Combining Assets

[Dancing Fire]

Since money issues are one of the main reasons people get divorced, we make it a point to be very open and communicate regularly about money. We sit down together every months and make up our monthly budget where we spend every dollar on paper before the month begins. If something unexpected comes up, we sit down together and make adjustments. We pay everything through our debit card and use a money program on the computer to record every transaction and put it in charts to see where our money goes every month. If either of us spends more than $200, we run it by each other first. I personally feel very good being on the same page and having the same goals as my husband, and would feel odd if we had to have a system where we "owed" each other money or didn't know where each other's money was going every month.

that's reason why wife and i never talk about money.if we did we would of been divorced a long time ago. i'll hear her say...why did you waste money on this and that everyday.

So when you say never, you mean she could've run up $30k in credit card debt or she could have a secret pile of cash somewhere and you wouldn't know anything about it?

LOL!!! $30K in CC debt?? my wife is so FRUGAL that i don't think she spends $30.00 a yr., so in this case the pile of cash is more likely.

this may also shock you...i have no idea what her annual income is, she always kept that a secret. soooo no money talk = less chance of a divorce.

 

[steph72276]

Well, at least that part is good, DF...whatever works for you guys!!

 

[April20]

I'm going to tell you that i just don't understand how a married couple can keep completely seperate assets and "owe" each other money. It's a recipe for fights, resentment and anger IMO. You're supposed to be a team when you get married- each one looking out for the other's interests.

DH and I combined accounts the month before we got married. He got irritated with his bank and was going to close his account and it just didn't make sense to open a completely new one for one month, so I put him on mine. I've always made about twice what he makes. And last year he didn't get a pay check for six months. Long and short, my income pays nearly 100% of our expenses. His income tends to go toward extras and our savings account.... that is when he gets a check (he's a small business owner). Anything left over from my pay from a previous pay period when I get paid the next time goes into savings. We've never had an issue with each other's spending. Granted, neither one of us will go blow several hundred dollars without discussing it, but $100 here and there doesn't bug either one of us. That being said, we've got enough comfort in our budget that we can do that.

I think you guys need to find a way to combine assets and communicate about spending, budgeting and saving. If your DH doesn't write things down and balance a check book, maybe a cash budget for spending money would be a better idea for him and provide you with a comfort level of what's going out of your account. Whatever works for you guys in the end, but I think you should combine.

 

[Rhea]

I'm not sure I have the best answer for this since money is an issue in our relationship (he works for his family who barely pay him minimum wage and never pay him on time which causes me to resent his family).

I currently make more than double what DH makes. He honestly doesn't make enough to support himself. My travel expenses come directly from my paycheque (around £150/month) because of a yearly loan I have from my employer. After that is taken out I still bring home more than double what he does.

We have joint everything, savings, credit card, and checking account. If we did 50/50 he'd have about £125/month after our basic monthly regular bills. This doesn't include anything fun such as eating out, going out with friends, gifts for occasions, etc. If we split that 50/50 then he'd owe me money each month. Everything we save, which isn't much, I don't make a lot, is basically from my paycheque. I'm also the only one of us who has a pension.

I don't think that's a fair position to put my husband in. Money causes enough stress in our relationship that to make him feel like he wasn't saving or owed me money just isn't the answer for us. Sure, I don't feel as secure since I'm having to watch out for both of us, but that'd be a false sense of security anyhow since if he loses him job then the rent has to be made up somehow. What am I going to do if he loses his job? Just not pay his half of the rent and tell the letting agent to pursue him for it? Have him rack of debt, which would affect me as well since we're married? At this point in his life he simply can't contribute what I can to our finances. But we're in this together.

 

[alli_esq]

Well, DH and I have not had our "money date" yet (it's scheduled for Thursday...he has a busy week coming up), but although I was feeling very positive about it on Friday when I was writing back to all of you here and reading your responses, I mentioned something about what I was thinking to DH this weekend, and he reacted very very badly...so now I am dreading this conversation. I cannot believe how divergent we feel about this issue, and I really REALLY do not think the reason I feel differently than he does is because I make less and owe more than he does.

What I said to DH (and I swear, I said it very positively) was that we really had to get a handle on what both of us owe in student loans (of course, I know to the penny what I owe and what my amortization schedule looks like, but I am very cloudy on what DH owes, since he is so iffy on details when it comes to money), and that I would like us to more aggressively pay back his loans and see how we can both contribute to his loans and to mine. Well, my loans are 7+ times what his are, and he made it CRYSTAL CLEAR that he wants NOTHING to do with my student loans--that this is MY debt and that he will not contribute to paying that off. I explained to him that this debt will (hopefully) increase my earnings potential, and the more I make, the more we can save for us TOGETHER, but he would have none of that. He said (and this is virtually a direct quote): "If we get divorced, which I don't expect, but IF we get divorced, I will be out thousands of dollars if I start helping you pay back your loans."

Obviously, I got extremely upset hearing this. I told him that I see us as a team, and that we have these joint goals, and that the best way for us to achieve those goals is by doing it together. He agrees to a certain extent, but just simply (as dreamer pointed out) does NOT see it the way that I do. What he earns is his, what I earn is mine, and what we owe individually are our own personal expenses.

I have come up with a few of different scenarios for us going forward that I will bring up to him on Thursday, but unless he gets out of this mindset (which I certainly don't expect to happen out of the blue, especially in 3 days, when he's been thinking this way for 33 years), I don't see how any of these situations will work.

Scenario A: What we are both doing right now, which is paying for joint bills 50-50 (except that he pays for the car insurance alone), me paying off my loan on my own, him paying off his loan (over a much longer period than I think is wise). Currently, he is making about 52% of our joint income, but he is able to save about 74% of our joint discretionary funds.

Scenario B: We combine all of our bills except for loans, and pay what we would owe on them based on our income. However, this leaves me with even less discretionary money, because this adds in the car insurance, which he currently pays for.

Scenario C: We combine ALL of our bills INCLUDING our loans, and pay them pro rata. I would then have about 47% of our joint discretionary earnings to save as I please, and my suggestion would be tht that we would both use this "discretionary" money to save part for ourselves in our separate savings accounts, part in his 401(k) (for both of us, as I do not have a 401(k) and part in our joint savings account. This is the most equitable in my mind, but I think this one is the least likely to happen because DH is so opposed to thinking of things in these terms.

However, there are a couple of other things that I am thinking:

1. I am thinking that if he is opposed to the concept of having his "earnings" pay for my loans, but is open to saving in a joint account, as long as he puts a certain amount of his discretionary income in our joint account/his 401(k) (for both of our benefits), that will really achieve my goal of having JOINT savings and an amount that is fair for both of us to be contributing to our JOINT retirement (until such a time as I am able to have a 401(k) of my own).

