Can't vote. Can't drink. But here's an Uzi...

[monarch64]

I have no sympathy for any of the parties involved, including the 9 year old. There is no law, existing or enacted in the future, that will save people from their own idiocy.

 

[momhappy]

I do not believe that it's fair to label a 9 year-old an idiot - she was simply doing what she was told. Having absolutely no sympathy is pretty harsh IMO, but I suppose that's your prerogative

 

[monarch64]

I do not believe that it's fair to label a 9 year-old an idiot - she was simply doing what she was told. Having absolutely no sympathy is pretty harsh IMO, but I suppose that's your prerogative

Yup, it IS my prerogative. What is the age we adults have deemed that children know the difference between right and wrong? 7? It is my opinion that a 9 year old who has decided she likes shooting guns could have known that an Uzi was too much for her to handle. I'm not going to waste my time debating my opinion with you. Thanks for your input on my input. Super productive conversation as usual.

 

[momhappy]

I do not believe that it's fair to label a 9 year-old an idiot - she was simply doing what she was told. Having absolutely no sympathy is pretty harsh IMO, but I suppose that's your prerogative

Yup, it IS my prerogative. What is the age we adults have deemed that children know the difference between right and wrong? 7? It is my opinion that a 9 year old who has decided she likes shooting guns could have known that an Uzi was too much for her to handle. I'm not going to waste my time debating my opinion with you. Thanks for your input on my input. Super productive conversation as usual.

I wasn't starting a debate (or a conversation for that matter), I was just responding to your post. You are certainly entitled to your opinions - I was just shocked that someone wouldn't have sympathy for the child involved. I have a 9 year-old and no, there is no way that they would have the ability to fully comprehend the power of an uzi (and therefore know that it would be too much to handle), especially having never shot one before…. If that's the way you feel, that's the way you feel and you don't need to explain and/or justify. I don't know why you need to get defensive (with the sarcasm and eye roll)? If you don't like me that's perfectly fine, but it's not that hard to keep things civil.

 

[purplesparklies]

As a teacher and mother, I can tell you that a nine year old child will put their trust in the parent & instructor. She was undoubtedly nervous and unsure but a child that young is often nervous and unsure about new things. They learn to put their faith in the responsible adults who teach and encourage them. If they didn't, they would never try new things. This child was wronged by the adults who were supposed to be caring for her. Period. To blame the child in this instance is ludicrous. She has been traumatized and I feel horrible for her. The adults, however, get no sympathy from me.

 

[momhappy]

As a teacher and mother, I can tell you that a nine year old child will put their trust in the parent & instructor. She was undoubtedly nervous and unsure but a child that young is often nervous and unsure about new things. They learn to put their faith in the responsible adults who teach and encourage them. If they didn't, they would never try new things. This child was wronged by the adults who were supposed to be caring for her. Period. To blame the child in this instance is ludicrous. She has been traumatized and I feel horrible for her. The adults, however, get no sympathy from me.

I completely agree. How on Earth could anyone expect a 9 year-old to understand the power of an uzi (and if we did expect that, what a frightening concept that would be because that would mean that more young children would have a complete understanding of fully automatic weapons) This girl likely put her faith in her parents and the instructor, who clearly failed her. So very sad that she has to live with their mistake for the rest of her life

 

[Maria D]

*yawn*

Just another accidental gun death among people who enjoy shooting guns for fun. Who cares? It's no different than an accidental fall by an experienced rock-climber; the person died doing what they loved, RIP. As for the 9 year-old girl? Just because we feel that we (or our children) would be traumatized for the rest our lives by such an incident doesn't mean this girl will. Her parents will help her understand that it was an accident and she did nothing wrong.

We live in a country that has an entertainment venue called "Bullets and Burgers". Bullets and Burgers! Among other fun activities are the Extreme Sniper Packages that range in price from $600 - $1600. Average user rating is 4.5 out of 5 stars.

Perhaps this kid's parents purchased the Bronze "Bullets and Burgers Ground Adventure." Minimum age 8 years. It includes: 1 sub gun 25 rds, 1 machine gun 25 r rds, 9mm glock 5 rds for the bargain price of $199. Wow, I have parents balk at paying $99 for a graphing calculator.

I'm with you Monarch - no sympathy for anyone involved here. If that seems harsh, please know that I have no sympathy for people who die climbing Mt Everest either! There are risky activities out there that thrill-seeking types enjoy. Like shooting? Climbing? Jumping out of airplanes? You or someone you love may get hurt or die.

 

[momhappy]

^Well, apparently some of us here care, which is why the thread was started and why some of us have responded. Some of us care because this wasn't just about an accidental shooting, it was a shooting that occurred under extraordinary circumstances, which makes it discussion-worthy. I agree that certain activities carry certain risk, but it doesn't mean that I don't care when people die. What about driving a car? Drive a car and you or someone you love may get hurt or die too, but most of us are sympathetic when someone dies in a car accident...

