Can a layman distinguish an excellent cut from a very good/good?

[Rockdiamond]

Ellen- There''s no secret force which will make anyone read, or participate in a discussion here.
Maybe some would like it better if everyone just agreed- or shut up if they did not agree with the "we" you have included yourself in.
But as your tag line mentions, integrity is not a part time thing. Someone asked a question- and I am giving my opinion in a manner that does not compromise my integrity.
You''re totally free not to read it.

You have stated that most Tiffany Cartier and Winston shoppers "don''t know about cut"- isn''t that a bit presumptuous? If they are smart enough to figure out how to earn the funds to shop in such stores, let''s give them a little credit.
Part of this conversation that makes it go on and on is the unwillingness by many posters here to admit there''s other ways to look at this subject- that subject being "What constitutes a well cut diamond"- or "how can we demonstrate that it''s a well cut diamond?"

David Atlas was spot on referring to this point: "This is not really about the good or bad of ideal cut selling, but a discussion about who chooses what and why. There is no one simple answer."

In other words, there will never be a "resolution" to this discussion. But if I''m participating, and a question like the OP''s comes up, I feel that telling another side will always enrich the conversation.

Storm feels that people would choose a near tolk, I feel that many will choose a spreadier well cut stone based on it''s visual characteristics.
Aside form a lot of "explanations"- such as- it''s the store lighting- it''s going to look terrible when it''s dirty- people in big cities like trashy things...etc- no expert has come here and actually answered the question I posed. I believe that''s because they also know the answer. A fair percentage of people will pick the spreadier well cut stone over a near tolk.

I disagree with some of the things David has said- such as the statement that people in big cities go for "big and showy" while rural people go for "lasting quality".
People owning well cut spready diamonds have enjoyed them for many many years with no degradation of quality. There''s nothing about a well cut 60/60 that is not "long lasting" as compared to a near tolk.

I agree that the best sellers with integrity are able to show potential buyers what they love about whatever they are selling- and that there is benefit for consumers in this.
As far as "putty in their hands" maybe other sellers have different experiences but I find that intelligent people will make up their own minds.

part gypsy brought up a very good point about size. Part of what I like better about a well cut spreadier diamond is that they tend to look larger than a near tolk of the same weight. I would not be alone in that preference

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 6/25/2009 3:06:37 PM
Author: Rockdiamond


Storm feels that people would choose a near tolk,

That is not what I said.
That is not even close to my position.
There are well cut diamonds that do not resemble tolk except in passing.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 6/24/2009 11:12:10 PM
Author: strmrdr


Frankly with anyone who has good eye sight and half an interest I could have them seeing the advantage of an ideal cut diamond in under 10 minutes in person time.

Sorry if I misquoted you Storm!
In the PS terminology aren''t "near tolk" and "ideal cut" the same?

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 6/25/2009 3:41:09 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

Date: 6/24/2009 11:12:10 PM

Author: strmrdr



Frankly with anyone who has good eye sight and half an interest I could have them seeing the advantage of an ideal cut diamond in under 10 minutes in person time.

Sorry if I misquoted you Storm!

In the PS terminology aren''t ''near tolk'' and ''ideal cut'' the same?

For the 10000th time no....

 

[Sharon101]

Date: 6/25/2009 1:08:07 PM
Author: part gypsy
Besides all the other very good responses here, another question, is the other lady''s stone bigger than yours? You would think we would be able to take that into account, but as Wink often mentions when you put two stones together, and one is slightly larger, most people go for the slightly larger one even if it is less well cut than the smaller one.

Great point put simply. In the real world of people observing each others stones, i dont think that a layman can distinguish between an excellent cut and a very good cut. Perhaps when put under a fine teeth comb the differences are apparent, but certainly not in a normal everyday viewing situation. imo.

And when the sizes are different the whole playing field changes. ie when it comes to people handing over their hard earned cash, they might prefer the excellent cut in theory but still choose the bigger one that looks similar enough to them. I believe that this holds even more true if the buyer predicts that others will also not notice the difference in cut, but will consintrate on the difference in size!

