Catholic Church Appears to Choose Darwin

[AGBF]

There is a hint that the Catholic Church is taking a stand in support of Darwinism and against creationism.

"ROME, Jan. 18 - The official Vatican newspaper published an article this week labeling as 'correct' the recent decision by a judge in Pennsylvania that intelligent design should not be taught as a scientific alternative to evolution.

'If the model proposed by Darwin is not considered sufficient, one should search for another,' Fiorenzo Facchini, a professor of evolutionary biology at the University of Bologna, wrote in the Jan. 16-17 edition of the paper, L'Osservatore Romano.

'But it is not correct from a methodological point of view to stray from the field of science while pretending to do science,' he wrote, calling intelligent design unscientific. 'It only creates confusion between the scientific plane and those that are philosophical or religious.'

The article was not presented as an official church position. But in the subtle and purposely ambiguous world of the Vatican, the comments seemed notable, given their strength on a delicate question much debated under the new pope, Benedict XVI."

Catholic Church Sides with Darwin

 

[Momoftwo]

So, all they've done is unofficially choose a theory that totally goes against what most other Christians see the Bible as saying. Darwinisn has never been proven, so it's still a theory and I'm not quite sure how they can say it's better science. The catholic church has leaned towards this viewpoint for a while. The interesting thing is there are quite a few scientists who believe in intelligent design and/or creationism.

 

[blodthecat]

When I last had religious instruction from the catholic priest, he said that catholics believe that the story of creation and Adam and Eve was written by the Hewbrews. It isn''t to be taken literally, it was just their theory (in those very early days) on how life was started. So basically, it was written in good faith, but take it with a pinch of salt.

OK..I said...but in that case, why do catholics still believe in the ''original sin'' (If Adam and Eve never really existed)

Perhaps the church is beginning to recognise that Darwins theory of natural selection holds more water...and that when science catches up enough to prove this, the church may be left with egg on its face!

In the UK, catholic churches tend to be occupied by the older generation. There seems to be very few younger people who want to be part of the church. Perhaps because the church has been very slow to move with the times, and its teaching seem somewhat out dated now. In the UK there is also a definite shortage of priests, in the area where I live, one priest is carrying out services in 3 different churches, as there simple aren''t enough young men going into the seminary. Could it now be time that the church considers letting catholic priests marry, or have a two tier system, whereby men can choose to either marry or to lead a celebate life.

Any catholics out there with any thoughts on this???????

Blod

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 1/19/2006 6:06:53 AM
Author: Momoftwo
So, all they''ve done is unofficially choose a theory that totally goes against what most other Christians see the Bible as saying.

Other "christians" don''t count according to the Catholic Church. "One aposlchathic (sp) church under god".

Regarding the Catholic Church - it''s quite alive and well on this side of the pond. They have been attracting a young crowd. And, they mostly choose the Catholic Churches run by the more liberal leaning priests (Jesuits for example). Now, if you want to ask - who is following the doctrine to the roman letter - nope not a lot. Most take it with a grain of salt in terms of the whole birth control thing and some other antiquated ideas.

Yes, I''ve always believed that Priest should be able to marry. Makes no sense to me since it''s a sacrament.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 1/19/2006 9:54:31 AM
Author: fire&ice
''One aposlchathic (sp) church under god''.

Doesn''t one say that he believes in, "One holy, Roman, apostolic Church"? I am going to go look this up. I do not recall whether "Roman" is in there!

Deb

 

[AGBF]

The wording in The Nicean Creed is:

"We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church."

(No "Roman"!)

Deb

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 1/19/2006 10:17:01 AM
Author: AGBF


The wording in The Nicean Creed is:

''We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.''

(No ''Roman''!)

Deb

That''s it - thank you! Funny, I always refused to say this line - as I don''t believe it to be true. I''ve said this before that I think God in more inclusive than that. It gives me a chuckle when "Christians" think they have a lock on Heaven. The "Prodestant Christians" aren''t going to heaven - only the Catholics.

