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Clarity enhanced not disclosed

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jigmie

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 3, 2008
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Thank you to everyone for your help with a 2ct princess cut stone we purchased in NY and it was not disclosed to us until our jeweller here in Edmonton Canada advised us of this. Anyways all of your comments were great and yes the jeweller is now willing to take the stone back and exchange it for a "non enhanced" stone. He is telling us that we can get an UGL certified stone not enhanced without extra cost, this diamond is rated at "F" vs1 2.01ct. or we would have to pay more and get a IGI /AGS rated stone and would have to pay more. We have been reading furiously over the last few days and I am so confused. What is a good company to get the certification from and about just a ball park how much more will be we paying , can anyone help me with this, I am so confused, I have read so many articles regarding the 4 c''s and Diamond certification, we need to let them know and then I think we or just (me) going to fly down there for a few days to make sure the stone put in the ring is the one I pick.

thx everyone
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A certified stone will be more expensive than a non-certified stone but I couldn't give you a formula (I am not expert) since the cost depends so much on the actual stone and the cut. But if I were you I'd want my money back simply based on the principal that they lied to you. Then I'd get a gorgeous stone, maybe a tad smaller but a certified beauty from another vendor.

1.76 ct G
 
Yeah, if they lied to you, get your money back and give it to somebody honest instead!
 
I agree, a jeweler not disclosing a diamond is clarity enhanced is not a trivial thing. Get your dollars back and go elsewhere.
 
Go elsewhere please, he was dishonest once it''s likely they will be dishonest again...
 
I agree that you should get your money back and start over...a vendar that is stearing you away from certed gems may have something to hide in the quality he is trying to sell you....
 
AGS and GIA are the labs with the best reputation for strict and consistent grading standards. Diamonds graded by other labs, such as IGI or EGL-USA, may be fine but sell at a discount relative to diamonds with the same grade from AGS or GIA because IGI and EGL have looser standards. In other words, the price for a F/SI1 stone with an EGL cert should be lower than a stone with the same grade from GIA, because GIA would likely have issued the EGL stone a lower grade.

I second the others to get your money back flat out if possible due to the misrepresentation and then purchase from someone more honest. If you paid by credit card, maybe the credit card company can help.

Going forward, one easier way to get a better princess is to look for those with an AGS certificate and an AGS 0 on the cut grade. Cut is important to the sparkliness of the diamond and most other labs do not issue useful grades for the cut of princesses.

You may very well have to go smaller to get an ideal cut princess with a cert from a reputable company for the same money. But it would be a better stone. Also, going slightly lower in color than F would help save money and be fine for most people.
 
if it you know exactly what you are looking for , you might want to consider investigating private party sales.

Some people, myself included, have even found good stones at great prices on Ebay! And you CAN find good honest sellers if you do your homework and ask lots of questions.

goodluck.
 
Date: 9/22/2008 6:02:43 PM
Author: neatfreak
Go elsewhere please, he was dishonest once it''s likely they will be dishonest again...
Click to expand...

Ditto! I would demand a refund. Why continue to work with someone as dishonest as them?

And as Cara wrote, AGS and GIA are the most well-regarded labs. I personally would not purchase a (modern cut) diamond if it didn''t have a GIA or AGS certificate.
 
Wow thank you to everyone, you have all been so very helpful, unfortunately we dont really have an option the only option he is giving us it to exchange the stone for the one we want. We have decided to go to NY (which we will discuss with him re cost) to ensure that we see the certificate with the stone. He will not offer a refund only an exchange. I am going to ensure that we do not get a UGL cert stone only AGS or GIA we are willing to pay more however he is going to have to absorb some of our costs, he wanted us to ship the stone back and he would exchange, no way, a little smarter this time, we will not leave the store until the stone we pick is mounted. We just need to be more informed as to cut, clarity etc of the stone we want as we need to give him two weeks notice so that he can order those stones in and have them there when we arrive.
 
I don''t think you''ve made this clear to the seller. It isn''t their option whether or not to refund your money. They sold you a diamond without disclosing the fact that it was clarity enhanced (illegal not to disclose), AND they told you it would be accompanied by a GIA document when it was not (fraudulant misrepresentation).

