The whole Vietnamese community scrutinizing my figure trying to discern whether or not I''m *pregenent* and HAVE to get married.

b) I was set on a wedding in Italy. For many reasons, including the fact that I am deadly afraid of any more drama or ugly scenes.

c) I''m also hurt that my parents (who are still not aware of the true nature of my sister''s problem) sided with her and her fiance. A part of me is deeply hurt that with the knowledge they had, I was considered less important then my sister. They were willing to disown me if I didn''t give in to their wishes and regardless of how blasé I''ve seemed about it, that really, really hurt. However, I know I''m being a baby, holding onto this.

d) My guy has also put a deposit on the villa, so we''d also lose that.

e) And I have serious reservations about having this wedding in Quebec. I don''t want my sister to feel bad in any way shape or form. Although she insists on it, I can''t help feeling like it would be wrong, because I know that what she is going through must be like a death. If I got married in Italy (eloped) she wouldn''t have to go if she didn''t want to. It feels like it would be insensitive to have my wedding when she''ll be thinking she was supposed to get married (and yes, it was originally my wedding date, but considering what she has been through, I definitely do not hold it against her.)

Italy cons:

a) Then there''s my FMIL. She and I are very, very, very close. She is a doll. She REALLY doesn''t want me to get married in Italy. She wants me to have a wedding here, so that all her family could attend. She even offered to pay for her guests at the reception. Now we were 100% set on paying for the wedding ourselves. For many reasons

- we don''t need the money
- I don''t want money conflicts. I hate them, and since the finances aren''t an issue I want to be spared the headache
- I hate feeling obligated to do anything.

I *suspect* she is offerring because she can then feel less guilty of putting some pressure on me to have the wedding in Quebec. But regardless of whether or not I''m having the wedding in Quebec or Italy, I am DEFINITELY NOT going to accept financial help. So is it rude to turn down a financial contribution by the parents? And how to word it?

b) And then there''s my guy. He *says* anywhere is fine. But my gut feeling is that he wants to have a traditional wedding with his family. He''s never said it, but I feel that this is what it wants.
For some reason, the solution is really not evident to me. So, where should I have this wedding? And how do I tell his parents we don''t want a financial contribution. My guy is ready to throttle me. I have a 4 week space next year to get married and if I don''t book, then there won''t be a wedding next year.

Thanks ladies! (sorry for the novel) I just wanted to make sure it''s the whole story. My friends are all in Europe for the summer, so I haven''t gotten any solid advice.

 

[Pandora II]

My feeling is you should go with the original date and your original gorgeous venue.

I am sorry for your sister''s problems, but no matter what one goes through (and whilst one might be understanding of strange behaviour) it is never fair to inflict it on other people. You cannot hide your marriage from your sister - will you hide any future children you might have so as not to upset her.

She thought very little about upsetting you. She needs to get help and counselling - she is not your responsibility.

 

[iheartscience]

You really should not feel bad for still being upset with your family. You are not being a baby! I am seriously shocked that they treat you the way that they do and you still even speak to them!

As far as the wedding goes, maybe you can still get married in Italy and then have a big reception so that your fiance''s family can attend?

Whatever you do, don''t change your date back to the original date just to assuage your sister''s guilt. She treated you terribly and it doesn''t really matter what she was going through. That''s great that she''s getting counseling now, but there is really no excuse for her behavior towards you.

I know I don''t know you at all, but I''ve read your previous threads and it really bothers me that you are treated so poorly by your family...I can''t even imagine how hard that would be.

I hope you can somehow still enjoy your wedding after all the abuse you have been subjected to by your sister and parents because of it.

 

[FireGoddess]

Hey doll.

First, don''t beat yourself up about convos you''ve had with your sister or telling her you didn''t want kids. There is no way you could have known what she was going through unless she told you. For whatever reason, she chose not to, which was a mistake on her part. But she told you now, and of course you feel for her, but don''t beat yourself up over something you couldn''t have known.

My reaction is that if I were you I would still have the wedding in Italy. The pros seem to definitely outweigh the cons. If your FI were really set on only having the wedding in Quebec he wouldn''t have gone through with the plans for Italy. Yes, I see where your FMIL is coming from but in the end it is your wedding and your memories and your happiness. It is clear that having the wedding in Italy would make you the happiest and I really vote for sticking with that. You could always have a reception in Quebec, as someone mentioned. I think that after all the drama, you should stick with this Italy plan you''ve developed. It sounds like the best option. Good luck girl.

