Can a layman distinguish an excellent cut from a very good/good?

[sarah95]

Hi everyone! My husband and I purchased the diamond for my ering with the help and guidance of the knowledgable people here on this forum. Thanks to you we learned how important Cut is and focused on getting the best cut diamond for the money. I ended up with a GIA triple excellent (I posted the specs here to confirm that it fit into the excellent category) and got what I think is a beautiful stone on paper and in person. My appraiser at Accredited Gem Appraiser couldn''t stop raving about the brilliance of the stone. I felt like the months of research and reading here at PS helped us make a wise choice. As much as I learned, I''m no expert, but I definitely feel like I have a better understanding about diamonds. Fast forward to now (about 8-9 months later) and a friend of mine recently got engaged. This couple went to a random b&m, picked out what looked "sparkly" (an EGL stone) and bought it on the spot, only armed with their limited knowledge of the four C''s. I saw the ring in person briefly and was shocked that I couldn''t tell the difference in cut quality! It looked just like mine! At the end of the day I''m glad to have the piece of mind that I got a quality stone, but is it because I''m a layman that I couldn''t appreciate the difference in cut quality?

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 6/23/2009 12:24:48 PM
Author:sarah95
Hi everyone! My husband and I purchased the diamond for my ering with the help and guidance of the knowledgable people here on this forum. Thanks to you we learned how important Cut is and focused on getting the best cut diamond for the money. I ended up with a GIA triple excellent (I posted the specs here to confirm that it fit into the excellent category) and got what I think is a beautiful stone on paper and in person. My appraiser at Accredited Gem Appraiser couldn't stop raving about the brilliance of the stone. I felt like the months of research and reading here at PS helped us make a wise choice. As much as I learned, I'm no expert, but I definitely feel like I have a better understanding about diamonds. Fast forward to now (about 8-9 months later) and a friend of mine recently got engaged. This couple went to a random b&m, picked out what looked 'sparkly' (an EGL stone) and bought it on the spot, only armed with their limited knowledge of the four C's. I saw the ring in person briefly and was shocked that I couldn't tell the difference in cut quality! It looked just like mine! At the end of the day I'm glad to have the piece of mind that I got a quality stone, but is it because I'm a layman that I couldn't appreciate the difference in cut quality?

Possibly, also you can't really tell unless you give each a good test drive in different lighting conditions, that is where the well cut stone will hold its own and the mediocre cut run out of steam! It depends on the personality and proportions of the diamond also, for example some lesser cuts might look very brilliant in some lights but go dead in others. You can enjoy your diamond safe in the knowledge you researched and chose well and that your diamond will look good in any lighting!

 

[Indira-London]

Date: 6/23/2009 12:27:13 PM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 6/23/2009 12:24:48 PM
Author:sarah95
Hi everyone! My husband and I purchased the diamond for my ering with the help and guidance of the knowledgable people here on this forum. Thanks to you we learned how important Cut is and focused on getting the best cut diamond for the money. I ended up with a GIA triple excellent (I posted the specs here to confirm that it fit into the excellent category) and got what I think is a beautiful stone on paper and in person. My appraiser at Accredited Gem Appraiser couldn''t stop raving about the brilliance of the stone. I felt like the months of research and reading here at PS helped us make a wise choice. As much as I learned, I''m no expert, but I definitely feel like I have a better understanding about diamonds. Fast forward to now (about 8-9 months later) and a friend of mine recently got engaged. This couple went to a random b&m, picked out what looked ''sparkly'' (an EGL stone) and bought it on the spot, only armed with their limited knowledge of the four C''s. I saw the ring in person briefly and was shocked that I couldn''t tell the difference in cut quality! It looked just like mine! At the end of the day I''m glad to have the piece of mind that I got a quality stone, but is it because I''m a layman that I couldn''t appreciate the difference in cut quality?

Possibly, also you can''t really tell unless you give each a good test drive in different lighting conditions, that is where the well cut stone will hold its own and the mediocre cut run out of steam! It depends on the personality and proportions of the diamond also, for example some lesser cuts might look very brilliant in some lights but go dead in others. You can enjoy your diamond safe in the knowledge you researched and chose well and that your diamond will look good in any lighting!

Well said Lorelei.