 

[fire&ice]

Oh, and I think the Catholics have a longer history of having to deal w/ the relationship/departure, etc between science and religion.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 1/19/2006 11:54:18 AM
Author: fire&ice
Oh, and I think the Catholics have a longer history of having to deal w/ the relationship/departure, etc between science and religion.

Well, that's a given!!! After all, there were no Protestants until Martin Luther, a Roman Catholic, nailed his Ninety-Five Theses on the door of the church where he was the priest: Wittenberg Church! I had to look up the date: October 31, 1517.

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 1/19/2006 12:43:45 PM
Author: AGBF

Date: 1/19/2006 11:54:18 AM
Author: fire&ice
Oh, and I think the Catholics have a longer history of having to deal w/ the relationship/departure, etc between science and religion.

Well, that''s a given!!! After all, there were no Protestants until Martin Luther, a Roman Catholic, nailed his Ninety-Five Theses on the door of the church where he was the priest: Wittenberg Church! I had to look up the date: October 31, 1517.

That''s what I meant.

 

[strmrdr]

well they have been wrong before......
so likely are this time :}

Yea adaptations happen on a small scale but I certainly didnt evolve from a monkey.
There has never been a provable case of one animal evolving into another there is only so far evolution can go.
That is why so many species have gone extint they couldnt evolve beyond a point to survive.

 

[AGBF]

No one says you evolved from a monkey, Storm. Some of us do believe that people evolved, however.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 1/20/2006 9:56:24 AM
Author: strmrdr
well they have been wrong before......

Ya think? I was rather fond of the notion that the sun revolved around the earth!

Deb

 

[AGBF]

Here is a neat little site that describes how Galileo's observations were received by the Catholic Church. An excerpt follows.

"In 1614 a Florentine priest denounced Galileists from the pulpit. In response, Galileo wrote a long, open letter on the irrelevance of biblical passages in scientific arguments. He argued that interpretation of the Bible should be adapted to increasing knowledge and that no scientific position should ever be made an article of Roman Catholic Faith. Cardinal Bellarmine instructed Galileo he must no longer hold or defend the policy that the earth moves. Galileo remained silent on the subject for a number of years, working on a method of determining longitudes at sea by using his predictions of the positions of Jupiter's satellites.

In 1624 Galileo started on a book he wanted to call Dialogue on the Tides. In this he discussed the Ptolemaic and Copernican hypothesis in relation to the physics of tides. In 1634 the book was licensed for printing but the Roman Catholic censors altered the title to Dialogue on the Two Chief World Systems. It was published at Florence in 1632.

Galileo was summoned to Rome to face the Inquisition and to stand trial for 'grave suspicion of heresy.' This charge was grounded on a report that Galileo had been personally ordered in 1616 not to discuss Coperican theory either orally or in writing. Cardinal Bellarmine had died, but Galileo produced a certificate signed by the cardinal stating that Galileo had been subjected to no further restriction than any other Roman Catholic under the 1616 edict. No signed document contradicting this was ever found.

In 1633 Galileo was compelled to abjure and was sentenced to life imprisonment, which was swiftly commuted to house arrest. The Dialogue was ordered to be burned and the sentence against was to be read publicly in every university in Italy. Imprisoned at his farm in the hills surrounding Florence, Galileo's was becoming increasingly frail and his sight was failing. Nevertheless, it was here that he wrote his most important scientific work, Discourses Concering Two New Sciences, which was published in Holland in 1638. Dealing with falling bodies and the path of projectiles it laid the foundations for modern kinematics."

Galileo

Deborah

 

[fire&ice]

Yeah, but roman catholic law was law. So, it trancends religion in that respect. Gallileo was denouncing law - which didn''t sit well. It wasn''t the scientific thought persay. I guess what I am saying is that anything that went against past thought wasn''t good for society. Much like the current admin. who don''t like any questioning of actions of reality.