2. I am open to paying slightly less on my student loans and more on his so that he can pay his loans off in the next 2.5 years rather than the next 20+ years that he is currently on track to do (at least, that's how I calculated it with the tiny amount of information I had, although I don't think any student loan actually is extended for 30+ years, which is what it seems like to me without all the information). I would be okay with this scenario only if once we pay off his student loan, we increase our joint payments to my student loans so we can pay my loans back within 10 years, instead of the 15+ years I am currently on track to do. I doubt he will be into this, but it would save me (and ultimately us) thousands of dollars in interest payments. I figure, if we do this, we will have another 2+ years of marriage under our belts and we can decide at that point how comfortable he is about helping to pay off my loans. Plus, I will have contributed thousands to his debt at that point, so perhaps that would show good faith on my part.

I do not know if he is going to be on board with any of that, but at least I am trying. Am I missing something here? I want to be totally prepared when I meet with him on Thursday and approach this in a very positive, very focused-on-our-joint-future way...and NOT to get hurt and to feel rejected if he does not agree to my approach. Maybe that is unrealistic, dealing with someone who is clearly so concerned about his own well-being that he cannot see how working together is a positive.

I realize, again, that I got myself into this situation--that he never gave me any indication (other than talking to me about wanting a future with me and just plain marrying me) that he was willing to combine our assets and liabilities...so ultimately, I have no one to blame but myself for getting into this situation (i.e. NEL's husband's reaction, because I have always split EVERYTHING, no matter how difficult or inequitable, with DH since we met)...but I am hoping that I might find a way to propose these things in such a way that DH will begin to see my way of thinking.

One other thing: my parents always combined their finances, and DH's parents always combined their finances--my mother hasn't worked since I was born, and DH's father has not worked in years either...so without their spouse's support, my mom and his dad would have been unable to live. So, it's not directly from his life experience that DH feels this way--it's just more that he feels very protective over what he earns because he is so scared to be left alone with no money.

Any constructive suggestions are EXTREMELY EXTREMELY welcome.

Thank you all again for writing such thoughtful responses. I have so appreciated all of them.

 

[Indylady]

Alli,
I don't have advice, but I do have lots of hugs. My SO and I are currently figuring out how we'll pay for graduate school, and whether or not we'd go if we don't have funding. Our conversations have showed us that our conceptions of the lifestyle we imagine ourselves living in the future are quite different; they've been hard, yet thought provoking, and sometimes heated conversations.

Like you said, I don't think this issue is entirely about earnings. I can see his reasoning; he doesn't want to pay for the financial choices that you made prior to meeting him. I would find this much easier to relate to if you two had recently started dating; as a married couple though, hearing this attitude makes me wonder if he has trust or security issues, rather than money issues. Pursuing a joint savings account sounds like a positive idea to me, but of course, it will depent on your DH and whether or not he is receptive to the idea. Again, lots of hugs! I hope that others will chime in and offer good advice to you.

 

[TooPatient]

Well, DH and I have not had our "money date" yet (it's scheduled for Thursday...he has a busy week coming up), but although I was feeling very positive about it on Friday when I was writing back to all of you here and reading your responses, I mentioned something about what I was thinking to DH this weekend, and he reacted very very badly...so now I am dreading this conversation. I cannot believe how divergent we feel about this issue, and I really REALLY do not think the reason I feel differently than he does is because I make less and owe more than he does.

What I said to DH (and I swear, I said it very positively) was that we really had to get a handle on what both of us owe in student loans (of course, I know to the penny what I owe and what my amortization schedule looks like, but I am very cloudy on what DH owes, since he is so iffy on details when it comes to money), and that I would like us to more aggressively pay back his loans and see how we can both contribute to his loans and to mine. Well, my loans are 7+ times what his are, and he made it CRYSTAL CLEAR that he wants NOTHING to do with my student loans--that this is MY debt and that he will not contribute to paying that off. I explained to him that this debt will (hopefully) increase my earnings potential, and the more I make, the more we can save for us TOGETHER, but he would have none of that. He said (and this is virtually a direct quote): "If we get divorced, which I don't expect, but IF we get divorced, I will be out thousands of dollars if I start helping you pay back your loans."

Obviously, I got extremely upset hearing this. I told him that I see us as a team, and that we have these joint goals, and that the best way for us to achieve those goals is by doing it together. He agrees to a certain extent, but just simply (as dreamer pointed out) does NOT see it the way that I do. What he earns is his, what I earn is mine, and what we owe individually are our own personal expenses.

I have come up with a few of different scenarios for us going forward that I will bring up to him on Thursday, but unless he gets out of this mindset (which I certainly don't expect to happen out of the blue, especially in 3 days, when he's been thinking this way for 33 years), I don't see how any of these situations will work.

Scenario A: What we are both doing right now, which is paying for joint bills 50-50 (except that he pays for the car insurance alone), me paying off my loan on my own, him paying off his loan (over a much longer period than I think is wise). Currently, he is making about 52% of our joint income, but he is able to save about 74% of our joint discretionary funds.

Scenario B: We combine all of our bills except for loans, and pay what we would owe on them based on our income. However, this leaves me with even less discretionary money, because this adds in the car insurance, which he currently pays for.

Scenario C: We combine ALL of our bills INCLUDING our loans, and pay them pro rata. I would then have about 47% of our joint discretionary earnings to save as I please, and my suggestion would be tht that we would both use this "discretionary" money to save part for ourselves in our separate savings accounts, part in his 401(k) (for both of us, as I do not have a 401(k) and part in our joint savings account. This is the most equitable in my mind, but I think this one is the least likely to happen because DH is so opposed to thinking of things in these terms.

However, there are a couple of other things that I am thinking:

1. I am thinking that if he is opposed to the concept of having his "earnings" pay for my loans, but is open to saving in a joint account, as long as he puts a certain amount of his discretionary income in our joint account/his 401(k) (for both of our benefits), that will really achieve my goal of having JOINT savings and an amount that is fair for both of us to be contributing to our JOINT retirement (until such a time as I am able to have a 401(k) of my own).

2. I am open to paying slightly less on my student loans and more on his so that he can pay his loans off in the next 2.5 years rather than the next 20+ years that he is currently on track to do (at least, that's how I calculated it with the tiny amount of information I had, although I don't think any student loan actually is extended for 30+ years, which is what it seems like to me without all the information). I would be okay with this scenario only if once we pay off his student loan, we increase our joint payments to my student loans so we can pay my loans back within 10 years, instead of the 15+ years I am currently on track to do. I doubt he will be into this, but it would save me (and ultimately us) thousands of dollars in interest payments. I figure, if we do this, we will have another 2+ years of marriage under our belts and we can decide at that point how comfortable he is about helping to pay off my loans. Plus, I will have contributed thousands to his debt at that point, so perhaps that would show good faith on my part.