It may not be practical (as I am sure that you would not want to hurt your friend''s feelings) but you are more likely to notice the difference if you compare both rings in lower lighting conditions e.g. under a piece of furniture. I do this when clients come to see me: I show them a well cut next to an average cut and then ask them to look at that in difference lighting conditions including in bright lights, natural window light as well as under my office table (I mean furniture here and not the diamond table) and they are shocked at how the lesser cut diamond fades around the edges whereas the well-cut one sparkles from edge-to-edge even in the lower light conditions.

 

[Fly Girl]

Had both diamonds been recently cleaned? Differences in how clean they are can trump cut. Although, the well cut diamond will look better dirty than an equally dirty poorly cut diamond.

 

[elle_chris]

Or, maybe she just got a very well cut stone?

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 6/23/2009 12:56:00 PM
Author: elle_chris
Or, maybe she just got a very well cut stone?

That is possible.
but,

In a lot of lighting almost any diamond will look good.
It is the extremes in lighting that make a superstar out of a well cut diamond.
There isn''t enough information to say what is going on.

 

[Todd Gray]

So much depends on the proportions of the diamonds being compared and as mentioned variations in lighting and when the diamonds being compared were last cleaned. If both diamonds have similar proportions, it would not surprise me if they exhibit similar visual performance... But if they don''t, I would certainly be surprised.

Some stores carry better cut stones than others, when we had our retail jewelry store it would have certainly been possible for a customer to walk in off the street without knowing a thing and walk out with a diamond of exceptional cut quality and visual performance without knowing a thing! This would not have been possible had he walked into any of the three other jewelry stores on the street because they sold a variety of cut quality where we focused on strictly diamonds of ideal proportions and cut quality. It''s not just what you buy, sometimes it''s where you buy.

I recommend getting your diamond professionally cleaned and then studying it carefully in a variety of lighting conditions and then casually taking another look at the diamond your friend just purchased

 

[phoenixgirl]

For their sake (and to explain your situation), I wonder if they just wound up buying a well cut stone. Just because it has an EGL cert and they didn''t do their homework doesn''t mean it doesn''t have an excellent cut. Plus since hers was new, it had probably been cleaned very recently.

I think if you saw a stone with an average cut, you would know it when you saw it.

 

[sarah95]

Thanks for all the responses everyone! I guess knowing the reputation EGL has, I figured it would be hard to buy a diamond just going by the very good cut label...I figured one would have to look at the numbers. Though, I guess that''s true with GIA too, since the "excellent" cut parameters are wide. Also, as mentioned above, it''s quite possible she has a well cut stone. I''m also shocked by the price. It''s 3.30 cts, D, SI1 and was purchased for $30K. GIA stones with those specs are considerably higher. Maybe you can get a bargain with EGL.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 6/23/2009 2:17:02 PM
Author: sarah95
Thanks for all the responses everyone! I guess knowing the reputation EGL has, I figured it would be hard to buy a diamond just going by the very good cut label...I figured one would have to look at the numbers. Though, I guess that''s true with GIA too, since the ''excellent'' cut parameters are wide. Also, as mentioned above, it''s quite possible she has a well cut stone. I''m also shocked by the price. It''s 3.30 cts, D, SI1 and was purchased for $30K. GIA stones with those specs are considerably higher. Maybe you can get a bargain with EGL.

you get what you paid for...
this stone will not grade D SI1 if it was send to GIA or AGS lab.

 

[Liane]

If all you had was a brief look at the stone, and it was well-cut (which, yes, EGL stones can be -- I have one that''s near H&A and under most lighting conditions is indistinguishable from a true H&A), and you''re a lay observer... then that doesn''t surprise me at all. The difference between "very good" and "excellent" cut stones is a lot subtler in real life than I thought it would be based on the precision and distinctions drawn on PS. After immersing myself in all the details and information available here, I was expecting some huge glaring difference in real life, and that''s just not how it works. The difference is there, and it''s real, but it''s also much subtler than I imagined. Without this forum and a whole lot of time spent staring at magnified images, I''d never be able to tell, and I still barely can.

And yes, you can get a bargain with EGL -- but it helps to know what you''re looking for, since the grading in and of itself is not nearly as reliable.

 

[Rockdiamond]

I agree Liane.
The differences between a very well cut stone, and one preferred by people using ASET/IS can be quite subtle. By no means is it a "night and day" difference between many stones getting VG cut grade and those getting AGS0.

I''ve raised this point many times: Say we showed two diamonds to 100 people interested in a well cut diamond.
Let''s say one is an AGS0- a stone who''s numbers and IS/ASET images would be preferred by the majority and most vocal posters here- compared to a stone of VG cut grade- one that may have a lesser IS and ASET images.
A large percentage of people in real life will pick the stone considered "lesser" by many people here.
That will be true in any lighting environment, stones clean or dirty.