 

[allycat0303]

Pandora, 2thing2,

Thanks for the advice ladies! It's such a relief to be able to bounce around ideas. My friends are having in europe having a blast, and my guy is too involved.

I tend to be very empathetic in general (I once cried in front of a patient that was crying). I think the reason I feel so much responsibility for my sister is that I raised her. She is only 2 years younger but my mom was away building her company and I did everything a mother would do. So I tend to look at her behavior as more *a mother would* then a sister. If that makes sense. My family always says I am the mother of 2 children, and that's why I'm not anxious to have more. I already feel as though most of my youth was spent raising children. AND IT WAS HARD!

I honestly can see how it might look to people on the outside that my family treats me bad, but honestly, my parents are very, very traditional asian, and expect unquestioned obedience and sacrifice for the family name (this is especially true for the oldest daughter). It's culturally ingrained, and really not that uncommon with some of my Vietnamese friends. And honestly in terms of material and unquestioning support for my education, my mom would have lived in a cardboard box before she let me lack in anything in those areas. I was very privileged growing up. Maybe that's why I feel like such a bad person for being hurt about any of this.

Although 2thing2, you did bring up a really smart point which I hadn't considered before. Maybe my sister just feels guilty, and really won't be crazy about this whole idea

. I think that would be setting me up for more problems. As for the reception in Italy, most of his family wouldn't attend. And the person his mom most wants to attend is his grandmother (she's quite elderly, I think 83-84 years old) and she wouldn't be able to make the trip. I think that's the main reason FMIL wants the wedding in Quebec. Personally, FMIL would leap at the opportunity to see Italy.

Oh and I forgot to mention. I am REALLY, REALLY mortified at the thought of having to go to the same venue and saying "oh I put a deposit, I cancelled and now I want to rebook for the same day" the woman is going to the think I am a moron and a flake. So like it or not, potential embarrassement really factors in too

Aww Firegoddess, your posts are always so smart and spot on. You never fail to pick me up and make me feel better. It's exactly what I needed. I don't know what I want, and I'm hoping that when you read the post you can tell what I want (it's like some long distance...read Ally's mind PLEASE!). Now there's a really great option. Reception here later. Definitely something I'm going to talk about tonight with my baby. Hugs! Thank you a zillion times.

 

[E B]

Though your sister is being nice (and feeling guilty) now, what if she becomes Mr. Hyde again? I think you've mentioned that her anger and abuse came from left field. I can completely understand why you're sympathetic, but it shouldn't erase OR excuse how awful she was in the past. I'd hate to see you set yourself up for another huge blow-up, just in case your sister changes her mind. You already know which side your parents would take.

Date: 6/28/2007 1:41:38 PM
Author: allycat0303

As for the reception in Italy, most of his family wouldn't attend. And the person his mom most wants to attend is his grandmother (she's quite elderly, I think 83-84 years old) and she wouldn't be able to make the trip. I think that's the main reason FMIL wants the wedding in Quebec. Personally, FMIL would leap at the opportunity to see Italy.

If I were you, I'd have a small, private ceremony (with just the two of you, or your immediate family) in Italy on the day you'd originally planned. Then, when you return to Quebec, have a beautiful reception that everyone can come to. You can renew your vows for all to see, and that way, everyone's happy.

It seems as though the smaller and further away the event, the less chance you have of your sister doing a 180 and ruining it.

 

[surfgirl]

Ally, I didn''t realize you''re Vietnamese. I work alot of Vietnam and I totally understand the family dynamic you speak of. I feel for you, and no, your parents dont hate you, it''s just "their way" in terms of cultural differences in handling such situations. Plus, your sister is older, right? In which case it would be very important to your parents to have her married off first.

Go to Italy dear. It will be the most magical elopement and you''ll have a magnificent honeymoon built in. If money isn''t an issue, then hire a coordinator to do all the paperwork there for you in advance. And have a reception when you come home, so FI''s family can celebrate with you! ENJOY! You have amazing options!

 

[janinegirly]

hi alley,
i''m so sorry to hear about your sister--that is a blow and it''s tough when someone really wants children. Do you know how she knows for sure?

as for your wedding plans, i say go with original date and location. you can''t please everyone, and your FI has already put down a deposit and plans are underway, so better to keep things going. don''t overanalyze, italy is a dream, so seems like an easy decision!!
good luck with it all...

 

[allycat0303]

surfgirl: My sister is younger, but she's marrying a Vietnamese guy whose parents are very active in the Viet community (so there would be more talk about her wedding then mine. And they are much more worried about the the community *talking* about my sister then me).