 

[Maria D]

^Well, apparently some of us here care, which is why the thread was started and why some of us have responded. Some of us care because this wasn't just about an accidental shooting, it was a shooting that occurred under extraordinary circumstances, which makes it discussion-worthy. I agree that certain activities carry certain risk, but it doesn't mean that I don't care when people die. What about driving a car? Drive a car and you or someone you love may get hurt or die too, but most of us are sympathetic when someone dies in a car accident...

These were NOT extraordinary circumstances. Here are some quotes from the owner of this entertainment establishment in an interview where he is defending the minimum age requirement.
-------
"This was a very mature young lady, and something she wanted to do and her parents her treating her," he said of the 9-year-old. "This was something that was high on her bucket list to do, and her parents took her out to do what she was going to do."

Hayes asked Scarmado how he would respond to critics who say young children shouldn't be allowed to fire automatic weapons.

"We've probably had a 100,000 people shoot on our two ranges combined," he said. "And we've had, of that, probably 1,500 to 2,000 of them have been kids. The kids rent a lot of automatic weapons, we do birthday parties for children here, we do bachelor, bachelorette parties at both facilities. We're part of the Las Vegas entertainment industry. ... If there wasn't a large demand for it, we wouldn't do it."

He added that he has no plans to close his business, but is considering imposing a minimum height for children.

"We're reviewing the policy, the age," he said. "Of course we're not going to close the range, obviously. We're not going to stop the range operation or the rental of automatic weapons whatsoever. ... What we're kind of kicking around right now is like at Disneyland, if you're not this tall you can't shoot."
----

Out of 1500 -2000 kids having fun shooting guns, one little accident happened. yawn, yawn, yawn

 

[Karl_K]

I have no sympathy for any of the parties involved, including the 9 year old. There is no law, existing or enacted in the future, that will save people from their own idiocy.

wow that's rough.
The instructor is 100% to blame.
He was out of position and gave someone a gun they were not ready to handle and paid for it with his life.
If he had been in the proper position it would not have happened.
He is the person who could have 100% prevented this from happening.
I feel really bad for the girl, her parents, and his family.

 

[Gypsy]

These were NOT extraordinary circumstances. Here are some quotes from the owner of this entertainment establishment in an interview where he is defending the minimum age requirement.
-------
"This was a very mature young lady, and something she wanted to do and her parents her treating her," he said of the 9-year-old. "This was something that was high on her bucket list to do, and her parents took her out to do what she was going to do."

Hayes asked Scarmado how he would respond to critics who say young children shouldn't be allowed to fire automatic weapons.

"We've probably had a 100,000 people shoot on our two ranges combined," he said. "And we've had, of that, probably 1,500 to 2,000 of them have been kids. The kids rent a lot of automatic weapons, we do birthday parties for children here, we do bachelor, bachelorette parties at both facilities. We're part of the Las Vegas entertainment industry. ... If there wasn't a large demand for it, we wouldn't do it."

He added that he has no plans to close his business, but is considering imposing a minimum height for children.

"We're reviewing the policy, the age," he said. "Of course we're not going to close the range, obviously. We're not going to stop the range operation or the rental of automatic weapons whatsoever. ... What we're kind of kicking around right now is like at Disneyland, if you're not this tall you can't shoot."

----

Out of 1500 -2000 kids having fun shooting guns, one little accident happened. yawn, yawn, yawn

And this is it for me. Not the exception. This is NOT responsible gun ownership. I never called all gun owners yahoos Momhappy so don't put words in my mouth. I called people who would put in an Uzi in an 8 year olds hands on a REGULAR basis YAHOOS. And they are. I also called them irresponsible morons. They are that too.

Yes there are responsible gun owners. But the irresponsible ones aren't a one off. Or RARE. In fact they are very prevalent and persistent. For every responsible gun owner I have met, I have met at least 2 irresponsible gun owners.

What one person's definition of responsible is, is very different than another. This YAHOO gun range owner CLEARLY feels that he is a responsible person.

He is not. The fact that they have had one accident is PURE CHANCE. Uzi's should not be given to 8 year olds. Or really anyone under the age of 18. If you can't vote, if you can't be charged as an adult for your crimes, and you can't DRIVE... you shouldn't be able to shoot an Uzi IMO.

 

[momhappy]

^Well, apparently some of us here care, which is why the thread was started and why some of us have responded. Some of us care because this wasn't just about an accidental shooting, it was a shooting that occurred under extraordinary circumstances, which makes it discussion-worthy. I agree that certain activities carry certain risk, but it doesn't mean that I don't care when people die. What about driving a car? Drive a car and you or someone you love may get hurt or die too, but most of us are sympathetic when someone dies in a car accident...