If you used a credit card then return the diamond insured and require a signature of receipt, and charge back on your credit card. If you paid in cash then tell them you are reporting them to the Better Business Bureau AND the attorney general of New York.

No way should you be stuck with these frauds. They''re ALREADY trying to dupe you AGAIN by telling you that you will have to "pay more" for a GIA/AGS documented stone. Excuuuuuuse me, but didn''t you pay for GIA the first time and didn''t they lie about it
29.gif


You need to toughen up and get out of this mess before it gets even uglier.
 
I assume you didn't pay with credit card? Because if you did, you could still contact the credit card regarding the situation.

Also, do NOT have the jeweler mount the stone. Take it directly to an independent appraiser unmounted. You might research to find one nearby. The independent appraiser can document if the stone is what they say it is.
 
Date: 9/23/2008 1:02:12 PM
Author: purrfectpear
I don''t think you''ve made this clear to the seller. It isn''t their option whether or not to refund your money. They sold you a diamond without disclosing the fact that it was clarity enhanced (illegal not to disclose), AND they told you it would be accompanied by a GIA document when it was not (fraudulant misrepresentation).

If you used a credit card then return the diamond insured and require a signature of receipt, and charge back on your credit card. If you paid in cash then tell them you are reporting them to the Better Business Bureau AND the attorney general of New York.

No way should you be stuck with these frauds. They''re ALREADY trying to dupe you AGAIN by telling you that you will have to ''pay more'' for a GIA/AGS documented stone. Excuuuuuuse me, but didn''t you pay for GIA the first time and didn''t they lie about it
29.gif


You need to toughen up and get out of this mess before it gets even uglier.
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Well said ....Listen to her advise...they dont tell you...you tell them!
 
Ditto - they have clearly acted illegally and you have absolute recourse to get your money back in full. Tell them that in no uncertain terms and mention that you will report them if they don''t refund your money on the spot. Unscrupulous people will continue to get away with things like this unless someone stands up and says it''s not on!!
 
Date: 9/23/2008 1:02:12 PM
Author: purrfectpear
I don't think you've made this clear to the seller. It isn't their option whether or not to refund your money. They sold you a diamond without disclosing the fact that it was clarity enhanced (illegal not to disclose), AND they told you it would be accompanied by a GIA document when it was not (fraudulant misrepresentation).

If you used a credit card then return the diamond insured and require a signature of receipt, and charge back on your credit card. If you paid in cash then tell them you are reporting them to the Better Business Bureau AND the attorney general of New York.

No way should you be stuck with these frauds. They're ALREADY trying to dupe you AGAIN by telling you that you will have to 'pay more' for a GIA/AGS documented stone. Excuuuuuuse me, but didn't you pay for GIA the first time and didn't they lie about it
29.gif


You need to toughen up and get out of this mess before it gets even uglier.
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Agreed 110%, I have no idea how you are still considering dealing with them. They clearly think you are gullible and are taking advantage.
I'm sorry I don't live in the US so I don't know what its called, but there is a Jewellers' Board you may be able to put a complaint into, as well as the BBB.
You DO NOT have to accept this crap !

Also, as was mentioned, if there is no other way and you have to take an exchange, PLEASE make it final only upon a favourable report from an Independent Appraiser - and not one that the seller suggests ! There is a list of reputable ones at the top under resources.

But honestly, I would only look at an exchange as a final resort. Please take the advice here, take your $ and run!
 
Ask for a complete refund and go elsewhere for your diamond. If they used IGI/AGS as an alternative, they are being dishonest again. AGS grades superior stones, IGI doesn''t.
 
Date: 9/22/2008 7:30:11 PM
Author: cara
AGS and GIA are the labs with the best reputation for strict and consistent grading standards. Diamonds graded by other labs, such as IGI or EGL-USA, may be fine but sell at a discount relative to diamonds with the same grade from AGS or GIA because IGI and EGL have looser standards. In other words, the price for a F/SI1 stone with an EGL cert should be lower than a stone with the same grade from GIA, because GIA would likely have issued the EGL stone a lower grade.