I didn't know you worked a lot in Vietnam...that's so intresting! What do you do? I understand how my family might be precieved as being *mean* but they're not. Just very rigid when it comes to their cultural beliefs. I've always been very accepting about cultural practices, so this one included. It does *hurt* but I in no way think they hate me. I wish that they had cared about who was right and who was wrong rather then "how do we save face" but that's the way it has always been.

ETA: Surfgirl, when I saw you avatar I said "oh it's been a while since I looked at that ring" and then I hunted up the old thread. I LOVE your ring. Gorgeous, gorgeous (and huge too

that never hurts)

Ebree: I didn't want to say it, but I am a little concerned about the 180 thing. Before I got engaged, my sister seemed really positive and for it but on the day of the engagement, she burst into tears because it wasn't her getting engaged (she's 2 years younger though, and has been with her guy for 5 years, while I've been with him for 11 years). So I know that her feelings can change quickly, or she may say one thing and mean another. I do think that the furthur away the better, much less stress for me, I think I am wavering because it seems as though when I break it down, I'm the only one that WANTS an Italy wedding, and everyone else prefers a wedding here (which ding, ding..makes me very, very selfish).

 

[E B]

Date: 6/28/2007 2:32:31 PM
Author: allycat0303

Ebree: I didn't want to say it, but I am a little concerned about the 180 thing. Before I got engaged, my sister seemed really positive and for it but on the day of the engagement, she burst into tears because it wasn't her getting engaged (she's 2 years younger though, and has been with her guy for 5 years, while I've been with him for 11 years). So I know that her feelings can change quickly, or she may say one thing and mean another. I do think that the furthur away the better, much less stress for me, I think I am wavering because it seems as though when I break it down, I'm the only one that WANTS an Italy wedding, and everyone else prefers a wedding here (which ding, ding..makes me very, very selfish).

It sounds as though several important people are having a cultural/traditional mind-clean problem here, which is putting a lot of strain on you. But since you and FH are paying and family hasn't been a whole lot of emotional support, I'd do what the *TWO OF YOU* want first and foremost.

From what I've read, it sounds like the best solution might be to hop on a plane with FH, have a private, just-the-two-of-you ceremony in Italy (followed by a nice honeymoon

) and upon arriving to Quebec, have a ring blessing ceremony (or something similar) and reception at home for everyone else.

I know this has been said again and again, but you can't please everyone. When you think back to your wedding day in 10, 20, or 50 years, what will be most important? The memories of a wedding that everyone else wanted, or the wedding that means the least amount of stress and heartache for you and FH?

Good luck, Ally. It isn't an easy decision, and I hope you find the best road.

 

[VRBeauty]

I''m going to go against the flow here. I think you should have your wedding in Quebec, where both of your families can attend, and then have a wonderful honeymoon in Italy. Why?

1) having family there is important to your FI.... your main supporter through this ordeal

2) you are basically ambivalent

So of the really important votes, that''s one for a local wedding, one abstention.

I know there are also good reasons to get married in Italy, but I think the fact that you can''t seem to muster up the energy to plan a the wedding there also says a lot.

 

[FireGoddess]

Date: 6/28/2007 3:29:24 PM
Author: MINIMS
I''m going to go against the flow here. I think you should have your wedding in Quebec, where both of your families can attend, and then have a wonderful honeymoon in Italy. Why?

1) having family there is important to your FI.... your main supporter through this ordeal

2) you are basically ambivalent

Not to try and psychoanalyze Allycat right in front of her! and without even knowing her IRL! but I think what you''re interpreting as ambivalence is actually Ally being overly empathetic to the others around her instead of thinking of herself. And based on her past situations...I think it''s time she chose herself!!!

Just wanted to comment on that. Carry on.

 

[surfgirl]

Date: 6/28/2007 2:32:31 PM
Author: allycat0303
surfgirl: My sister is younger, but she's marrying a Vietnamese guy whose parents are very active in the Viet community (so there would be more talk about her wedding then mine. And they are much more worried about the the community *talking* about my sister then me).

I didn't know you worked a lot in Vietnam...that's so intresting! What do you do? I understand how my family might be precieved as being *mean* but they're not. Just very rigid when it comes to their cultural beliefs. I've always been very accepting about cultural practices, so this one included. It does *hurt* but I in no way think they hate me. I wish that they had cared about who was right and who was wrong rather then 'how do we save face' but that's the way it has always been.

