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Choosing Emerald Diamond, CONFUSED, Please help me!

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justsomeguy

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 17, 2007
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Greetings,

Where to start. Here''s the background. For an engagement ring I''m pretty positive my girlfriend wants an emerald shape diamond in a full tension setting. Her eye is always drawn to that shape, and she likes the clean, simple, classic look. She really doesn''t like "sparkly" diamonds. However she doesn''t want an emerald shaped diamond that is glassy and looks "fake". So these aren''t the easiest of parameters (not to mention very few local jewelers carry the tension settings she likes), but I''m determined to get the perfect ring for her.

I''ve read nearly everything on this forum (and a lot of what little I could find elsewhere) about emerald and fancy shape diamonds. It has basically left me confused. There seems to be some basic agreement on the range of specs that weed out "bad" diamonds--it would be difficult to cut the diamond to perform well when out of these ranges, which makes sense to me, but then there are no agreed standards, "it depends on the diamond," "you have to see a fancy in person" (assuming you know what to look for), etc. And there''s tons of debate on other measurement tools like GemEx, etc.

So I''m working with a local, family-owned store that''s been around and seems to have a quite good reputation. They carry the tension setting. The problem is picking the diamond. They''ve shown me about 6, and had one of them called in after my first visit. I like two quite a bit better than the others, but I''m not sure if I''m being mislead about the quality and price. This jeweler uses GemEx and is adamant that it is the only way to really evaluate cut in fancies--that there are no standards for this shape, that it''s all about light return, that there are many different ways within a reasonable range of dimensions to cut the diamond well to get it to perform, that there''s no reason to believe a diamond with the spec range I''ve listed would perform any better, etc., etc.

So here''s the two candidates:

.91 ct
GIA
1.28-1
F/VS2
table= 73.6
depth= 71.6
crown height= unknown
girdle= thick
symmetry= good
polish= good
GemEx white= H
GemEx colored= H-VH
GemEx scint= VH+
$4,518

1.1 ct
GIA
1.29-1
D/VS1
table= 68
depth= 70.8
crown height= unknown
girdle= thin to slightly thick
symmetry= good
polish= very good
GemEx white= VH
GemEx colored= H-VH
GemEx scint= H-VH
$8,278
jeweler quote= "extremely rare--only see one this good every couple of years"

OK, so what I''m really wondering is if emerald shape diamonds with these measurements (from GIA report), which from what I''ve read hear are barely OK, could really be that well-cut and perform that well. Do I trust GemEx and my eyes (not that I really know how what I''m seeing matches up with what I''ve read), or do these specs indicate that these diamonds really couldn''t be that great? The other big question is price. Are these way overpriced, even for B&M? They seem to me to be around $1,000 over internet prices, but I would prefer to deal with a local jeweler I can get a fair B&M deal, especially with this tension setting. I''ve hinted about price, and I''ve walked twice to think about my options, but the jeweler hasn''t even hinted that price is negotiable (the setting is about $2,200, btw). Should I be able to negotiate a better price? What do you think is fair for B&M for these?

Please help! Thanks!!
 
hello! as a fellow emerald lover, i think you could do much better. the tables on both (especially the first) are pretty big, which is what makes an emerald look glassy or fake - which is what your gf specifically said she didn''t like. they are also going to face up smaller than they should because of their depth and i would also be leery of going below "very good" for symmetry. it''s not to say that they aren''t pretty stones, but chances are very very slim that they are going to perform like they could or should. emeralds are tough! on top of that, they are both overpriced, especially the second one.

i understand you wanting to deal with a B&M store instead of an online vendor, but just be prepared to pay significantly more and accept that you might not have the selection or quality that you might desire. have you considered buying the stone online and getting the setting through your jeweler?
 
The jeweler may not have the best selection of diamonds to choose from..what part of the country are you in? He also seems to be charging a high premium on the diamonds. Just because it''s rare in his practice, doesn''t mean it''s "rare" everywhere or online.