 

[sarah95]

Good point Sharon. I think that if given the choice, most people would choose the larger of 2 stones, even if the larger one is a lesser cut. With regards to ct. weight, my friend's stone is .05 bigger. I had another look at her stone in indirect sunlight and it wasn't as brilliant as I originally thought. The stone seemed kind of cloudy. I don't know why it looked so brilliant when I first saw it. Perhaps lighting conditions did play a part. A friend louped the diamond for her and mentioned there were several "chips" and "bubbles" under the table, but the owner of the ring is not bothered by this. There is also a visible white inclusion partly covered by a prong.

Thanks for all the responses to my post! They are very interesting to me.

 

[Rhino]

Haven't read through a tad of this thread but the plain answer to your question is "It depends on what is making the diamond a GIA VG".

There are 4 reasons that can affect the diamond from an optical standpoint. Those being ...

a. Steep angled combinations.
b. Shallow angled combinations.
c. Painting of the girdle facets.
d. Digging of the girdle facets.

For any of the reasons above the layman will see an visual difference. Many experts on this forum (including myself) would also argue that even within the realm of the "Excellent" cut grade you'll see a differenced much less going to Very Good or Good. Today we showed a client a comparison of two AGS Ideal's (considered a tighter grading system than GIA) and the client was able to plainly see the difference between two AGS Ideals.

If my answer stopped here however it would be incomplete because there are more than the above 4 reasons why a diamond would not make GIA Ex. The others are ...

e. Weight ratio. This would affect the appearance of the diamond but not optically insomuch as it would being able to see a visible difference in the *size* because factors that contribute to a diamond making VG or G due to weight ratio are things like a girdle that is too thick. In this case the diamond would face up smaller. So the difference seen in this case wouldn't necessarily be an optical difference as much as it would be a *size* difference and real estate on the finger is important to the woman as they want more real estate taken up on the finger and also to the man as he doesn't want to pay for weight you can't see.

f. Durability: This is something you would NOT see any difference in whatsoever. In diamonds that make VG or G grade due to durability could be solely for the reason that the diamond has a very thin or extremely thin girdle. This is something you will not see from a practical perspective but may regret later as it is more succeptible to chipping due to the very thin or extremely thin girdle. If a diamond gets a grade less than Ex because of this feature in particular it's not necessarily a train wreck. If its a relatively small portion of the diamond's girdle that is too thin and can be protected by a prong this isn't the end of the world and the diamond would not suffer visually at all.

g. Polish & Symmetry: If a diamond gets a VG grade and its due to the polish or symmetry that means the polish & symmetry is no greater than "good". That would concern me personally as "good" can generally result in effects that can be seen visually.

That covers all the aspects and only 1 will not affect the visual appearance though if not checked by a qualified gemologist can cause you headaches down the road. All the others will show up in a visual examination. Your launching pad should *at least* be an Ex. Many of us would argue for greater than Ex and for good reason.

Hope that helps.

 

[Sharon101]

Date: 6/26/2009 12:20:14 AM
Author: sarah95
Good point Sharon. I think that if given the choice, most people would choose the larger of 2 stones, even if the larger one is a lesser cut. With regards to ct. weight, my friend''s stone is .05 bigger. I had another look at her stone in indirect sunlight and it wasn''t as brilliant as I originally thought. The stone seemed kind of cloudy. I don''t know why it looked so brilliant when I first saw it. Perhaps lighting conditions did play a part. A friend louped the diamond for her and mentioned there were several ''chips'' and ''bubbles'' under the table, but the owner of the ring is not bothered by this. There is also a visible white inclusion partly covered by a prong.

Thanks for all the responses to my post! They are very interesting to me.

Just want to add that if something is the best, it is the best! LOL. Meaning, the diamonds that are cut to exacting standards are undeniably the best. And where possible, it is something worthwhile to aim for even `if` under some conditions noone else can tell the difference.

Speaking of my own experience with a garden variety cut diamond, there are some lighting conditions where it doesnt look sparkly enough for me......but, in certain other conditions (which I live for

including most indoor lighting at nightime) my ring explodes with glittery sparkle. And I think it would be the furtherest thing from peoples minds that it may have a cut problem!!!!

So in theory, a superior cut diamond will always be superior, no argument. But...... when compared against a bigger size under certain lighting conditions things are not so clear cut imo.

 

[arjunajane]

David, WHY must you continue to hijack people''s threads with your agenda?
You have been asked nicely many a time not to.