In term of the price- I agree with DF. If it truly was a D/SI1 it would have been sent to GIA.

 

[LadyBlue]

Date: 6/23/2009 1:22:30 PM
Author: phoenixgirl
For their sake (and to explain your situation), I wonder if they just wound up buying a well cut stone. Just because it has an EGL cert and they didn''t do their homework doesn''t mean it doesn''t have an excellent cut. Plus since hers was new, it had probably been cleaned very recently.


I think if you saw a stone with an average cut, you would know it when you saw it.

That''s what I was thinking

The stone could even being a Excellent Cut H&A

 

[John P]

The exact diamonds compared and the lighting influence the answer - but an overlooked answer to this question is whether the viewer's ability to see differences.

Just as people have different levels of color or clarity perception (we've all met the rare clients who can spot inclusions in VS stones) people also have different levels of cut perception. In fact I train the traditional jewelers I work with to walk clients & diamonds through several different lighting conditions in their store - where cut differences become more exaggerated - and have the client describe what he/she is seeing. In this way the professional can get an idea of what level of cut perception a specific customer may have.

 

[oldminer]

I think a main reason people may select a diamond which slightly fails to meet GIA EX or AGS0 when they are closely compared is that these secondary stones may represent a very good financial alternative. Just like buying an F-G can readily be a great substitute for less money than a D-E, or an SI1-VS2 can be a great substitute for a VVS1-VS1. Besides, when a dealer shows two diamonds to a client, the lighting is strong, the diamonds are very clean, and the money is about to be spent. It is a moment of great pressure and probably of confusion, too. I know Rockdiamond is telling the truth as what he says does happen all the time. I personally don''t think most consumers can tell under perfect selling conditions of bright lights, clean stones and under pressure to make a decision. I do think that many consumers do see the differences much more clearly weeks or months later, but the differences we are discussing are not large or deal breakers. You have one opportunity when buying a diamond to decide yes or no. You live with this decision until upgrade time happens. The more you know, the better you will be prepared to make smart compromises in your buying choices.

 

[Rockdiamond]

HI everyone!
John, I don''t feel this is like the difference between a VS and an SI. Anyone interested, if given the choice, and ability, to see the imperfection, would likely pick the cleaner stone ( all other things being equal)
I''m saying that people who can see the difference won''t always pick the stone with the Hearts and Arrows. A percentage will pick well cut stones with larger (60%) tables that don''t do as well on ASET/IS or HCA.
I''m saying it''s not going to be a small percentage of interested people ( "interested people" are not just casual observers, but people who love diamonds)- I really do believe it will be around 1/2.
I''m saying that a fair percentage of interested, able viewers won''t like the same thing John or Garry Holliway, or I might prefer.

There is a "prevailing view" here on PS. Perfect optical symmetry is "good" and light leakage is "bad"
I feel that the prevailing view here does not take into account people''s taste.

I''ve shown this with two stones that were examined by David Atlas who performed ASET and IS on them. Here''s the thread
The experts on PS agreed that one stone was less well cut based on it''s IS/ASET images.

My position is that the stone shown to be less well cut by the ASET and IS is prettier. My position is that the "lesser cut" stone will be chosen by many interested shoppers- people who CAN see the difference.
Many will pick the stone described on PS as "not as well cut"- this will happen in store lighting, or dim lighting- in ANY lighting.
They will pick it clean, or dirty.
I''m saying the preference they have for a slightly spreadier diamond without hearts and arrows won''t change due to months or years, as David suggests. My preference has not changed over the past 30+years.

Without question, if someone is looking for a stone with perfect optical symmetry, then the tools work very well.
If they want exactly what many people posting here like, the IS and ASET are invaluable.
But not everyone likes heart and arrows. Not everyone that sees what is called "light leakage" here on PS sees it as a bad thing.

 

[John P]

Date: 6/24/2009 2:57:59 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

HI everyone!

John, I don't feel this is like the difference between a VS and an SI. Anyone interested, if given the choice, and ability, to see the imperfection, would likely pick the cleaner stone ( all other things being equal)
I'm saying that people who can see the difference won't always pick the stone with the Hearts and Arrows. A percentage will pick well cut stones with larger (60%) tables that don't do as well on ASET/IS or HCA.
I'm saying it's not going to be a small percentage of interested people ( 'interested people' are not just casual observers, but people who love diamonds)- I really do believe it will be around 1/2.
I'm saying that a fair percentage of interested, able viewers won't like the same thing John or Garry Holliway, or I might prefer.