As Mimzy said, the tables on these diamonds are VERY large (the table is the flat face part of the diamond). When the table is really big it gives a glassy, dead look.

However, I have noticed that some men tend to LIKE the glassy look. It looks very "clean" to them. As a result, when faced with picking, they tend to go for the big tables.

This is why we emphasize on here that you need to actually look at the diamond, or pictures of light return, if you want a fancy shape. We can tell you all we want about the proprotions that an emerald "should" have for maximum light return, this won''t change the fact that you may be drawn to the large table everytime.

Also, i would ask the jeweler if he has an idealscope. You want there to be contrasting red and black rectangular rings. White is bad and means light is leaking out the bottom.

Also make sure you look at the diamonds in NATURAL light, not just in the jewelery store light.

NOTE: Asking the jeweler to sort the diamonds by table size isn''t really going to help. Light return is determined by a few main things: Table, Depth, and Crown height (which i note your jewler doesn''t provide). So if you get a small table diamond, but the depth and crown height is out of wack, it''s not going to look attractive.
 
Hi mimzy. Thanks for the quick response! I have considered buying the stone online and getting the setting through this local jeweler. I''m pretty sure they would do that. I''ve also been thinking of bringing it up to them to see if it motivates them regarding working with me on price, especially for the second stone.

I have the exact same concerns as you, especially regarding table, depth, and symmetry. I''ve talked to the jeweler about this, and indicated that I think it''s best to stay in the table under 65, depth under 66, at least very good symmetry range, with depth being higher than table (I also want to stay F, VS2 or higher), and that I''m surprised these diamonds can perform so well in GemEx with these specifications. But he insists that diamonds in the ranges I''m talking about won''t necessarily perform better than these, and in fact very few emerald diamonds I will find anywhere will perform better than these. So what do I say to that?

To further complicate this, I''m not sure that the absolute best cut and performance would be best in this case. My girlfriend doesn''t want glassy and fake, but she also really doesn''t want sparkely and flashy. She wants "something in-between". I''m not sure an emerald shape diamond by definition could be too flashy for her, but I am concerned that if it doesn''t maintain some of the clean, clear, simple, classic emerald qualities she won''t like it as much. Also, part of me does think that the depth and facing up smaller could be a good thing here, as the overall length, width, and depth are fairly important for the ring to look right as it''s a full tension set, with side diamonds, and the center emerald diamond will be set lengthwise, flush.

I''m think I''m going to go crazy! Any other advice would be greatly appreciated.
 
Both stones are very deep (over 70%) so it is going to look smaller than is expected for its carat weight. Try to stay under 68% depth. I also prefer the table to be a wee bit smaller than the depth, unless the crown height is fantastic. The smaller the table, the more I like it. Under 65% is my sweet spot.

You can see the crown height for yourself. Compare the top half (above the girdle) to the lower half (below the girdle). The the crown area is quite tall, you are pretty safe. If it is rather flat, it's time to keep looking.

For ECs, the step pattern means a lot, so I aim for at least VG on both polish and symmetry.

Gemex is a nice tool but not the be all end all. It only observes how the diamond performs in strong direct light. It does not "capture" how the EC does in indirect light or low lighting or any other scenario. An idealscope (checks light leakage)or ASET (checks light performance) would be a better tool.

As for pricing, it is a little more compared to online vendors, but then again, B&M stores do have higher overhead.
 
gemex does not work well at all for picking emerald and asscher cuts.
One of the PS vendors started picking much better ones when they stopped using it for them.
Both are on the deep side which depending on price may be an issue.
by the crown numbers id prefere the second one but the girdle rating bugs me.
both need to be seen by an expert to see if there is an issue with the g/g rating and the girdle on the second.
 
Thanks for the advice peridot. I am in Minneapolis. This jeweler seems to have one of the biggest selections of fancy cuts in the area, but I can do some more research. There''s also a couple of diamond brokers in town who get good reviews, so I should probably shop around some more.

