Calling Kenny!

[Verdy]

Hi Kenny!

Sorry to call you out of the blue like this, but last year I saw photos of your precious Senegal, Puppy, floating around here and ever since then I've been contemplating the idea of getting one for myself, be it a Senegal or a Caique. I recently moved out on my own and since I don't have anyone around here to share the house with, it's getting kind of lonely. So I went out on a search and found several places that had Senegals available, however right as I was making arrangements with a breeder, I came across an ad for a 2 year old Senegal that was up for sale because the owner was moving out of state and couldn't take the bird with him. He lives nearby, and says the bird is very tame and loving, doesn't have a history of biting, and gets along well with children and adults.

My question to you is this - Would it be advisable to purchase a baby bird that has had no previous owner, or should I take my chances with this two year old? Also, how much time do you spend with Puppy? Are they very demanding birds, or are they okay to be left alone for a few hours?

Any other information you could provide me with would be great, and thanks in advance, I hope you're well!

 

[kenny]

Hi Verdy. Long post warning.
A new hand fed baby, vs. a supposedly well-adjust two year old.
Hard call, but a recently-weaned hand fed chick is less of a risk if you do your homework on the breeder.

First I strongly recommend this book: http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Well-Behaved-Parrot-Barrons-Mattie/dp/0764136674
Dogs and cats have been selectively breed for zillions of years to please humans.
Parrots, not so and they have a strong desire and ability to dominate humans in their 'flock'.
It is on you to learn tons to accommodate this exotic animal.

Senegals stopped being imported to USA in 1992 so your bird will be only one or two generations away from being wild.
Parrots have unique needs that are not obvious to the smartest most loving and sensitive human.
The above book is a wonderful primer that will increase the chances of having a happy bird relationship.

I'm a little nutty and OCD about this subject, as with most subjects.
I've tried to learn a lot and have strong opinions, but I am not an expert, so get other input.
In the last few years literally hundreds of people have told me Puppy is the sweetest most calm and loving bird they've ever encountered (many say they've never touched a bird before) so I must be doing something right.
She meets many people because she hangs on my shirt when I walk the dogs each day, and unless I'm going to work she's with me whenever I leave the house.
She'll stay silently in my shirt when I'm in a store if I push her head down.
When no humans will be at home I move her cage so she can see our two dogs and she's fine for several hours.

Here are four ways to find your Senegal parrot, in descending order of desirability.
Locate a local breeder so the chick would not have to be flown in a jet.
Put dibs on a future chick and stay in touch.
Go to the breeder to visit the clutch a few times during the hand-feeding stage.
One baby may take a shine to your more than the others in the clutch.
Take the chick a week after it is weaned (can feed itself).
It you take it right when weaned the trauma of the move may cause it to go back to needing hand-feeding.
If you are not skilled at this it can quickly turn into an emergency.
Birds fly so they tend to not store much fat; they have a fast metabolism so they MUST eat often, babies even more so.

If you live too far away from a breeder you'll may have the bird shipped, flown, to you.
Be at the airport to pick up the chick.
Breeders say this is no problem (Of course, what else are they going to say.)
But it is expensive and I assume very stressful for the baby.

The third choice is getting a hand fed chick from a pet shop, but I'm not a trusting person about age, how good the breeder was, health and personality and temperament of the chick, and don't know if the employees treated the birds well or gave them enough attention.
I also don't really want my bird to carry home the vocabulary of 20 other parrot species.

Last choice would be a "used" bird, and it should be perhaps half the price of a new one, or less, and they should throw in the cage IMO.
I say this because there are many parrot rescue agencies trying to place parrots.
So many people get a parrot without doing their homework and it turns into a disaster, then the rejected bird often has a damaged personality.
Of course there's no guarantee regarding the order of these four choices, it just increases the odds of a happy bird and a good fit for your lifestyle.

It sounds like you found a good bird but check it out thoroughly.
Bring others to handle the bird and get an avian vet to do an exam before you commit.
Find out how much time the bird was alone every day, and how much time it was out of the cage interacting with humans.
How many humans in the old home?
Are there dogs or cats in the old or the new home?
Dogs may be okay but I heard cats have something in their saliva that is literally a poisonous venom to birds.
As much as you can make things in your home similar to what the bird is accustomed to, especially the diet.

A month ago there was a hand fed Senegal chick in a local mom and pop pet shop that was a sweetheart!
FYI, the price was $385, and I suspect that's on the low side for a pet shop.
If you happen to be in Southern California maybe admin could forward the contact info.
I've seen Senegals at local big chains like PetSmart and PetCo for $700+.
I haven't checked recently but I'd guess a breeder would charge $200 to $300.

 

[kenny]

Here she is flirting with one of the contractors who worked on our house.
She's just a green bundle of love.