Deb, I do remember that the creed did include the words "Roman". Most don''t have that anymore. Could have been added w/ the scisim (yeah, I really can spell). Could have been dilluted/deleted over time.

I think the biggest argument for Darwin''s theory is - and again going to butcher the spelling - ologiny repeat phyologiny (??). In the womb, we repeat our evolution.

 

[Rank Amateur]

The Nicene Creed is ancient (AD 325?) and may predate the official Roman Catholic church (AD 375?). I believe that catholic here means a broad universal church intended for everyone. Jesus was sent for all people - Jews, gentiles, riteous, sinful, rich or poor.

Being the center of their universe, many Roman Catholics think the word "catholic" refers to them. I am related by marriage to a host of Roman Catholics and I just shake my head when it comes to how little they know of Christianity outside thieir own denomination.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 1/20/2006 10:48:29 AM
Author: fire&ice
Deb, I do remember that the creed did include the words ''Roman''. Most don''t have that anymore. Could have been added w/ the scisim (yeah, I really can spell). Could have been dilluted/deleted over time.

You may be right. All I could find about a change in the Nicene Creed was that after the Great Schism in 1054, the filioque clause was added to the western church''s version. That had nothing to do with the word, "Roman", and yet after the Great Schism, it makes sense that the western Catholic Church might add the word, "Roman".

"The first permanent severing of the Christian community. Its beginnings lay in the division of the Roman Empire at the end of the third century. Thereafter, the Greek (Eastern) and Latin (Western) sections of the Roman world were administered separately. Their cultural and economic differences intensified. When the political institutions of the Latin empire collapsed in the fifth century, the Greek empire, centered in Constantinople, continued to flourish.

The sustaining institution during this period was the Christian church. Its theology dominated all forms of though in both the united East and the disintegrating West. Important issues, even worldly ones, were transposed into theological questions.

Two fundamental differences between the Latin Catholic and Greek Orthodox traditions developed during the early Middle Ages. The first was the Petrine Doctrine, absolute in the West, resisted in the East. And the second was a Western addition to the Nicene Creed which provoked the filioque controversy. Other divisive issues such as the celibacy of the priesthood, use of unleavened bread in the Eucharist, episcopal control over the sacrament of confirmation, and priestly beards and monkish tonsures were the source of conflict but not schism."

Deb

 

[AGBF]

Date: 1/20/2006 11:49:50 AM
Author: Rank Amateur
The Nicene Creed is ancient (AD 325?) and may predate the official Roman Catholic church (AD 375?).

You are absolutely right (for once). The Council of Nicea was held around 700 years prior to the Great Schism (when the Western and Eastern churches divided).

Deb

 

[moon river]

I live a couple of towns away from where they held the ''Scopes Monkey Trial'' and it has been a battle of wills with the school boards in the area for years. They send home ''permission slips'' for parents to sign to introduce the ''theory of evolution'' into classroom conversation. They don''t teach it-they discuss it. If you choose not to sign your child is excused from the class.It is a huge fight every year when it comes time for the class. We(our county) are also involved in a lawsuit w/ACLU over the Ten Commandments hanging in our 250 year old courthouse. They were removed at gunpoint by the Sheriffs office! We also have the next county over from us that has banned homosexuals!! I wish I weren''t in Dixie!! Hooray-Hooray

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 1/20/2006 11:49:50 AM
Author: Rank Amateur
The Nicene Creed is ancient (AD 325?) and may predate the official Roman Catholic church (AD 375?). I believe that catholic here means a broad universal church intended for everyone. Jesus was sent for all people - Jews, gentiles, riteous, sinful, rich or poor.

Being the center of their universe, many Roman Catholics think the word ''catholic'' refers to them. I am related by marriage to a host of Roman Catholics and I just shake my head when it comes to how little they know of Christianity outside thieir own denomination.