You''ve sort of summarized my dilemma. You state that these tables are very large, and I think you''re agreeing that the overall specs aren''t great, but you also state that light return is most important and hard to determine from specs--and the jeweler''s GemEx reports indicate that these are light-return top performers, especially for emerald shape. I think they look nice, and I have looked at them in natural light too, but I really don''t know what to look for, other than that I like these better than others I have seen. I''m so confused?!?!
 
A well cut EC will not look glassy and fake. In fact, to avoid that look, it is best to make sure the depth and table % are in the ideal range (with the right crown height). The sparkle and flash will definitely be more subdued compared to a round. It will still be clear and very classy looking.

The fact that you are going with a tension setting tells me that the crown height and step pattern is even more important. A high crown height seen from the side is a beauty to behold.

Why buy a deep diamond (pay lots of extra $) only to get one that looks smaller than it should? If you want it to face up small, save some money and a smaller one that faces up correctly for its carat weight.
3.gif
 
Wow--thanks for all the great responses!!

I''m really new to buying expensive jewelery and diamonds. So do I just state my concerns to the jeweler and ask to take/send the diamond to an independent appraiser? Is this a standard and acceptable thing to do? If so I think I''ll do this on the second diamond, see if the jeweler will bring in anything else, and start shopping around some more.
 
I think Strmrdr hit the right point (and has tons of expertise on Emeralds and Asschers). Light return is the most important. However, light return is best evaluated with your eyes in natural light, or with an Idealscope or ASET image.

The Gemex reports may be leading you astray, since they work best for round cuts. However, your jeweler may disagree....

Also, Emerald cuts aren't very sparkly,they don't shine 1/2 as much as a round brilliant, so I doubt you'll find one that is overly sparkly for your GF taste, though everyone is different. They tend to glisten...and then flash light off the crown when you tilt 'em.

EDIT: If you dont' trust your own eyes, get an appraisal from someone who can do an Idealscope or ASET evaluation for you. An Idealscope image is easy to evaluate with your own eyes, again white is bad, black and red contrasting rings good!

ASET is the most accurate but I always have trouble evaluating the pictures =P

 
Do you know which tension settings the jeweler carries? There are only a couple of GOOD tension setting companies.
 
Hi Nicki,

I think she''s pretty decided on GelinAbaci (I like their tension settings too), which this jeweler carries (I think only one of three dealers in our metro area). I think the specific setting will be GelinAbaci style TR-145 (white gold), if you''re interested. I think GelinAbaci is one of the good tension setting companies, correct?
 
After doing some shopping around I found a local jeweler who handles the setting and seems very interested in working with me to make sure I get what I want. They are calling in three stones for me:

1.02 ct
GIA
E
VS1
table= 61
depth= 64
crown height= unknown
girdle= medium
symmetry= good
polish= very good
$5,200

1.17 ct
GIA
G
VS1
table= 65
depth= 68
crown height= unknown
girdle= medium
symmetry= very good
polish= good
$7,000

.99 ct
GIA
F
VS2
table= 63
depth= 65
crown height= unknown
girdle= medium
symmetry= very good
polish= good
$4,990

I''m pretty encouraged by all three choices, but especially the third. The jeweler forgot to write down the length/width ratios but said they are in the 1.25-1.35 range I requested, and so should work in this setting without changing the proportions enough to be noticeable (I hope). The big x factor is crown height. This wasn''t available from the GIA or their source, so the jeweler didn''t know. I should be able to tell myself now if there''s some or little crown height, but how can I find out what it is for sure? Should the jeweler be able to measure this? I should get a look at these by the end of the week. This jeweler was the exact opposite of the first that swore by GemEx only. They only go by GIA, AGS, and eye, and don''t do Idealscope, ASET, or GemEx. So I''m quite on my own here and would appreciate any additional advice on how to evaluate these stones (or get them evaluated).
 
