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Certification (GIA, AGS, EGL) vs No Certification

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aub

Rough_Rock
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May 19, 2009
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Hi All,

I''ve been looking online for the most part and recently I started working with a diamond dealer who I know through a friend. She started of showing me diamonds that are certified and then she brought stones that were not certified. The non-certified had the basic C''s covered and look comparable to me as a non-expert.

Online I have looked at all the dimensions and used the HCA to determine the quality of the cut. Shopping with a dealer I have to eye-ball what I like or dislike without quantitative measures. The price difference is pretty significant ~30%.

Is it wise to consider non-cert diamonds? Can the experts point out the pros and cons or a better way to shop for non-cert diamonds?
 
Date: 6/9/2009 11:23:12 AM
Author:aub
Hi All,

I''ve been looking online for the most part and recently I started working with a diamond dealer who I know through a friend. She started of showing me diamonds that are certified and then she brought stones that were not certified. The non-certified had the basic C''s covered and look comparable to me as a non-expert.

Online I have looked at all the dimensions and used the HCA to determine the quality of the cut. Shopping with a dealer I have to eye-ball what I like or dislike without quantitative measures. The price difference is pretty significant ~30%.

Is it wise to consider non-cert diamonds? Can the experts point out the pros and cons or a better way to shop for non-cert diamonds?
Click to expand...
I would only consider shopping for an ungraded diamond if it was from a trusted vendor and I could get an independant appraisal done on the diamond during the return period to make sure it checked out. If you are careful as above then it can be done but always compare a diamond to one similar with a lab report ( GIA/ AGS) for price if you are considering it to make sure it really is a deal.

Also it is important to remember should you ever want to try or resell such a diamond, it is difficult enough even with a GIA report, without it is extremely difficult.
 
Here it is in a nutshell.

Diamonds are, for the most part, priced based on the famous 4 C’s of carat weight, color, clarity and cut. Minor differences in these can make for big differences in the price. Since very few people have much in the way of experience at grading stones, shoppers are in the position of relying on experts for assistance. They tell you which one is ‘better’ ‘ and why, and you get to decide if you believe them and if you are convinced that this is sufficient reason to pay the extra price. What this all means is that it’s terribly important to understand in whom you are placing your trust.

The first level of trust is with the jeweler. That’s who’s telling you what it is, that’s who’s telling you what lab you should believe and that’s who’s getting your money if you decide to buy. If your confidence level here is zero than you should be shopping elsewhere regardless of what they tell you and if your confidence level here is 100% than you need go no further in terms of advice from labs, appraisers or anyone else. Most fall somewhere in between these two extremes.

Personally, I would not recommend buying a stone without a lab grading that costs over $2500 or so. The grading just becomes too important an issue. I further would not recommend relying on any lab other than AGSL or GIA, especially if the lab was chosen by someone other than you (ie the seller). If the jeweler is offering you a stone without lab papers, or papers from a lab you don’t count as reliable, make this simple offer: Show it to your appraiser, your mother, your astrologer and anyone else whose opinion you value and decide if it’s otherwise going to be acceptable if it grades out right. If so, have them send it to GIA or AGSL for proper grading and documentation. If it matches or exceeds the specs they’ve provided you’ll buy the stone as well as pay for the GIA fees and the related shipping. If it doesn’t match, they pay the fees and the deals off. What could be more fair?


Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 
Date: 6/9/2009 11:41:11 AM
Author: denverappraiser
If the jeweler is offering you a stone without lab papers, or papers from a lab you don’t count as reliable, make this simple offer: Show it to your appraiser, your mother, your astrologer and anyone else whose opinion you value and decide if it’s otherwise going to be acceptable if it grades out right. If so, have them send it to GIA or AGSL for proper grading and documentation. If it matches or exceeds the specs they’ve provided you’ll buy the stone as well as pay for the GIA fees and the related shipping. If it doesn’t match, they pay the fees and the deals off. What could be more fair?
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"Show it to your Astrologer" I freaking love it... Wait, that gives me an idea!