I do not know if he is going to be on board with any of that, but at least I am trying. Am I missing something here? I want to be totally prepared when I meet with him on Thursday and approach this in a very positive, very focused-on-our-joint-future way...and NOT to get hurt and to feel rejected if he does not agree to my approach. Maybe that is unrealistic, dealing with someone who is clearly so concerned about his own well-being that he cannot see how working together is a positive.

I realize, again, that I got myself into this situation--that he never gave me any indication (other than talking to me about wanting a future with me and just plain marrying me) that he was willing to combine our assets and liabilities...so ultimately, I have no one to blame but myself for getting into this situation (i.e. NEL's husband's reaction, because I have always split EVERYTHING, no matter how difficult or inequitable, with DH since we met)...but I am hoping that I might find a way to propose these things in such a way that DH will begin to see my way of thinking.

One other thing: my parents always combined their finances, and DH's parents always combined their finances--my mother hasn't worked since I was born, and DH's father has not worked in years either...so without their spouse's support, my mom and his dad would have been unable to live. So, it's not directly from his life experience that DH feels this way--it's just more that he feels very protective over what he earns because he is so scared to be left alone with no money.

Any constructive suggestions are EXTREMELY EXTREMELY welcome.

Thank you all again for writing such thoughtful responses. I have so appreciated all of them.

A good place to start sounds like it might be writing out ALL of your required monthly payments. (rent/mortgage, car, groceries, electric...) Do this for each of you. Take his list of required expenses (including "personal" bills) and your list and add them up so you can see how much you pay total each month and what he pays total each month. Then subtract his number from his income (after taxes) and your number from your income to show what you are each left with for saving, "personal" expenses, etc.
I suggest this because it might help him to see what you are attempting to live on each month. He might be rather shocked to compare what "he has" against what "you have".
With any luck, he'll notice the differenc and want to work with you so that things are a bit more balanced.

Another possibility (probably the best possibility) is to approach him very logically with precise figures.
Make a spreadsheet showing how much interest you could both save on your student loans if you work together to pay them off faster. I'm sure that if you break it down precisely (using current interest rate & projected payments) you'd be able to show that he'd save more in interest on "his loan" than he paid towards "your loan". Have a column to show that savings in interest and the amount you would be paying towards "his loan" and subtract out what he pays toward "your loan" to show him exactly what his savings would be.


Reassure him that you aren't going to leave him. You love him and plan to spend the rest of your life with him. You understand he had difficult times in his life and you want to work together with him to make sure that never happens again.

 

[alli_esq]

A good place to start sounds like it might be writing out ALL of your required monthly payments. (rent/mortgage, car, groceries, electric...) Do this for each of you. Take his list of required expenses (including "personal" bills) and your list and add them up so you can see how much you pay total each month and what he pays total each month. Then subtract his number from his income (after taxes) and your number from your income to show what you are each left with for saving, "personal" expenses, etc.
I suggest this because it might help him to see what you are attempting to live on each month. He might be rather shocked to compare what "he has" against what "you have".
With any luck, he'll notice the differenc and want to work with you so that things are a bit more balanced.

Another possibility (probably the best possibility) is to approach him very logically with precise figures.
Make a spreadsheet showing how much interest you could both save on your student loans if you work together to pay them off faster. I'm sure that if you break it down precisely (using current interest rate & projected payments) you'd be able to show that he'd save more in interest on "his loan" than he paid towards "your loan". Have a column to show that savings in interest and the amount you would be paying towards "his loan" and subtract out what he pays toward "your loan" to show him exactly what his savings would be.


Reassure him that you aren't going to leave him. You love him and plan to spend the rest of your life with him. You understand he had difficult times in his life and you want to work together with him to make sure that never happens again.

Thank you for your response, TooPatient!

I have actually prepared all of the things you suggested! I have made different spreadsheets showing our individual and joint expenses and incomes, and various suggestions as to the ways that we can start to combine everything. I also made amortization schedules for my loans and for his, and compared them to show how much we would save if we paid his off and then mine off within x years with various permutations.

The issue when it comes to our disparate incomes/expenses is that because I am 4 years younger than he is, and because he strugged for most of his 20s (it wasn't until he was 28 that he finally got a job where he could keep his head above water), he has absolutely 0 interest in hearing that I do not have as much to save as he does, because when he was my age, he wasn't saving either. He doesn't see it as us saving together as a team--to him it's more "well, you took out those loans, they're your responsibility, just like my taking out my loans made them my responsibility, and NO ONE helped ME." That sounds awful, but the truth is that I understand how he feels to some extent--I just wish he didn't feel that way. I have tried to say to him, "that's true, but you weren't married," but that goes back to the whole idea that he thinks I'm somehow money-grubbing.

Also, he really gets aggravated having school loans--he doesn't think that his going to college helped him at all, and that it was a huge waste of money. I don't feel that my student loans have been a waste--obviously, if I want to be a lawyer, I had to go to law school, and my parents didn't have enough money to send me, so I was happy to take out the loans to pay for my education myself. (I was so lucky that my parents ahd a college fund for me, so I did not have college student loans--whereas DH's parents didn't offer him a dime of support during his entire time at college.) So there's that different mindset as well.

Another important point is that DH paid off a good chunk of his loans (just under 1/3) a few months ago, after we got married, and I supported his doing that. Of course, the only reason he was able to save enough to pay that off was because I have been paying 50% of all expenses since we moved in together 3 years ago, but because he put all that money into his separate account, he felt that it was all his own to decide what he wanted to do with it. He DID ask me if it was okay with me, but the fact is, he didn't HAVE to ask me, because it's all in his name, and it's all "HIS" money.

UGH, I get so worked up even writing about this. I hope I am able to stay calm on Thursday and not get defensive as I usually do.

 

[iheartscience]

Wow, I'm sorry your husband is being so inflexible. If I were you, there is NO WAY I would pay a cent towards his loans. If he won't help you, why should you help him? As for the rest, I don't know what to say.

 

[NewEnglandLady]

Alli, I am so sorry that the money date already has a cloud of tension around it.

So he's drawn a line in the sand. What's his is his and what's yours is yours. We can tell you that his debt is your debt and you'll accomplish more as a team, yadda yadda yadda all we want, but it's not relevant in this case because HE doesn't believe that. So we need to work with what we've got.

