Can a layman distinguish an excellent cut from a very good/good?

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 6/24/2009 2:57:59 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
HI everyone!
John, I don''t feel this is like the difference between a VS and an SI. Anyone interested, if given the choice, and ability, to see the imperfection, would likely pick the cleaner stone ( all other things being equal)
I''m saying that people who can see the difference won''t always pick the stone with the Hearts and Arrows. A percentage will pick well cut stones with larger (60%) tables that don''t do as well on ASET/IS or HCA.
I''m saying it''s not going to be a small percentage of interested people ( ''interested people'' are not just casual observers, but people who love diamonds)- I really do believe it will be around 1/2.
I''m saying that a fair percentage of interested, able viewers won''t like the same thing John or Garry Holliway, or I might prefer.

There is a ''prevailing view'' here on PS. Perfect optical symmetry is ''good'' and light leakage is ''bad''
I feel that the prevailing view here does not take into account people''s taste.

I''ve shown this with two stones that were examined by David Atlas who performed ASET and IS on them. Here''s the thread
The experts on PS agreed that one stone was less well cut based on it''s IS/ASET images.

My position is that the stone shown to be less well cut by the ASET and IS is prettier. My position is that the ''lesser cut'' stone will be chosen by many interested shoppers- people who CAN see the difference.
Many will pick the stone described on PS as ''not as well cut''- this will happen in store lighting, or dim lighting- in ANY lighting.
They will pick it clean, or dirty.
I''m saying the preference they have for a slightly spreadier diamond without hearts and arrows won''t change due to months or years, as David suggests. My preference has not changed over the past 30+years.

Without question, if someone is looking for a stone with perfect optical symmetry, then the tools work very well.
If they want exactly what many people posting here like, the IS and ASET are invaluable.
But not everyone likes heart and arrows. Not everyone that sees what is called ''light leakage'' here on PS sees it as a bad thing.

I agree with you David.

Many people cannot tell with their just their eyes the difference between a very good cut and an AGS 000 cut round brilliant in terms of light performance even in different lighting conditions. I would venture to say in those bright LED lights in many stores more than 50% cannot tell the difference.

Most people don''t care what the diamond looks like under an IS or ASET or even under a loop they care about what it looks like faceup or in their ring.

So when making the choice given similar light properties:

1) They may go for the spreadier stone because that is visible to almost everyone.
2) They may go for the cheaper stone because that everyone notices.

The fact that in most B&M stores the viewing area is under bright lights means a customers ability to see small differences between the two is even further diminished.

However this comparison is only relevant up when comparing two stones with almost identical properties except cut grade which is a rare comparison especially in B&M stores due to availbility. In addition the variation in light performance between a range of Very Good stones and a range of Excellent stones can also be non trivial. For example a lower range excellent can be almost the same optics as a high performing Very Good cut stone.

Regards,
CCL

 

[Sharon101]

Tonight I went out for dinner with some good friends. One of the things that caught my attension was the amazing sparkle on one of my friends marquise eternity bands. I was very happy for my friend because from where I was sitting she could have been wearing the queen`s jewels!!!! I got much pleasure from seeing how gorgeous her ring looked all night as it sparkled away with lots of raingow coloured glitter.

Now, the reason I was sort of ticked pink was that I always felt slightly bad for my friend for having this band as I usually see her in the day. The eternity band is what I would describe as slightly dull compared to a top cut ring. The sort of ring that you wish you could throw in an ultrasonic cleaner or something to try to help it!!! The sort of ring that you probably wouldnt buy if you were knowledgable about diamonds etc.

So for what its worth, this was a real eye opener to me as even though I knew the ring to be sub standard, I could not distinguish it tonight from even the best diamonds that I have seen. Lighting obviously is a huge equalizer & goes a long way in helping out diamonds who need a bit extra!!!!

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 6/27/2009 1:17:57 PM
Author: Sharon101
Tonight I went out for dinner with some good friends. One of the things that caught my attension was the amazing sparkle on one of my friends marquise eternity bands. I was very happy for my friend because from where I was sitting she could have been wearing the queen`s jewels!!!! I got much pleasure from seeing how gorgeous her ring looked all night as it sparkled away with lots of raingow coloured glitter.


Now, the reason I was sort of ticked pink was that I always felt slightly bad for my friend for having this band as I usually see her in the day. The eternity band is what I would describe as slightly dull compared to a top cut ring. The sort of ring that you wish you could throw in an ultrasonic cleaner or something to try to help it!!! The sort of ring that you probably wouldnt buy if you were knowledgable about diamonds etc.


So for what its worth, this was a real eye opener to me as even though I knew the ring to be sub standard, I could not distinguish it tonight from even the best diamonds that I have seen. Lighting obviously is a huge equalizer & goes a long way in helping out diamonds who need a bit extra!!!!

That is the point of a well cut diamond to look great in a wide variety of real world lighting.
I can design a combo for a specific lighting that will blow any random h&a ags0 away in that lighting.
But in other lighting it would not look as good as the h&a ags0.

Cut is a compromise even with the best cuts.
As a matter of fact the difference between many brands is where they put that compromise.
For example Paul picks a slightly different spot than Brian who picks a different spot that 8* who picks a different spot than Isee2.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 6/27/2009 11:22:23 AM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover
I agree with you David.


Many people cannot tell with their just their eyes the difference between a very good cut and an AGS 000 cut round brilliant in terms of light performance even in different lighting conditions. I would venture to say in those bright LED lights in many stores more than 50% cannot tell the difference.