It is just plain rude and disrespectful to the consumer, and I imagine you''ve scared off a newbie
or two with this behaviour.
As seen with Strm above, you insist on mis-quoting and mis-paraphrasing experts and pro-sumers, and hence
putting them on the defensive. It''s just simply annoying.

Please, if you want to continue this fruitless discussion, at least have the initiative to start your
own threads (again).




To the OP, I am sorry for my contribution to the threadjack.
I hope you received your answer from the helpful posts here.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 6/25/2009 3:06:37 PM
Author: Rockdiamond


Ellen- There's no secret force which will make anyone read, or participate in a discussion here.
Maybe some would like it better if everyone just agreed- or shut up if they did not agree with the 'we' you have included yourself in.
But as your tag line mentions, integrity is not a part time thing. Someone asked a question- and I am giving my opinion in a manner that does not compromise my integrity.
You're totally free not to read it.

You have stated that most Tiffany Cartier and Winston shoppers 'don't know about cut'- isn't that a bit presumptuous? If they are smart enough to figure out how to earn the funds to shop in such stores, let's give them a little credit.
Part of this conversation that makes it go on and on is the unwillingness by many posters here to admit there's other ways to look at this subject- that subject being 'What constitutes a well cut diamond'- or 'how can we demonstrate that it's a well cut diamond?'

David Atlas was spot on referring to this point: 'This is not really about the good or bad of ideal cut selling, but a discussion about who chooses what and why. There is no one simple answer.'

In other words, there will never be a 'resolution' to this discussion. But if I'm participating, and a question like the OP's comes up, I feel that telling another side will always enrich the conversation.





Storm feels that people would choose a near tolk, I feel that many will choose a spreadier well cut stone based on it's visual characteristics.
Aside form a lot of 'explanations'- such as- it's the store lighting- it's going to look terrible when it's dirty- people in big cities like trashy things...etc- no expert has come here and actually answered the question I posed. I believe that's because they also know the answer. A fair percentage of people will pick the spreadier well cut stone over a near tolk.

I disagree with some of the things David has said- such as the statement that people in big cities go for 'big and showy' while rural people go for 'lasting quality'.
People owning well cut spready diamonds have enjoyed them for many many years with no degradation of quality. There's nothing about a well cut 60/60 that is not 'long lasting' as compared to a near tolk.

I agree that the best sellers with integrity are able to show potential buyers what they love about whatever they are selling- and that there is benefit for consumers in this.
As far as 'putty in their hands' maybe other sellers have different experiences but I find that intelligent people will make up their own minds.

part gypsy brought up a very good point about size. Part of what I like better about a well cut spreadier diamond is that they tend to look larger than a near tolk of the same weight. I would not be alone in that preference

I don't even know what that question really is David.... But I do know many on here have tried to talk to you, but you are so busy trying to get what you think across, you don't truly "hear" anyone, ever. You totally miss the "points". It's been demonstrated time and time again. My guess is, no one's going to bother anymore, because it's wasted time, which is frustrating. And that's the same reason I'm not going to take all the time it would require to address the rest of your post to me. I've done it many times before, and yet, it's like I never said anything. I imagine others feel the same way. Because if it were truly that the experts couldn't answer your question, they'd say so, I've seen them say it to others before.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Great answer Jon- thank you for putting forth your views.

We agree that it's possible to see differences within AGS0- or GIA EX cut grade stones.
I've seen stones graded EX by GIA that "didn't float my boat"- however I believe there would be some observers who would have preferred them over stones I personally would pick.

We agree there's variations within the GIA EX and AGS O cut grades- but do you feel that everyone will pick the same stone your client picked yesterday?
My point is- to call one stone "better" is to take a subjective judgement, and call it a fact.

Regarding some of the other points you made specifically:
e- we agree -the visual size of a diamond is important to many buyers. My experience is that a slightly spreadier stone- as opposed to a Near Tolk is generally better in this regard.

f- I would agree that in cases of "Very Thin" or "Extremely Thin" girdles care must be taken.

g- here we disagree. I have seen literally thousands of stones with "Good" polish and symmetry where the reason for the downgrade from VG or EX was extremely difficult for an expert to see with a loupe, and impossible to see with the naked eye. Especially when it comes to Polish.
Conversely , examples of "Good" polish and symmetry, where the reason for the downgrade that were obvious- or even visible to the eye (versus VG or EX) are extremely rare IMO.