Date: 8/17/2007 6:59:20 PM
Author: justsomeguy
Hi Nicki,

I think she''s pretty decided on GelinAbaci (I like their tension settings too), which this jeweler carries (I think only one of three dealers in our metro area). I think the specific setting will be GelinAbaci style TR-145 (white gold), if you''re interested. I think GelinAbaci is one of the good tension setting companies, correct?
Click to expand...
Yep! That''s very good news! You''ll be fine with a GelinAbaci setting. That''s a gorgeous setting, BTW.
 
no tool EC eval is pretty easy.
compare patterns and view in as many light conditions as possible.
estimating crown height is something any GG should be able to do even without a sarin scanner but if they have a scanner its better.
Look at it strait from the side and a proper crown looks high.
From the side do the steps on the crown stand out? Then likely its fairly high, do they looked scrunched together then its likely low.
 
First, thanks to you all for taking the time to respond and try to help me. I really do appreciate it. I just spoke with my first jeweler, who swears by GemEx, and stated my concerns that I think I could do better than the two diamonds he presented, especially for the price. Basically he stated that all my research and what you are telling me here is just confusing and misleading me.

To my concerns about his diamonds, his replies are:

Table and depth larger than I would like: no standards or way to determine if this is good or bad, only way to judge this is light return via GemEx

GIA rating for symmetry only "good" concerning--I would like at least "very good": GIA ratings for polish and symmetry are only a subjective adjective used by the appraiser, this doesn''t really mean anything

Uneven girdle concerning: all diamonds have uneven girdles, again what is on the GIA report is only words and can be misleading

You haven''t been able to provide me with crown heights, but they look fairly low/flat: again, no standards, GemEx the only way to judge

Can I get an Idealscope evaluation: We have one in our lab and we can use it to evaluate the diamond if you want, but it''s unscientific and doesn''t really tell you much--that''s why we prefer to use GemEx

I''m not sold on GemEx, it''s good information but other sources question if it should be the main factor in deciding the quality of a EC diamonds cut: GemEx is the only true measure of quality of cut for any diamond, based on light performance. We are a true ''diamond lab'' and have the expertise and experience to really know how to evaluate diamonds to choose the most beautiful.

I really don''t want to offend him or anyone here. But I really don''t know what/who to believe. My current plan is to not make any purchases until I at least see a few EC''s that fall within the specifications you''ve all recommended here and I''ve read elsewhere such as gemappraisers.com (I haven''t seen even one in person yet)--so at least I can compare for myself.

I just thought you all might be interested in a part owner of a gem lab''s responses to what you all are telling me here.
 
I''m completely depressed and sick of this. So I just got off the phone with the second jeweler, who called to let me know the three stones are in for me to look at. An employee at his store took my specifications and found the stones, and he''s just become involved now that they''re in. So he called me and he immediately launches into how he knows I had these specifications in mind (F, VS2, Table12, even girdle not too thin or thick, very good to excellent symmetry and polish, somewhere around 1 ct and 1.25-1.35 to 1 ratio to fit this specific tension set without too much modification), and he''s not sure where I got them, but that in his ''whatever-whatever-certified-gemologist-whatever'' opinion these aren''t very nice-looking EC''s--they''re too square, they''re GIA certified but the cut isn''t that great, etc.

I tried to get him to clarify whether we''re in the right ranges but it''s just that these three stones aren''t winners, or if he disagrees with what I should be looking for, and if so what are his reasons--why are these not ''the greatest cuts''. But he really didn''t give me any specific answers. He thinks I should come in and look at the stones and we can talk about step cuts versus other types. I don''t know if he personally just doesn''t like EC''s or squarish EC''s or what. I suppose I should go in and look at these and hear what he has to say, if for no other reason than to get some more experience. But right now I''ve just about had it.
 