ETA: Surfgirl, when I saw you avatar I said 'oh it's been a while since I looked at that ring' and then I hunted up the old thread. I LOVE your ring. Gorgeous, gorgeous (and huge too

that never hurts)

Ally, I work in international public health and I've worked almost exclusively in VN for the last 3 years but have been working there on and off since 1994. It's changed so much over that time but I really love it there. I have the closest VN friends there (all from teams I've worked with over the years), and I even started learning VN 2 years ago! So...I should say:

Em oi! Em khoe khong? Chi khoe...

Okay, enough showing off, really I learned it to be able to say things like "ve sinh au dao" or "mot cafe den va nem Saigon!" Stuff like that.

Annnyway, yeah, I can totally understand that if you're marrying a non-VN and your sister IS marrying a VN guy, she'd be their priority since it's more expected that things will be done a certain way, right? She'd probably be expected to at least have one change into an Ao Dai, right? Someone will be contacted to determine the best day to wed. Offerings will be made at the ancestral alter to bless the marriage. Things like that. Parents bringing the traditional red laquer wedding boxes to the home laden with rice cakes, and sweets, yes? I can see where that would be more splashy and socially relevant to your folks, than a western style wedding that you seem to be leaning towards...And you cant really fault your parents for that. They lived through a horrible time in the '70's, managed to be one of the lucky ones that got out, and their cultural identity through events like weddings are one of the few things they can do living in the west to really connect to their roots, their past, their upbringing and how it was done "back in the home country", right? As much as those Viet Kieu I know here love living in No. America, those that fled VN during the war ALL miss their home country terribly. So I can understand that a child's wedding is an incredibly visceral connection to their roots and family history, albeit, carried on in a new country, but carried on nonetheless.

OTOH, I'm sure they dont really think less of your wedding, it's probably just that they really cant identify or relate to what you'd like for your wedding, compared to a more traditional VN wedding.

That said, it seemed like YOU really wanted to go to Italy. If your FI is good with that decision, I think the wedding/honeymoon in Italy, and a reception at home afterwards is the best win win scenario. I wish I could afford to get married in Italy, if you want me to be honest! I cant think of a more romantic place (other than Fiji!)...

ETA: I keep forgetting to say that I LOVE your crazy cat avatar so much! It always makes me laugh! And thanks for the nice words about my ring. I do love it.

Perhaps more than one should for an inanimate object!

 

[cara]

What does your guy actually want? Its clear that he wants you to make a decision and that he has a deposit on a villa in Italy. But why do you suspect he really wants to get married in Quebec but woln''t say it? If he wants a decision from you, and you hem and haw, then he owes it to you to voice a preference and some reasoning. He should also be called upon to make some estimated guesses of which would be better for you, given that he has been your companion through all this wedding drama.

What do you actually want? You have given us a detailed run through of the emotional minefield. We know you are not excited for Italy, but that could just be desensitization from the whole drama about wedding. We know you are very afraid for bad family drama things if you have the wedding in Quebec. We know you worry about people talking if you get married in Italy. We know you worry about how to turn down money. But what do you want? Yes, some consideration of potential drama is warranted. If avoiding drama is now your primary consideration, then you have your choice (Italy). But you need to be somewhat excited about the choice, even if the bulk of your happiness is making your FI happy or seizing control of the situation.

Don''t worry about people talking about why you got married in Italy. Life is too short. Don''t worry about turning down money from the in-laws - just thank them profusely, protest politely, and direct any further generosity where you want it to go - say the rehersal dinner or honeymoon or other traditional domain of the groom''s family that you don''t want to organize. Last, while you clearly feel for your sister and that is good, you should not forget all the abuse she heaped on you recently. If she were truly a mothering soul, she would not have attacked and undermined you so viciously and attempted to destroy your happiness in retribution for her own misfortune. So while you are a good sister to worry a small bit about how she feels at your wedding, do not let that be an overriding factor in your decision here! She hasn''t earned that. Sit down with your FI and make a decision together, in your own best interests. That is the best advice I can give.

 

[allycat0303]

Well I talked to my guy last night, and he told me that he really wants to have the wedding here (I had to force it out of him, but it's not as if I really didn't know) the past few weeks he's been reconnecting with some old friends and he would say something like "So and so got married here, and he said it was the most amazing time with his friends and family". My guy is also concerned that if we are going to get married in Italy, a lot of the Viet community will talk, and although I don't have a lot of contact with them, it's still a point of pride with him. He wants everyone to see us as married (and in the most traditional/by the book/no possible gossip way possible). He also said he won't *feel married* if we do a courthouse/civil wedding in Italy. BUT that being said, he also knows that the things that have happened so far have gotten me really down, so he's putting aside what he really wants. He also talked to his mom last night about the financial contribution thing, putting out some feelers, telling her it was appreciated but really not necessary. And she became really insistent, saying that my guy's father was getting much older (he's 73 but stronger then a horse. The man has repainted our entire house TWICE) and that he really wants to do this because he's not going to be around forever and he really wants to be a part of this process. I also got the impression that being part of the process was subtly meant *here*. So that's a little stalled right now on that front. Bottom line: My guy really wants to have a traditional wedding, in a church, in front of his friends and family, with a reception that follows. But he wants to be married even more, so he's not going to push for it.