Clearly, there are buyers who want to eliminate stones that are VG cut grade- or merely "Good" polish and symmetry.
But how many buyers eliminate VG cut grade- or stones with "good" polish and symmetry based on perception, having never even seen such stones?
If a person chooses a VG cut grade stone over an EX ( and there are no thin girdle or durability issues) did they pick a "lesser" stone?

Common sense- and the general sentiment at PS- seems to indicate that they did "sacrifice" something.
What I'm saying- that seems to really get people angry here- is that if the buyer prefers the VG cut grade stone they sacrificed nothing- except less money for the stone.
This also means that by simply advising people to go straight for the EX cut grade ( and higher priced) stones, the result is that some buyers that might have preferred the VG cut grade- based on visual characteristics end up getting smaller stones for their money.
Take the "stigma" away and buyers look at VG cut grade stones with a more open mind. Many buyers would be better served by getting a larger VG cut grade stone.

People that own well cut VG cut grade stones and love them should not be made to feel they have a somehow "defective" diamond.

 

[strmrdr]

David yet again you are misstating the position of a lot of people here and being insulting.
Further you are stating your opinion as fact without backing it up.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Sorry you feel that way Storm!

BTW- what exactly were you referring to when you used the term "Ideal Cut"?

IN discussions I've had here, it's been stated that the term "ideal cut" is ambiguous.

The term "Near Tolk" was suggested to describe stones with tables in the 53-57% range ( or thereabouts)


Edited to add: Storm- and al the other people who find my writings to be insulting- I sincerely apologize. It is not my intent to insult anyone.
I really do feel the way I say and feel it's an important point in the conversation..

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 6/26/2009 5:09:11 PM
Author: strmrdr
David yet again you are misstating the position of a lot of people here and being insulting.

Further you are stating your opinion as fact without backing it up.

Strm, I admire your tenacity.

And I have a very strong suspicion that David is simply playing coy, and knows *exactly* what he''s doing
when mis-quoting ppl, the other ploys, etc, etc..

It''s a continued and repetitive pattern, with *NO* adjustment to his argument, despite lengthy discussion with experts and pro-sumers continually attempting to explain and educate on their positions - in one ear and out the other, so to say.

David, I tend to try to avoid your lengthy thread-jacks, but even skimming them becomes frustrating.

Please, once and for all, can you *PLEASE* agree to disagree with the prevailing wisdom here, and cease trying to undermine the sincere efforts that are made to help consumers every single day on PS. Your continued suggestions that posters (such as Ellen) do not consider the newbie''s "real needs" and simply hawk a tunnel vision ideal cut promo, is insulting and just plain incorrect.

Unless you are willing to step in and offer an actual alternative suggestion based on facts and research, and not just rhetoric and florid speaching, you continue to offend the efforts of the regular posters here.

And yes, this is all just simply my opinion and my personal take on the matter - there it is, like it or lump it !

 

[strmrdr]

David, if you want to say that cut grades are not 100% and some stones are not classified where there beauty should place them then we can discuss it and agree.

When you say you guys do this blah blah blah there is not room for agreement.

Ideal cut should properly just be used as AGS ideal which includes near tolks/60-60s/fics and bics, all different all well cut, then there are a few possible combos that don''t belong in that group.

Since you are talking about GIA grading, almost every professional and almost every prosumer here agrees that there are some GIA VG cut grade diamonds that are better looking than some GIA EX cut graded stones.

 

[John P]

Date: 6/24/2009 8:44:17 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

When I mentioned your post, I was responding to what I thought was a correlation between the differences in clarity- (ie- some people can see inclusions in VS stones) and that of cut quality.

Hi David,

Unintended. My statement was simply that some people see more than others. Having a way to determine a client's level of "cut perception" is useful, in the same way it's useful to know if your client has radar vision... Nothing concerning make or preferences. Just a fact about human vision.

Date: 6/24/2009 8:44:17 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

Date: 6/24/2009 6:50:40 AM
Author: John Pollard
The exact diamonds compared and the lighting influence the answer - but an overlooked answer to this question is whether the viewer's ability to see differences.