Date: 8/23/2007 3:22:15 PM
Author: justsomeguy
I''m completely depressed and sick of this. So I just got off the phone with the second jeweler, who called to let me know the three stones are in for me to look at. An employee at his store took my specifications and found the stones, and he''s just become involved now that they''re in. So he called me and he immediately launches into how he knows I had these specifications in mind (F, VS2, Table12, even girdle not too thin or thick, very good to excellent symmetry and polish, somewhere around 1 ct and 1.25-1.35 to 1 ratio to fit this specific tension set without too much modification), and he''s not sure where I got them, but that in his ''whatever-whatever-certified-gemologist-whatever'' opinion these aren''t very nice-looking EC''s--they''re too square, they''re GIA certified but the cut isn''t that great, etc.


I tried to get him to clarify whether we''re in the right ranges but it''s just that these three stones aren''t winners, or if he disagrees with what I should be looking for, and if so what are his reasons--why are these not ''the greatest cuts''. But he really didn''t give me any specific answers. He thinks I should come in and look at the stones and we can talk about step cuts versus other types. I don''t know if he personally just doesn''t like EC''s or squarish EC''s or what. I suppose I should go in and look at these and hear what he has to say, if for no other reason than to get some more experience. But right now I''ve just about had it.
Click to expand...
i''m sorry to hear you''re so frustrated
7.gif


but don''t get discouraged and don''t let the jeweler talk you out of an EC because it is harder for him to find a good looking one. he might just be put off because you were so specific in what you were looking for (some jewelers seem to appreciate informed customers, others not so much).

it is possible that even though all the specs were right it still might not be the greatest looking stones (as step cuts are a lot harder to judge just by numbers), but that doesn''t mean you shouldn''t keep looking for a stone with those specs. on the same note, it is possible for an EC to have less than stellar specs but be beautiful in person. it is always advantageous to be working with a vendor that will give you an honest opinion about how a stone looks, but don''t let him put you off. it''s taken my bf at least four months to find an EC that he was happy with (i hope he''s found one by now..), but i know it will pay off. it''s worth the extra effort to get the fabulous-ness of a well cut EC! good luck!
 
Date: 8/23/2007 3:22:15 PM
Author: justsomeguy
I''m completely depressed and sick of this. So I just got off the phone with the second jeweler, who called to let me know the three stones are in for me to look at. An employee at his store took my specifications and found the stones, and he''s just become involved now that they''re in. So he called me and he immediately launches into how he knows I had these specifications in mind (F, VS2, Table12, even girdle not too thin or thick, very good to excellent symmetry and polish, somewhere around 1 ct and 1.25-1.35 to 1 ratio to fit this specific tension set without too much modification), and he''s not sure where I got them, but that in his ''whatever-whatever-certified-gemologist-whatever'' opinion these aren''t very nice-looking EC''s--they''re too square, they''re GIA certified but the cut isn''t that great, etc.

I tried to get him to clarify whether we''re in the right ranges but it''s just that these three stones aren''t winners, or if he disagrees with what I should be looking for, and if so what are his reasons--why are these not ''the greatest cuts''. But he really didn''t give me any specific answers. He thinks I should come in and look at the stones and we can talk about step cuts versus other types. I don''t know if he personally just doesn''t like EC''s or squarish EC''s or what. I suppose I should go in and look at these and hear what he has to say, if for no other reason than to get some more experience. But right now I''ve just about had it.
Click to expand...
ugh another real winner of a Jeweler.. not...
Go see those and if none of em make your heart sing do yourself a favor and call Good Old Gold www.goodoldgold.com on Tuesday and ask for Jonathon and buy online.(thats what I did for my diamond)
When they get some in for you and get pictures post them here and we will help.
He will even make you a video too help you pick one of them he brings in.
 