I second the others to get your money back flat out if possible due to the misrepresentation and then purchase from someone more honest. If you paid by credit card, maybe the credit card company can help.

Going forward, one easier way to get a better princess is to look for those with an AGS certificate and an AGS 0 on the cut grade. Cut is important to the sparkliness of the diamond and most other labs do not issue useful grades for the cut of princesses.

You may very well have to go smaller to get an ideal cut princess with a cert from a reputable company for the same money. But it would be a better stone. Also, going slightly lower in color than F would help save money and be fine for most people.
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All clarity grading, no matter what lab it came from, is the expressed OPINION of the respective preliminary grader and the doubler. All labs pull their diamond graders from the GIA school, where everyone is essentially taught the same methods of diamond grading but it does not mean that they are pro's at it. Because you pay GIA Education the money for enrollment and you complete the class it does not mean that you are the cream of the crop in diamond grading and/or gemstone identification.

With this said most of the resident students in GIA get approached about working in a lab. IGI and EGL recruit extensively at the schools, while the GIA GTL approaches the students they see can handle the job of lab grading.

Handling the job does not qualify as being a good grader, even if you work at GIA. They do not always hire the best from their own school because they're reluctant to pay what's considered a decent salary in this field. IGI and EGL do offer more money to prospective graders. The overall attitude about these lab's "reputation" often come from people who have never seen the inside of a gemological laboratory nor do they know what exactly the job entails.

I chose your post becasue this misinformed opinion about labs is no more that gossip and heresay. Spreading this does have the effect of making GIA look golden, need I remind you of the scandal. But even this event didn't shake customer confidence about the "quality and accuracy" of their report nor did it discredit them like so many other consumers discredit the work performed by EGL or IGI.

Any lab or lab grader can, and sometimes do make a mistake that gets printed. Hence the "Important Limitations" printed on the back of any report that clears them of the fact they are human and capable of error.
 
Date: 9/24/2008 12:34:47 PM
Author: Indented Natural
Date: 9/22/2008 7:30:11 PM

Author: cara

AGS and GIA are the labs with the best reputation for strict and consistent grading standards. Diamonds graded by other labs, such as IGI or EGL-USA, may be fine but sell at a discount relative to diamonds with the same grade from AGS or GIA because IGI and EGL have looser standards. In other words, the price for a F/SI1 stone with an EGL cert should be lower than a stone with the same grade from GIA, because GIA would likely have issued the EGL stone a lower grade.


I second the others to get your money back flat out if possible due to the misrepresentation and then purchase from someone more honest. If you paid by credit card, maybe the credit card company can help.


Going forward, one easier way to get a better princess is to look for those with an AGS certificate and an AGS 0 on the cut grade. Cut is important to the sparkliness of the diamond and most other labs do not issue useful grades for the cut of princesses.


You may very well have to go smaller to get an ideal cut princess with a cert from a reputable company for the same money. But it would be a better stone. Also, going slightly lower in color than F would help save money and be fine for most people.
Click to expand...

All clarity grading, no matter what lab it came from, is the expressed OPINION of the respective preliminary grader and the doubler. All labs pull their diamond graders from the GIA school, where everyone is essentially taught the same methods of diamond grading but it does not mean that they are pro's at it. Because you pay GIA Education the money for enrollment and you complete the class it does not mean that you are the cream of the crop in diamond grading and/or gemstone identification.


With this said most of the resident students in GIA get approached about working in a lab. IGI and EGL recruit extensively at the schools, while the GIA GTL approaches the students they see can handle the job of lab grading.


Handling the job does not qualify as being a good grader, even if you work at GIA. They do not always hire the best from their own school because they're reluctant to pay what's considered a decent salary in this field. IGI and EGL do offer more money to prospective graders. The overall attitude about these lab's 'reputation' often come from people who have never seen the inside of a gemological laboratory nor do they know what exactly the job entails.


I chose your post becasue this misinformed opinion about labs is no more that gossip and heresay. Spreading this does have the effect of making GIA look golden, need I remind you of the scandal. But even this event didn't shake customer confidence about the 'quality and accuracy' of their report nor did it discredit them like so many other consumers discredit the work performed by EGL or IGI.


