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Clarity enhanced not disclosed

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Man I least I know how to open a BIG can of worms, here is what the UGL certificate says

shape and cut square princess
measurements 7.10x6.70x4.90mm
carat weight 2.01
depth 73.1
table 76
girdle sl thick to thick
cutlet none
color grade f
calrity grade Si-1
polish/sym good
flor none

this ring has 4 small princess cut stones on each side of it and we paid 14,000US, the other stones are a total o .18ct colors g-h-i and clarity is vs-sI

As for going back there well there is no refund policy and how to we prove we were not told it was enhanced, we are well informed now I think but have no idea what to pay again, we are getting a full refund towards another one, however I want to make sure we dont get ripped again, I dont think we will honestly I dont just need to be well informed this time
 
You have proof right there that the certificate does not disclose it is clarity enhanced! Plus, they massively overcharged you at $14,000! Seriously, that is a scam!!!!

You may need a lawyer to write them a letter or something. Hopefully one of the appriasers will come back and advise you.
 
Date: 10/6/2008 6:10:13 PM
Author: jigmie
they have been great with us so far and doesnt everyone deserve a second chance.
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I guess we just disagree on what constitutes being wonderful.

Ok, so give him a second chance ….. AFTER you get your refund. You are being held hostage here. You are unable to shop him against anyone else because your money has been converted from cash into a store credit that is good only at one store. This has been done through an illegal and fraudulent transaction and you don’t seem to be bothered at all by this little slight of hand. That’s even ignoring the fact that he’s asking you to fly from EDMONTON to New York even to get that. You’re already way past the second chance. You got taken once by selling you a misrepresented stone. You got taken a second time by refusing your refund and sticking you with a store credit instead. You are being taken for a fool. For your sake I hope he’s wrong.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 
I appreciate your nay-sayer''s advice...but I don''t know what kind of hard ball you can play, too.

Maybe decide after you determine you cannot get what you want from them.

You might consider something like this sort of a target.

Meanwhile, also, you might try to figure out what you can do if you don''t get what you want...getting your ducks in order.
 
Maybe post his name here on Pricescope and tell him he is very famous!
 
Date: 10/6/2008 6:10:13 PM
Author: jigmie
damn ''Canadian Mentality'' in us, they have been great with us so far and doesnt everyone deserve a second chance. I must also admit, that we were caught up in the moment and should have done more studying on princess diamonds and diamonds period as we would have known what questions to ask, so a little little bit of the onus is one us.
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HI:

It sounds as though you are relieved this vendor is actually "helping" you, and are therefore, settling. Honestly? Good luck!

cheers--Sharon
 
HOW AWFUL! I would try and get your money back----that is VERY wrong of them.
 
Date: 10/6/2008 9:50:09 PM
Author: denverappraiser

Date: 10/6/2008 6:10:13 PM
Author: jigmie
they have been great with us so far and doesnt everyone deserve a second chance.
Click to expand...
I guess we just disagree on what constitutes being wonderful.

Ok, so give him a second chance ….. AFTER you get your refund. You are being held hostage here. You are unable to shop him against anyone else because your money has been converted from cash into a store credit that is good only at one store. This has been done through an illegal and fraudulent transaction and you don’t seem to be bothered at all by this little slight of hand. That’s even ignoring the fact that he’s asking you to fly from EDMONTON to New York even to get that. You’re already way past the second chance. You got taken once by selling you a misrepresented stone. You got taken a second time by refusing your refund and sticking you with a store credit instead. You are being taken for a fool. For your sake I hope he’s wrong.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
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I absolutley agree 100%.

I am also familiar with the response of the poster here. When you are not street wise & or have a strong aversion to any type of confrontation you tend to look away when things dont go your way.

I am inclined to think that this couple were so traumatised to find themselves in this situation (hole) that to get any help at all (even from the person who put them in the hole) is a huge relief.

I am also sure that the vendor involved is extreemly charming & charasmatic, as you do find is the case with most con artists.

Another way of understanding this situation is the way hostage victims begin to sympathise and genuinely like their capturers as a way of coping with the trauma.