Thanks for letting me vent--the good news is that I think this all might work out. It seems as though I just had a misunderstanding with this second jeweler. Apparently the person who I talked to in his shop originally didn''t fill him in (and/or he didn''t ask) about all the details such as my girlfriend being pretty sure about the EC and the tension setting, and also had called in a square EC for me to look at for comparison to what I asked for. He had only looked at the square EC when he called me, and he didn''t think it was that nice, and he thought I should also look at Asschers, Princess, etc. if I wanted a square stone. After looking at the other two ECs they called in for me and talking in person he says that those two are well-cut ECs, and he especially likes one. At least that''s what he says--it was just his opinion about square ECs and that one in particular. I think I believe him, and he seems sincere about trying to get me the best EC. But I''m still a bit cautious about doing business with him--maybe I''m too trusting and he''s just backpedaling to make a sale....

Anyway, I think I really like one of the EC''s he called in. It''s right in the ranges I asked for, and I think it''s quite pretty (the problem is that I''m really only concerned about how pretty she thinks it is....). Here''s the stats and some questions I have.

EC #1
GIA
.99ct
1.30-1
F
VS1
Table= 63
Depth= 65.2
Crown Height= uncertain--looks pretty good to me, and he thinks the source said at least 11%--I''m having him check on this and see what doc they might have on this.
Girdle= Medium to Slightly Thick
Symmetry= Very Good
Polish= Good
Cutlet= None
Feather shown in diagram from bottom.
Extra facet in corner shown in diagram from bottom.
Comments= An additional extra facet is not shown.
Price= $5,000

One concern is the crown height. But if I understand how this is calculated for ECs (crown height mm/overall width mm--you''d think the formula would be easy to find, but alas), then that means the difference between an average crown height of 9% and a great crown height of %15 is only about .25 mm? So I''m not sure how I could really evaluate this without a Sarin Report. My eyes tell me the crown is at least .5 mm high+, so I think this is probably OK if he doesn''t get a definitive answer on the crown height.

I was also a little concerned about the extra facets as I''d never heard of this, but from researching and talking to the jeweler this seems like it should be (and was) a non-issue as far as the diamond''s grading, performance, and worth. Is this correct?

I think the price seems pretty fair. We haven''t haggled at all, but from searching a bit on BlueNile, etc. this seems like an OK price. The jeweler mentioned it was a good price at over 40% off list. Should this price raise any red flags--too high or too low (for some reason I''m actually concerned about this price being a bit too low)?

I can also afford either 18kt or 14kt white gold for the tension setting. GelinAbaci says no difference between the two in build quality and security of the stone. I''m thinking 18kt white gold--my only concern is the weight of the ring and durability. Any thoughts?

Many thanks for all your help.
 
I saw the stone again, and the jeweler and source don''t know the crown height. Why doesn''t GIA provide this? Anyway, again if I understand the formula correctly, the difference between an average and great crown height on this stone would be less than .2 mm extra in height from girdle to table from the side. So I''m really not sure how anyone could really "see" anything other than some or no crown height. Maybe I still don''t get how this should be so easy to see, or maybe all the EC''s I''ve seen just have bad crown heights so I don''t know what a good one looks like.

I still like this stone. We looked at the feather and extra facets and it was hard to see them until we got to 30-40x magnification. So I don''t think they''re an issue. I''ve asked the jeweler to contact GelinAbaci and see if/how this stone will work for the setting, and what modifications will need to be made, and to get a quote for the setting.

So I''m pretty close to buying this, but I still have reservations that I''m not getting the best EC I could for my money. Is it totally inappropriate for me to ask the jeweler if I can get this stone appraised by an independent appraiser for a second opinion (I''ll pay for it of course). Is this something that people do? Will I need to buy the stone first? Is this really necessary since it already has a GIA cert? My general thought is that I''ll need an appraisal of the ring anyway, so why not establish a relationship with an independent appraiser and pay for an extra appraisal of just the stone for some piece of mind.
 
How does the fire look in sunlight?
If its fiery the crown height should be ok.
 
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