Any lab or lab grader can, and sometimes do make a mistake that gets printed. Hence the 'Important Limitations' printed on the back of any report that clears them of the fact they are human and capable of error.
Click to expand...
Hi Indented,

Welcome to the forum,

I must say, this is an odd choice of a thread and an odd comment to dive into with your first post but I’m confused by your post in any case.

Is the ‘gossip and hearsay’ that you’re commenting on the observation that IGI, EGL, EGL-USA and paperwork from other labs will cause a stone to sell at a discount from similarly graded stones offered by AGS & GIA? That’s the substance of the post you’re quoting and it’s pretty easy to demonstrate as correct by simply looking in the database here and noticing what people are asking for various stones.

By the way. Are you in the diamond business and/or affiliated with any lab?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver
 
The opening post is about getting sold a CE diamond. They want a natural replacement and are offered a stone appraised by UGL.

The post I replied did not address that, and spreads the misconceptions people have about these labs.

Yes I am in the diamond business and I have worked for two of the four labs mentioned here.

I know what it''s like to grade diamonds for a living, and I know there''s a WIDE OPEN window of error making these reports. GIA cannot say their reports are not without error.

No lab can ever make this claim.
 
What misconceptions in particular were you referring to?

That AGS/GIA have a better reputation?
That a stone with a certain grade from AGS/GIA would sell for more money than a similar stone with the same grades from a IGI/EGL?

I find it difficult to believe that there are not systemic grading differences between the labs, and that these systemic differences are reflected in market pricing. If they really have the same grading standards and same consistency, then the marketplace isn''t functioning very well at pricing things.

Either way, just because you feel that the reputation or pricing discrepancies are unwarranted doesn''t mean they are don''t exist. And if the market prices GIA and EGL stones differently, surely that is a useful piece of information for the OP as he enters into negotiations with his crooked jeweler.

In case I wasn''t clear, yes, grades are opinions, certs are pieces of paper and not diamonds, and no lab is "perfect." Just because a stone has an EGL cert doesn''t mean that it is a bad stone, and just because a stone has a GIA cert doesn''t mean it is a good stone.

However. This man has already been ripped off to some extent, as the jeweler sold him something without disclosing the clarity enhancement. I wouldn''t trust the jeweler as far as I could throw him, and the OP seemed in need of some advice.

My advice is that the OP try to get his money back and take his business elsewhere. Barring that, look for a princess with an AGS 0 cut grade, and take whatever he buys promptly to an independent appraiser in NY for immediate verification. Are there other beautiful princesses out there certed by other labs? Surely. But since I don''t recommend that he actually trust his jeweler''s opinion, he could at least use the opinion of a respected grading lab regarding cut quality. As far as I know, other labs don''t offer their opinion on princess cut quality. Or he could educate himself, buy an idealscope and whatnot, do some of his own research at other stores, and try not to get screwed again by this unscrupulous person.
 
Indented, two comments.

The policy guidelines do suggest you identify yourself.

Me, I''m a regular guy (though something of an enthusiast).

Also, I never can understood those people, who...when you ask them, on average...say...score higher on one scale than another...end up saying...it all depends.

Well...it really doesn''t. That''s the point of averages. You know what I mean?

Any sentiment about the certifying agencies, I read, are made...based on accumulated experience. For a one-off grading...not much can be said, I am sure. But who is talking about that?
 
To the OP...I am sorry, but I agree with those that have said you should not deal with this jeweler any further. He was very sneaky in not disclosing the CE, and he probably figured that you would never have found out at all.

I would TELL him that you will settle for nothing other than a full refund of your money,
 
Date: 9/24/2008 1:12:28 PM
Author: Indented Natural
The opening post is about getting sold a CE diamond. They want a natural replacement and are offered a stone appraised by UGL.

The post I replied did not address that, and spreads the misconceptions people have about these labs.

Yes I am in the diamond business and I have worked for two of the four labs mentioned here.

I know what it''s like to grade diamonds for a living, and I know there''s a WIDE OPEN window of error making these reports. GIA cannot say their reports are not without error.