 

[Verdy]

Kenny -

Thank you SO much for your prompt response and for all of that wonderful, well-thought out advice. It's taken me quite a few months thought to finally get up the courage to even contact a breeder, simply because I know having a pet like this, (or any pet for that matter), is a huge responsibility, similar to having a toddler. From what I've read online, Senegal owners seem to have mixed opinions, I've read forums/FAQs pages about them where they range from being the sweetest, easy going, gentle birds to people who claim they're maniacal little devils who bite/tear everything (or everyone) within their reach. I suppose therein lies my battle, wondering whether or not the bird will like me, if I'll have issues presenting the bird to family or friends when they visit, etc.

My family in the past has had several pet parrots, and I was raised around chickens, horses, cows, and other animals. My grandmother owned one that only SHE could touch, if anyone else got within reach of that bird, they were in for a real treat. My sister however, owns a larger parrot, who when given time will adjust to a new presence in the house, and will eventually let that person scratch its head, and even step up to their hand. So all in all, I'm not that much of a stranger to parrot behavior, I'm well aware that they can be rambunctious, and even somewhat volatile at times, you just have to learn how to read their warnings and not cross the line.

Unfortunately where I live, there are no close breeders. All of the ones within my reach are 8+ hours away, and will only ship the bird to me, which is why I held off on the breeder I had been talking to. The bird itself was already $750, plus $180 for shipping via Delta, $35 for a small carrying crate, and apart from that I would have to purchase a cage, toys, food, treats, etc. When I looked at all of that at the end of the day, it was shocking that such a small bird would end up racking well over $1000! Like you, I don't necessarily trust large chain stores like PetCo, or PetSmart, every time I go into one of those stores, the birds just seem downtrodden and miserable in the cages.

As for the other Senegal that I've been considering - the owner is including the bird's cage, toys, and any remaining food that it has left in his asking price, which is $475. I have been drilling him with MANY questions about the bird's well-being, if he has his talons/beak filed, if he has ever been clipped, his average noise level, if he has ever shown signs of feather plucking, etc. So far the owner has answered all of my questions sincerely, from what I can tell. He has specified what foods the Senegal likes to eat, that he's out of his cage during the afternoon/late evening, and that there are no other pets in his home. I will definitely be checking out that book you recommended, and will ask a friend of mine who owns a macaw if there's anything else I should be worried about.

Once again, I appreciate all of the information, if anything I hope to be as close as you are to Puppy if/when I get my bird. Your relationship to her is truly admirable, there's no doubt in my mind that I was right to ask for you opinion.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Hi Verdy,
I'm a bird lover too.
Kenny's post was excellent- and I agree with pretty much everything he said
About owning a bird- there's a few aspects people don't consider, which is why many parrots end up for sale "used"
Noise is a factor for many.
A small bird can make a LARGE sound. From what Kenny's written, he sounds like the ideal bird owner- many people don't have the amount of time to devote, and when a bird feels neglected, the noise lever can go WAY up there.
The other factor is mess- they generally love to throw seeds around- and chew on things.
I had an amazing Yellow Naped Amazon once.
He got out of the cage while I was at work found a box I had hidden and chewed up about $500 in cash I had stashed inside. I mean DESTROYED it.
I wasn't very happy with Sampson that day.....

As far as what to get n terms of age, Kenny really encapsulated a lot of how I feel.
Although, in the NYC area, there's actually a fair amount of really good stores where one can buy a younger chick safely- but he's correct, they'll have already been exposed to all the other parrots noises, and inevitably pick some up.
Still if you can find a young bird- even in a store, it would be amazing.
I LOVE caiques- I think that of all the psittacines, they are among the smartest, and best pets.
They are also generally 3 times the price of a Senegal.

 

[kenny]

Hi RD , nice to 'meet' another 'bird person'.

Yes Vera, having a parrot IS like having a kid so it's a decision not to be entered into lightly.
Actually, since you said this I think you will do well and your bird will be very happy.

Yes, like all species, Senegals vary.
Some are angels and some are devils.
Puppy is 95% angel, but definitely has a little devil in her too.

IMHO how a parrot turns out is 87.021547% dependent on the bird's humans.
If a bird becomes a noisy, bitting Tasmanian devil I blame the humans for not learning how to meet the bird's needs.
Parrots ain't dogs!
Reading that book will illuminate much of this, and help turn you into someone a parrot will like.

Yes, as RD said many Parrots end up in rescue orgs because the humans didn't learn what they were getting themselves into.

Yes parrots are messy and not for the Martha Stewart types living in Architectural Digest flawless homes.
Sometimes Puppy will squeeze the juice out of fruit, then fling the pulp onto the wall.
No matter how often you change the newspaper or clean the grill on the bottom of the cage the bird is going to step in it.
They will have accidents and you'll have to clean poop off your sleeve, or the arm of your couch. (leather or naugahyde is better than cloth upholstery)
Potty training is possible but, compared to previous birds, I'm having trouble potty training Puppy.

All parrots will find things to chew on.
There is a saying, "A bird's gotta chew what a bird's gotta chew."
It's my fault if I leave her near electrical cords or piles of cash. OMG RD!
Half the shirts in my closet have collars that are chewed up; so, I have two sets of clothes.
I've read that parrots chew a lot because they have to keep their beaks and associated muscles in shape for their short nest-building season.
If you are the kind who has a house full of expensive perfect things and a clean freak maybe you should not get a parrot.
Yes you must make adjustments in your life and home, but the payoff is SOOOO worth it though certainly a parrot is not for everyone.