These were NOT extraordinary circumstances. Here are some quotes from the owner of this entertainment establishment in an interview where he is defending the minimum age requirement.
-------
"This was a very mature young lady, and something she wanted to do and her parents her treating her," he said of the 9-year-old. "This was something that was high on her bucket list to do, and her parents took her out to do what she was going to do."

Hayes asked Scarmado how he would respond to critics who say young children shouldn't be allowed to fire automatic weapons.

"We've probably had a 100,000 people shoot on our two ranges combined," he said. "And we've had, of that, probably 1,500 to 2,000 of them have been kids. The kids rent a lot of automatic weapons, we do birthday parties for children here, we do bachelor, bachelorette parties at both facilities. We're part of the Las Vegas entertainment industry. ... If there wasn't a large demand for it, we wouldn't do it."

He added that he has no plans to close his business, but is considering imposing a minimum height for children.

"We're reviewing the policy, the age," he said. "Of course we're not going to close the range, obviously. We're not going to stop the range operation or the rental of automatic weapons whatsoever. ... What we're kind of kicking around right now is like at Disneyland, if you're not this tall you can't shoot."
----

Out of 1500 -2000 kids having fun shooting guns, one little accident happened. yawn, yawn, yawn

If these weren't unusual circumstances, then that's news to me. The quotes referenced 1,500-2,000 kids (shooting on their ranges), but during what time frame? 1 year, 5 years, etc.? Also, how do they define "kids"? How many of those firing the automatic weapons were 10 and under? The quote just says "the kids rent a lot of automatic weapons" so again, it doesn't say specifically how many 9 year-olds were shooting fully automatic weapons. I still feel that the circumstances were unusual/extraordinary and if not, that's pretty scary...

 

[yssie]

duplicate

 

[momhappy]

These were NOT extraordinary circumstances. Here are some quotes from the owner of this entertainment establishment in an interview where he is defending the minimum age requirement.
-------
"This was a very mature young lady, and something she wanted to do and her parents her treating her," he said of the 9-year-old. "This was something that was high on her bucket list to do, and her parents took her out to do what she was going to do."

Hayes asked Scarmado how he would respond to critics who say young children shouldn't be allowed to fire automatic weapons.

"We've probably had a 100,000 people shoot on our two ranges combined," he said. "And we've had, of that, probably 1,500 to 2,000 of them have been kids. The kids rent a lot of automatic weapons, we do birthday parties for children here, we do bachelor, bachelorette parties at both facilities. We're part of the Las Vegas entertainment industry. ... If there wasn't a large demand for it, we wouldn't do it."

He added that he has no plans to close his business, but is considering imposing a minimum height for children.

"We're reviewing the policy, the age," he said. "Of course we're not going to close the range, obviously. We're not going to stop the range operation or the rental of automatic weapons whatsoever. ... What we're kind of kicking around right now is like at Disneyland, if you're not this tall you can't shoot."

----

Out of 1500 -2000 kids having fun shooting guns, one little accident happened. yawn, yawn, yawn

And this is it for me. Not the exception. This is NOT responsible gun ownership. I never called all gun owners yahoos Momhappy so don't put words in my mouth. I called people who would put in an Uzi in an 8 year olds hands on a REGULAR basis YAHOOS. And they are. I also called them irresponsible morons. They are that too.

Yes there are responsible gun owners. But the irresponsible ones aren't a one off. Or RARE. In fact they are very prevalent and persistent. For every responsible gun owner I have met, I have met at least 2 irresponsible gun owners.

What one person's definition of responsible is, is very different than another. This YAHOO gun range owner CLEARLY feels that he is a responsible person.

He is not. The fact that they have had one accident is PURE CHANCE. Uzi's should not be given to 8 year olds. Or really anyone under the age of 18. If you can't vote, if you can't be charged as an adult for your crimes, and you can't DRIVE... you shouldn't be able to shoot an Uzi IMO.

We share the same opinion of the incident and I didn't mean to put words in your mouth, but most gun owners that I know are not yahoos. If your experience with gun owners has been that for every 1 responsible owner, there are 2 irresponsible ones, then that is very different from mine. You're right, though, everyone's definition of "responsible" is different, so it's tough to measure.

 

[yssie]

Hayes asked Scarmado how he would respond to critics who say young children shouldn't be allowed to fire automatic weapons.

"We've probably had a 100,000 people shoot on our two ranges combined," he said. "And we've had, of that, probably 1,500 to 2,000 of them have been kids. The kids rent a lot of automatic weapons, we do birthday parties for children here,

And this is it for me. Not the exception. This is NOT responsible gun ownership.

I called people who would put in an Uzi in an 8 year olds hands on a REGULAR basis YAHOOS. And they are. I also called them irresponsible morons. They are that too.

Yes there are responsible gun owners. But the irresponsible ones aren't a one off. Or RARE. In fact they are very prevalent and persistent.

What one person's definition of responsible is, is very different than another. This YAHOO gun range owner CLEARLY feels that he is a responsible person.