I'm torn about how to recommend you handle the money date. My first response was to tell you to come prepared with figures--payoff schedules, money lost paying interest and the bottom line with each plan (paying individually vs. paying together). I suggest this because my husband is a mathematician and digests the figures easily--and he likes have the data in front of him. If your husband gets overwhelmed by the figures, it might not be the best game plan. I wouldn't want him to feel like you're taking control and the he subsequently freaks out.

My other response was to tell you to just use this money date as a time/place to let DH talk about why he doesn't feel you should be a team when it comes to finances. I agree with IndyLady that a lot of this is likely psychological. Insecurity about money, need to maintain control. Maybe he doesn't see you as an equal financial partner of the team and is not comfortable with that (I am not an equal financial partner in my relationship and that's okay, I bring a lot of other things to the table). Or maybe his expectation was that the marriage was going to be 50/50 financially. Or it could simply be that he doesn't feel it's fair for you to pay each other's debt. Just let him be open about it--no need to defend yourself, no need to make him feel better, just let him talk about why he feels the way he does.

So maybe you need a couple of money dates The first to let him be completely open with you (without you getting upset) and then possibly a follow up to discuss real logistics based on real numbers. Or maybe you don't need the first one and can dive into the figures, I'm not sure.

All we know right now is that he hasn't really started the journey from independence to interdependence, so he has a long way to go. In the meantime, creating a solution that works for both of you might take a bit more time.

In terms of your actual plans, I think that having a joint savings account is a step in the right direction. If trust is his issue, it will help to build trust. On paper, I like the idea of both of you paying off his loans first, then moving on to your loans. I believe that momentum helps when paying off debt, which is why "snowballing" the loans makes sense. My fear, however, is that you'll help to pay off his, then in 2 years he'll say "I'm still not paying off yours". When you say "But I helped you", he might say "I didn't ask you to". You get the idea--I would just hate to see you help him out for a long time only to be met with the "I'm not helping you" argument at the end.

I wish you lots of luck this Thursday!

ETA: I just read that you've put together all the spreadsheets--at least that is done. Also, I understand that he feels school was a waste of money. I grew up really poor (read: no $$ for college) and decided to go to a private college. Spending too much money on my education is a regret I'll have for life, but who cares. It's irrelevant, you still have to pay it off, so he has to get over it. And finally, you are right that he can save what he saves because you pull your financial weight. In my relationship, it was a catch-22. I paid my half, but the money D saved went towards "us". Traveling, buying the house, paying off my loans, etc. That's where your DH differs--you pay half and he saves more...which then stays in the "this is mine" category.

 

[decodelighted]

I'm wondering if perhaps you should request that you both DRASTICALLY diminish your style of living for a period of time. So that you can get ahead with the student loans & save. These "joint" expenses -- like where you live & what you eat etc etc ... whose income are they based on? Whose comfort-level?

If you can't comfortably afford to meet the 50% of that lifestyle & still be where you want to be savings-wise and comfort-wise (for the sake of argument) -- maybe you should seek to change *that*.

People don't like to be uncomfortable. If HIS standard of living was going to decline because of your ability to afford it -- I'm thinking perhaps he'd be more flexible about the "what's mine is mine & what's yours is yours" theory of partnership.

 

[TooPatient]

A good place to start sounds like it might be writing out ALL of your required monthly payments. (rent/mortgage, car, groceries, electric...) Do this for each of you. Take his list of required expenses (including "personal" bills) and your list and add them up so you can see how much you pay total each month and what he pays total each month. Then subtract his number from his income (after taxes) and your number from your income to show what you are each left with for saving, "personal" expenses, etc.
I suggest this because it might help him to see what you are attempting to live on each month. He might be rather shocked to compare what "he has" against what "you have".
With any luck, he'll notice the differenc and want to work with you so that things are a bit more balanced.

Another possibility (probably the best possibility) is to approach him very logically with precise figures.
Make a spreadsheet showing how much interest you could both save on your student loans if you work together to pay them off faster. I'm sure that if you break it down precisely (using current interest rate & projected payments) you'd be able to show that he'd save more in interest on "his loan" than he paid towards "your loan". Have a column to show that savings in interest and the amount you would be paying towards "his loan" and subtract out what he pays toward "your loan" to show him exactly what his savings would be.


Reassure him that you aren't going to leave him. You love him and plan to spend the rest of your life with him. You understand he had difficult times in his life and you want to work together with him to make sure that never happens again.

Thank you for your response, TooPatient!

I have actually prepared all of the things you suggested! I have made different spreadsheets showing our individual and joint expenses and incomes, and various suggestions as to the ways that we can start to combine everything. I also made amortization schedules for my loans and for his, and compared them to show how much we would save if we paid his off and then mine off within x years with various permutations.

The issue when it comes to our disparate incomes/expenses is that because I am 4 years younger than he is, and because he strugged for most of his 20s (it wasn't until he was 28 that he finally got a job where he could keep his head above water), he has absolutely 0 interest in hearing that I do not have as much to save as he does, because when he was my age, he wasn't saving either. He doesn't see it as us saving together as a team--to him it's more "well, you took out those loans, they're your responsibility, just like my taking out my loans made them my responsibility, and NO ONE helped ME." That sounds awful, but the truth is that I understand how he feels to some extent--I just wish he didn't feel that way. I have tried to say to him, "that's true, but you weren't married," but that goes back to the whole idea that he thinks I'm somehow money-grubbing.

Also, he really gets aggravated having school loans--he doesn't think that his going to college helped him at all, and that it was a huge waste of money. I don't feel that my student loans have been a waste--obviously, if I want to be a lawyer, I had to go to law school, and my parents didn't have enough money to send me, so I was happy to take out the loans to pay for my education myself. (I was so lucky that my parents ahd a college fund for me, so I did not have college student loans--whereas DH's parents didn't offer him a dime of support during his entire time at college.) So there's that different mindset as well.

Another important point is that DH paid off a good chunk of his loans (just under 1/3) a few months ago, after we got married, and I supported his doing that. Of course, the only reason he was able to save enough to pay that off was because I have been paying 50% of all expenses since we moved in together 3 years ago, but because he put all that money into his separate account, he felt that it was all his own to decide what he wanted to do with it. He DID ask me if it was okay with me, but the fact is, he didn't HAVE to ask me, because it's all in his name, and it's all "HIS" money.

UGH, I get so worked up even writing about this. I hope I am able to stay calm on Thursday and not get defensive as I usually do.

Don't get defensive. Stick to your spread sheets and approach it from the logical side.
If it would help, you might put it into a PowerPoint presentation so that the slides advance and keep your conversation going in the right direction.