There is a 'prevailing view' here on PS. Perfect optical symmetry is 'good' and light leakage is 'bad'
I feel that the prevailing view here does not take into account people's taste.

I've shown this with two stones that were examined by David Atlas who performed ASET and IS on them. Here's the thread
The experts on PS agreed that one stone was less well cut based on it's IS/ASET images.

My position is that the stone shown to be less well cut by the ASET and IS is prettier. My position is that the 'lesser cut' stone will be chosen by many interested shoppers- people who CAN see the difference.
Many will pick the stone described on PS as 'not as well cut'- this will happen in store lighting, or dim lighting- in ANY lighting.
They will pick it clean, or dirty.
I'm saying the preference they have for a slightly spreadier diamond without hearts and arrows won't change due to months or years, as David suggests. My preference has not changed over the past 30+years.

Without question, if someone is looking for a stone with perfect optical symmetry, then the tools work very well.
If they want exactly what many people posting here like, the IS and ASET are invaluable.
But not everyone likes heart and arrows. Not everyone that sees what is called 'light leakage' here on PS sees it as a bad thing.

Hi David,

Sorry. I've read your post a few times and don't understand how it relates to my comments? Maybe I am just tired? (it is about 1AM here)

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 6/24/2009 6:50:40 AM
Author: John Pollard
The exact diamonds compared and the lighting influence the answer - but an overlooked answer to this question is whether the viewer's ability to see differences.

Just as people have different levels of color or clarity perception (we've all met the rare clients who can spot inclusions in VS stones) people also have different levels of cut perception. In fact I train the traditional jewelers I work with to walk clients & diamonds through several different lighting conditions in their store - where cut differences become more exaggerated - and have the client describe what he/she is seeing. In this way the professional can get an idea of what level of cut perception a specific customer may have.

Hi John- get some sleep! Based on the hour, I assume you're in Europe- have a great time!

Although we all agree cut is extremely important, my response was directed toward the OP's question in general.

When I mentioned your post, I was responding to what I thought was a correlation between the differences in clarity- (ie- some people can see inclusions in VS stones) and that of cut quality.

I don;t feel it's a valid comparison as clarity grading- although subjective- is based on characteristics visible with a loupe- or the naked eye. Imperfections.
The grading of the differences in cut between a VG and an EX is based on less...."tangible" characteristics.
There are many stones deemed to be "Very Good"- which is deemed to be a "lesser" quality than "Excellent". To many interested, and knowledgeable observers, these "Very Good" stones have equal visible assets to a stone with a greater cut quality. Or put simply- a lot of people will pick a VG over an EX cut grade based on visual characteristics.

 

[glitterata]

David, you assert that half the people would pick the diamond you prefer: the large-tabled, not-as-symmetrical one that doesn''t have a good ASET or IS image.

Is that assertion based on any evidence? Have you actually shown two such diamond to a large number of people--without letting them know which one you prefer--and had them choose their favorite? And did half of them agree with your preference?

If you haven''t done the experiment, then how do you know you''re right?

 

[Rockdiamond]

I can only go by my own experience speaking to many people in this business who prefer a more open table to a near tolk based on visual characteristics.
Most of the people we come in contact with in our dealings as wholesale diamond dealers never post on diamond forums. I'm speaking primarily of cutters and other dealers. Also those in the manufacturing end.
Plus, there's been many clients who have preferred they type of stone I love after comparing them to near tolks.

If it was feasible, yes, I'd love to conduct a real world study of a broad cross section of consumers.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 6/24/2009 9:31:29 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
I can only go by my own experience speaking to many people in this business who prefer a more open table to a near tolk based on visual characteristics.

Most of the people we come in contact with in our dealings as wholesale diamond dealers never post on diamond forums. I''m speaking primarily of cutters and other dealers. Also those in the manufacturing end.

Plus, there''s been many clients who have preferred they type of stone I love after comparing them to near tolks.


If it was feasible, yes, I''d love to conduct a real world study of a broad cross section of consumers.

Then why not be honest and say many in the trade prefer.....
Frankly with anyone who has good eye sight and half an interest I could have them seeing the advantage of an ideal cut diamond in under 10 minutes in person time.
PS B&M dealers like Wink, Jon and Todd do it every day.