He is not.

There are actually people - non-institutionlised people living amongst the general public - who believe that regularly giving children control of automatic weapons is anything but COMPLETELY F*CKING NUTS!?

I'm not anti-gun. I have friends who collect and shoot as hobbyists. I have friends who are hunters. I have military family and friends.
I'm pro-responsible-ownership. And I'm anti-what-WAYYYY-too-many-nutjobs-apparently-believe-is-responsible-ownership.

We share the same opinion of the incident and I didn't mean to put words in your mouth, but most gun owners that I know are not yahoos. If your experience with gun owners has been that for every 1 responsible owner, there are 2 irresponsible ones, then that is very different from mine. You're right, though, everyone's definition of "responsible" is different, so it's tough to measure.

This. I don't feel the least bit worried or unsafe around the many gun owners I know personally, but the fact that yahoos like this range owner and his staff can be licensed to legally operate in this way is indicative of a desperate need for gun control reform, and if some aspects of that reformation infringe on sane, responsible owners' rights... well, that's the price of public safety and I really can't understand taking objection to it.

ETA: Civilians in the USA in 2014 DO NOT need automatic weapons. Civilians in the USA in 2014 DO NOT need weapons capable of discharging 500 rounds per minute. In any context. Not at home, not on a shooting range, never. And if not having weapons capable of discharging 500 rounds per minute "infringes on your rights", well, that's just too bloody bad. The vast majority of my responsibly owning friends/family agrees, vehemently.

 

[Maria D]

If these weren't unusual circumstances, then that's news to me. The quotes referenced 1,500-2,000 kids (shooting on their ranges), but during what time frame? 1 year, 5 years, etc.? Also, how do they define "kids"? How many of those firing the automatic weapons were 10 and under? The quote just says "the kids rent a lot of automatic weapons" so again, it doesn't say specifically how many 9 year-olds were shooting fully automatic weapons. I still feel that the circumstances were unusual/extraordinary and if not, that's pretty scary...

Well then you should be afraid. If Bullets and Burgers has been in business for 30 years (which I doubt), that's a minimum of 50 kids shooting a year, or about one a week. Hardly extraordinary.

But then again, I don't know what your cut-off age is. Nine is apparently too young for you, maybe 11 is OK? The owner does say he does a lot of children's birthday parties. I only have one child and after about the age of 10 she and her friends stopped having "venue" birthday parties in favor of sleepovers.

 

[momhappy]

If these weren't unusual circumstances, then that's news to me. The quotes referenced 1,500-2,000 kids (shooting on their ranges), but during what time frame? 1 year, 5 years, etc.? Also, how do they define "kids"? How many of those firing the automatic weapons were 10 and under? The quote just says "the kids rent a lot of automatic weapons" so again, it doesn't say specifically how many 9 year-olds were shooting fully automatic weapons. I still feel that the circumstances were unusual/extraordinary and if not, that's pretty scary...

Well then you should be afraid. If Bullets and Burgers has been in business for 30 years (which I doubt), that's a minimum of 50 kids shooting a year, or about one a week. Hardly extraordinary.

But then again, I don't know what your cut-off age is. Nine is apparently too young for you, maybe 11 is OK? The owner does say he does a lot of children's birthday parties. I only have one child and after about the age of 10 she and her friends stopped having "venue" birthday parties in favor of sleepovers.

I was referring to fully automatic weapons - in other words, I still don't think that it's the norm for kids under the age of 10, to be shooting fully automatic weapons. I don't have an issue with young people learning how to shoot certain types of weapons in controlled environments, but I don't condone kids shooting fully automatic weapons (and by kids, I mean under the age of 1. I don't really have a cut-off age is because to be honest, I've never given it much thought. My children are all currently elementary school-age and I would not consider any of them old enough to handle any sort of weapon. I know that my DH was taught how to shoot a handgun around age 10 and I currently know lots of teens who go hunting with their dads, etc.

 

[Maria D]

If these weren't unusual circumstances, then that's news to me. The quotes referenced 1,500-2,000 kids (shooting on their ranges), but during what time frame? 1 year, 5 years, etc.? Also, how do they define "kids"? How many of those firing the automatic weapons were 10 and under? The quote just says "the kids rent a lot of automatic weapons" so again, it doesn't say specifically how many 9 year-olds were shooting fully automatic weapons. I still feel that the circumstances were unusual/extraordinary and if not, that's pretty scary...

Well then you should be afraid. If Bullets and Burgers has been in business for 30 years (which I doubt), that's a minimum of 50 kids shooting a year, or about one a week. Hardly extraordinary.

But then again, I don't know what your cut-off age is. Nine is apparently too young for you, maybe 11 is OK? The owner does say he does a lot of children's birthday parties. I only have one child and after about the age of 10 she and her friends stopped having "venue" birthday parties in favor of sleepovers.