You should also show him how the interest saved on those loans could be set aside and used as part of a larger down payment on a house (or to pay off car, credit card, etc...) (again, saving you both $$$$ in interest).


I like the suggestion someone made earlier -- does he have a dollar amount in his head that he wants to have completely separate to feel safe? If so, make sure he has that in an account that is in his name only. (of course he could add to it as he wanted but there would be at least that much)

Would he feel safer if there was some sort of legal agreement in place between the two of you? Something that would guarantee that if you divorced he would be guaranteed to have X, X, and X untouched in whatever settlement you reached? Maybe a brokerage account set up "as his separate property" with appropriate documentation?


Be careful in all of this. While you want to keep him comfortable and confident that he is secure if ever you divorce, you don't want to leave yourself open to being in seriouse trouble if anything happened. (I'm sure you're very aware of what can happen in divorce)


ETA: In my case, I found that FI won't feel "secure" until the house is paid off so he knows he at least has a place to live. I'm currently in school + working part time so I can't contribute as much to our bills as he can but that will change as I am able to qualify for much higher paying jobs. (FI is actually paying a big chunk of my tuition so we don't have to deal with student loans & interest). Currently FI's name is the only one on the mortgage & title of the house. When I am making more (hopefully about a year from now), we'll refinance to get a lower rate (NOT taking cash out or anything) and put my name on the mortgage & title too (since my credit will be better & my income will be higher than it was for the initial purchase). The plan from there is to essentially take the difference between what my income is now and what it is then and pay that to the mortgage each month (in addition to the required payment) so the house will be paid off far sooner (approximately 15 years instead of 30 -- when I know my income, I can figure out a bit more precisely). HE would be more comfortable with it in just his name -- I am unwilling to esentially pay for 1/2 a house and not have my name as joint owner. We talked about interest and payoff times and he agreed that he'd be comfortable with my name on it as well.)


Even men who had challenges in their past are logical and reasonable as long as you remain logical and detached. As soon as you introduce emotion, "fairness", or anything else into the conversation.....

 

[Blackpaw]

alli, im really sorry this is causing you so much pain i think the ideas presented are a good way to get started. And if you do get defensive dont beat yourself up about it - you're only human and this is a tough, upsetting situation.

and yes i think you need to protect yourself, as clearly that is your DHs intent. Like you said its hard to change 33 years of one way of thinking, so i would just make sure you're comfortable with your own finances etc - or just have it in the back of your mind maybe?

Sorry, im not much help. I hope it goes well for you.

 

[Dreamer_D]

My other response was to tell you to just use this money date as a time/place to let DH talk about why he doesn't feel you should be a team when it comes to finances. I agree with IndyLady that a lot of this is likely psychological. Insecurity about money, need to maintain control. Maybe he doesn't see you as an equal financial partner of the team and is not comfortable with that (I am not an equal financial partner in my relationship and that's okay, I bring a lot of other things to the table). Or maybe his expectation was that the marriage was going to be 50/50 financially. Or it could simply be that he doesn't feel it's fair for you to pay each other's debt. Just let him be open about it--no need to defend yourself, no need to make him feel better, just let him talk about why he feels the way he does.

So maybe you need a couple of money dates The first to let him be completely open with you (without you getting upset) and then possibly a follow up to discuss real logistics based on real numbers. Or maybe you don't need the first one and can dive into the figures, I'm not sure.

I strongly strongly strongly recommend that you do this on the first money date. He is not ready to talk figures, and you do not know enough about the reasons for his views to really make a plan to propose to him. Gather more information and then go from there.

Questions I would try to understand: What is his long term goal for your financially as a couple? What will it take for him to feel secure financially? What type of financial scenerio does he think is fair re: disposable income? Does he object to any shared finances or only some (e.g. debts are independent but others things pooled?)? Why does he object to pooling resources? Then perhaps you answer those same questions and you can talk about where you agree and where you disagree. It will help you in trying to make a plan, rather than trying to go blind and plan without all the information.

For a future money date, I wonder if you think he would be ok with pooling all the income now into a single pot. From that pot all the communal bills are paid, communal savings are made, and then from that you each get an equal discretionary amount and from that discretionary amount you each can pay off your debts at the rate you want and pay into savings at any rate you want? It maintains the separateness of the debt but allows you to benefit from pooled money. His willingness to do this could depend on his answers to my above questions.

Also, if he wants to keep some aspects of your finances separate then play by that rule. If he will not pay your debt then good lord woman, do not pay his!! He is being really silly about all of this and clearly is not good with money, but you will not teach him that by putting yourself out there and being more communal than he is being.

FWIW I really feel for you and send you strength. I have to be honest, if my new husband was treating me the way your husband is treating you -- like a business partner, not a life partner -- I would be contemplating leaving him. Your hurt is totally valid from my perspective.

 

[zipzapgirl]

Alli, I've been following this thread for a while and it's definitely a tough tough topic.

I think DecoDelighted had some great ideas for how to approach things. Deco mentioned that you are living the same lifestyle, but earning disparate amounts and that you might suggest bringing the joint lifestyle level down to highlight this issue. That's the main reason I've always read that splitting 50/50 was not ideal in a relationship--the lesser-earning partner will always be living just at the edge of their means. Maybe present this not as a threat, but as an option to your DH, so that he can see you showing responsible spending habits and a willingness to work towards paying off your debt.

I just wanted to add that you need to be careful not to get fixated on numbers in this situation. I was in a class this week where we talked about rational arguments versus emotions & symbols. If the other party is using a symbol and an emotional rationale, numbers will be fully irrelevant to the discussion. First, you could end up just discussion the correctness of the numbers (sidetracking the conversation) and second, numbers are much less persuasive against a symbolic tale or emotional plea. All this to say--I think you need to be very careful about whipping out the Excel spreadsheets against the symbol he has in his mind of himself being alone and poor.

As you've described the events of the last week, it doesn't sound like you are going to be able to win him over to the full idea of combining finances. I think the best you will be able to do is start building out a joint vision of where you want things to go long-term. This seems like the kind of issue that's going to take a lot of heart to heart talks to get to common ground, but i think if you can go in with a loving, non-accusatory attitude and focus on the problem at hand, with the mantra of moving you forward as a couple, you can make progress. All the best.

 

[October2008bride]

This is a really tough discussion to have - I'm sorry that it has been so difficult for you! People can have very set ways when it comes to money and that is hard to get past.

