Can you use a H&A Viewer on Princess Cut stone?

[MidwestDiamondHunter]

Hi everyone,

I came across this thread https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/this-weeks-presentation.58509/ which referenced a video talking about the use of a Hearts and Arrows viewer on a princess cut stone. I don''t believe there is anyway I can view this video now as I believe it was done live.

Could somebody explain the ways in which a H&A viewer could prove useful or entertaining on a princess cut stone?

Thanks

 

[MidwestDiamondHunter]

bump!

 

[MidwestDiamondHunter]

bump! need to know this! any reps from Whiteflash knowledgable on this?

 

[whatmeworry]

I missed the webcast where Paul Slegers talked about it, but I think he uses H&A viewers on princess cuts to help judge optical symmetry. Similar to the use of those viewers on rounds. I think on his website http://www.infinitydiamonds.be/ you can check out how the H&A looks like on princess cuts.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 6/5/2007 4:43:16 PM
Author:MidwestDiamondHunter
Hi everyone,

I came across this thread https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/this-weeks-presentation.58509/ which referenced a video talking about the use of a Hearts and Arrows viewer on a princess cut stone. I don't believe there is anyway I can view this video now as I believe it was done live.

Could somebody explain the ways in which a H&A viewer could prove useful or entertaining on a princess cut stone?

Thanks

It's interesting to put any diamond in the H&A viewer. Just remember it's not a light return device; it displays particulars of cut. In past discussions Paul Slegers has referred to it as a Symmetry & Contrast viewer; 'symmetry' meaning optical symmetry or patterning. We agree with the term since that's the useful info the viewer provides, and shapes other than round don't necessarily show hearts or arrows.

In the pavilion it's easy to see chevron particulars in this view. Just bear in mind that there are many more variables in fancy shapes than in the predictable modern RB, so don't expect to see the optical symmetry you'll find in top rounds and do expect to see variations in the 'looks' of equally well performing but different configurations. Here is just one example (a virtual model which assumes perfect optical symmtery).

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 6/5/2007 6:47:10 PM
Author: whatmeworry
I missed the webcast where Paul Slegers talked about it, but I think he uses H&A viewers on princess cuts to help judge optical symmetry. Similar to the use of those viewers on rounds. I think on his website http://www.infinitydiamonds.be/ you can check out how the H&A looks like on princess cuts.

I tried to find Paul's webinar in the list of past recordings but I don't see it. Maybe he will comment here; he's been taking images of his princess cuts in a viewer for some time.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Sorry for the late reply. I am recovering from a slight jetlag after returning from Vegas, plus taking care of work that piled up on my desk.

John has summed up my theory in a rather clear way. The webinar dates from before the possibility of recording it. But I will definitely re-present the topic one of the next weeks.

Indeed, what we call the Arrows-view in a round, I would like to rephrase as the Contrast-view. After all, the H&A-viewer is a simplified viewing-environment, in which the arrows-view is the same as that of the idealscope and the ASET-scope. Only the resulting look is simplified, and thus in a sense more clear.

The hearts-view is used to judge the symmetry of a stone, whether round or any shape. Therefore, do not look for heart-shapes specifically, but look whether the image you see is symmetrical. In the case of a princess, it is a 4-fold-symmetry, while in a round, it is 8-fold-symmetry.

I have to run, and since I forgot how to upload images, I am going to send copies of actual H&A-pics of stones to Wink, so that he can upload these for me.

Live long,

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 6/6/2007 1:40:19 PM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
Sorry for the late reply. I am recovering from a slight jetlag after returning from Vegas, plus taking care of work that piled up on my desk.

John has summed up my theory in a rather clear way. The webinar dates from before the possibility of recording it. But I will definitely re-present the topic one of the next weeks.

Indeed, what we call the Arrows-view in a round, I would like to rephrase as the Contrast-view. After all, the H&A-viewer is a simplified viewing-environment, in which the arrows-view is the same as that of the idealscope and the ASET-scope. Only the resulting look is simplified, and thus in a sense more clear.

The hearts-view is used to judge the symmetry of a stone, whether round or any shape. Therefore, do not look for heart-shapes specifically, but look whether the image you see is symmetrical. In the case of a princess, it is a 4-fold-symmetry, while in a round, it is 8-fold-symmetry.

I have to run, and since I forgot how to upload images, I am going to send copies of actual H&A-pics of stones to Wink, so that he can upload these for me.

Live long,

Here is one of the images from Paul

 

[WinkHPD]

And here is the other...

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

Oops, file was too big, Paul send smaller files for uploads!

Wink

 

[MidwestDiamondHunter]

Wow, the H&A viewer does give you a great look at the stone! I would definitely like to see the video on this next time it is presented.

Thanks everyone for the info and pics!

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Just thought about this. During the previous presentation, I gave two alternative nicknames for H&A in a princess.

The arrows-view was renamed the Flower-view, and the hearts-view got the name ''the Cross in the Cathedral''.

Live long,

 

[diagem]

Question....

What can i see/judge based on the those images?