From day one I've restricted Puppy to 3 or 4 bird-safe places in the house, perches, playgrounds and countertops.
I cut plexiglas to keep her on one side of the kitchen counter which is lined with newspaper that is changed often.
Parrots want to be were the action is, and that is with YOU.
Leaving the room of a wing-clipped bird induces stress.
Wild parrots hang out together all day in a flock, so as much as possible I try to keep her with me.
But, since the wings are clipped I don't have to worry about the bird chewing up the piano or drowning in the toilet or breaking her neck flying into a mirror or a window.

Mothers, and hopefully fathers, of human babies and toddlers accept that they must clean up a lot and change diapers.
They do not love their babies any less for being poopie food processors entertained by dropping food on the floor, or punish their kids for being bad.
That's just how babies and parrots are.
We accept the lowly job of a nanny, and we do it out of love.

Senegals are fearless and bold.
Many have been killed by larger parrots, or dogs, because Senegals don't know they are small.
On the flip side Senegals are know to suddenly and irrationally display terror of, or aggression towards, objects they ignored before, like a paper towel in a moving hand, a toaster or a fork.
Senegals cannot scream as loudly as a conure or the larger parrots ... but they CAN use their voice effectively to demand attention.

Puppy has trained me to not put my hand in her cage.
She bit me hard enough to remove some flesh.
Since then I use a stick to remove her from her cage or any of her areas.
No problem, and no hard feelings or punishment for the bite.
When out of her territory the green monster turns back into my sweet, playful, loving little butterball.
This split personality makes no sense to humans, but respecting the bird's autonomy is essential to the relationship.

Vera you wrote, "I'm not that much of a stranger to parrot behavior, I'm well aware that they can be rambunctious, and even somewhat volatile at times, you just have to learn how to read their warnings and not cross the line."
Yes Yes Yes. You get it.
The parrot is entitled to draw its lines and it's up to their humans to learn to read the birds body language.

 

[kenny]

Vera, all things considered I'd strongly consider that 2-year old.
If money's not a consideration I'd go for baby.
But if a couple visits with the 2-year old go well I'd just grab it.
Senegals live 50+ years in captivity so 48 years is still groovy.

About the cage ... the larger the better.
Budget maybe $500+ for a new cage with that power-coat paint that the beak can't chew off.
We found a very fine used one locally for $100 on craigslist.
Avoid those cheap cages, painted black, made in Mexico, especially round ones.
Birds like corners so get a rectangular one, and avoid cages made for smaller birds like cocktails since they are no match for a Senegal's powerful beak.
Get a cage that has at least two side with horizontal bars for easier climbing.

Lower cages will mean the bird's eyes are lower which is good for the pecking order thing compared to a high cage.
Keeping the bird's eyes low reinforces the bird is below you in the pecking order.
It's also the reason Puppy is not allowed on shoulders.

 

[sonnyjane]

I'm a bird trainer at a zoo. Actually I'm at a bird conference right now! Kenny is so, so right. There is a reason that many people surrender their birds. I think it's best to consider the WORST case scenario - that you get a noisy, aggressive, bitey parrot that doesn't necessarily like you, and decide if that's something you would deal with. Obviously you hope for a different outcome and there are some things that you can do to modify behavior, but not completely. If you're going to acquire a bird that lives 50 more years, you have to consider what you'll do if it's not the happy, perfect relationship that you hope for. Fortunately, you're already doing research and asking for advice which makes you more prepared than a large number of bird owners. If the difference in price is not too great, it's always easiest to get a baby that can become imprinted on you. If, however, you can successfully interact with the older one as Kenny said, then maybe that will work out. Good luck!

And Kenny, if you ever want to talk birds, let me know! Potty training came up during the presentations today. Only teach it if your bird has access to the "potty" area allllllll day long with no restrictions.

 

[kenny]

SJ, yes I'd love to talk birds with an expert like you.
Were you thinking here on PS or offline somehow?
If here on PS you can start a new thread answering my questions below so we don't hijack Vera's thread.

How can I potty train my four year old Senegal?
How can I get her to eat more pellets, or should I not bother since her diet is about 75% fresh food and vary varied?
How can I train her to not be so obsessed with my SO?
I trim her nails and primary feathers myself.
I have to hold her head gently.
She doesn't seem to mind too much but is it true it harms our relationship and I should therefore be paying a groomer to do it?
I originally used to wrap her in a towel to do it so she couldn't see me or the clipper, but I think that was more stressful for her.

Do you know of a good online parrot forum with competent experts?
Do you know of videos I can see to teach me more about parrots, especially how to give a PET parrot a happy and fulfilled life?

If by chance you are also in Southern California I'd love to meet somehow if admin would exchange our emails.
If you'd like to correct anything I've written about parrots be my guest, it won't hurt my feelings and I'm all ears.