Catholic is Catholic. It was the universal church. It is history that can be interpreted within new denominations. I find it a tad offensive that your beliefs are interpreted as Catholics having little knowledge. They just believe differently.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 1/20/2006 11:49:50 AM
Author: Rank Amateur
Being the center of their universe, many Roman Catholics think the word 'catholic' refers to them. I am related by marriage to a host of Roman Catholics and I just shake my head when it comes to how little they know of Christianity outside thieir own denomination.

In all fairness, R/A, how many of us know very much about the religion of others? Do you find Protestants to be incredibly knowledgeable about other religions: Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox Christianity, Protestant denominations other than their own, Judaism? And how many Jews and Christians know anything about Islam, Buddhism, and the multitude of other religions practiced around the world?

In short, do Roman Catholics really have the market on egotism and ignorance cornered?

Deb

 

[fire&ice]

And, I want to add that though this is not my belief. How can there be a history of other denomination/Christainity when all others outside of Catholic are pretenders?

It''s archatic. But, your history is not the history of the Catholic Church so it''s irrelavent.

 

[moon river]

Date: 1/20/2006 12:06:06 PM
Author: AGBF

Date: 1/20/2006 11:49:50 AM
Author: Rank Amateur
Being the center of their universe, many Roman Catholics think the word 'catholic' refers to them. I am related by marriage to a host of Roman Catholics and I just shake my head when it comes to how little they know of Christianity outside thieir own denomination.

In all fairness, R/A, how many of us know very much about the religion of others? Do you find Protestants to be incredibly knowledgeable about other religions: Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox Christianity, Protestant denominationsother than their own, Judaism? And how many Jews and Christians know anything about Islam, Buddhism, and the multitude of other religions practiced around the world?

In short, do Roman Catholics really have the market on egotism and ignorance cornered?

Deb

I took a course in college on religion as an elective. While it merely touched on each differant religion and their beliefs it gave me a better understanding of things. I had always been curious and figured I'd get more accurate info through a course study than have each religion teach me their's is the only 'true religion'.( I was raised Southern Baptist and spent my entire childhood watching the ceiling of the church during services for the 'Hellfire & Brimstone' to come raining down on us!

)

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 1/20/2006 12:06:06 PM
Author: AGBF

Date: 1/20/2006 11:49:50 AM
Author: Rank Amateur
Being the center of their universe, many Roman Catholics think the word ''catholic'' refers to them. I am related by marriage to a host of Roman Catholics and I just shake my head when it comes to how little they know of Christianity outside thieir own denomination.

In all fairness, R/A, how many of us know very much about the religion of others? Do you find Protestants to be incredibly knowledgeable about other religions: Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox Christianity, Protestant denominations other than their own, Judaism? And how many Jews and Christians know anything about Islam, Buddhism, and the multitude of other religions practiced around the world?

In short, do Roman Catholics really have the market on egotism and ignorance cornered?

Deb

Isn''t that the whole idea of following a faith? It''s faith.

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 1/20/2006 12:11:58 PM
Author: moon river

Date: 1/20/2006 12:06:06 PM
Author: AGBF

Date: 1/20/2006 11:49:50 AM
Author: Rank Amateur
Being the center of their universe, many Roman Catholics think the word ''catholic'' refers to them. I am related by marriage to a host of Roman Catholics and I just shake my head when it comes to how little they know of Christianity outside thieir own denomination.

In all fairness, R/A, how many of us know very much about the religion of others? Do you find Protestants to be incredibly knowledgeable about other religions: Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox Christianity, Protestant denominationsother than their own, Judaism? And how many Jews and Christians know anything about Islam, Buddhism, and the multitude of other religions practiced around the world?

In short, do Roman Catholics really have the market on egotism and ignorance cornered?

Deb

I took a course in college on religion as and elective. While it merely touched on each differant religion and their beliefs it gave me a better understanding of things. I had always been curious and figured I''d get more accurate info through a course study than have each religion teach me their''s is the only ''true religion''.( I was raised Southern Baptist and spent my entire childhood watching the ceiling of the church during services for the ''Hellfire & Brimstone'' to come raining down on us!