My DH was like that with my student debt as well. He won't pay a cent of it. It is my debt and although he could just pay it off, he won't. However, what he does do is puts an equivalent amount of money from 'his' pay into our mortgage account to do an additional pre-payment every month. For some reason, he feels better doing that (even though it could be the same, you know?). I had a hard time with that at first, but we've found a way to make it work.

Bottom line is that it is my debt. I got myself into it (thanks, law school), and I make enough to pay it down myself. Sure, it is not smart financially because of interest etc, but it is really important to my DH so that is fine by me.

However, if anything ever came up (I got sick, or something like that), I know that he'd pitch in.

So pretty much what we do is pay 50/50 towards bills, I pay my debt, he prepays mortgage, and we each get 'the rest' of our pay as miscellaneous spending money. It does not feel very team like right now, but it works for us. If I have a baby and go on mat leave, it will have to change, but for now we both get a little independence. Good thing is when the debt is paid off, I get to keep the extra money in my misc (minus what will be my pre-payment for the mortgage).

I worry a lot about it not feeling like some romantic notion of a 'team' but you know what? Everyone is different and what works for some doesn't work for others.

Maybe your DH grew up in such a way that he doesn't want to feel taken advantage of. Did his parents go through a nasty divorce? I don't know - just an idea.

Bottom line, I'd drop the debt thing and focus on getting a more equitable split on the bills. He might just have some kind of deep down objection to paying your debt but might be open to paying bills based on a percentage of salary so that you aren't feeling so pinched.

Anyhoo good luck and keep us updated!

 

[Hudson_Hawk]

Alli, I'm sorry you're going through this. Ugh, so hard. I don't think I could do it. I would be long gone by now.

I'm not sure where you live, but I'm puzzled by his comment about his helping you pay your debts means he'd be out thousands if you divorced down the road. Where I'm from assets amassed while married are community property and I'd be entitled to 50% of everything he has regardless of who paid what bills. So the way I see it, and I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but he can be a 100% invested partner in your relationship and marriage and help you with your bills, etc for the GOOD of the marriage and your communal future, or he can continue being a jerk, alienate you until you leave and file for divorce and then be forced to hand over 50% of his savings and other assets. Darling your husband does not sound like a bright man...

((hugs)) I hope you two are able to come to some sort of a resolution with this. It's not fair for you to live this way. I really like zipzap's suggestion of forcing yourselves to live at a level YOU can manage within your means for awhile. I'm not sure if he'd go for that, but it's worth a shot.

 

[Haven]

Hi, Alli.

Yeesh--Your most recent posts make it sound like things are tougher than I thought. I'm so sorry, Alli.

I'm thinking that before you start to make any specific financial plans at all, you need to let him talk some more about his feelings about money and why he feels so strongly about these issues. It sounds like you know *how* he wants to handle things, but not *why* he feels that way. Maybe some insight into his reasons for being so stubborn on this point would help you come up with a plan that he will like later on.

I think it's perfectly normal for you to be very upset about all this. If my husband had this attitude about money and about keeping things separate I would feel very uncomfortable. I really think that you guys need to do some serious talking about these things before you can iron out any details about money and what goes where and who pays for what. My husband and I are a team, and we are on the same side no matter what. You deserve that, too.

 

[yssie]

Oh, goodness, I don't know what to say! Another HUG, and - I really don't understand his mindset at all. I agree that sticking to the numbers would probably be the best way to get through to him, rather than an emotional plea.

I hope it goes well alli!

 

[steph72276]

Oh, I am so sorry you are going through this. You have gotten great advice here for how to approach your money date, and I agree there should be several money dates with the first one just talking about why he feels the way he does. What has me worried is that you said he is very fuzzy on details of how much he owes. Do you have any clue about any other debts he has? It almost seems as if he's being secretive about things on purpose from what you said, and that would have me worried that he might be racking up debt somewhere that you're unaware of. I feel for you, because like others said I would have a real problem with not feeling like a team.

 

[lyra]

I am also concerned that he might have more debt than you know about. You don't want to be responsible for half of something you have no control over. Sheesh that's a scary thought. My best friend went through financial hell when she got divorced from her first husband. He had racked up credit card debt that she didn't know about, but she was still 50% responsible for it. He also stopped paying half of the mortgage and other things like that. It is still haunting her (credit history is shot) 20 years later, which is ridiculous. I guess there is no way to get him to see a financial advisor with you? I honestly don't know what to suggest as it seems he is not at all willing to change anything. He's too old to be acting this way. It almost seems like he's treating you like a mother instead of a partner. I hope something changes for you soon. Take care.

 

[Hest88]

Good luck Alli. I don't have much to add because my DH and I handle things differently. You have all my support, though, and I'm sending you strength for your conversation on Thursday.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Hm, I had not thought of the possibility that he is hiding HIS dept, and that is what is worrying him, not YOUR debt. I think this is a really good possibility and would explain his behaviour very well.

 

[diva rose]

Ali - big hugs for Thursday.
It must be very hard for you right now.

I think the PSers here have given you some great advice.

I am curious though with the bills getting split 50/50 - surely he eats more than you. So how is that equal?
Also..do you do more chores than him?
Who cooks dinner and who cleans etc?

 

[alli_esq]

Hi, everyone--I did some thinking and some calculating yesterday, and I came up with a plan that would put my mind at greater ease:
we would both put a pro rata percentage into our joint checking account based on our income (which we have had for years but have never used) for our joint expenses (like some of you suggested), keep a portion for ourselves individually in separate checking accounts, and then both contribute to our joint savings. Because he has the only 401(k) between us, and his company matches him 50%, it seems silly not to take advantage of that to the greatest extent we can, so I am going to suggest that he put in 10% of our joint income for both of our retirements (with the goal to increase that number as we go, and as we get closer to having enough for a down payment). Then, we can both have whatever is left over for our individual savings--he can save more individually since he makes more, but I still need to know that I can save SOMEthing for myself individually, even if it's only $50/month. We will both continue to be responsible for our own loans. I hope he will be open to this. We will see.

thing2: I don't know exactly how inflexible he's being--I will have to see how he feels about this plan. If he isn't open to this concept, then I will say that he's inflexible...but although it is hurtful to me to some extent, I do understand how nervous he is about the concept of being responsible for such a huge debt that he didn't take on himself. I'm not really defending his behavior, but I am saying that I know where he's coming from--I certainly wouldn't have married him if I didn't understand that about him and vowed to accept him as he is. You are right about paying for his loans though--I changed my mind after thinking about that in more depth.