As for me. Well I don't know what I really want. When I first booked the place in Quebec, I was REALLY excited. It fit everything that me and my guy wanted for our wedding. There was a hall and church overlooking the water. Really, it didn't get more perfect for water obsessed people. We even got our anniversary date, which is something that was really important to me. But when my sister booked on the same day as us, it was really hard for me to accept that it was NOT HAPPENING. PERIOD. I held onto it for too long, hoping that it would work out because I was attached to the date and to the place. But with all of the stuff that happened afterward, with my parents, FBIL, and my sister, it all lost it's luster for me. Briefly excited for the dress, but everything else has been "blah". And there is the inevitable drama. HOW are you gals even going to put up with some of the ranting I'm going to be doing

???? For all I know, I can re-book my hall (and look like a total fool in the process), and my sister might change her mind and decide she *ABSOLUTELY* wants to get married on that very day. Even my guy mentioned that it is a possibility. She would just book it again and we could replay the same scenario we had a few months ago

. I can't really predict what she will do, and I don't want to be perpetually waiting for the ax to fall. As for Italy, I NEED to see Italy (I swear my heart seizes up at the thought). We decided that regardless of how it turns out, we could always honeymoon at the villa, so the deposit won't be lost. Bottom line: I think Italy is the lesser of the two evils. Our wedding would not be ideal, but I could be nice and sane for the process. And sanity is a good thing. I think even if we booked a place and planned a wedding here, there would probably be no garantees it would actually happen until January/February when FBIL and my sister probably wouldn't be able to book a hall on that day. And there's the worry about what might actually happen *on the wedding day* the tea ceremony, the engagement party. There are many occasions where I can't predict how she is going to feel or react. I don't know if she's going to be able to deal with all of this. And with FBIL too, who let's face it, hates my guts, and is going to be very eager to make us look bad in front of the Viet community. He's not on board with the postphonement of ANY of this.

MIMINS: I am keeping tally of what people think too

. Actually, all their points helps me work through what my vote REALLY is. And I do agree that family is important for him.

Surfgirl: Well you certainly know a lot about the culture! Both my sister and I would have the same amount of Vietnamese elements in our weddings. We were basically having almost identical weddings except that she previously had a massively gorgeous hall. Actually hers was actually less Viet in the sense that she was serving suishi for in addition to the french food, where else I was going to do 3 traditional Viet courses in addition to the french food. I don't think they thought less of my wedding. I just think that they gave in to my sister's demands because they didn't want a scandal in the Viet community. But she was wrong, so I think what they should have done was exerted some pressure on her to change her date, or at least convince her that I could have a wedding in the same year. Funny but writing that, I realize that I DO resent them for all this. Maybe I ressent them more then my sister because they didn't stand up for me. I don't know. A small protest or something would have been really appreciated. I don't think the outcome would have changed, but it would have made me feel that they valued my feelings as much as my sister's.

Actually funny thing but my guy posted something on this site a while back and he had a matching avatar except it was my other cat Smokey. I think his was actually a nicer avatar. Let me post it for you, because my cat Smokey is really hot

.

Cara: Phew! That's some really strong advice (and really complete too)! You're right that I need to try and eliminate the other people in this. We talked about that last night and tried to set down what we wanted, but we didn't end up with a fixed decision. We were also trying to decide on paint color for the basement...and if you think I'm indecisive about this

. It wasn't productive last night in terms of decisions.

Thanks for taking the time to respond. My guy is following this thread too, we're hoping we'll sort it all out by this weekend.

 

[ljmorgan]

Your fiance sounds like an amazing guy! If my husband had told me that we were getting married in a place that my family really couldn''t be there, I would have told him to take a hike. It sounds like he is being very supportive of you, and putting aside what he really wants so that you don''t have to deal with the drama. I really hope that your sister stays supportive and that you can enjoy the wedding process!