I was referring to fully automatic weapons - in other words, I still don't think that it's the norm for kids under the age of 10, to be shooting fully automatic weapons. I don't have an issue with young people learning how to shoot certain types of weapons in controlled environments, but I don't condone kids shooting fully automatic weapons (and by kids, I mean under the age of 1. I don't really have a cut-off age is because to be honest, I've never given it much thought. My children are all currently elementary school-age and I would not consider any of them old enough to handle any sort of weapon. I know that my DH was taught how to shoot a handgun around age 10 and I currently know lots of teens who go hunting with their dads, etc.

Sorry momhappy, our conversation is going around in a ridiculous circle, don't you think? I said, to no one in particular, that I didn't feel sympathy for the instructor, girl or her parents. You responded specifically to me that some of you care because it wasn't just a regular gun accident, but one of extraordinary circumstances. I countered that it wasn't extraordinary, kids shoot all the time at this range according to the owner. First you nit-pick that we don't know if it's all the time because we have a total number, not a time-frame. Also, we don't know how many 9 year olds, just 8 - 18 year olds. When I do a little math to again show these weren't unusual circumstances at all, and mention those birthday parties must be for younger kids, you change the context to fully automatic weapons and widen the realm to everywhere, not just at this range.

Seriously? Look, THIS particular family entertainment venue in Vegas, which by the way is rated wildly high at places like trip advisor and yelp, routinely lets kids from 8-18 shoot fully automatic weapons. It's not unusual AT ALL. Their LOWEST PRICE PACKAGE includes 25 rounds with a machine gun. I know zilch about machine guns, so if they are not included in fully automatic weapons I guess you can nitpick again.

Feel all the sympathy you want - I'm not knocking you for it, your sympathy doesn't cost me anything. I merely said that I don't care about this accident anymore than when I read about all the drunk people that have drowned in Maine this summer. Whatever.

edited to add:
nbcnews.com isn't even calling it an accident - they are using the word "mis-hap."

 

[momhappy]

If these weren't unusual circumstances, then that's news to me. The quotes referenced 1,500-2,000 kids (shooting on their ranges), but during what time frame? 1 year, 5 years, etc.? Also, how do they define "kids"? How many of those firing the automatic weapons were 10 and under? The quote just says "the kids rent a lot of automatic weapons" so again, it doesn't say specifically how many 9 year-olds were shooting fully automatic weapons. I still feel that the circumstances were unusual/extraordinary and if not, that's pretty scary...

Well then you should be afraid. If Bullets and Burgers has been in business for 30 years (which I doubt), that's a minimum of 50 kids shooting a year, or about one a week. Hardly extraordinary.

But then again, I don't know what your cut-off age is. Nine is apparently too young for you, maybe 11 is OK? The owner does say he does a lot of children's birthday parties. I only have one child and after about the age of 10 she and her friends stopped having "venue" birthday parties in favor of sleepovers.

I was referring to fully automatic weapons - in other words, I still don't think that it's the norm for kids under the age of 10, to be shooting fully automatic weapons. I don't have an issue with young people learning how to shoot certain types of weapons in controlled environments, but I don't condone kids shooting fully automatic weapons (and by kids, I mean under the age of 1. I don't really have a cut-off age is because to be honest, I've never given it much thought. My children are all currently elementary school-age and I would not consider any of them old enough to handle any sort of weapon. I know that my DH was taught how to shoot a handgun around age 10 and I currently know lots of teens who go hunting with their dads, etc.

Sorry momhappy, our conversation is going around in a ridiculous circle, don't you think? I said, to no one in particular, that I didn't feel sympathy for the instructor, girl or her parents. You responded specifically to me that some of you care because it wasn't just a regular gun accident, but one of extraordinary circumstances. I countered that it wasn't extraordinary, kids shoot all the time at this range according to the owner. First you nit-pick that we don't know if it's all the time because we have a total number, not a time-frame. Also, we don't know how many 9 year olds, just 8 - 18 year olds. When I do a little math to again show these weren't unusual circumstances at all, and mention those birthday parties must be for younger kids, you change the context to fully automatic weapons and widen the realm to everywhere, not just at this range.

Seriously? Look, THIS particular family entertainment venue in Vegas, which by the way is rated wildly high at places like trip advisor and yelp, routinely lets kids from 8-18 shoot fully automatic weapons. It's not unusual AT ALL. Their LOWEST PRICE PACKAGE includes 25 rounds with a machine gun. I know zilch about machine guns, so if they are not included in fully automatic weapons I guess you can nitpick again.

Feel all the sympathy you want - I'm not knocking you for it, your sympathy doesn't cost me anything. I merely said that I don't care about this accident anymore than when I read about all the drunk people that have drowned in Maine this summer. Whatever.

edited to add:
nbcnews.com isn't even calling it an accident - they are using the word "mis-hap."