Most people don''t care what the diamond looks like under an IS or ASET or even under a loop they care about what it looks like faceup or in their ring.


So when making the choice given similar light properties:


1) They may go for the spreadier stone because that is visible to almost everyone.

2) They may go for the cheaper stone because that everyone notices.


The fact that in most B&M stores the viewing area is under bright lights means a customers ability to see small differences between the two is even further diminished.


However this comparison is only relevant up when comparing two stones with almost identical properties except cut grade which is a rare comparison especially in B&M stores due to availbility. In addition the variation in light performance between a range of Very Good stones and a range of Excellent stones can also be non trivial. For example a lower range excellent can be almost the same optics as a high performing Very Good cut stone.


Regards,

CCL

Most people don''t know about the trick lighting and many people do not know the impact of lighting and the compromise that goes into every cut diamond.
If they saw them in multiple lighting many more would realize the difference.
Most people when they view their diamond on the finger will move it around until it looks the best then be happy.
They don''t know that there are diamonds out there that you don''t have to hold your hand just so to make them pretty.
The impact of led lighting on being able to compare diamonds is far higher than 50%.
They can make frozen spit sparkle and have little relevance to the real world.

 

[Sharon101]

Date: 6/27/2009 1:29:53 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 6/27/2009 1:17:57 PM
Author: Sharon101
Tonight I went out for dinner with some good friends. One of the things that caught my attension was the amazing sparkle on one of my friends marquise eternity bands. I was very happy for my friend because from where I was sitting she could have been wearing the queen`s jewels!!!! I got much pleasure from seeing how gorgeous her ring looked all night as it sparkled away with lots of raingow coloured glitter.


Now, the reason I was sort of ticked pink was that I always felt slightly bad for my friend for having this band as I usually see her in the day. The eternity band is what I would describe as slightly dull compared to a top cut ring. The sort of ring that you wish you could throw in an ultrasonic cleaner or something to try to help it!!! The sort of ring that you probably wouldnt buy if you were knowledgable about diamonds etc.


So for what its worth, this was a real eye opener to me as even though I knew the ring to be sub standard, I could not distinguish it tonight from even the best diamonds that I have seen. Lighting obviously is a huge equalizer & goes a long way in helping out diamonds who need a bit extra!!!!

That is the point of a well cut diamond to look great in a wide variety of real world lighting.
I can design a combo for a specific lighting that will blow any random h&a ags0 away in that lighting.
But in other lighting it would not look as good as the h&a ags0.

Cut is a compromise even with the best cuts.
As a matter of fact the difference between many brands is where they put that compromise.
For example Paul picks a slightly different spot than Brian who picks a different spot that 8* who picks a different spot than Isee2.

Storm, learning about diamonds from experts like yourself just keeps getting bettewr and better. Thank you for explaining that about the sort of `sweet spot` for a particular diamond to look its absolute best.

For my friend, if she only ever wore her ring at night, one would think she has the best taste in diamonds imaginable.

And I do understand that a well cut diamond will have better mileage across different lighting conditions and that means being a better performer overall.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 6/27/2009 1:49:57 PM
Author: Sharon101

Storm, learning about diamonds from experts like yourself just keeps getting bettewr and better. Thank you for explaining that about the sort of `sweet spot` for a particular diamond to look its absolute best.


For my friend, if she only ever wore her ring at night, one would think she has the best taste in diamonds imaginable.


And I do understand that a well cut diamond will have better mileage across different lighting conditions and that means being a better performer overall.

Your welcome.

What is really kewl to think about is in the old days when only royalty and the very rich owned diamonds they had jewelery for specific occasions.
I would suppose that is true even today in some circles.
Now imagine having designed an entire set to look best just for that occasion and having it made.
Then picture me designing the diamonds for the set and the look on my face :}
That is one of my happy place daydreams when I get stressed.

 

[Lula]

Here is my shopping list (assuming I get to the point where I can buy a diamond for specific occaisions!)

An OEC or one of Rhino's chunky cushions for sitting by the fire or eating dinner by candelight.

One of Storm's custom cut asschers for those evenings when I'd like something different, but equally captivating, to wear in low light.

One of Storm's custom asschers or a well-cut emerald cut diamond to wear outside on a sunny day so I can flash giant bars of rainbow light across the picnic table.

One of Paul's Infinity's to wear in incandescent or office lighting for its crisp contrast and great dispersion.

An 8* to wear in a dimmly lit restaurant so I can admire the mix of "fat" flash and pinpoint flash.

A RB with long lower girdle facets to wear when I want maximum pinpoint flash and scintillation (I could get a well-cut princess for this purpose, too).

My 60/60 from my first marriage that I and my friends thought was immense (for its ct. weight) for those situations when size counts!

I haven't seen an HOF outside of jewelry store lighting, or an ACA or a Solafsera or a Star 129 or one of Brian Gavin's diamonds in person, but perhaps owners of those stones could chime in about their favorite lighting conditions for those stones****?

****This is not to imply that the well-cut stones on this list won't outshine a poorly cut stone across many more lighting conditions!! My disclaimer!!

This thread has brought up one of the most difficult things about online shopping vs. viewing several stones side by side at the local B&M, and that is, how to judge from the photos/specs how and in what light conditions will this stone outperform other diamonds in the room? Because I too have been in several lighting conditions where every diamond in the room is sparkling brightly, and I know that they're not all ideal cut.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 6/27/2009 6:24:54 PM
Author: sarap333
Here is my shopping list (assuming I get to the point where I can buy a diamond for specific occaisions!)