Announcing "Astrological Gem Labs" our slogan... "Gemology By The Numbers" a 4th Tier Laboratory. Ha! Thanks for the mental chuckle Neil!

Okay, to the question at hand. Aub, it is important to understand that as much as 60% of the market value of a diamond can be affected by the cut quality, i.e. proportions, polish, symmetry, optical symmetry, visual performance; and these factors can not be determined by "eye balling" the stone! Especially not by the average consumer! There are SO many games (read treatments) possible with a diamond that I think a person is NUTS to consider buying anything larger than half a carat without a diamond grading report from either the American Gem Society (AGS) Laboratory or the GIA Laboratory and personally I wouldn't accept paper from any other U.S. Laboratory. A lab report is a bare minimum in my opinion, personally I would also insist on a detailed facet-by-facet computerized proportions analysis; an ASET image; an Ideal Scope image; a Gems Fantasy Scope image; and detailed clarity photographs whether I was purchasing the diamond online or in a traditional brick and mortar jewelry store and if the vendor was unable to provide me with this type of information I'd ask whether they were actually in the modern jewelry trade or simply dabbling at a hobby level because this type of information is considered to be "standards of the trade" by most top level diamond dealers.

If you're going to shop for non-lab-graded diamonds, I would suggest learning how to identify signs of laser drilling, fracture filling, irradiation - yes, I did say "irradiation"
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and for what? To save the few dollars that verification by a respected, reliable, independent gemological laboratory costs? It's chump change. The only reason that I can think of for a modern jeweler not to sell diamonds which have been lab graded by the GIA or AGS is because they are trying to pull a fast one on an unsuspecting consumer. The fact that your friend is showing you diamonds which she states as being "certified" is already a sign that she might not know what she is talking about, flip the lab report over and you'll find a statement which very clearly states that the lab does not "certify" anything, they simply indicate the characteristics of the diamond at the time they evaluated the diamond... Lab reports are not a "certification" and while this is not something that you would know as a consumer, it is definitely something that anybody in the trade should KNOW and drop from their vocabulary because use of the term "certificate" in reference to a "lab report" is misleading (and obviously a pet peeve of mine so forgive the rant).
 
Thanks for the response.

The person I am working with is actually a dealer. They have a high turnover selling to retailers and the reason I was offered for no reports on some is due to the amount of time GIA or AGS take. She mentioned GIA takes about 4 weeks and AGS about 2 to report results which has a negative impact on their inventory. Does the time period sound correct?

I agree with Lorelei that buying a diamond without an appraisal, regardless of a report would not be smart shopping. But prior to sending one for appraisal I need to better understand how to pick winners.

I did place several round diamonds next to each other. Some had GIA reports and others had "internal" reports. From what I could tell the grading seemed similar. The colors seemed comparable, the clarity also seemed correct (SI2s had visible feathers and SI1s with magnification). For the cut I had the depth, table, l/w (no crown or pavilion info)which I''m not too comfortable analyzing. Are there ranges available for GIA ideal cut?

I guess at the end of the day it depends how a woman likes her ring over the years. Does she examine others'' diamonds for flaws and feel better about her own ;)? Does she love the brilliance of her diamond by itself or does she take comfort in the grading report? I don''t have a favorite astrologer or know a woman well who has had a diamond for 20 years, I pose these questions to you.

By the way I am looking for 1.6 F-H, VS2-SI1 and the price difference is about 2-3 Gs.

 
Here’s GIA’s quoted turnaround times.

http://www.gia.edu/lab-reports-services/turnaround-time/index.html

Assuming that you aren’t in Carlsbad or NYC you will also need to include shipping time but you’re still looking at about 2 weeks to have a stone graded by them.

If a dealer can increase his/her selling prices by 10% - 20% by waiting 2 weeks (or 4 weeks for that matter) and paying a $150 in fees they would be foolish not to do it. I’m confident that they aren’t fools so something else is going on. I have a different theory. They already know what GIA would grade it and they think they can sell it for more without the pedigree.