Just as people have different levels of color or clarity perception (we've all met the rare clients who can spot inclusions in VS stones) people also have different levels of cut perception. In fact I train the traditional jewelers I work with to walk clients & diamonds through several different lighting conditions in their store - where cut differences become more exaggerated - and have the client describe what he/she is seeing. In this way the professional can get an idea of what level of cut perception a specific customer may have.

I'm giving away a trick of the trade now but I wish more jewelers would employ it. Putting diamonds in front of someone and saying "This is a 1.20 G VS2 bla bla" cancels the possibility of getting a true first impression from that person.

Brian Gavin was the first diamantaire who taught me to put several stones in front of a client in neutral light and have them describe what they are seeing. I have taken that strategy and developed it further with some of our jewelers. Once you know what the client has in mind take a few comparison stones (widen the range of the Cs) and show them in a few different lighting conditions. Let the client describe what he/she sees. I have found that most jewelers who have not tried doing this can barely summon the patience for the exercise.

It is a beautiful thing when a shopper who came in with strictly "XYZ" in their heads finds out they actually have different thresholds then they presumed in one or more of the Cs. When that happens both the client and his jeweler have learned something - which often leads to a desire to learn more.

 

[John P]

Date: 6/26/2009 1:14:40 AM
Author: Rhino
Haven't read through a tad of this thread but the plain answer to your question is 'It depends on what is making the diamond a GIA VG'.

There are 4 reasons that can affect the diamond from an optical standpoint. Those being ...

a. Steep angled combinations.
b. Shallow angled combinations.
c. Painting of the girdle facets.
d. Digging of the girdle facets.

For any of the reasons above the layman will see an visual difference. Many experts on this forum (including myself) would also argue that even within the realm of the 'Excellent' cut grade you'll see a differenced much less going to Very Good or Good. Today we showed a client a comparison of two AGS Ideal's (considered a tighter grading system than GIA) and the client was able to plainly see the difference between two AGS Ideals.

If my answer stopped here however it would be incomplete because there are more than the above 4 reasons why a diamond would not make GIA Ex. The others are ...

e. Weight ratio. This would affect the appearance of the diamond but not optically insomuch as it would being able to see a visible difference in the *size* because factors that contribute to a diamond making VG or G due to weight ratio are things like a girdle that is too thick. In this case the diamond would face up smaller. So the difference seen in this case wouldn't necessarily be an optical difference as much as it would be a *size* difference and real estate on the finger is important to the woman as they want more real estate taken up on the finger and also to the man as he doesn't want to pay for weight you can't see.

f. Durability: This is something you would NOT see any difference in whatsoever. In diamonds that make VG or G grade due to durability could be solely for the reason that the diamond has a very thin or extremely thin girdle. This is something you will not see from a practical perspective but may regret later as it is more succeptible to chipping due to the very thin or extremely thin girdle. If a diamond gets a grade less than Ex because of this feature in particular it's not necessarily a train wreck. If its a relatively small portion of the diamond's girdle that is too thin and can be protected by a prong this isn't the end of the world and the diamond would not suffer visually at all.

g. Polish & Symmetry: If a diamond gets a VG grade and its due to the polish or symmetry that means the polish & symmetry is no greater than 'good'. That would concern me personally as 'good' can generally result in effects that can be seen visually.

That covers all the aspects and only 1 will not affect the visual appearance though if not checked by a qualified gemologist can cause you headaches down the road. All the others will show up in a visual examination. Your launching pad should *at least* be an Ex. Many of us would argue for greater than Ex and for good reason.

Hope that helps.

Nicely written post Rhino.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Storm- point well taken. I really do welcome the opportunity to exchange ideas.

I agree John- Rhino's post was excellent.


In re-reading my response - and since the term "fact" has been used a lot:

When I said that calling one stone "better" as a fact - but it is actually subjective- was not clear enough.
You can use science to identify stones that meet extremely exacting criteria.
Such examination will yield factual evidence.
Such as: One stone performs better as compared to another with regards to light return.

Therefore, a dealer that uses this information is using facts to identify what they are selling.
My point was that the facts may not always agree with what someone perceives. Some people may prefer stones that can be proven- using facts- to be inferior to others. Therefore a stone that does not do as well using factual data may very well be superior to some viewers perceptions.
If I was not clear enough oin this, when I say this, I am stating my opinion.