An OEC or one of Rhino''s chunky cushions for sitting by the fire or eating dinner by candelight.


One of Storm''s custom cut asschers for those evenings when I''d like something different, but equally captivating, to wear in low light.


One of Storm''s custom asschers or a well-cut emerald cut diamond to wear outside on a sunny day so I can flash giant bars of rainbow light across the picnic table.


One of Paul''s Infinity''s to wear in incandescent or office lighting for its crisp contrast and great dispersion. or ACA, BGD, Isee2 or other precision h&a


An 8* to wear in a dimmly lit restaurant so I can admire the mix of ''fat'' flash and pinpoint flash.


A RB with long lower girdle facets to wear when I want maximum pinpoint flash and scintillation (I could get a well-cut princess for this purpose, too). Solafsera or a Star 129 even more so


My 60/60 from my first marriage that I and my friends thought was immense (for its ct. weight) for those situations when size counts!


I haven''t seen an HOF outside of jewelry store lighting, or an ACA or a Solafsera or a Star 129 or one of Brian Gavin''s diamonds in person, but perhaps owners of those stones could chime in about their favorite lighting conditions for those stones****?


****This is not to imply that the well-cut stones on this list won''t outshine a poorly cut stone across many more lighting conditions!! My disclaimer!!


This thread has brought up one of the most difficult things about online shopping vs. viewing several stones side by side at the local B&M, and that is, how to judge from the photos/specs how and in what light conditions will this stone outperform other diamonds in the room? Because I too have been in several lighting conditions where every diamond in the room is sparkling brightly, and I know that they''re not all ideal cut.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 6/26/2009 7:30:42 PM
Author: Dancing Fire
but Rich...as a consumer why should we take a chance of buying a 'fair or good' GIA graded stone over the internet when there are many VG and Ex graded to choose from?

I know, it's a dilemna, isn't it?

My misgiving is that perfectly fine diamonds being sold at appropriate prices are being "dissed" here because of the prevailing bias towards ideal cuts on Pricescope.

There's nothing wrong about having a bias towards ideal cuts of course. I just wish that somehow this bias was more evident to the consumer.

An analogy might be to compare the ideal cut market to the fine Japanese automobile market, let's use Lexus as an example. Great looks, excellent mechanics and build quality.

Let's say someone though prefers to buy a larger, flashier Cadillac, for less money. They like how it looks, they like how it feels when they sit in it, something about the car satisfies their soul, and they buy it. They're perfectly happy with their purchase.

But then they see this car forum which seems to be on top of the car market, and has many people speaking with confident knowledge on what is the best car to buy, and isn't readily identifiable as a "Lexus" forum. When the Cadillac buyer makes a post of their purchase which they are so proud of, they are told to their dismay that they chose an inferior product, and should have bought a Lexus instead.

You see what I mean? Cadillac is a perfectly fine car, with it's own perfectly fine features, which sells at an appropriate price. For the entire Caddillac market to be dissed as "inferior" just doesn't seem like a balanced point of view.

I don't have a solution, I'm just airing my misgivings. The truth is there are a multitude of "sub-ideal cut" diamonds which are beautiful stones at appealing prices that the average consumer can't tell the difference from an ideal cut with their naked eye.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 6/28/2009 12:37:56 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood

Date: 6/26/2009 7:30:42 PM
Author: Dancing Fire
but Rich...as a consumer why should we take a chance of buying a 'fair or good' GIA graded stone over the internet when there are many VG and Ex graded to choose from?

I know, it's a dilemna, isn't it?

My misgiving is that perfectly fine diamonds being sold at appropriate prices are being 'dissed' here because of the prevailing bias towards ideal cuts on Pricescope.

There's nothing wrong about having a bias towards ideal cuts of course. I just wish that somehow this bias was more evident to the consumer.

An analogy might be to compare the ideal cut market to the fine Japanese automobile market, let's use Lexus as an example. Great looks, excellent mechanics and build quality.

Let's say someone though prefers to buy a larger, flashier Cadillac, for less money. They like how it looks, they like how it feels when they sit in it, something about the car satisfies their soul, and they buy it. They're perfectly happy with their purchase.

But then they see this car forum which seems to be on top of the car market, and has many people speaking with confident knowledge on what is the best car to buy, and isn't readily identifiable as a 'Lexus' forum. When the Cadillac buyer makes a post of their purchase which they are so proud of, they are told to their dismay that they chose an inferior product, and should have bought a Lexus instead.

You see what I mean? Cadillac is a perfectly fine car, with it's own perfectly fine features, which sells at an appropriate price. For the entire Caddillac market to be dissed as 'inferior' just doesn't seem like a balanced point of view.

I don't have a solution, I'm just airing my misgivings. The truth is there are a multitude of 'sub-ideal cut' diamonds which are beautiful stones at appealing prices that the average consumer can't tell the difference from an ideal cut with their naked eye.