No lab can ever make this claim.
Click to expand...

Your experience as a lab employee and general insider is certainly valuable but I’m still not understanding your point.

What misconception?

I assume it has to do with the ‘reputation’ issue of the labs and the expectation that a shopper is more likely to get an acceptable stone of a particular grade if it’s been graded by one lab over another. Do you disagree with this? Since anyone who wants to can call themselves a gemological lab and since GIA graduates are as easy as pie to hire, the mere presence of a lab report signed by a GG means very little if you don’t consider the credibility of the lab issuing the report. Again, do you disagree with this? Do you consider clarity grading by UGL to be equally reliable to grading by, say, GIA?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver
 
Is this a glass in-filled diamond or a laser treated diamond? This would make some difference as the glass in-filled merchandise can be quite fragile while most laser drilled stones have no durability issue due to very small zone of the treatment process. As a rule of thumb, most Imperfect clarity diamonds have more breakage potential than higher clarity stones anyway. Not 100% true, but nearly 100%.

What grade of color and clarity is the current diamond according to your local trusted jeweler? Do you like the diamond? Is it a good value? Why didn''t you buy a diamond from this person? Do you trust him, but only for "information"? Maybe your local jeweler is biased against your purchase from a distant source? Maybe not. I sure don''t know, but you should consider these facts.

If you paid cash expecting to evade sales tax or import tax, then you have paid the price for deceit. Sometimes you get away with fooling the government but once it a while being tricky comes back to bite you. You can''t blame such a problem on anyone but yourself. The old adage about two wrongs don''t make a right is happening if such is the case.

You have a difficult dilemma, but if you have a choice to get a diamond you like better, I ''d suggest you try that option first and before you begin to threaten enyone. Big city guys tend to have the ability to get angry and simply say "get out" if they think you are just making empty threats. The cost of really doing anything in the legal system is going to far exceed what you spent for the diamond. They know this and you should, too. Make the very best of the deal and go on with the rest of everything else. Don''t make the same mistake in the future by dealing with well recognized firms, vendors and laboratories.

I feel for you, but my hard words of advice are what you probably need to hear.
 
Wow, I had no idea that this was going to go this far, I thank all of you for the wonderful advise and recommendations however this is what we have decided. You see where is was appraised here at home is not "our jeweller" per say, it is our appraiser, he does not sell or buy jewellery only appraises, so that answers your questions as to why we didnt buy from here, Dont get me wrong we have tons of crooks up here that we would not buy from.

Second once we notified this jeweller in NY of our findings and faxed him everything, I have to admit he has been more than helpful and admitted that they do sell CE diamonds and that it was his salesmans fault for not advising us of this. No we did not pay cash and no were not trying to avoid the "sales tax" these are all misconceptions. The documents we were provided dont say "fracture filled" so we had no idea. Anyways, I know all of you are going to thing we are crazy, but the jeweller told us to do our due dilligence and then contact him with what type of stone we want, cut, color etc, depth, table, crown height(as you can see I now have been studying) and send him a list of what we would want and with what certificates. We have done this and told him we do not want UGL, and from what I have read not GIA as they dont grade cut princess diamonds. We are then travelling to NY in November to view stones. He has told us that we can take it to any appraiser in NY to verify that the stone is exactly what he is selling us. He has actually been wonderful so how to you get mad or threaten as we have had no need to. I just now need to know exactly what to ask for and what not to ask for. I know several of you will think we are crazy for going back to them, but I guess its that damn "Canadian Mentality" in us, they have been great with us so far and doesnt everyone deserve a second chance. I must also admit, that we were caught up in the moment and should have done more studying on princess diamonds and diamonds period as we would have known what questions to ask, so a little little bit of the onus is one us.
 
Date: 9/24/2008 2:45:18 PM
Author: oldminer

If you paid cash expecting to evade sales tax or import tax, then you have paid the price for deceit. Sometimes you get away with fooling the government but once it a while being tricky comes back to bite you. You can't blame such a problem on anyone but yourself. The old adage about two wrongs don't make a right is happening if such is the case.