 

[princesss]

Ok, I think you have every right to feel hurt that your parents didn''t stand up for you. I haven''t had a chance to check the backstory (I''m going to search through posts in a bit) but it sounds like you''re upset because when your sister decided to book the same day for her wedding they didn''t say, "Hey, I don''t think that''s very nice." They backed her. It seems like you feel that''s unfair, and I''d say it is. Was there any mediation? Because it seems like it could have stopped a lot of heartache between you and your parents if there had been...even something as simple as sitting down with them and your sister and talking about it as a family trying to find a solution that fit for everybody. Would it be possible to talk to your parents about your hurt feelings, or would it make things worse? But I do think it''s fair that you''re hurt about that.

And the money...I take it there''s absolutely no way his parents would take the amount they''re willing to contribute and put it towards flying good friends out to Italy to celebrate with you? It seems like that could solve some issues. You could have friends and family around, go to Italy (I don''t blame you for wanting to go there so badly...it really is an amazing country!), and get married.

I agree with Cara, do something that makes you excited about it! Do something that makes you anxious (in a good way) for the day to just be here already, dangit! It sounds like you have a wonderful, supportive FI, and I am crossing my fingers that you two figure out a way for this to work.

As for your sister: anything could potentially set her off. Would it be possible to put a deposit on a place and just not say anything until it''s too late for her to book on the same day? Send out surprise invitations that say "Guess what? The wedding''s back on and it''s here!" She kept a huge secret from you that completely affected the way she treated you...I know it''s spiteful but I guess I don''t see much wrong with taking back your original day and running with it no matter the effect it has on her. If you''re not comfortable being that sneaky, I understand. But I figured I''d put out all the options I could think of, not just the nice ones.

 

[NYCsparkle]

Ally for once put yourself first and have the wedding the way YOU and your fiance want. i''d talk to your parents about the original date with your sister there and make sure she tells your fam that she gives her blessing, that way if theres a problem you can always say that you had her blessing. i think your sister realizes she was taking her anger out on you and thats why she opened up to you. keep the lines of communication open and she may surprise you with how much she supports you and your relationship.

remember ultimately the day is about the 2 of you. regardless of outside drama the 2 of you will become your own family at the end of the ceremony and everyone else comes second. take care of your relationship with your fiance, because he''s the one you will grow old with and who will be there through thick and thin.

I wanted to get married away, but dh wanted to see me walk down the aisle in church--he said he dreamed of me walking to him---i agreed that it would be special...and it was.

on that day i could have cared less if just me and him were there. whoever comes will come and those who don''t--oh well. you can''t be responsible for everyones crappy behavior. you and your fiance should be enjoying this time instead of stressing. and if january comes and she takes the date back--oh well...i''d go on with your wedding as planned. those who truely love you will be there to support you. you know your relationship is strong, so go for it!--send out those save the dates soon

.

its unfortunate that she can''t have kids, but technology is amazing--my cousin can''t either, yet she is looking into implanting her fertilized egg in another woman that way the child will be 100% her and her husbands. there are so many options for childless couples now. you can''t feel bad for things you have said. having children is not for everyone and she has to realize that.

 

[aljdewey]

Ok, I had this whole thing typed....and then I read further to what you and FI discussed.

My initial reaction was to say "stay with Italy".....it was the first thing you'd done on your OWN and was on the right path to making your own decisions.

But Ally......when you boil it all down, this wedding isn't about your parents, your sister, the VN community or anyone else, really. It's about HIM and YOU. Period.

If I were in your shoes, I guess I'd really appreciate how much FI wanted to make me happy by agreeing to marry in Italy even though he wanted something else. That said, I don't know that I'd want to plan a wedding where my FI "wouldn't feel married".

I think that's what you need to worry about focusing on....how you'll feel, and how he'll feel.


My husband was married previously......and he married at the local city hall. He said very much what your FI is saying....that it didn't feel like he got married. It was the equivalent of going to register his car - nothing special at all. From that experience, he felt strongly about having an actual "wedding" in front of family....and this came from a guy who's PAINFULLY shy about being in front of people. There's a lot to be said for that.

I'd plan the wedding as you would have....with a firm commitment you make to yourself that you aren't going to be bullied off course this time. If sis changes her mind, too bad. If parents don't like it, too bad.

Plan what means something to YOU and FI. Decline the offer of help from FMIL, and plan something scaled back but inclusive of family/close friends, and take the honeymoon to Italy.

That's my advice.

 

[Pandora II]

I'm going to throw something out here, because it's been bothering me all day:

Ally, are you sure that your sister is telling you the truth about being unable to have children?

It's just I've known two other girls who said the exact same thing (one was my brother's ex) and both times they were lying to get attention and for who knows what reason.

On the other hand I know several people who are unable to have children. One of them had chemo for cancer which made her infertile. The others had batteries of tests following years of trying to get pregnant.