Maria - I think you missed my point. I'm not here to change your opinions (or to encourage you to feel sympathetic when you don't). It's okay to agree to disagree I'm not nit-picking any more than you are and I haven't changed the context (I have always been referring to fully automatic weapons in my posts). You think that a 9 year-old shooting a fully automatic weapon is the norm and I don't. We are both entitled to our opinions and I didn't think that any of this was personal, so no harm done. I actually appreciate the dialogue, but if you don't, then I apologize for engaging you in the conversation.

 

[AGBF]

I have no sympathy for any of the parties involved, including the 9 year old. There is no law, existing or enacted in the future, that will save people from their own idiocy.

I disagree. There are many laws that save people from their own idiocy. And I also do not know that the 9 year-old (for whom I do have sympathy) is an idiot yet. Further exposure to her parents is extremely likely to turn her into one if she is not one yet, however.

Deb


PS-An editorial in, "The New York Times" today states,"In a similar tragedy six years ago, an 8-year-old boy lost control of an Uzi when he aimed at pumpkins but killed himself at a Massachusetts gun range. His home state of Connecticut reacted by enacting a state restriction that no one under 16 years of age can have access to machine guns. But don’t count on swift action in Arizona, where the gun culture is deeply entrenched. (One Arizona gun club invites families to pose with Santa Claus while brandishing their firearms.)"

 

[Maria D]

If these weren't unusual circumstances, then that's news to me. The quotes referenced 1,500-2,000 kids (shooting on their ranges), but during what time frame? 1 year, 5 years, etc.? Also, how do they define "kids"? How many of those firing the automatic weapons were 10 and under? The quote just says "the kids rent a lot of automatic weapons" so again, it doesn't say specifically how many 9 year-olds were shooting fully automatic weapons. I still feel that the circumstances were unusual/extraordinary and if not, that's pretty scary...

Well then you should be afraid. If Bullets and Burgers has been in business for 30 years (which I doubt), that's a minimum of 50 kids shooting a year, or about one a week. Hardly extraordinary.

But then again, I don't know what your cut-off age is. Nine is apparently too young for you, maybe 11 is OK? The owner does say he does a lot of children's birthday parties. I only have one child and after about the age of 10 she and her friends stopped having "venue" birthday parties in favor of sleepovers.

I was referring to fully automatic weapons - in other words, I still don't think that it's the norm for kids under the age of 10, to be shooting fully automatic weapons. I don't have an issue with young people learning how to shoot certain types of weapons in controlled environments, but I don't condone kids shooting fully automatic weapons (and by kids, I mean under the age of 1. I don't really have a cut-off age is because to be honest, I've never given it much thought. My children are all currently elementary school-age and I would not consider any of them old enough to handle any sort of weapon. I know that my DH was taught how to shoot a handgun around age 10 and I currently know lots of teens who go hunting with their dads, etc.

Sorry momhappy, our conversation is going around in a ridiculous circle, don't you think? I said, to no one in particular, that I didn't feel sympathy for the instructor, girl or her parents. You responded specifically to me that some of you care because it wasn't just a regular gun accident, but one of extraordinary circumstances. I countered that it wasn't extraordinary, kids shoot all the time at this range according to the owner. First you nit-pick that we don't know if it's all the time because we have a total number, not a time-frame. Also, we don't know how many 9 year olds, just 8 - 18 year olds. When I do a little math to again show these weren't unusual circumstances at all, and mention those birthday parties must be for younger kids, you change the context to fully automatic weapons and widen the realm to everywhere, not just at this range.

Seriously? Look, THIS particular family entertainment venue in Vegas, which by the way is rated wildly high at places like trip advisor and yelp, routinely lets kids from 8-18 shoot fully automatic weapons. It's not unusual AT ALL. Their LOWEST PRICE PACKAGE includes 25 rounds with a machine gun. I know zilch about machine guns, so if they are not included in fully automatic weapons I guess you can nitpick again.

Feel all the sympathy you want - I'm not knocking you for it, your sympathy doesn't cost me anything. I merely said that I don't care about this accident anymore than when I read about all the drunk people that have drowned in Maine this summer. Whatever.

edited to add:
nbcnews.com isn't even calling it an accident - they are using the word "mis-hap."

Maria - I think you missed my point. I'm not here to change your opinions (or to encourage you to feel sympathetic when you don't). It's okay to agree to disagree I'm not nit-picking any more than you are and I haven't changed the context (I have always been referring to fully automatic weapons in my posts). You think that a 9 year-old shooting a fully automatic weapon is the norm and I don't. We are both entitled to our opinions and I didn't think that any of this was personal, so no harm done. I actually appreciate the dialogue, but if you don't, then I apologize for engaging you in the conversation.