I hope logic prevails as its no mean feat that everyone here from all walks of life and all over the world have given the SAME advice!!!!!!
 
Date: 10/6/2008 9:50:09 PM
Author: denverappraiser

Date: 10/6/2008 6:10:13 PM
Author: jigmie
they have been great with us so far and doesnt everyone deserve a second chance.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
No way if someone is dishonest with me!!!!
38.gif
 
Date: 10/6/2008 9:50:09 PM
Author: denverappraiser



Date: 10/6/2008 6:10:13 PM
Author: jigmie
they have been great with us so far and doesnt everyone deserve a second chance.
Click to expand...
I guess we just disagree on what constitutes being wonderful.

Ok, so give him a second chance ….. AFTER you get your refund. You are being held hostage here. You are unable to shop him against anyone else because your money has been converted from cash into a store credit that is good only at one store. This has been done through an illegal and fraudulent transaction and you don’t seem to be bothered at all by this little slight of hand. That’s even ignoring the fact that he’s asking you to fly from EDMONTON to New York even to get that. You’re already way past the second chance. You got taken once by selling you a misrepresented stone. You got taken a second time by refusing your refund and sticking you with a store credit instead. You are being taken for a fool. For your sake I hope he’s wrong.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
Click to expand...
Agreed 1000%.
Jigme, I'm sorry if this may come off as harsh, but you came here asking for advice. You got a resounding answer, from highly qualified Independent appraisers and long time diamond enthusiasts / experts, all saying the same thing. And you decided to do the exact opposite. As I said in my first post, you are being taken advantage of - and as a consumer on the other side of the world who has never met you , it makes my blood boil to hear that you are letting them do so.
Unsrcupulous vendors like this prey on the uneducated, like you and your partner were when you first went into this. If no one stands up to them, they will continue to take the p**s with other couples and their hard - earned money. You can get some suggestions of what to look for in a good princess here, and educate yourself about the 4 c's a bit - but if they still want to rip you, then this small amount of knowledge is not going to stop them.
Neil makes some very good points above, hopefully it is food for thought for you and your partner.

Again, I am sincerely sorry for your predicament - you didn't know any better when you walked into their store.
But, now you do - so imo there is no rational explanation to continue to waste your time and money there.

I wish you good luck, but I sincerely hope you think again about your plan of action.

regards
aj.
 

I think it might be time to suggest you will have a private investigator (an expert PScope sleuth?) invade this guys space and take several photographs of him and his store or office door, and post them here on Pricescope.


Dave is right on the one hand that you do not want to get the back up of people like this - but on the other hand, it makes me - a somewhat respected trinket flogger - feel embarassed by the behaviour of a fellow trinket flogger.

But crooks are crooks and desrve to be interned in a stock and have rotten fruit thrown at them
 
Date: 10/7/2008 6:23:39 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

I think it might be time to suggest you will have a private investigator (an expert PScope sleuth?) invade this guys space and take several photographs of him and his store or office door, and post them here on Pricescope.




Good Idea!
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With his fraudulent misrepresentation, you have EVERY right to demand a full refund. The fact that your cert does not mention the CE, that is your proof along with your appraisal!!!


I wish you felt bold enough to demand your money back and start someplace else armed with your PS knowledge. He certainly shouldn''t be getting another penny of your money for a quality stone. He dupped you into thinking he already sold you a quality stone.

Good luck!
 
Date: 10/7/2008 6:23:39 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

I think it might be time to suggest you will have a private investigator (an expert PScope sleuth?) invade this guys space and take several photographs of him and his store or office door, and post them here on Pricescope.



Dave is right on the one hand that you do not want to get the back up of people like this - but on the other hand, it makes me - a somewhat respected trinket flogger - feel embarassed by the behaviour of a fellow trinket flogger.

But crooks are crooks and desrve to be interned in a stock and have rotten fruit thrown at them
Click to expand...

I have seen some of the trinkets you flog.

Ladies, you can let Garry flog you with his trinkets any time, they are some mighty nice trinkets!