I agree with what you are saying Rich and understand perfectly. It is a trap we don't want to fall into IMO too, sometimes consumers do appear to forget that images - yes are useful - but aren't the be all and end all, these people might have only ever bought or seen one diamond and tend to forget that we are talking about tiny pieces of rock where images can sometimes exaggerate perceived ' flaws' which might not even be a concern in reality, a balance is needed and I think it is something that needs addressing - and I take this on board myself also. It worries me too seeing perfectly good stones being dismissed by some who are very new to diamonds, put yourself in a position where you are offering advice and you need to try to do so responsibly and to keep an open mind. I would hate to see a sort of elitism develop a big foothold here within RT, where unless a diamond is of the highest cut standards it is automatically dismissed because of some slight ' flaw' in an image, otherwise this is going to scare off posters who don't always want a top cut and finish stone, where does that leave those who have other priorities...So personally I feel this issue tends to come and go and now and then it is a good thing to remind us so we can best serve those who come here looking for advice. As time has moved on and there have been dedicated long term PSers like myself in RT, we need to reassess to see if we are moving in the right direction, new posters come along and now and then the line between expert and consumer advisor is blurred so we need to also try to make sure newbies know where the advice is coming from. After all, anyone can sign up and immediately start advising so for the sake of the new buyer they understand who has the practical experience and expertise and who does not, weigh carefully all advice given and decide what makes the best sense to them.

 

[strmrdr]

Richard there is a lot less of that going on than in the past.
Remember in the old days the drag out wars over 34.8/40.8/79%lgf and 34/41/80%lgf?
Not happening today both are acknowledged to be fine combos if cut right.
Or the 35/41 debate?
Which we now know comes down to lgf% because of my research and teaching.

http://journal.pricescope.com/Articles/68/1/Do-the-pavilion-mains-drive-light-return-in-the-modern-round-brilliant.aspx

I am a firm believer in explaining the diamond and letting the consumer decide.
That means pointing out the good the bad and the questionable.
As we have grown and our pro-sumers have gained knowledge it has moved in that direction.
Is it perfect? not yet because there is not universal agreement on what is good/bad and questionable but it is better than it was.

 

[oldminer]

Rich;

The analogy with Lexus and Cadillac was excellent and well stated. What I see that does not fit the analogy is that diamonds are promarily a natural product, all a bit individual even after being perfectly cut. The Caddy and the Lexus are made on assembly lines and every one of them, equipped the same, is the same (or so we are forced to believe). There are lemons in both brands, of course.

A "smart" diamond buyer who will commit to making a relatively blind purchase over the Internet tends to go for "least risk" and take the arguably "finest" cut that is so often discussed here and elsewhere. While there may be no real need for such an uncompromising strategy in the real world of physical shopping, it is a very comfortable and even a very smart approach for actually committing to make a purchase via the Net.

The majority of shoppers who visit Pricescope and shoppers overall, still make their purchase of a diamond in an actual store or face to face with a seller. This is when the risk of making a dumb mistake decreases because the buyer has a direct opportunity to look at the individual diamond, compare it to others and to see how much difference they can see between a super-fine cut, a very good and/or average cut. We must assume the seller is being honest about how they represent their diamonds and this always is an issue. You can''t take some elements of risk out of the equation. However, knowledge is powerful in preventing or mitigating potential mistakes.

In the end, what passes as excellent advice for buyers of on-line diamonds, is not identically as excellent for buyers of diamond who determine they will shop in person. Each buyer must qualify themselves as to how they plan to make their purchase and how they will approach the issue of cut quality. You can choose to approach cut quality by being absolute at wanting the best or willing to compromise provided that you personally can understand what you are giving up by seeing it in person. It all makes good sense, I believe.

 

[Moh 10]

This is a weird topic.
If a person prefers to buy a non-ideal cut I guess I should respect his/her right to do so.
Respecting diversity is always good.
Snobbery is bad.

But let's not forget that cut education is a legitimate thing.
IMHO it is an essential thing since diamonds are sooo expensive and how they look depends so much on cut.

If a person get educated about how better cut improves appearance THEN still opts for a non-ideal cut [perhaps to get larger size for their money], then so be it.
At least they made an informed decision.

But telling buyer with no cut-education to just buy what looks good to him/her [and don't bother with all those cut evaluation tools] is wrong, also to imply that lower-quality cut diamonds are for lay people is like reverse snobbery.

I understand that a vendor of non-ideal cut diamonds must find cut education to be very annoying.
Cut education must reduce their sales.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 6/28/2009 3:50:38 PM
Author: Moh 10
This is a weird topic.
If a person prefers to buy a non-ideal cut I guess I should respect his/her right to do so.
Respecting diversity is always good.
Snobbery is bad.

But let's not forget that cut education is a legitimate thing.
IMHO it is an essential thing since diamonds are sooo expensive and how they look depends so much on cut.

If a person get educated about how better cut improves appearance THEN still opts for a non-ideal cut [perhaps to get larger size for their money], then so be it.
At least they made an informed decision.

But telling buyer with no cut-education to just buy what looks good to you him/her is wrong, though I understand that a vendor of non-ideal cut diamonds prefer this approach.
Cut education reduces their sales.

I don't think thats the issue, a concern is that some perfectly good diamonds that also have excellent supporting images such as Idealscope and ASET can sometimes be dismissed as lacking due to some small imperfection, regardless of the fact that the diamond in reality is highly likely to be beautiful - good proportions and finish and so on. That is the danger that some can be scared off stones which could be excellent choices. I am not talking about rubbish cuts here at all, but very well cut diamonds which might not be quite perfect but you would never notice this in reality.