)

Precisely my point as to why I don''t feel connected to organized religion. It''s hard for me to think that one religious group has a lock on knowing the one true God & get a by to heaven.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 1/20/2006 12:11:58 PM
Author: moon river
I took a course in college on religion as an elective. While it merely touched on each differant religion and their beliefs it gave me a better understanding of things. I had always been curious and figured I''d get more accurate info through a course study than have each religion teach me their''s is the only ''true religion''.

Agreed . I was raised as a Unitarian, however, and one year of our Sunday School was devoted to, "The Church Across the Street". In fact, my mother taught it one year. It included visits to many houses of worship and discussion of the beliefs of the people who practiced those religions. Unitarians tend to be that way, though. Uh...non-dogmatic. They have no creed, so they are fairly tolerant types .

Deb

 

[Momoftwo]

Date: 1/20/2006 12:06:06 PM
Author: AGBF

Date: 1/20/2006 11:49:50 AM
Author: Rank Amateur
Being the center of their universe, many Roman Catholics think the word ''catholic'' refers to them. I am related by marriage to a host of Roman Catholics and I just shake my head when it comes to how little they know of Christianity outside thieir own denomination.

In all fairness, R/A, how many of us know very much about the religion of others? Do you find Protestants to be incredibly knowledgeable about other religions: Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox Christianity, Protestant denominations other than their own, Judaism? And how many Jews and Christians know anything about Islam, Buddhism, and the multitude of other religions practiced around the world?

In short, do Roman Catholics really have the market on egotism and ignorance cornered?

Deb

My DH was raised Catholic and is now an evangelical bible believing Christian and he knows a lot about both faiths. With us it''s all about believing the Bible is the unnerring word of God. That''s where the difference in Catholicism and Protestantism comes in. The Catholic church writes their own rules and theories with little Biblical reference and not all Protestant denominations believe the same thing so lumping Christians other than Catholics into one pot is incorrect. My main problem with having attended many Catholic services is not being allowed to take communion and basically being told that my soul is being prayed for since I''m not Catholic nor do I go to confession. It''s very condescending. You will never hear that in the church we attend as all Christians are welcome to partake. The Bible says there is one way to the Father and that is through Jesus Christ. No interpretation needed. That''s what it says. No confession through anyone else nor a label is needed. Just the faith. I just have a problem with this whole idea of a Theory being taught as truth when it''s never ever been proven.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 1/20/2006 10:10:29 AM
Author: AGBF



No one says you evolved from a monkey, Storm. Some of us do believe that people evolved, however.

evolved from what do tell?
If you want to say that people have changed over the ages that is true but go back to the first and they are still humans not apes/monkeys.
macro evolution exists there is no question about that, ie adaptation within a species but an ape to a human... no didnt happen.

Btw I find that picture highly offencive and im not that easy to offend.

 

[Momoftwo]

My DH has the fish (truth) eating the Darwin fish with legs on his bumper.

 

[partgypsy]

I don''t agree with many of the stands of catholicsm, but do agree with the statement
''It only creates confusion between the scientific plane and those that are philosophical or religious.''

Religion is based on faith. Science is based on evidence. That is the difference and people who do not agree evolution exists it is because they feel belief in its existence is essentially forbidden or contradicted by their religious beliefs. The belief that there is is somehow not enough evidence for evolution, or that it is somehow faulty or "wrong" (because it has to be!) naturally follows, but it is not a scientific reasoning, it is emotional. I don''t know how I would feel if I was told something that my natural curiosity, intellect and explorations resounded in me was true, was wrong and that I would be alienated from God if I continued to believe in it. Fortunately, I was raised Greek orthodox, and though there were plenty of discussions about the spirit, in that community to go on to be a doctor, a physicist, or yes even an evolutionary biologist would be a proper and good use of ones god-given abilities.