Wink
 
Date: 10/7/2008 8:34:21 AM
Author: Wink

Date: 10/7/2008 6:23:39 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)


I think it might be time to suggest you will have a private investigator (an expert PScope sleuth?) invade this guys space and take several photographs of him and his store or office door, and post them here on Pricescope.




Dave is right on the one hand that you do not want to get the back up of people like this - but on the other hand, it makes me - a somewhat respected trinket flogger - feel embarassed by the behaviour of a fellow trinket flogger.

But crooks are crooks and desrve to be interned in a stock and have rotten fruit thrown at them
Click to expand...

I have seen some of the trinkets you flog.

Ladies, you can let Garry flog you with his trinkets any time, they are some mighty nice trinkets!

Wink
Click to expand...
ROFL!
me first !
 
I wish I were your friend and neighbor because believe me this would have an entirely different outcome. You can''t deal with the conflict? No problem, I can deal with it for you !!!

There is no way you would come out of this fiasco with anything less than a full refund, and the right to go shopping for your perfect diamond anywhere you pleased.

That you are entertaining the idea of dealing with this crook is mind boggling.
38.gif


This wasn''t a "mistake" (as in entitled to one mistake), this was F-R-A-U-D
29.gif
 
Date: 10/7/2008 8:34:21 AM
Author: Wink

Date: 10/7/2008 6:23:39 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)


I think it might be time to suggest you will have a private investigator (an expert PScope sleuth?) invade this guys space and take several photographs of him and his store or office door, and post them here on Pricescope.




Dave is right on the one hand that you do not want to get the back up of people like this - but on the other hand, it makes me - a somewhat respected trinket flogger - feel embarassed by the behaviour of a fellow trinket flogger.

But crooks are crooks and desrve to be interned in a stock and have rotten fruit thrown at them
Click to expand...

I have seen some of the trinkets you flog.

Ladies, you can let Garry flog you with his trinkets any time, they are some mighty nice trinkets!

Wink
Click to expand...
30.gif
11.gif
 
Since Jigmie shared his specific concern...


Date: 10/6/2008 8:20:12 PM
Author: jigmie

As for going back there well there is no refund policy and how to we prove we were not told it was enhanced, we are well informed now I think but have no idea what to pay again, we are getting a full refund towards another one, however I want to make sure we dont get ripped again, I dont think we will honestly I dont just need to be well informed this time
Click to expand...
...I''m sure he, also as an international, and I, too, would be interested to know what actions would follow much of the bravado that has been shared.
 
I agree with most of the comments on here. However, instaed of just saying I want my money back what are other options we can give to get a refund. Basically if she states she wants a full refund and he says sorry not store policy, what recourse does an INTERNATIONAL buyer have. What are the steps that need to be taken to get a full refund, so that a purchase can be made from a reputable dealer? Edmonton to NY is a long way away, and I thinnk this crook knows this and doesn't care cause he is a crook and already has the money. Besides making a fuss and demanding a refund, what other options are there. Again, I think the crook will just answer sorry store policy. We've heard a few sad store policy stories on here... WHAT CAN AN INTERNATIONAL BUYER DO IN A SITUATION LIKE THIS???
 
I think we should try to make this less hard for anyone who might have something that looks like a good idea of any kind...one that is actionable.

Let's forget the International part.

What if you're either local, or a US citizen.

There's things like the Better Business Bureau...but I'm thinking this won't get the job done...though no harm...at some point.

Strategies for helping...beyond what Jigme has already come up with...like working with the vendor, could only help. Likewise...consistent with the strategy of working with the vendor...knowing what sorts of pressure points exist if the vendor is not yielding could help, too.

Or...if just being indignant, and not working with them is the way....so...how do you do that, exactly...if you ask for your money back (sweetly or not), and they say no...



OK...edited to add...I'll throw in now with everybody else and DO think Jigme should find a "feeling sensitive" way to honestly represent they would like to make a fresh start, get money back, and start over. Then...once money is back...Jigme could decide to change mind or not. So, yes...I'd favor trying that...too. Then, failing that...we're back to some of these recent questions, I think. But...no reason not to go for a fresh start, I say.