Of course cut education is a legitimate thing, I certainly believe it is otherwise I wouldn't spend the huge amount of time here that I do trying to educate others, what I am trying to say is there has to be a balance. Not everyone is looking for perfection, we try to find out what the buyer wants and steer them in the right direction letting them know their options of course and encouraging them to view diamonds of known cut quality in person so they can see the difference cut makes. It is not an easy path for the Pricescope pro-sumer to walk, and it is very difficult to do it well but we try! This place has grown so much in the years I have been here that the role of pro-sumer is ever changing, diamond buyers now have more knowledge at their fingertips and are utilising it so they know what their options are better than ever, we need to try to cater for everyone regardless of what they are looking for. Also I notice these days because of the vast amount of information on cut and everything else related to diamonds, there are a considerable amount of posters who link some incredible diamond for critique and have everything pretty much down pat, all they need is reassurance that yes you have some great choices there and away they go. This wasn't the case that I remember a few short years ago, with most posters you had to start from scratch, so we have to cater for super informed consumers as well nowadays as well as those who are very new to diamonds.

It is important to really take a good hard look at the way RT is going every so often, consider the advice being given and how legitimate it is, if not what we need to do to improve. We always need to have that uppermost in our minds, and I believe we are only as good as our last post. Yes always explain what their options are but treat the diamond buying posters and their needs as individuals. Also there are different levels of cut which can still make a beautiful diamond, it doesn't always have to be perfect h&a AGS0 as the only choice for a pretty stone.

It would appear from the positive feedback we often get that we are doing a good job, but it is beneficial to review every so often to make sure we are providing good usable and relevant help to those who come here seeking advice.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 6/28/2009 3:50:38 PM
Author: Moh 10
This is a weird topic.

If a person prefers to buy a non-ideal cut I guess I should respect his/her right to do so.

Respecting diversity is always good.

Snobbery is bad.


But let''s not forget that cut education is a legitimate thing.

IMHO it is an essential thing since diamonds are sooo expensive and how they look depends so much on cut.


If a person get educated about how better cut improves appearance THEN still opts for a non-ideal cut [perhaps to get larger size for their money], then so be it.

At least they made an informed decision.


But telling buyer with no cut-education to just buy what looks good to him/her [and don''t bother with all those cut evaluation tools] is wrong, also to imply that lower-quality cut diamonds are for lay people is like reverse snobbery.


I understand that a vendor of non-ideal cut diamonds must find cut education to be very annoying.

Cut education must reduce their sales.

Well said.
Helping someone make an informed decision should be the goal of every pro-sumer and expert on PS.
For the most part it is.

 

[Moh 10]

Another reason to encourage "laymen" to learn about better cut is they may be happy TODAY with a soso-cut diamond but we often read about owners of soso-cut diamonds wanting an upgrade after finally seeing a well-cut diamond.

Buying a keeper to begin with saves them money in the long run.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 6/28/2009 3:50:38 PM
Author: Moh 10
This is a weird topic.
If a person prefers to buy a non-ideal cut I guess I should respect his/her right to do so.
Respecting diversity is always good.
Snobbery is bad.

But let''s not forget that cut education is a legitimate thing.
IMHO it is an essential thing since diamonds are sooo expensive and how they look depends so much on cut.

If a person get educated about how better cut improves appearance THEN still opts for a non-ideal cut [perhaps to get larger size for their money], then so be it.
At least they made an informed decision.

But telling buyer with no cut-education to just buy what looks good to him/her [and don''t bother with all those cut evaluation tools] is wrong, also to imply that lower-quality cut diamonds are for lay people is like reverse snobbery.

I understand that a vendor of non-ideal cut diamonds must find cut education to be very annoying.
Cut education must reduce their sales.

Moh''s - yes snobbery goes against an open discussion.
Respecting diversity is a great thing.
I''m glad you pointed those facts out- and wish that more people posting would behave in such a manner.

You mentioned "cut education"- is there only one method of understanding cut?
Is it possible that maximum light return does not always equal the most attractive stone to all shoppers interested in a really well cut stone?
Is it possible that there''s different ways to educate people about well cut diamonds without using ASET or IS?
Are there ways of selecting diamonds that may produce different - yet equally as valid results using different methods?

Isn''t classifying anyone who may disagree with aspects of the "cut education" you speak of as someone who does not love well cut diamonds a form of snobbery?
Is it ok to lob insults at someone just because they see things differently?

Doesn''t diversity mean respecting different points of view?



Richard- thank you thank you thank you for speaking your mind as a tradesperson who LOVES well cut diamonds, but does not fel the only way to get to that end is what''s described on PS.

 

[Sharon101]

Date: 6/28/2009 4:52:29 PM
Author: Moh 10
Another reason to encourage ''laymen'' to learn about better cut is they may be happy TODAY with a soso-cut diamond but we often read about owners of soso-cut diamonds wanting an upgrade after finally seeing a well-cut diamond.

Buying a keeper to begin with saves them money in the long run.

I think you will find that most upgrades involve size increases as a primary motivation.

The discussion here specifically involves diamonds that do compete well with excellent cuts. We are discussing diamonds that most people couldnt tell apart from their more expensive siblings. If someone owns a diamond that performs spectacularly it is unlikely that they would want to upgrade it because of numbers on a paper.

The discussion about diamonds that do look inferior is a whole other topic.