John Pollard is an asset to the industry, no question.
Rhino is as well.
I want to make it clear that I have nothing but respect for both.

As well for the forum, and it's members.
Have a great weekend everyone!

 

[Richard Sherwood]

You know, to be honest with you, I know what David is talking about. I feel his frustration.

I'll try not to put words in David's mouth, and voice my own misgivings, but the truth is that I feel this forum rules out a multitude of gorgeous diamonds because they don't look good on paper, or in photographs.

I can't tell you how many times I've seen a jeweler's or vendor's diamond "shot down" by Pricescope critics which I know would have been a beautiful stone, but didn't "pass the grade" because of one minor thing or another.

The Pricescope critics are much more critical than the average, well trained jeweler who makes his living personally examining dozens of diamonds every day. This jeweler might recommend one to a client which is perfectly gorgeous, only to have that client experience shock and disappointment when he posts the stone's specs on Pricescope and it gets "dissed".

Don't get me wrong. I enjoy ideal cuts as much as the next expert. But the truth is, this is a "niche" market which is not representative at all of the diamond market as a whole. It is just a verrrrry small part of it. I think it is admirable the strides this market has made, but I don't think it should dictate either the expert's or the consumer's idea of beauty.

I have seen diamonds which commanded only a "Fair" GIA cut ranking which were still gorgeous diamonds. Hell, I've seen ones with "Poor" rankings which were pretty impressive. I know beauty when I see it, and these diamonds were beautiful. Nobody can tell me that they weren't, because I've seen thousands of diamonds and can recognize an exceptional visual presentation.

Sometimes you'll have a stone which violates all the "rules", but is simply gorgeous, plain and simple.

I personally feel that this forum's critics can be way too harsh in passing judgement on such stones.

 

[Dancing Fire]

but Rich...as a consumer why should we take a chance of buying a "fair or good" GIA graded stone over the internet when there are many VG and Ex graded to choose from?

 

[stone-cold11]

Agrees with DF, especially when we have nothing to go by except the images and report stats? Are we just going to take every vendors'' word for it that it is good, a beauty?

 

[Ellen]

Rich, I totally understand what you're saying, and I'm not disagreeing that it happens sometimes. But I would say again, that many people don't want to buy a stone that "might" be fine, pay to have it appraised, and maybe find out it's not, or find out they don't like it just by looking at it. That's time and money wasted, and many coming here don't have one, or both of those. And, it's scary enough buying on the internet, buyers want to hear, "It looks great" about a potential stone. They need that comfort factor. We can't always say, or more importantly, know that.

Now, I think I am more lenient than some, and more critical than others. That's ok, I have to feel good about a stone I'm recommending, I really do feel a certain responsiblity to the the consumer. I want to have no doubt, or very little that they are going to love the stone. I/we are not as good as you are at ruling stones in/out, so there's that too.

Lastly, as I've said before to David, this isn't like shopping in person. If people want to have a hands on/eyes on experience, terrific. Go shopping in a real store. I encourage them to do that. And then they will truly know what they do and don't like, and what is beautiful to them. But buying online has different rules, it's just not the same. So we tend to go with tried and true.

And as I've also said before, we may not do things that please all people, but the consumers aren't complaing.

And yes, great post Jon.

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 6/26/2009 7:47:58 PM
Author: Ellen
Rich, I totally understand what you''re saying, and I''m not disagreeing that it happens sometimes. But I would say again, that many people don''t want to buy a stone that ''might'' be fine, pay to have it appraised, and maybe find out it''s not, or find out they don''t like it just by looking at it. That''s time and money wasted, and many coming here don''t have one, or both of those. And, it''s scary enough buying on the internet, buyers want to hear, ''It looks great'' about a potential stone. They need that comfort factor. We can''t always say, or more importantly, know that.


Now, I think I am more lenient than some, and more critical than others. That''s ok, I have to feel good about a stone I''m recommending, I really do feel a certain responsiblity to the the consumer. I want to have no doubt, or very little that they are going to love the stone. I/we are not as good as you are at ruling stones in/out, so there''s that too.

