Choosing Between Hearts & Arrows Cut or Ideal Cut

[holycow]

Can anyone explain the difference between an ideal cut diamond and a H&A cut diamond. Is there much of a difference in sparkle and brilliance? Are you paying more for the appearance under the scope with an H&A or is it that much better to the naked eye? I am trying to decide between the two cuts.

 

[NewGuy12]

Not that I am an expert on diamonds but a simple way of understanding the difference is that H&A cuts are a subset of ideal cuts.

In other words, all H&A cuts are Ideal, but not all Ideal cuts are H&A. You will notice that all H&A cuts have ideal grading from whichever agency that graded them (GIA, AGS, etc). H&A ideal diamonds will outperform non-H&A ideal diamonds; but thats not to say that non-H&A ideal diamonds are bad - its relative.

 

[Chase035]

Date: 2/27/2010 7:47:59 PM
Author: NewGuy12
Not that I am an expert on diamonds but a simple way of understanding the difference is that H&A cuts are a subset of ideal cuts.

In other words, all H&A cuts are Ideal, but not all Ideal cuts are H&A. You will notice that all H&A cuts have ideal grading from whichever agency that graded them (GIA, AGS, etc). H&A ideal diamonds will outperform non-H&A ideal diamonds; but thats not to say that non-H&A ideal diamonds are bad - its relative.

It''s my understanding that this is usually true, but not necessarily. Couldn''t their still be painting or digging that would allow an Ideal to have more brilliance than the H&A.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 2/27/2010 7:47:59 PM
Author: NewGuy12
Not that I am an expert on diamonds but a simple way of understanding the difference is that H&A cuts are a subset of ideal cuts.

In other words, all H&A cuts are Ideal, but not all Ideal cuts are H&A. You will notice that all H&A cuts have ideal grading from whichever agency that graded them (GIA, AGS, etc). H&A ideal diamonds will outperform non-H&A ideal diamonds; but thats not to say that non-H&A ideal diamonds are bad - its relative.

Nope! Diamond performance has to do with the angles of the cut (crown, pavilion etc), wheras H&A has to do with the symmetry of the cut. In the end, wanting an H&A is a matter of personaly taste, people may like knowing that their diamond was carefully creafted to the utmost perfection. But in the end, H&A status does not guarantee a great performing diamond, nor does it mean that the diamond will outperform a non H&A.

So unless you like the idea of an H&A, and many of us do -- I like branded H&As because they have been carefully scrutinized by many experts -- then you can save some money buying a non H&A EX/Ideal cut grade diamond that will still be a sparkle monster.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 2/28/2010 1:34:32 AM
Author: dreamer_dachsie

Date: 2/27/2010 7:47:59 PM
Author: NewGuy12
Not that I am an expert on diamonds but a simple way of understanding the difference is that H&A cuts are a subset of ideal cuts.

In other words, all H&A cuts are Ideal, but not all Ideal cuts are H&A. You will notice that all H&A cuts have ideal grading from whichever agency that graded them (GIA, AGS, etc). H&A ideal diamonds will outperform non-H&A ideal diamonds; but thats not to say that non-H&A ideal diamonds are bad - its relative.

Nope! Diamond performance has to do with the angles of the cut (crown, pavilion etc), wheras H&A has to do with the symmetry of the cut. In the end, wanting an H&A is a matter of personaly taste, people may like knowing that their diamond was carefully creafted to the utmost perfection. But in the end, H&A status does not guarantee a great performing diamond, nor does it mean that the diamond will outperform a non H&A.

So unless you like the idea of an H&A, and many of us do -- I like branded H&As because they have been carefully scrutinized by many experts -- then you can save some money buying a non H&A EX/Ideal cut grade diamond that will still be a sparkle monster.

Ditto Dreamer, h&a is to do with overall cutting precision which is responsible for the crisp h&a patterning which can be seen on these types of diamonds.

This article on h&a will be helpful from the Pricescope Tutorial

http://journal.pricescope.com/Articles/65/1/Hearts-and-Arrows-Diamonds-and-The-Basics-of-Diamond-Cutting.aspx

And this precision tutorial will be useful too.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 2/27/2010 7:47:59 PM
Author: NewGuy12
Not that I am an expert on diamonds but a simple way of understanding the difference is that H&A cuts are a subset of ideal cuts.

In other words, all H&A cuts are Ideal, but not all Ideal cuts are H&A. You will notice that all H&A cuts have ideal grading from whichever agency that graded them (GIA, AGS, etc). H&A ideal diamonds will outperform non-H&A ideal diamonds; but thats not to say that non-H&A ideal diamonds are bad - its relative.

Hi NewGuy12, welcome to Pricescope.

You got half of this statement correct, "not all Ideal cuts are H&A". Unfortunately you have repeated a commonly held fallacy with the part about all H&A cuts are Ideal.

I once had a very pretty diamond that was probably an AGS 3 or 4 cut grade that was also H&A. I actually bought it because it was so far from Ideal yet had a perfect H&A pattern under the viewer. The cutter had done it as a joke/challange, just because he thought he could and he was correct. I have also seen a lot of AGS 1 (excellent but not Ideal) cut diamonds with perfect H&A patterns that are not AGS0 (Ideal) cut grades due to minor deficiencies in polish or physical symmetry such as meet points while still maintaining perfect optical symmetry.

The H&A cutting does tend to produce larger virtual facets, which produces both larger flashes of scintillation and dispersion, and more visual scintillation events overall. Diamonds without the H&A symmetry tend to produce smaller flashes of visible scintillation events, but also fewer visible scintillation events.

[/url] and watch the third video on the page you will hear more about virtual facets and see an incredibly beautiful picture of a diamond taken by the great Jim Caudill.

I wish it were as simple as you have stated, ie that H&A were a subset of Ideal, it would sure make things easier. It is actually so incredibly much more complex than that. I have spent years of my life studiing diamond cutting and I do not begin to have the comprehension of it that I would like. At age 63 I am beginning to understand just how much I do not understand, but I will tell you this I do know, I really like the look of an Ideally cut diamond, at least most of the time. Some still manage a way not to look as good as they could/should, and that is just one more complex issue to untangle...

Welcome to our world, please stay and learn with us!

Wink

 

[elle_chris]

I own both and can't see a difference between my true H&A's and my plain old ideal cut stones (both AGS0). That doesn't mean that I'd pick any old ideal cut. The idealscope and aset images along with the numbers all play a role when I'm choosing.
But hey, I'm just a consumer.

This link might be useful. It's an interesting debate between experts, on how much of a role perfect symmetry plays when you're looking at top cuts. https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/h-a-performance.127349/

eta: I linked the third page of the thread. fixed.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Date: 2/28/2010 12:28:20 PM
Author: elle_chris
I own both and can''t see a difference between my true H&A''s and my plain old ideal cut stones (both AGS0). That doesn''t mean that I''d pick any old ideal cut. The idealscope and aset images along with the numbers all play a role when I''m choosing.

Same. . . I cannot tell the difference between my ideal cut and H&A stones.

 

[FB.]

Generally speaking, on it''s own, "ideal" is a better indicator of a good diamond than "H&A".
But not many cutters would bother with perfect H&A unless the stone was well-proportioned.
Therefore, most H&A tend to be Ideal cut.
But not many ideal cut are H&A.

An average person is far more likely to appreciate the difference between an ideal cut and a very good cut than the difference between a H&A and very good symmetry.