As consumers and trade there are many of us who do know that a diamond can miss out on the numbers to be top...but still look spectacular and second to none irl. And we know that irl the differences between a whole host of different cuts can be difficult to view for the average person as oppossed to this great difference you refer to.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 6/30/2009 2:41:45 AM
Author: Sharon101

Date: 6/28/2009 4:52:29 PM
Author: Moh 10
Another reason to encourage ''laymen'' to learn about better cut is they may be happy TODAY with a soso-cut diamond but we often read about owners of soso-cut diamonds wanting an upgrade after finally seeing a well-cut diamond.

Buying a keeper to begin with saves them money in the long run.

I think you will find that most upgrades involve size increases as a primary motivation.

The discussion here specifically involves diamonds that do compete well with excellent cuts. We are discussing diamonds that most people couldnt tell apart from their more expensive siblings. If someone owns a diamond that performs spectacularly it is unlikely that they would want to upgrade it because of numbers on a paper.

The discussion about diamonds that do look inferior is a whole other topic.

As consumers and trade there are many of us who do know that a diamond can miss out on the numbers to be top...but still look spectacular and second to none irl. And we know that irl the differences between a whole host of different cuts can be difficult to view for the average person as oppossed to this great difference you refer to.

Absolutely. Sometimes it just isn''t that cut and dried.

 

[Sharon101]

Date: 6/30/2009 4:03:05 AM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 6/30/2009 2:41:45 AM
Author: Sharon101

Date: 6/28/2009 4:52:29 PM
Author: Moh 10
Another reason to encourage ''laymen'' to learn about better cut is they may be happy TODAY with a soso-cut diamond but we often read about owners of soso-cut diamonds wanting an upgrade after finally seeing a well-cut diamond.

Buying a keeper to begin with saves them money in the long run.

I think you will find that most upgrades involve size increases as a primary motivation.

The discussion here specifically involves diamonds that do compete well with excellent cuts. We are discussing diamonds that most people couldnt tell apart from their more expensive siblings. If someone owns a diamond that performs spectacularly it is unlikely that they would want to upgrade it because of numbers on a paper.

The discussion about diamonds that do look inferior is a whole other topic.

As consumers and trade there are many of us who do know that a diamond can miss out on the numbers to be top...but still look spectacular and second to none irl. And we know that irl the differences between a whole host of different cuts can be difficult to view for the average person as oppossed to this great difference you refer to.

Absolutely. Sometimes it just isn''t that cut and dried.

Thanks Lorelei. It means alot to me that you can understand what I mean.

I wanted to add that with the different lighting conditions around these days, its even harder to see what you are looking at!!!! Sort of like beer goggles but for diamonds ! Heck, even the diamontes on my outfit could pass as ideal cuts!!!! So although top cuts might perform better across the board....the gal who sacrificed size for extreem top cut might not be so excited meeting the size gal at night in the casino who would still have a disco ball on her hand but much bigger.

And to confirm I have nothing against getting the best, I love the best in anything as much as the next person, and I believe that having knowledge is important. And if I was buying over the net sight unseen I would probably stick to the strategy of only going for top cuts or near top cuts.

 

[Lorelei]

I do understand Sharon and although a few jaws might drop when I say this

, its the truth! Personally I would sacrifice on cut * a bit* in some cases to get extra size. I love size and want as much of it in possible in my diamonds. Now I would not go out and buy a shallow pancake of a diamond to get a lot more spread, no way. But as long as the angles work harmoniously and the depth is good, I would go for a larger table and good for polish and symmetry. A nice make of cut is fine for me, yes I have seen top cuts and their beauty but in order to get the size I want, often something has to give. I do know what I am doing however and where a compromise can be safely made without visual sacrifice or much of it. This is why I try to keep an open mind in order to help those that have other priorities. With the top cuts and their very often perfect images it is easy to tell quickly that these are cut to top standards, to be able to help those who want something different it is a case of working with them to try to find a diamond where a compromise won't result in much of a visual sacrifice depending on what they want. This is easier working online with vendor supplied images, difficult with those who prefer to buy from a store where we don't have much info, but we do our best to help everyone.

 

[strmrdr]

A pro-sumer when shopping for themselves is in a vastly different position than when advising others.
For example good/good polish/sym. can vary from not an issue to eye visible.
You know what lighting you are in day to day.
Top cuts are simply a safe bet across a wide range of lighting conditions.
Where to draw the line is the hard part.
My line with a RB when advising others is excellent looking IS/ASET, decent optical symmetry and a combo that has few visible limitations in a variety of lighting.
VG/VG polish/symmetry or better to avoid the possibility of pitfalls.
If that doesn''t get them where they want to be then other sacrifices can be discussed.
If they can get a top end diamond for their budget in the size range they want that is the safest bet.
It is not a good idea to gamble with others money unless they ask you to and understand what is happening.
The odds of happiness over a wide variety of lighting are best with the best cuts.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 6/30/2009 10:00:22 AM
Author: strmrdr
A pro-sumer when shopping for themselves is in a vastly different position than when advising others.
For example good/good polish/sym. can vary from not an issue to eye visible.
You know what lighting you are in day to day.
Top cuts are simply a safe bet across a wide range of lighting conditions.
Where to draw the line is the hard part.
My line with a RB when advising others is excellent looking IS/ASET, decent optical symmetry and a combo that has few visible limitations in a variety of lighting.
VG/VG polish/symmetry or better to avoid the possibility of pitfalls.
If that doesn't get them where they want to be then other sacrifices can be discussed.
If they can get a top end diamond for their budget in the size range they want that is the safest bet.
It is not a good idea to gamble with others money unless they ask you to and understand what is happening.
The odds of happiness over a wide variety of lighting are best with the best cuts.