It just strikes me that it is unlikely that your sister could have been given such a definite answer without you or her family knowing about all the tests that she was having.

I hope this isn't too harsh, but I'd hate to see you taken for a fool like my brother was.

 

[LAJennifer]

Date: 6/29/2007 12:57:49 PM
Author: Pandora II
I''m going to throw something out here, because it''s been bothering me all day:

Ally, are you sure that your sister is telling you the truth about being unable to have children?

It''s just I''ve known two other girls who said the exact same thing (one was my brother''s ex) and both times they were lying to get attention and for who knows what reason.

On the other hand I know several people who are unable to have children. One of them had chemo for cancer which made her infertile. The others had batteries of tests following years of trying to get pregnant.

It just strikes me that it is unlikely that your sister could have been given such a definite answer without you or her family knowing about all the tests that she was having.

I hope this isn''t too harsh, but I''d hate to see you taken for a fool like my brother was.

I thought the same thing. Also, I thought that the "reason" she took Ally''s wedding date was so they could start having children - since Ally doesn''t yet want children, she shouldn''t mind letting her sister get married first. But now she is saying that she has known for a year and a half that she "can''t" have children. If so, then why all the fuss about getting married first? Just seems fishy . . .

 

[allycat0303]

Ugh. When you''re home alone on a friday night it''s because things are NOT going well....my guy and I just had a HUGE fight about....believe it or not, paint for our basement. I chose a color, his father painted it, and now I don''t think I like it. In any case, I mentioned my concern and he started yelling and me, and there you go. Messy fight. I think he''s just frustrated at me, but I felt bad, so I went home. Which stinks because it was supposed to be us spending some alone time together. Blah. This is starting to fray at the seams, because he usually doesn''t yell at me for my pathetic inability to home decorate properly. I think he''s as stressed out about this as I am.

LAJennifer, Pandora: Well I never considered that she would be lying. I doubt it because we''ve always both been very truthful about EVERYTHING. Basically we''re firm believers that if you say it and it isn''t true then it WILL happen. My sister is a 4 th year med student. She has all sorts of contacts, resources which she could use to get extensive tests without me knowing. I believe the reason she really wanted to get married first is that she wants to seal the deal with the guy (she only told him very recently about this...YIKES I Know). She believes that no one will ever want her because of this (I can''t stress how much emphasis she puts on childbearing, to her it''s the most fundamental part of her identity).

aljdewey: I really wish he had told me from the beginning that he wouldn''t feel married. I didn''t know that was the extent of it, because he did all the planning and research for the venue. So, although I knew it wasn''t his ideal, I really thought he was on board about it. But you''re right. Italy is probably not an option because I really want him to be happy about it too. And he mentioned getting a liscence plate for his car as a comparision. So yeah. My guy probably feels like your guy. And you''re right, realistically, Italy should no longer be an option.

princess: heehee, you''re options are all devious which is hilarious. I have a tendency toward deviousness sometimes too. I''m pretty sure my sister would ask me outright. And she knows which type of dates I''m partial too. And my parents would have to know because 6 months before the wedding there is an obligatory (written in stone) engagement party. I would also feel terrible if I contribute to her pain. It''s like now, she has even more leverage. If she wanted to have a wedding next year, I would not hesitate in the slightest to put off my plans. I would feel like I was just contributing to her pain. If it''s pity, whatever, I don''t know, but I KNOW myself, and there''s no way I would battle her on anything right now.

 

[cara]

Date: 6/29/2007 9:33:57 PM

...realistically, Italy should no longer be an option.

...I would also feel terrible if I contribute to her pain. It''s like now, she has even more leverage. If she wanted to have a wedding next year, I would not hesitate in the slightest to put off my plans. I would feel like I was just contributing to her pain. If it''s pity, whatever, I don''t know, but I KNOW myself, and there''s no way I would battle her on anything right now.