Sorry to talk out of both sides of my mouth...but it's my dime (or actually...Jigme's).
 
OK guys, wow what a chat this has become, I THANK all of you for your input and yes I truly do appreciate the comments whether they agree with me or not. But it is very easy when its not you in this position (no disrespect intented). This was a large investment to us, it was for our 25th anniversary and YES we should have know more and we didnt, again trusted who we were buying from. I would love to publish their name, but where is that going to get me at this moment, they are adamant that they will make this right, this was their words not mine. Yes they scammed us the first time however not a second, if any of you want to meet me there great, going in November however, due to costs I am the only one flying out with a huge folder of all comments. Threaten them right now could hurt me, I just cant take that chance, they say they mentioned "enhanced" we say they didnt, as someone else said the legal costs to pursue a total refund would far exceed the cost of travel, I know the majority of you dont agree, and I totally understand, however I need to do what I feel is right in order to get this rectified, is it the right thing we will know in November and if I at that time dont get the stone I want for the right price, then I will start throwing out the FTC and legal avenues, but as we all know they have more money than I and believe me I know, I work in an environment where legal battles are fought all the time and the "onus" is definately on me.......Again, yes you are right, i did start this chat by asking for help and believe me have taken everything all of you have said into account, you may disagree with me and I respect that but the jeweller knows that we are much more informed now they also know we are not happy and have promised to set things right. I guess crazy yes, probably, but I have to try this way first, would I buy from them again after this NO, would I recommend NO, and to look at this in a positive way who wouldnt want a trip to New York. Sorry for rambling everyone and I DO honestly appreciate all the comments whether for me or against.
 
Date: 10/6/2008 6:10:13 PM
Author: jigmie
He has told us that we can take it to any appraiser in NY to verify that the stone is exactly what he is selling us.
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Jigmie,

It’s worth noting that most qualified independent appraisers are fairly busy people and it may not be possible to set an appointment in a hurry while you’re in NYC. If you go this route you might want to schedule your time in advance of your trip so that you can pick up the diamond(s) that the jeweler has chosen for you and proceed directly to the appraiser’s office. Do make sure to use an appraiser chosen by YOU, not the jeweler.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver
 
Date: 10/7/2008 12:15:50 PM
Author: Regular Guy
I think we should try to make this less hard for anyone who might have something that looks like a good idea of any kind...one that is actionable.


Let's forget the International part.


What if you're either local, or a US citizen.


There's things like the Better Business Bureau...but I'm thinking this won't get the job done...though no harm...at some point.


Strategies for helping...beyond what Jigme has already come up with...like working with the vendor, could only help. Likewise...consistent with the strategy of working with the vendor...knowing what sorts of pressure points exist if the vendor is not yielding could help, too.


Or...if just being indignant, and not working with them is the way....so...how do you do that, exactly...if you ask for your money back (sweetly or not), and they say no...
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Ira,

The only available strong point of leverage for a customer in this situation is through the credit card company, something we haven’t even confirmed is available for this situation. The next layer, the New York district attorney’s office, is FAR less likely to end up satisfactorily although it would much easier for a US resident. Indeed it may be better for her to cut her losses and just hope the jeweler provides something that will be acceptable. Writing off a few thousand dollars to poor shopping skills is painful but survivable although I would hardly call this an example of a jeweler treating her wonderfully. BBB is toothless but a nice gesture for the benefit of the next shopper. JVC is a little better but they do have a fee for getting involved, $100 I think and, in the end, they’re fairly toothless as well.

If Jigme is unwilling to make waves, she is throwing herself completely at the mercy of the jeweler. Maybe that’ll work out ok and maybe it’s even the best choice here, but I see little or nothing to be gained by going to NYC unless she simply wants to go there for some other reason.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver
 
Believe me If I was going to NY for another reason it would be longer than arriving Sunday night at 5:30pm and leaving Tuesday afternoon at 4:00pm. They have stated that it will take only one day to take this stone out and reset the new one and that is all the time I have given them. As for not being more forceful, I wish I could however already talked to the credit card company and as the seller is willing to correct the error I must proceed with this avenue first. So as you can see I have to try to be as diplomatic as possible before making other threats. I know by the sounds of it, you all think I am being spineless, you have that right, but I am trying to make sure I dont P%SS them off enough to kick me out the door and then start an expensive legal battle from here to there
 
Ok, how about this then.