Exactly.

Also you know me better than that stormy, I never gamble with other people's money when advising and I try to deter others from doing so, if anything I always take the safer path. I am well aware probably far more than most at the type of money thats at stake here from helping in RT for years now, and I take the trust consumers put in me very seriously - which has been earned over a long period, like yours. I very rarely say ' yes you should buy that diamond' even if a poster tries to push me to tell them what to do, I don't want to take the responsibility as I want them to think it through for themselves, give them the tools they need so they can decide from there. The ultimate choice to purchase has to come from them, as always explain what the options are so they can make an informed decision.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 6/30/2009 10:07:51 AM
Author: Lorelei


Exactly.


Also you know me better than that stormy, I never gamble with other people's money when advising and I try to deter others from doing so, if anything I always take the safer path. I am well aware probably far more than most at the type of money thats at stake here from helping in RT for years now, and I take the trust consumers put in me very seriously - which has been earned over a long period, like yours. I very rarely say ' yes you should buy that diamond' even if a poster tries to push me to tell them what to do, I don't want to take the responsibility as I want them to think it through for themselves, give them the tools they need so they can decide from there. The ultimate choice to purchase has to come from them, as always explain what the options are so they can make an informed decision.

I didn't mean to imply that you did and don't think that you do.
I was making a statement in general and explaining a little of what I do.
I didn't quote you to make that distinction clear, guess I should have been more clear.
My apologies.
I greatly admire the way you handle yourself here and the help you provide.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 6/30/2009 10:21:27 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 6/30/2009 10:07:51 AM
Author: Lorelei


Exactly.


Also you know me better than that stormy, I never gamble with other people''s money when advising and I try to deter others from doing so, if anything I always take the safer path. I am well aware probably far more than most at the type of money thats at stake here from helping in RT for years now, and I take the trust consumers put in me very seriously - which has been earned over a long period, like yours. I very rarely say '' yes you should buy that diamond'' even if a poster tries to push me to tell them what to do, I don''t want to take the responsibility as I want them to think it through for themselves, give them the tools they need so they can decide from there. The ultimate choice to purchase has to come from them, as always explain what the options are so they can make an informed decision.

I didn''t mean to imply that you did and don''t think that you do.
I was making a statement in general and explaining a little of what I do.
I didn''t quote you to make that distinction clear, guess I should have been more clear.
My apologies.
I greatly admire the way you handle yourself here and the help you provide.

Whew!! Just wanted to check, your opinion of what I do and friendship is VERY important to me!! Thanks pal!

 

[Sharon101]

Date: 6/30/2009 10:23:59 AM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 6/30/2009 10:21:27 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 6/30/2009 10:07:51 AM
Author: Lorelei


Exactly.


Also you know me better than that stormy, I never gamble with other people''s money when advising and I try to deter others from doing so, if anything I always take the safer path. I am well aware probably far more than most at the type of money thats at stake here from helping in RT for years now, and I take the trust consumers put in me very seriously - which has been earned over a long period, like yours. I very rarely say '' yes you should buy that diamond'' even if a poster tries to push me to tell them what to do, I don''t want to take the responsibility as I want them to think it through for themselves, give them the tools they need so they can decide from there. The ultimate choice to purchase has to come from them, as always explain what the options are so they can make an informed decision.

I didn''t mean to imply that you did and don''t think that you do.
I was making a statement in general and explaining a little of what I do.
I didn''t quote you to make that distinction clear, guess I should have been more clear.
My apologies.
I greatly admire the way you handle yourself here and the help you provide.

Whew!! Just wanted to check, your opinion of what I do and friendship is VERY important to me!! Thanks pal!

If and when I am lucky enough to ever buy another diamond I would consider it a huge honour to revieve your opinion on it!!!!

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 6/27/2009 1:49:57 PM
Author: Sharon101

Date: 6/27/2009 1:29:53 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 6/27/2009 1:17:57 PM
Author: Sharon101
Tonight I went out for dinner with some good friends. One of the things that caught my attension was the amazing sparkle on one of my friends marquise eternity bands. I was very happy for my friend because from where I was sitting she could have been wearing the queen`s jewels!!!! I got much pleasure from seeing how gorgeous her ring looked all night as it sparkled away with lots of raingow coloured glitter.


Now, the reason I was sort of ticked pink was that I always felt slightly bad for my friend for having this band as I usually see her in the day. The eternity band is what I would describe as slightly dull compared to a top cut ring. The sort of ring that you wish you could throw in an ultrasonic cleaner or something to try to help it!!! The sort of ring that you probably wouldnt buy if you were knowledgable about diamonds etc.


So for what its worth, this was a real eye opener to me as even though I knew the ring to be sub standard, I could not distinguish it tonight from even the best diamonds that I have seen. Lighting obviously is a huge equalizer & goes a long way in helping out diamonds who need a bit extra!!!!

That is the point of a well cut diamond to look great in a wide variety of real world lighting.
I can design a combo for a specific lighting that will blow any random h&a ags0 away in that lighting.
But in other lighting it would not look as good as the h&a ags0.

Cut is a compromise even with the best cuts.
As a matter of fact the difference between many brands is where they put that compromise.
For example Paul picks a slightly different spot than Brian who picks a different spot that 8* who picks a different spot than Isee2.