No need to apologize, it's my choice to engage or not. FWIW, it's not what I think is the norm or not that is relevant here. At THIS VENUE, it is entirely normal for children between the ages of 8-18 to shoot a fully automatic weapon. This is not nit-picking, it is fact. The owner says so. You can choose to believe that this 9 year old shooting an Uzi at this venue was an extraordinary event if it works better for your paradigm, but the simple fact is that it wasn't an unusual occurrence at this venue.

 

[ericad]

I have a 9 year old daughter. A few weeks ago she asked if she could test out some wings she made by jumping out the window. I said no. So then she asked if she could try from the upstairs stair bannister, because you know, it's not THAT high. No. No you may not. She was super into trying to figure out how to fly, but now she's into survivalism. Mom, can I borrow a lighter and a machete so that I can recreate Naked and Afraid out in the woods? No. The answer is no. Next week she'll be into knife throwing or rolla-bolla or trapeze - who the heck knows? No. The answer is NO!

Kids want to do stuff. My kid is smart and mature but sometimes wants to do stupid $hit and it's my job to protect her, often times from herself.

The owner of B&G put it on the kid - oh she's super mature and wanted to do it. Who gives a crap?! What the kid wanted is irrelevant! I mean Jesus, this is freaking INSANITY. And I do feel really sorry for the child, and think the parents AND range should be brought up on reckless endangerment charges. She is way too young and has been traumatized and forever damaged by her indulgent MORONIC parents and a greedy business owner for what? A photo opp to post on Facebook to show off how trendy you are?

Lunacy. She's a victim here. The adults who were tasked with keeping her safe failed miserably. And the range will continue putting uzis in the hands of children as they worship the almighty dollar. And sales will probably skyrocket to boot.

 

[Gypsy]

I have a 9 year old daughter. A few weeks ago she asked if she could test out some wings she made by jumping out the window. I said no. So then she asked if she could try from the upstairs stair bannister, because you know, it's not THAT high. No. No you may not. She was super into trying to figure out how to fly, but now she's into survivalism. Mom, can I borrow a lighter and a machete so that I can recreate Naked and Afraid out in the woods? No. The answer is no. Next week she'll be into knife throwing or rolla-bolla or trapeze - who the heck knows? No. The answer is NO!

Kids want to do stuff. My kid is smart and mature but sometimes wants to do stupid $hit and it's my job to protect her, often times from herself.

The owner of B&G put it on the kid - oh she's super mature and wanted to do it. Who gives a crap?! What the kid wanted is irrelevant! I mean Jesus, this is freaking INSANITY. And I do feel really sorry for the child, and think the parents AND range should be brought up on reckless endangerment charges. She is way too young and has been traumatized and forever damaged by her indulgent MORONIC parents and a greedy business owner for what? A photo opp to post on Facebook to show off how trendy you are?

Lunacy. She's a victim here. The adults who were tasked with keeping her safe failed miserably. And the range will continue putting uzis in the hands of children as they worship the almighty dollar. And sales will probably skyrocket to boot.

Great post Erica. I vaguely remember being 9. But I remember being 10 very well. There was very little common sense tempering my sense of adventure and I felt invincible. If my parents thought it was safe... I just accepted that. I had no real capacity to know the true possible consequences of my actions, and be able to correctly and responsibly judge risks like this for myself.

There is a REASON that you do not try children as adults when they commit crimes. And that's it. Same applies here. I don't blame the kid. She was being a kid. I do think the parents and the range should be brought up on reckless endangerment charges. And not just because of this little girl. But if there were other minors present, on behalf of those as well!

 

[purplesparklies]

I have a 9 year old daughter. A few weeks ago she asked if she could test out some wings she made by jumping out the window. I said no. So then she asked if she could try from the upstairs stair bannister, because you know, it's not THAT high. No. No you may not. She was super into trying to figure out how to fly, but now she's into survivalism. Mom, can I borrow a lighter and a machete so that I can recreate Naked and Afraid out in the woods? No. The answer is no. Next week she'll be into knife throwing or rolla-bolla or trapeze - who the heck knows? No. The answer is NO!

Kids want to do stuff. My kid is smart and mature but sometimes wants to do stupid $hit and it's my job to protect her, often times from herself.

The owner of B&G put it on the kid - oh she's super mature and wanted to do it. Who gives a crap?! What the kid wanted is irrelevant! I mean Jesus, this is freaking INSANITY. And I do feel really sorry for the child, and think the parents AND range should be brought up on reckless endangerment charges. She is way too young and has been traumatized and forever damaged by her indulgent MORONIC parents and a greedy business owner for what? A photo opp to post on Facebook to show off how trendy you are?

Lunacy. She's a victim here. The adults who were tasked with keeping her safe failed miserably. And the range will continue putting uzis in the hands of children as they worship the almighty dollar. And sales will probably skyrocket to boot.

Your telling of your daughter's desired adventures makes me smile. Very typical 9-year old behavior. When I hear people place blame on this little girl, I can't help but wonder if they even know any children. They are certainly woefully uninformed about child development.