Lastly, as I''ve said before to David, this isn''t like shopping in person. If people want to have a hands on/eyes on experience, terrific. Go shopping in a real store. I encourage them to do that. And then they will truly know what they do and don''t like, and what is beautiful to them. But buying online has different rules, it''s just not the same. So we tend to go with tried and true.

And as I''ve also said before, we may not do things that please all people, but the consumers aren''t complaing.

And yes, great post Jon.

ditto Ellen on all accounts.

 

[Sharon101]

Date: 6/26/2009 7:06:19 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood
You know, to be honest with you, I know what David is talking about. I feel his frustration.

I''ll try not to put words in David''s mouth, and voice my own misgivings, but the truth is that I feel this forum rules out a multitude of gorgeous diamonds because they don''t look good on paper, or in photographs.

I can''t tell you how many times I''ve seen a jeweler''s or vendor''s diamond ''shot down'' by Pricescope critics which I know would have been a beautiful stone, but didn''t ''pass the grade'' because of one minor thing or another.

The Pricescope critics are much more critical than the average, well trained jeweler who makes his living personally examining dozens of diamonds every day. This jeweler might recommend one to a client which is perfectly gorgeous, only to have that client experience shock and disappointment when he posts the stone''s specs on Pricescope and it gets ''dissed''.

Don''t get me wrong. I enjoy ideal cuts as much as the next expert. But the truth is, this is a ''niche'' market which is not representative at all of the diamond market as a whole. It is just a verrrrry small part of it. I think it is admirable the strides this market has made, but I don''t think it should dictate either the expert''s or the consumer''s idea of beauty.

I have seen diamonds which commanded only a ''Fair'' GIA cut ranking which were still gorgeous diamonds. Hell, I''ve seen ones with ''Poor'' rankings which were pretty impressive. I know beauty when I see it, and these diamonds were beautiful. Nobody can tell me that they weren''t, because I''ve seen thousands of diamonds and can recognize an exceptional visual presentation.

Sometimes you''ll have a stone which violates all the ''rules'', but is simply gorgeous, plain and simple.

I personally feel that this forum''s critics can be way too harsh in passing judgement on such stones.

Hi Richard, thanks for your opinion. What you have said (and David too) holds true for me. I have seen my fair share of diamonds both on lucky wearers and in a trade situation and my conclusion is exactly what you have said. It really isnt as black and white as is `sometimes` put forward here.

I suppose its always going to be difficult for diamond buyers to not get ripped off, so buying by the numbers is a great way to protect them by eliminating poor performing diamonds. But the downside is that they also eliminate bigger sized diamonds that may perform just as well, but dont have the numbers going for them.

I also feel that the judgement against stones which dont have the numbers is sometimes harsh, when irl , the differences may be hardly detectible. Sometimes it seems that a stone is either frozen spit or great cut with a world of divide between them. In reality the differences between the various cuts might be more subtle, with some real surprise performances from what are not perfect cuts.

For example, my princess has a very big table with not much top & the numbers suck. But, it is surprisingly bright, it actually is a real eye catcher because it is very lively. Would I want a better performer? Of course! Would I want to pay 3 or 4 times what I paid or go much smaller.......probably not!!!! My diamond was bought by seeing it first. I probably wouldnt have had much confidence to buy it on numbers alone sight unseen.

Another thing that I see in the diamond market is that the standard overall is higher than what it was 10 or 20 years ago. I am not including the spit diamonds because I rarely see them in jewellery shops myself.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 6/26/2009 7:06:19 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood
You know, to be honest with you, I know what David is talking about. I feel his frustration.

I'll try not to put words in David's mouth, and voice my own misgivings, but the truth is that I feel this forum rules out a multitude of gorgeous diamonds because they don't look good on paper, or in photographs.

I can't tell you how many times I've seen a jeweler's or vendor's diamond 'shot down' by Pricescope critics which I know would have been a beautiful stone, but didn't 'pass the grade' because of one minor thing or another.

The Pricescope critics are much more critical than the average, well trained jeweler who makes his living personally examining dozens of diamonds every day. This jeweler might recommend one to a client which is perfectly gorgeous, only to have that client experience shock and disappointment when he posts the stone's specs on Pricescope and it gets 'dissed'.

Don't get me wrong. I enjoy ideal cuts as much as the next expert. But the truth is, this is a 'niche' market which is not representative at all of the diamond market as a whole. It is just a verrrrry small part of it. I think it is admirable the strides this market has made, but I don't think it should dictate either the expert's or the consumer's idea of beauty.