Storm, learning about diamonds from experts like yourself just keeps getting bettewr and better. Thank you for explaining that about the sort of `sweet spot` for a particular diamond to look its absolute best.

For my friend, if she only ever wore her ring at night, one would think she has the best taste in diamonds imaginable.

And I do understand that a well cut diamond will have better mileage across different lighting conditions and that means being a better performer overall.

Sharon a by product of the lighting we have planned for Next Diamond is that night time diamonds will be possible.
Imagine the niche for low color lower clarity goods that can be made to sparkle like your friends at night time - therefore we can have affordable jewelry for evening wear.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 6/28/2009 12:37:56 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood

Date: 6/26/2009 7:30:42 PM
Author: Dancing Fire
but Rich...as a consumer why should we take a chance of buying a ''fair or good'' GIA graded stone over the internet when there are many VG and Ex graded to choose from?

I know, it''s a dilemna, isn''t it?

My misgiving is that perfectly fine diamonds being sold at appropriate prices are being ''dissed'' here because of the prevailing bias towards ideal cuts on Pricescope.

There''s nothing wrong about having a bias towards ideal cuts of course. I just wish that somehow this bias was more evident to the consumer.

An analogy might be to compare the ideal cut market to the fine Japanese automobile market, let''s use Lexus as an example. Great looks, excellent mechanics and build quality.

Let''s say someone though prefers to buy a larger, flashier Cadillac, for less money. They like how it looks, they like how it feels when they sit in it, something about the car satisfies their soul, and they buy it. They''re perfectly happy with their purchase.

But then they see this car forum which seems to be on top of the car market, and has many people speaking with confident knowledge on what is the best car to buy, and isn''t readily identifiable as a ''Lexus'' forum. When the Cadillac buyer makes a post of their purchase which they are so proud of, they are told to their dismay that they chose an inferior product, and should have bought a Lexus instead.

You see what I mean? Cadillac is a perfectly fine car, with it''s own perfectly fine features, which sells at an appropriate price. For the entire Caddillac market to be dissed as ''inferior'' just doesn''t seem like a balanced point of view.

I don''t have a solution, I''m just airing my misgivings. The truth is there are a multitude of ''sub-ideal cut'' diamonds which are beautiful stones at appealing prices that the average consumer can''t tell the difference from an ideal cut with their naked eye.

ahem, clears throat, fidgets nervously........Ladies and Rich, at the risk of seriously damaging my retail brand, I buy and sell diamonds and could not give a tinkers cuss about what this or that lab thinks about the stone.


If I believe it is a color lower of clarity grade lower, and I like the stone, and I can negotiate with the cutter manufacturer (who usually is also usually better at grading than the salaried staff at the lab, and knows the stone was sent to 2 or 3 labs anyway before I was shown the softest paper) then the stone is mine and sold at what it is.


I am in the diamond loving business. If it is a beautiful diamond, with GIA good symmetry, a durable girdle, no opens on the crown side, Very strong blue, but not milky and not yellowish in any other light, then the baby is mine for one of my lovely customers.

 

[Sharon101]

Date: 7/1/2009 6:56:44 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 6/27/2009 1:49:57 PM
Author: Sharon101

Date: 6/27/2009 1:29:53 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 6/27/2009 1:17:57 PM
Author: Sharon101
Tonight I went out for dinner with some good friends. One of the things that caught my attension was the amazing sparkle on one of my friends marquise eternity bands. I was very happy for my friend because from where I was sitting she could have been wearing the queen`s jewels!!!! I got much pleasure from seeing how gorgeous her ring looked all night as it sparkled away with lots of raingow coloured glitter.


Now, the reason I was sort of ticked pink was that I always felt slightly bad for my friend for having this band as I usually see her in the day. The eternity band is what I would describe as slightly dull compared to a top cut ring. The sort of ring that you wish you could throw in an ultrasonic cleaner or something to try to help it!!! The sort of ring that you probably wouldnt buy if you were knowledgable about diamonds etc.


So for what its worth, this was a real eye opener to me as even though I knew the ring to be sub standard, I could not distinguish it tonight from even the best diamonds that I have seen. Lighting obviously is a huge equalizer & goes a long way in helping out diamonds who need a bit extra!!!!

That is the point of a well cut diamond to look great in a wide variety of real world lighting.
I can design a combo for a specific lighting that will blow any random h&a ags0 away in that lighting.
But in other lighting it would not look as good as the h&a ags0.

Cut is a compromise even with the best cuts.
As a matter of fact the difference between many brands is where they put that compromise.
For example Paul picks a slightly different spot than Brian who picks a different spot that 8* who picks a different spot than Isee2.

Storm, learning about diamonds from experts like yourself just keeps getting bettewr and better. Thank you for explaining that about the sort of `sweet spot` for a particular diamond to look its absolute best.

For my friend, if she only ever wore her ring at night, one would think she has the best taste in diamonds imaginable.

And I do understand that a well cut diamond will have better mileage across different lighting conditions and that means being a better performer overall.

Sharon a by product of the lighting we have planned for Next Diamond is that night time diamonds will be possible.
Imagine the niche for low color lower clarity goods that can be made to sparkle like your friends at night time - therefore we can have affordable jewelry for evening wear.

I think its a brilliant way to sell these sorts of diamonds! Win win imo.
It sounds sexy, bold and exciting!!!!!

Garry, can you elaborate on this Next Diamond?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

there is an article in the journal section Sharon