NEL: You have some great suggestions. I am thinking that I might feel him out on Thursday, and maybe just start with the whole "let's sit down and write out our broad goals and then our individual goals," and perhaps talk a bit about our different options. DH is not as good with calculations as I am, but I think my spreadsheets are really clear...even so, I will feel him out and see how he feels before I whip out the ol' numbers. I do think we will need SEVERAL money dates to really parse out the issues here. As far as the saving for himself--he CLAIMS that the money he has saved is for "us" and that when the time comes to purchase a house, he will use that money. However, the fact that I have no actual access to the money except through him is a big barrier in my mind, and one that he has put there intentionally. The concept of it being in HIS account is what bothers me, and he just simply doesn't care, because if his fear is realized, and I leave him, he will have that money to himself (regardless of the fact that I have a legal claim to at least part of it--I still can't touch it right now because it's in an account only in his name).

Thanks for the well wishes--I can use them!

deco: I can afford to live how we do--as I explained, we live very meagerly, and our living expenses are drastically less than anyone I know who lives in our area (NYC). We have a hilariously old car (but no car payment), our apartment is unbelievably cheap for our area--the only thing that we can (and in my mind, MUST if we want to start aggressively saving) cut down on is going out to eat. I am willing to cook far more, if that is part of our plan, and that is one of the things I plan to bring up and suggest to him during this money date. The only thing about the level at which we live is that he can save and I cannot because he has a higher income and less debt. I realized, going through all this, that that is what bothers me the most: that he has been saving (rather haphazardly, i might add) in his own personal savings account and retirement account, and I have not been able to save for myself or for retirement.

TooPatient: you are right, I need to stay calm. For now, I think I am going to leave the loans out of the equation, since I am happy with the idea I came up with (that I explained here above), and I hope that if I leave that hot button issue out of the discussion, he might be more willing to see where I'm coming from. I also think he should start paying back more of his loans, and I do have the amortization schedules to show him how much he/we can save in interest payments if he starts putting more toward those loans, and for him to know that he could have them paid off so quickly, I hope he will be on board.

As far as emotional vs. detached, I don't know which works better with DH. He is a very emotional person, and if he is in the right mood, sweetness can go a long way with him, and an appeal to his fears--to tell him that I understand his concerns and I respect them enough to agree to not put him in what he considers a scary position--might be the way to go here. Again, I have to feel out his mood that day.

blackpaw: thank you for your support!

dreamer: thanks for understanding--I do think I will start off with the whole idea of goals, and I'll see if he's ready at that point to talk numbers. If not, we'll schedule another money date and work from there. I am hoping that all my preparation for this will pay off and that we won't get into a big fight.

And to be honest, I think my biggest problem in all this is that he's NOT treating me like a financial partner, and that we don't have any solid, discernible plan for our financial future together. I feel as if he's accepting my financial assistance for his life, and he's socking away money for a rainy day, while I don't have that protection (yes, yes, I have protection under the LAW, but that is really not the issue here...this is more about our relationship and how we feel about each other).

If I thought about leaving him about this issue, I wouldn't make much of a wife. It is frustrating and hurtful for me, but I know he's only feeling this way because he also has pain and trauma from past events in his life relating to money. One story that might give you some insight into where he's coming from: like I said, DH's parents didn't help him at all with college--which I understand to an extent, since they had little money themselves. However, at one point during college, when DH was especially struggling, his parents offered him $5,000 as a gift, to help with books and one class that he found out he had to take. He was so touched that they had scrounged together this money for him and he was so grateful that in his time of need, his parents really came through for him. Fast forward 10 years later, when he got the job that he has now--his mother announced to him that that $5,000 had, in fact, been a LOAN, and NOT a gift like she had originally said, and that his parents insisted that he pay it back to them. It wasn't so much the money that was an issue for DH at the time--but he was SO HURT that the one time he thought his parents had really done something kind for him was really a lie.

I feel that because of the way his parents have pulled the rug from underneath him, he is extremely wary and feels like he needs constant protection. Of course, I am not his parents, and I have tried as hard as possible to prove to him that I am not his parents...and that IS something he needs to get over...but at the same time, I can only imagine how emotional money has been for him in his life, and how hard his life has been at times because of money...

zipzapgirl: you make an excellent point. I am going to start out the conversation talking about our goals, and then shift and talk about figures when/if I feel it's appropriate. Maybe on another date. Thank you so much for your ideas and your well wishes.

octoberbride2008: I see that you have an idea as to where I'm coming from here. My new plan is to see if he will pay for a higher percentage of the joint bills--and to see if he will be willing to put less into his individual savings and more into our joint savings (his contribution to more of the bills will also allow me to put more into our joint savings, so if he sees it that way, maybe he will be more on board). Thank you for sharing your situation--it makes me feel better to know I'm not the only one with this issue--who still has a happy marriage, even if it's not "perfect."

Hudson: Like I said, I wouldn't have married the guy if I didn't think it was worth trying to get over the difficult issues with him. This is disappointing to me, as I thought that marriage might have changed his mind a bit about how he felt about our financial future together--but I have not given up hope. Also, I have myself set a precedent of paying 50%, even though that hasn't been "equitable"--I feel that, because I grew up with more money than he has, and I have the safety net of my parents, I wanted to prove to DH that I am still extremely responsible, that I have always wanted to be as independent as possible, and that I don't need for him to support me. I think I might have gone a bit over the deep end with all my equality talk, and that is part of the reason I find myself in this predicament.

And I know you're being flippant (and you're certainly entitled--and I'm not offended, of course), but DH is super smart (way smarter than me in MANY ways)--he's just also extremely emotional, and feels that his assets are better "protected" if they're in his name. I understand the impulse, as misguided as it is. The truth is, being a matrimonial lawyer, I would have NO interest in going after "his" assets if we were to get divorced--but I do think that while we are married it should be more equitable and we should clearly define our goals and save for them jointly. I hope he will agree to that.

Haven: Thanks for understanding--I will definitely try the discussion-of-goals tact first. I would like to feel that DH and I are on the same "team," and I know that that will take some hard emotional work for both of us. I hope that he will eventually come around...it's very hard when you have such ingrained views and are so fearful of having someone you trust desert you or screw you over

Yssie: yes, I know it seems very foreign to a lot of us who grew up in homes where our parents were a financial "team." DH grew up in a house like that too, but he disagrees with so much of what his family has done financially that it's hard for him to see the benefit. As I said, I have made it my job now to try to prove to DH (even though I realize I shouldn't have to--it's just part of being in a lifetime relationship with him, which I have determined to be worth it!) that I CAN be trusted and that we ARE there for one another, come good times and bad. Thanks for your well wishes!