Ally, I''m really routing for you and your guy to have a happy wedding... but I have to ask...

is it fair to your FI for you two to plan a wedding in Quebec if you know that you will just cancel it if your sister pulls anymore shenanigans?

i really don''t mean to pile it on in what must be a very difficult situation, but you should really think this through. if you really could not put your sister in any pain, and you allow her to define what causes her pain and will grant any ridiculous request she makes at any time in the future (that you put off your wedding for years, let her get married on your day, cancel the wedding the month before, etc.), where does that leave your marriage in the hierarchy of your life? or your FI?

at the very least, if you know yourself and your limitations, maybe you should start the planning by asking your parents and sister for their blessings of your new wedding date. and even if they give it, i would hope hope hope that you would not plan the Quebec wedding again without some confidence, in yourself, that you will be able to follow through with it even if your parents or sister falter.

you said you may not want kids, and your sister clearly does, so might it help to think of your sister as a child? a child to whom something truly horrible and devastating has happened to and who is now acting out horribly. if you let this child act out without any discipline or limitations just because of their situation, you are not doing the child any favors. Despite the devastation, you still need to set limits about appropriate behavior and inappropriate behavior and show the child lots of love at the same time. your sister may need your love and support in the future, but she also needs expectations that she act like an adult, a capable adult, in dealing with her pain. For you take any insult from her, just because of her condition, does her no favors.

 

[allycat0303]

Incidently, last night, totally out of the freaking blue, my guy and I rented the movie the ''''groomsmen''''. Totally bizarre because we knew nothing about the movie, and my guy and I typically only watch really silly comedy (think American pie) or action movies. But we didn''t have time to read the description, it was a drama, and my guy usually falls asleep but we were totally into it. And in the movie there were sibling guys that were going through the EXACT same thing. The older brother was acting really mean and nasty about his brother''s future wedding and the whole movie builds to the older brother revealing the reasons why. Anyways it was because the older brother couldn''t have children. I don''t think it was a particulary good movie but when the guy told his wife he had a problem with his hypothalamus and was infertile I CRIED like a baby. WHAT ARE THE CHANCES?? I think that watching that movie kind of opened up my guy''s eyes to all of this, because in all honesty, he wasn''t that sympathetic to my sister. Seeing a movie where a man was going through it, and how devestating it was, made him realize that it is probably very painful for a woman too.

In any case, I did some reseach on infertility this morning and apparently being infertile and telling perspective partners is quite an issue. I really don''t know a lot about this health problem, we studied it briefly in Endocrinology, but I didn''t realize that it is actually a widespread problem among young woman and young men. And I read an article on ivillage, where the woman describes a date where the man says "I would never date an infertile woman

" It''s very eye-opening because it would never be an issue with me, yet it is a terrible issue for so many people.

ARGH. Sorry for rambling. My guy wanted to have some time to really think this wedding thing through. Pros, cons and what he really wants to do. He''s working today, so he''ll let me know tonight. We have a deadline of Monday to firmly decide we should do. Although it did seem to me that he wasn''t leaning one way or another.

Thank you for all the advice and support! I really appreciate it.

Cara: Well that''s the main reason I haven''t committed to a wedding at home. I KNOW myself, and I don''t feel sufficiently confident in myself to handle any future issues in a way that I SHOULD handle them. Saying ''''yes we''re having a wedding here'''' means I''m going to have to be firm even if everything goes crazy. And my guy isn''t that confident that I will be able too either.

 

[VRBeauty]

AC: Here's what I know as someone who found out at the age of about 31 -- when she finally felt like she was getting her sh** together -- that she was not going to be able to have children:

- There is a deep, deep shame that comes with knowing that you will not be able to have children. I expected that I would start my career at around 25 and my family at arounhd 30+ (why not??? that's what young women of my generation were taught.) I really felt like "I blew it" because of the opportunities I had to start a family, when I deemed myself not ready.

- I went through some self-selection with my dates so that I would never have to discuss the issue of childbearing: I found reasons not to go on second dates with anyone who expressed an interest in having children (or another child, as the case may be). If I found myself thinking "wow, he would make a wonderful father", I found a way to check out. In other words, I rejected them before they could reject me.

- I grew up expecting that at some point I would have children, and when I found out that would not be possible, I blamed myself -- for years. ( why wasn't I ready emotionally to have children sooner?? Many other women were!) And I grieved for long time. I avoided situations in which I might have to disclose this fatal flaw (after all, isn't that what we're here for???) for a long, long time, which included avoiding dating men who made me think "gee, he'd be a wonderful father... he deserves to be a father!", or declining second dates with some wonderful men who expressed an interest in having children.

So if your sister is dealing with the discovery that she is not able to have children, I understand that she would act irrationally and I would expect that the irrational behaviour could continue for a while.

That doesn't mean however that you have to rearrange your life to help your sister avoid her pain. It might take your sister many years to come to terms with her reality. Your getting married -- whenever -- will not change her situation. You could join a convent, and it wouldn't change your sister's options! She will eventually accept that her options have changed and that the choices you make for your life cannot change her life.

Please do not let your empathy for your sister color the choices you make for your wedding, or (more importantly) the choices that you and your Fiance make about your life together.