I have seen diamonds which commanded only a 'Fair' GIA cut ranking which were still gorgeous diamonds. Hell, I've seen ones with 'Poor' rankings which were pretty impressive. I know beauty when I see it, and these diamonds were beautiful. Nobody can tell me that they weren't, because I've seen thousands of diamonds and can recognize an exceptional visual presentation.

Sometimes you'll have a stone which violates all the 'rules', but is simply gorgeous, plain and simple.

I personally feel that this forum's critics can be way too harsh in passing judgement on such stones.

Rich, I totally agree and it is something I try to be mindful of myself, I might not get it right all the time but sometimes I am seeing beautiful diamonds written off by some posters just going by their own preferences or latching onto something about a diamond which might not even be an issue in reality and it isn't serving the other poster well.

Maybe this stems from a lack of knowledge and confidence in some cases that a consumer poster will denigrate a particular diamond as they are concerned about being called out on liking a ' lesser' cut diamond. However it is best to find out what a particular poster wants, steer them in the right direction and avoid nit picking perfectly good images unless absolute perfection is sought by the buyer, also to not overstep our bounds as consumers. It is a tricky path to walk on being a PS consumer and now and then a reality check is useful to keep RT a place where anyone feels comfortable to ask for advice regardless of what they want to purchase, or where they intend to purchase it.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 6/26/2009 7:47:58 PM
Author: Ellen
Rich, I totally understand what you''re saying, and I''m not disagreeing that it happens sometimes. But I would say again, that many people don''t want to buy a stone that ''might'' be fine, pay to have it appraised, and maybe find out it''s not, or find out they don''t like it just by looking at it. That''s time and money wasted, and many coming here don''t have one, or both of those. And, it''s scary enough buying on the internet, buyers want to hear, ''It looks great'' about a potential stone. They need that comfort factor. We can''t always say, or more importantly, know that.

Now, I think I am more lenient than some, and more critical than others. That''s ok, I have to feel good about a stone I''m recommending, I really do feel a certain responsiblity to the the consumer. I want to have no doubt, or very little that they are going to love the stone. I/we are not as good as you are at ruling stones in/out, so there''s that too.

Lastly, as I''ve said before to David, this isn''t like shopping in person. If people want to have a hands on/eyes on experience, terrific. Go shopping in a real store. I encourage them to do that. And then they will truly know what they do and don''t like, and what is beautiful to them. But buying online has different rules, it''s just not the same. So we tend to go with tried and true.

And as I''ve also said before, we may not do things that please all people, but the consumers aren''t complaing.

And yes, great post Jon.

You do a great job Miss!!!

 

[Sharon101]

Lorelei and Ellen, you both do a great service here on PS!

Obviously not every system is perfect, but you both are very grounded and you have a wealth of knowledge and experience. Plus your help is coming from a good place.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 6/27/2009 5:17:54 AM
Author: Sharon101
Lorelei and Ellen, you both do a great service here on PS!

Obviously not every system is perfect, but you both are very grounded and you have a wealth of knowledge and experience. Plus your help is coming from a good place.

Sharon, thanks - that means a lot!!

 

[Ellen]

Date: 6/27/2009 5:34:41 AM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 6/27/2009 5:17:54 AM
Author: Sharon101
Lorelei and Ellen, you both do a great service here on PS!

Obviously not every system is perfect, but you both are very grounded and you have a wealth of knowledge and experience. Plus your help is coming from a good place.

Sharon, thanks - that means a lot!!

Indeed it does. Thank you Sharon!

Lore, forgot to say thank you!

And you do too in return miss!

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 6/27/2009 7:13:23 AM
Author: Ellen

Date: 6/27/2009 5:34:41 AM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 6/27/2009 5:17:54 AM
Author: Sharon101
Lorelei and Ellen, you both do a great service here on PS!

Obviously not every system is perfect, but you both are very grounded and you have a wealth of knowledge and experience. Plus your help is coming from a good place.

Sharon, thanks - that means a lot!!

Indeed it does. Thank you Sharon!

Lore, forgot to say thank you!

And you do too in return miss!

Oh you are most welcome friend!!!