FLSteph and lyra: I completely understand what you mean about being fuzzy on the details, but let me allay your fears...I say "fuzzy on the details" only because I don't know TO THE DOLLAR how much he owes (I know within a few hundred dollars) for his student loans, and I don't know the EXACT percentage of interest (I know within 1%)...I also don't know how many years he has to pay it back, because even HE hasn't kept track of that (he's so NOT on top of things the way I am). However, he is in the process of getting me a statement (again, he's MUCH less organized than I am and it takes him longer to do even those simple tasks). He told me he will have his most recent statement for me before Thursday. I am not worried that he has more debt than he claims--I just want to know exactly how much it is, how much interest he is being charged, and when he has to pay it back. Thank you for being concerned and for alerting me to what could possibly be catastrophic, but I assure you, that is not the issue here (though I FULLY understand why you think it might be!!!)

Hest: thank you so much for your supportive words!

divarose: haha, he does eat more than I do (though barely, and I definitely can hold my own, LOL)--and you're right, in a sense. Like I said before, I always did 50-50 because I felt that that would prove to him (and maybe to myself a bit--since I did grow up spoiled) that I am very responsible and very willing to contribute as much as I can to our relationship. I'd say we're no more/less than 60-40 with chores, me doing SLIGHTLY more (REALLY not much though), and I generally do the cooking (though I need to start cooking more and ordering out less--we really don't cook very often) because I enjoy it more...but DH is very appreciative of those things, and he does other stuff, like sweeping and always taking out the garbage. I honestly don't feel like our jobs are unequal, or at least not to the point where I am resentful--we each do the jobs we hate the least

 

[zoebartlett]

I'm learning a lot from this thread, thanks to DD's slides and advice, and the advice from others. I hope that things work out for you, Alli, and I hope your husband is willing to work with you in the future.

I noticed something from the example you gave regarding the money your husband's parents gave him (the gift that turned into a loan). You said he was so touched that his parents gave him something when he needed it. It sounded like he was struggling and they helped him so that he could reach his goal (taking/completing the class and therefore earning his degree). From everything you've said, you're in a similar position -- needing help, not to graduate, but to simply live your live more comfortably and to be on more secure ground, financially speaking. While reading that story, I couldn't understand why your husband is scared to pass the generosity on (the whole "pay it forward" concept). His parents helped him and he could help you. He met his goal and you could too...with his assistance. But he's choosing not to. You're not asking him to fund shopping sprees or anything that could be considered frivolous.

I really do wish that things work out for you. I know you've worked hard to get where you are (I've read other threads you've begun or contributed to). Hopefully your husband will agree to help you out once he sees that it really will benefit both of you in the long run.

 

[iheartscience]

alli-I guess you and I have different ideas of inflexible. To me, his unwillingness to compromise on pretty much anything thus far seems inflexible.

And as for the 401k, since it's solely in his name, I personally wouldn't feel comfortable contributing towards it. He's made it clear that what's his is his, so why should you use what little extra income you have to increase his 401k? I think you should play by the rules he's set.

Also, that story about the $5000 loan/gift doesn't seem like a horrible trauma, but I'm not sensitive. The bottom line is that he shouldn't take out his mommy/daddy issues on his wife.

Anyway, good luck to you. I hope your husband realizes how lucky he is to have you, because not many people would be nearly as understanding or as patient as you, myself included.

 

[zoebartlett]

alli-I guess you and I have different ideas of inflexible. To me, his unwillingness to compromise on pretty much anything thus far seems inflexible.

And as for the 401k, since it's solely in his name, I personally wouldn't feel comfortable contributing towards it. He's made it clear that what's his is his, so why should you use what little extra income you have to increase his 401k? I think you should play by the rules he's set.
Also, that story about the $5000 loan/gift doesn't seem like a horrible trauma, but I'm not sensitive. The bottom line is that he shouldn't take out his mommy/daddy issues on his wife.

Anyway, good luck to you. I hope your husband realizes how lucky he is to have you, because not many people would be nearly as understanding or as patient as you, myself included.

I agree with Thing2 on this. I know you're going to see how things go before showing your husband the numbers/spreadsheets, but I think you should do it soon. The longer it takes for him to see the numbers and exactly how his habits directly affect you, the longer it will take for things to sink in with him (hopefully) and change.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Hon, you know yourself and your relationship better than any of us. I too have money issues, and my issue is almost the reverse of your husbands -- I would be so hurt if my partner would not support my financially, because I contribute so much to his life is no many other ways. I suppose I see value wholistically, where ,equity is not about making the same contribution on everything, but is about making a wholisticallly fair contribution. The time you are spending thinking about this and planning this out is a contribution to the marriage. I hope he can learn to see that, and realize that you need his financial help now, and later he may need your help in another domain and you will give it.

If the money issues are indeed stemming from fear of rejection or his fears that you will leave him, then those underlying issues are the ones you need to address with him and the money issues will all just fall into place when he feels more secure. Hopefully when you talk he will be able to perhaps articulate that self-protection in the reason he is acting this way, or maybe you can gently suggest it and see how he reacts and if he can see that motive in himself.

You may also at some point talk to him about the fact that self-protection actually breeds rejection. By trying to protect himself from potential financial loss in the hypothetical future when you may leave him, he is alienating you and putting a strain on your marriage, and THAT, not his character or worthiness as a man, could eventually undermine your relationship to such an extent where you could leave. His behaviour, not who he is, could create the rejection he is trying to avoid. It is the great paradox of relational insecurity, and the great tragedy of insecurity -- that in trying to avoid pain and rejection, people actually bring it upon themselves.

 

[kama_s]

I noticed something from the example you gave regarding the money your husband's parents gave him (the gift that turned into a loan). You said he was so touched that his parents gave him something when he needed it. It sounded like he was struggling and they helped him so that he could reach his goal (taking/completing the class and therefore earning his degree). From everything you've said, you're in a similar position -- needing help, not to graduate, but to simply live your live more comfortably and to be on more secure ground, financially speaking. While reading that story, I couldn't understand why your husband is scared to pass the generosity on (the whole "pay it forward" concept). His parents helped him and he could help you. He met his goal and you could too...with his assistance. But he's choosing not to. You're not asking him to fund shopping sprees or anything that could be considered frivolous.

Zoe touched upon something I wanted to add in earlier but held my tongue. His past really should be no excuse for the way he is treating you and the marriage. I am not trying to minimize or trivialize what he went through with his parents, but people have fared worse and come through. He is just bitter, and there is nothing you can do about a bitter man.

My mother STOLE from me while I was in university. This is when I was working ridiculously hard to pay my own way through school - fees, rent, food everything. If my husband lost his job today, you better believe I will be feeding the first morsel of food into his mouth before mine.

I hope the talk with him on Thursday goes well. I'm rooting for you, Alli.