 

[WinkHPD]

From the back you can judge the optical symmetry of the stone and from the top you can judge the contrast pattern.

Our eyes are hard wired for contrast and a good contrast pattern can actually make the brilliant portions of the stone seem more brilliant.

Wink

 

[diagem]

Date: 6/8/2007 9:22:51 AM
Author: Wink
From the back you can judge the optical symmetry of the stone and from the top you can judge the contrast pattern.

Our eyes are hard wired for contrast and a good contrast pattern can actually make the brilliant portions of the stone seem more brilliant.

Wink

Yes, I did notice it on the images posted by JohnQ...

But I cant seem to figure optical symmetry on the pavillion side image you posted...
And as far as the contrast pattern on the crown side image...., i dont see a uniform pattern as I usualy see on rounds...


So I am a bit confused...

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 6/8/2007 9:42:10 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 6/8/2007 9:22:51 AM

Author: Wink

From the back you can judge the optical symmetry of the stone and from the top you can judge the contrast pattern.


Our eyes are hard wired for contrast and a good contrast pattern can actually make the brilliant portions of the stone seem more brilliant.


Wink

Yes, I did notice it on the images posted by JohnQ...


But I cant seem to figure optical symmetry on the pavillion side image you posted...

And as far as the contrast pattern on the crown side image...., i dont see a uniform pattern as I usualy see on rounds...



So I am a bit confused...

Well, it shows me that the left/right optical symmetry is slightly skewed with more consistency on the top/bottom patterns. Still, the optical symmetry is good and fairly well balanced.

As for the uniform contrast pattern, this stone has a very nice contrast pattern, but you will not get a hearts and arrows type pattern in a princess, it is not in the nature of the cut to allow this. What we are looking for is a well defined and reasonably well distributed pattern of contrast, which both stones show nicely. Also, remember that this is a static view and that the contrast pattern will flick from facet to facet (or rather from virtual facet to virtual facet) as the stone is moved, which is what allows for the on/off scintillation events that we so love in our diamonds.

Wink

 

[diagem]

Date: 6/8/2007 9:53:43 AM
Author: Wink

Date: 6/8/2007 9:42:10 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 6/8/2007 9:22:51 AM

Author: Wink

From the back you can judge the optical symmetry of the stone and from the top you can judge the contrast pattern.


Our eyes are hard wired for contrast and a good contrast pattern can actually make the brilliant portions of the stone seem more brilliant.


Wink

Yes, I did notice it on the images posted by JohnQ...


But I cant seem to figure optical symmetry on the pavillion side image you posted...

And as far as the contrast pattern on the crown side image...., i dont see a uniform pattern as I usualy see on rounds...



So I am a bit confused...

Well, it shows me that the left/right optical symmetry is slightly skewed with more consistency on the top/bottom patterns. Still, the optical symmetry is good and fairly well balanced.
I agree that the pavillion facets are fairly balance due to my experience seeing these facets..., but the reflective light coming off the faceting (in the image) is showing me a mish-mash in reflections... (again, not as we are used to seeing in the rounds.)

As for the uniform contrast pattern, this stone has a very nice contrast pattern, but you will not get a hearts and arrows type pattern in a princess, it is not in the nature of the cut to allow this. What we are looking for is a well defined and reasonably well distributed pattern of contrast, which both stones show nicely. Also, remember that this is a static view and that the contrast pattern will flick from facet to facet (or rather from virtual facet to virtual facet) as the stone is moved, which is what allows for the on/off scintillation events that we so love in our diamonds.

Yes, I understand the fact that you cannot get a hearts and arrow pattern as in an 8 fold round...
But as Paul stated above..., a princess cut is build of a 4 fold facet division..., I imagine if the princess cut was cut with correct symmetry balance and was a perfect 1: 1 ratio, you would be getting a different H&A pattern to suit the 4 fold...

But it should be a four (fold) mirroring effect..., no?






Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

I will defer to Paul to answer that as I admit to knowing much more about the cutting in rounds than princess cuts.

I am off to a wedding in the mountains of Idaho on the edge of the Lochsa River, about a six hour drive from downtown Boise, to a little piece of Heaven on Earth on the edge of the Selway Bitterroot Wilderness.

I will look forward to seeing the answers you seek when I return.

Wink

 

[diagem]

Date: 6/8/2007 10:46:41 AM
Author: Wink
I will defer to Paul to answer that as I admit to knowing much more about the cutting in rounds than princess cuts.

I am off to a wedding in the mountains of Idaho on the edge of the Lochsa River, about a six hour drive from downtown Boise, to a little piece of Heaven on Earth on the edge of the Selway Bitterroot Wilderness.

I will look forward to seeing the answers you seek when I return.

Wink

Sounds like a dream...

Have a good one,

 

[Finding_Neverland]

Paul didn''t record his presentation, but,.......... Wink came on right after Paul finished his presentation. If I remember correctly, Wink did a couple of views, live, thru an H&A viewer during his presentation.

http://vyou.pricescope.com/player.aspx

Look for a Webinar dated 3/5/2007. Titled "Princess, Infinity, Paul". I think the explanation continues in that recording.