You have a difficult dilemma, but if you have a choice to get a diamond you like better, I 'd suggest you try that option first and before you begin to threaten enyone. Big city guys tend to have the ability to get angry and simply say 'get out' if they think you are just making empty threats. The cost of really doing anything in the legal system is going to far exceed what you spent for the diamond. They know this and you should, too. Make the very best of the deal and go on with the rest of everything else. Don't make the same mistake in the future by dealing with well recognized firms, vendors and laboratories.

I feel for you, but my hard words of advice are what you probably need to hear.
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Maybe I missed something in the replies which I admittedly scanned in haste, but this response comes off as harsh in the sense that is seems like you are saying that the purchaser of this diamond is somehow to blame for being in the predicament he/she is in. I have paid cash for diamonds purchased out of state and paid no sales tax. Is this deceitful? Better tell Good Old Gold and Blue Nile!

You also imply that the purchaser would be better off getting a better diamond rather than demanding a refund. Why? What do "big city guys" have to do with it? Even if the store had a no refund policy, this should be rendered null and void due to the misrepresentation of the item.

Again, please correct me if I missed something, because I really don't understand the tone of this response. And I am not trying to be a "net nanny". Hopefully, the OP has learned to seek out honest vendors for such a large purchase.
 
Jigme,

I haven''t seen a dollar amount listed...and I''m not sure on what basis you''re going to figure out what you deserve for what you paid anyway. With regard to your comments...


Date: 10/6/2008 6:10:13 PM
Author: jigmie
Anyways, I know all of you are going to thing we are crazy, but the jeweller told us to do our due dilligence and then contact him with what type of stone we want, cut, color etc, depth, table, crown height(as you can see I now have been studying) and send him a list of what we would want and with what certificates. We have done this and told him we do not want UGL, and from what I have read not GIA as they dont grade cut princess diamonds. We are then travelling to NY in November to view stones.
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...yes, we can more readily recommend you stick with AGS with 0 for light performance...but I can''t imagine you should either expect, nor get the other same parameters you got before, i.e. w carat, F VS1...but you can ask for it, I''m sure. Consider what after the AGS 0 is most important to you...between clarity, color & size. Then...see how well you can be optimized, I suppose. Also, consider putting yourself in the driver''s seat, don''t expect to get the world...but look at other comparables on this board, with similar characteristics, and similar dollar amount listed...and consider, on that basis, indicate to them what you DO expect.
 
Date: 9/22/2008 3:44:34 PM
Author:jigmie
Thank you to everyone for your help with a 2ct princess cut stone we purchased in NY and it was not disclosed to us until our jeweller here in Edmonton Canada advised us of this. Anyways all of your comments were great and yes the jeweller is now willing to take the stone back and exchange it for a ''non enhanced'' stone. He is telling us that we can get an UGL certified stone not enhanced without extra cost, this diamond is rated at ''F'' vs1 2.01ct. or we would have to pay more and get a IGI /AGS rated stone and would have to pay more. We have been reading furiously over the last few days and I am so confused. What is a good company to get the certification from and about just a ball park how much more will be we paying , can anyone help me with this, I am so confused, I have read so many articles regarding the 4 c''s and Diamond certification, we need to let them know and then I think we or just (me) going to fly down there for a few days to make sure the stone put in the ring is the one I pick.

thx everyone
33.gif
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Just curious, why wouldn''t you just fly to NY and get your money back? I have no idea who UGL is, but if you have to pay more to get an IGI cert then they must really be something. (I do NOT mean that in a good way.)

This jeweler basicly defrauded you, why are you still speaking with him?

Wink, whio is just really curious, not any of my business really.
 
Post deleted. Others already said it better.

Wink
 
I certainly agree with those who said to demand your money back!!! They cannot hold your money captive when they sold you something that was not as represented!!!

Settle for nothing less than a princess with an AGS 0 cert. Expect it to cost a LOT more than the one you bought unless you really go down in size. (You get what you pay for!) But as others have said, these people deceived you once, so don''t be surprised if you don''t get the best price for whatever you end up with. I''d never give this person my business.
 
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