[soapbox on]
By the way, there’s a word for dealers who are selling things out one door to retailers and out the other door to consumers. They’re called retailers. Even if it’s true that they’ve got more dealer business than they can keep up with, which is extremely unlikely in the current market, it has nothing to do with your situation and the fact that they included this in their sales pitch to you does not bode well for the reliability of the dealer. You can bet that these retailers wouldn’t appreciate their supplier competing directly against them and would take their business elsewhere if they found out about it so they must be either lying to the retailers who are supposedly keeping them buried in money or are lying to you. You can decide which of those seems more likely but I wouldn’t count either one of them as a good sign.
[soapbox off]

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 
Grading by a reputable lab let's you know you are getting what you think you are getting.

That, so called, 30% discount is meaningless if you are not sure it is for the same thing.

Lab grading is only a couple hundred bucks.
Why would any seller throw away that 30%?
That can only mean the stones are not what the seller says they are.
 
I should clarify, the difference I mentioned was between the stones that she showed me and the ones I saw online, online being graded by GIA, AGS and higher.
 
As mentioned, the price is based on weight, clarity, color and cutting. 3 out of 4 of these you are being asked to rely entirely on the word of someone who you already have reason to believe might be misleading you. I count two strikes so far (the wholesale/retail thing and the explanation about why no GIA documentation). If it’s really correct that they’re 30% cheaper than comparable items here then the price is itself a red flag. You’re wise to hire an independent expert of your own and make the deal contingent upon their approval. There''s more to this story and although it''s possible that it''s simply a fantastic deal, there are other options and the difference is important.

It’s easy to find pricing comps online that don’t have AGS/GIA paperwork. Fill out the ‘pricescope your diamond’ box at the top of the page. You can sort the results page by clicking on the column headers. You can''t sort by lab but you can sort by price. There''s no stones listed here without some sort of lab paperwork but you can look at stones graded by alternative labs for comps.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 
Have you seen the thread that features Video Taped Interviews with Peter Yantzer the Executive Director of the AGS Laboratory? The one pertaining to consumer pricing is priceless and provides rare insight into how diamond grading affects diamond prices...

The term "Buyer Beware" and the phrase "A fool and his money are soon parted" were made for the diamond industry in my opinion... Buying a diamond of any substance without a GIA or AGS lab report is insane on a consumer level. And you're buying a 1.60 something, man there's a lot of room for error in that equation. I'd insist on a lab report. What's a week or two at AGS compared to a few grand of "I woulda, shoulda, coulda!"

Wholesale to the Public... Run your comps here on PS, in our industry it's the "friend deals" that will get you. Maybe I'm wrong, but usually I'm right.
 
Date: 6/9/2009 4:26:01 PM
Author: aub
I should clarify, the difference I mentioned was between the stones that she showed me and the ones I saw online, online being graded by GIA, AGS and higher.
Click to expand...
IMO...you're asking for trouble if you buy a stone w/o a GIA/AGS report.your dealer friend is not gonna leave a few thousand bucks on the table.
 
The way to buy an uncertified diamond is this:

Contingent upon it certifying/appraising out to the dealer''s claims. You take the trouble to send it to GIA/AGS or the independent appraiser of your choice for independent verification. If it appraises to the dealers claimed specifications, everything is fine. The cost of the report/appraisal will be minimal compared to the savings you incur by buying a non-certified stone.

If the stone appraises for less than the dealer''s claimed quality (and you still like the stone), the dealer gives you a discount from what he claimed it was to what it actually is. If you don''t like the stone, you make sure you have the right to return it.

When I had my store, I made this a standard offer on non-certified diamonds I was selling. A high volume, low markup store which engaged in daily buying & selling, I often sold un-certified diamonds which attracted a customer''s eye prior to the time I had to send them in for certification. Many of them made out handsomely with this guarantee, as I sold them accurately graded diamonds at a "non-certified" price.

To those whom the diamond came back from the AGS or GIA with a higher grade than what I sold it to them as, I used to kid them, "how much more are you going to pay me now?"
 
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