 

[Kaleigh]

Date: 6/24/2009 11:12:10 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 6/24/2009 9:31:29 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
I can only go by my own experience speaking to many people in this business who prefer a more open table to a near tolk based on visual characteristics.

Most of the people we come in contact with in our dealings as wholesale diamond dealers never post on diamond forums. I''m speaking primarily of cutters and other dealers. Also those in the manufacturing end.

Plus, there''s been many clients who have preferred they type of stone I love after comparing them to near tolks.


If it was feasible, yes, I''d love to conduct a real world study of a broad cross section of consumers.

Then why not be honest and say many in the trade prefer.....
Frankly with anyone who has good eye sight and half an interest I could have them seeing the advantage of an ideal cut diamond in under 10 minutes in person time.
PS B&M dealers like Wink, Jon and Todd do it every day.

+1

 

[oldminer]

When someone trusted says thaey "prefer" a particular diamond, the consumer who is putty in their hands tends to agree at some point. We have retailers who "prefer" ideal cuts and we have dealers who "prefer" spreadier, well cut, non-ideals. Their customers are generally led along those lines to select what the seller "prefers". I see nothing unusual about this at all.

Sellers are not objective about what they have to sell in most cases. We can prove factually certain things about diamonds, but some things about diamonds are intangible and not based on facts or proof. I think you will find that the largest cities are home to flashier people and that most of the rest of America is more oriented to quality. That may be an oversimplification, but my big city has lots of folks who want "big and showy" while most people in the smaller cities and rural areas tend to go more for long lasting quality. Sellers want to sell to their home audience and must appeal to their local preferences.

This is not really about the good or bad of ideal cut selling, but a discussion about who chooses what and why. There is no one simple answer.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 6/24/2009 11:12:10 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 6/24/2009 9:31:29 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
I can only go by my own experience speaking to many people in this business who prefer a more open table to a near tolk based on visual characteristics.

Most of the people we come in contact with in our dealings as wholesale diamond dealers never post on diamond forums. I''m speaking primarily of cutters and other dealers. Also those in the manufacturing end.

Plus, there''s been many clients who have preferred they type of stone I love after comparing them to near tolks.


If it was feasible, yes, I''d love to conduct a real world study of a broad cross section of consumers.

Then why not be honest and say many in the trade prefer.....
Frankly with anyone who has good eye sight and half an interest I could have them seeing the advantage of an ideal cut diamond in under 10 minutes in person time.
PS B&M dealers like Wink, Jon and Todd do it every day.

Yes, and Tiffany''s Cartier and Harry Winston sell thousands of times more never ever using an ASET or IS.

Storm, you''re saying you can convince people to like what you like....interesting. Does it involve any kool aid?

 

[Dancing Fire]

back to the 60/60 vs H&A ideal cut topic.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 6/25/2009 10:38:09 AM
Author: Rockdiamond
Yes, and Tiffany's Cartier and Harry Winston sell thousands of times more never ever using an ASET or IS.

Storm, you're saying you can convince people to like what you like....interesting. Does it involve any kool aid?

True. But do they really know what their options are David? Some may and don't care, and many may not. Most people don't know about cut, and therefore don't even know they have options.

I'm not strm, but in my opinion he's not saying he would convince anybody of anything. He's saying once people can compare cuts, the majority might just pick a near tolk, because the stones performance would convince them. But ya know what, it really doesn't matter anymore, because this has been gone over ad infinitum David. We know your views, even though I don't find they're based on total understanding of the facts (and in case you were going to ask, no, I will not point to what I mean, as that has been done a multitude of times by not only me, but many other posters and experts). Let's just give it a rest, ok? Nothing is ever going to change, with "us" anyway. It's really getting tiresome to have this keep coming up. We really do understand what you like, and feel is better. Maybe you could put it in your sig?

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 6/25/2009 10:38:09 AM
Author: Rockdiamond


Storm, you''re saying you can convince people to like what you like....interesting. Does it involve any kool aid?

Nope just facts and getting beyond the oh shinny rock stage.

I have been known to offer people Pepsi :]

 

[jet2ks]

(Not sure which is more appropriate)

 

[Ellen]

Date: 6/25/2009 11:21:38 AM
Author: jet2ks

(Not sure which is more appropriate)

 

[partgypsy]

Besides all the other very good responses here, another question, is the other lady''s stone bigger than yours? You would think we would be able to take that into account, but as Wink often mentions when you put two stones together, and one is slightly larger, most people go for the slightly larger one even if it is less well cut than the smaller one.