 

[ksinger]

I have a 9 year old daughter. A few weeks ago she asked if she could test out some wings she made by jumping out the window. I said no. So then she asked if she could try from the upstairs stair bannister, because you know, it's not THAT high. No. No you may not. She was super into trying to figure out how to fly, but now she's into survivalism. Mom, can I borrow a lighter and a machete so that I can recreate Naked and Afraid out in the woods? No. The answer is no. Next week she'll be into knife throwing or rolla-bolla or trapeze - who the heck knows? No. The answer is NO!

Kids want to do stuff. My kid is smart and mature but sometimes wants to do stupid $hit and it's my job to protect her, often times from herself.

The owner of B&G put it on the kid - oh she's super mature and wanted to do it. Who gives a crap?! What the kid wanted is irrelevant! I mean Jesus, this is freaking INSANITY. And I do feel really sorry for the child, and think the parents AND range should be brought up on reckless endangerment charges. She is way too young and has been traumatized and forever damaged by her indulgent MORONIC parents and a greedy business owner for what? A photo opp to post on Facebook to show off how trendy you are?

Lunacy. She's a victim here. The adults who were tasked with keeping her safe failed miserably. And the range will continue putting uzis in the hands of children as they worship the almighty dollar. And sales will probably skyrocket to boot.

This. About 1000 times.

And how do you like the phrasing of the owner - all about passing the responsibility to the kid:

"This was a very mature young lady, and something she wanted to do and her parents her treating her," he said of the 9-year-old. "This was something that was high on her bucket list to do, and her parents took her out to do what she was going to do."....."The kids rent a lot of automatic weapons"

First of all, 9 year olds do NOT have a bucket list. Morgan Freeman has a bucket list, a 9 year old has a long life stretching out in front of her.

Second, "her parents took her out to do what she was going to do"??? WTF?? Being nearly 52, 9 years old was a few years ago, but I definitely remember that what I did was NOT what I "was going to do", it was what my mother ALLOWED me to do, end of discussion. And as for the KIDS renting automatic weapons, uh no. For one, no kid has any money that was not given to them by an adult, no means of transportation or food that was not given to them by an adult. And you can't even rent a friggin' car until you're 25! (or it used to be that way)

The phrasing is pretty revealing. The amount of buck-passing to a VERY minor minor, by what I'm certain is one of the drummers of the hardcore personal responsibility crowd, is pretty staggering.

Oh, and I just read the words of the gun range owner to my husband, who at one point during his gun years, did actually run a gun range, and I thought his head was going to explode off his shoulders trying to shake off the deluge of stupid.

 

[MMtwo]

An aside, I asked my S/o tonight at dinner what he thought of the incident. This man is a very strong 2a advocate with many firearms, etc.

He said the gun range and family were idiots. He said that most women he knows (including me and dd) probably don't have the upper body strength needed to comfortably fire an Uzi. A child had no business anywhere around that firearm.

Erica, well said! Nine is a magical time enjoy her fancy flights.

 

[packrat]

London's going to be eleven and she still gets on youtube, convinced she'll find THE spell that will turn her into a mermaid. Just last year when she was ten, she had me feel parts of her leg to check for scales, and I wasn't allowed in the bathroom when she got in the tub to do her spells.

Soooo yeah no. There shalt be no uzi's.

 

[Calliecake]

CBS News had the following:

No charges in fatal gun range shooting involving 9 year old.

There will be no criminal charges filed in connection with the death of the firearms instructor. Sheriff"s office said the shooting is being viewed as an industrial accident.

 

[Karl_K]

An aside, I asked my S/o tonight at dinner what he thought of the incident. This man is a very strong 2a advocate with many firearms, etc.

He said the gun range and family were idiots. He said that most women he knows (including me and dd) probably don't have the upper body strength needed to comfortably fire an Uzi. A child had no business anywhere around that firearm.

Erica, well said! Nine is a magical time enjoy her fancy flights.

I would disagree with him with proper training I bet I could get both of you firing one comfortably and safely in a small amount of time and I haven't fired one in 25+ years.
I was 12 the first time I fired one and have seen younger children shot them well.
It is all about technique and starting slow.

 

[MarionC]

^Well, apparently some of us here care, which is why the thread was started and why some of us have responded. Some of us care because this wasn't just about an accidental shooting, it was a shooting that occurred under extraordinary circumstances, which makes it discussion-worthy. I agree that certain activities carry certain risk, but it doesn't mean that I don't care when people die. What about driving a car? Drive a car and you or someone you love may get hurt or die too, but most of us are sympathetic when someone dies in a car accident...

No matter how stupid/uninformed/unaware the participants in this tragedy were, the event has caused much suffering. It is hard for me to understand people who don't have compassion for human suffering. I commend you for standing your ground, momhappy. You have a good heart.