1) Hire a NYC appraiser to act as your local eyes and ears. There’s a list at the top of the page under ‘resources’. If you use the 'search' box near the top right corner of the page and search for their name you can see what previous clients have had to say about them by searching for their name.

2) Have the jeweler choose a stone that he feels will be acceptable. As with the above series of advisors I would strongly suggest a GIA or AGS grading report as a minimum spec. Have the jeweler scan or fax you the GIA report and post it here for comments if it otherwise looks reasonable to you. You should probably start a new thread for this purpose by the way. If they can do it, get a Sarin scan done and send you this report as well but don’t hold your breath for this, most jewelers either can't or won't do it and I'm a little light on confidence in these guys.

3) If people here think the stone has good potential, have the jeweler send it, unmounted, to the appraiser for inspection. Have the appraiser send you his/her report by email. If it passes their muster, FedEx your ring to the jeweler and have the change the stones and deliver it back to the appraiser for final inspection and again a report to you. If all goes well, have the appraiser (not the jeweler) FedEx it to you. If there’s a problem it goes straight back to the jeweler to be fixed.

4) Pay the appraiser their fees and spend your travel money and vacation time going somewhere you actually want to go.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver
 
Date: 10/7/2008 1:14:32 PM
Author: jigmie
As for not being more forceful, I wish I could however already talked to the credit card company and as the seller is willing to correct the error I must proceed with this avenue first.
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Jigmie,

Denver has suggested an avenue by which your jeweler can make repair. Your credit card company, I would think, would not require you to travel to accomplish what is frequently, under normal practice, done by the mail.

David Wolf in NY (see upper right for a list of appraisers) is frequently used and seems trusted in NY, and your jeweler may like this local aspect. For that matter...using the mails, Richard Sherwood in FL...or even some guy in Colorado, named Neil could provide this service to you (and he''s already got some background, too boot).

Bottom line...it sounds like great news that you have engaged your credit card company. Since it''s a matter of just details now to establish under what circumstance you can make a complaint...see what they''ll make you do to get satisfaction. I doubt they''ll require you travel to NY, and your solution can be negotiated with an expert appraiser to boot.

Wishing you well with this...
 
Your idea of hiring an appraiser is a wonderful idea and thank you I will be doing that for sure, however Air Canada had a seat sale during the time that I am going and believe it or now, when I checked with UPS to have the ring couriered there, insured and with confirmation of delivery with the seat sale it was only 15.00 more for my to fly, that is why we made this decision. We will be using airmiles points for a hotel, so as you can see we are trying to make this as financially painless as possible. I am definately taking your advise with the appraiser, I did not know that you could do this and I certainly would feel more comfortable
 
jigmie,

Happy 25th Anniversary!!!



sorry you have to deal with this frustration,and


I hope you end up with something you love to celebrate your 25th with!
 
Sounds like there may at least be reasons of economy to continue this in person...though I had thought doing these communications at a distance could have removed some heat and added clarity. Regardless...you still might consider tackling the major work in advance of ever showing up...i.e., getting agreement in principle at least about the character of the diamond they'll have in place for you to consider (and unfortunately or not, I think only an AGS option with 0 for cut will reveal anything "documetable" about performance). I can't see why they wouldn't accept a conversation and agreement in principle about this in advance. Then, when they do agree, you can triangulate in advance with your credit card company, too, and have them confirm what they've told you...within a range of parameters. Then, if it should come to pass when you show up that they don't produce what you (and the credit card company) agree you'd accept...all bets are off, and you can then leave it to the CCC to pursue.

Hopefully, of course, it will go perfectly.

Regards,
 
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