Calling Gary Holloway...Argyle mine question

[AprilBaby]

I was bored last night and was watching the AWFUL Jewelry Television channel. They were having a "special" on diamonds from the Argyle mines. The diamonds were absolutely TERRIBLE! All included and about I5 (my grading

) and the color was "candlelight". All they kep saying was BUY NOW because the Arglye mines are closing for good in the next 18 months. Is this true? And are all the diamonds really that bad? The color seemed to come from the yukky inclusions in the stones ...a 2.4 ct was selling for $799! What a bargain!

A .20 was selling for a whopping $24.95! I should have bought the whole lot I guess because these will be so RARE and VALUABLE!

 

[kenny]

I hope Garry has the latest but since it's sleepy-time in Oz so . . . per Wikipedia . . . Argyle is currently transitioning from an open pit mine to an underground mine.
Per this video, Argyle open pit mining may be ending but new underground mining may extend Argyle's output another 10 years (8 per Wiki).
These two videos are old but still interesting.

Link

More

Wiki Article

Jewelry TV hawking low-end goods (even from Argyle) is not surprising and nothing to get excited about. (JTV appeals to emotion not reason.)
I would never buy a colored diamond without a GIA report, and doing lots of homework.

Snip from Wiki about Argyle's dregs:
The diamonds produced at the Argyle diamond mine are of an average low quality.
Only 5% of mined diamonds are of gem quality, compared to a worldwide average of 20%; of the remaining 95%, they are about evenly split between classifications of "near gem quality" and industrial grade.
80% of Argyle diamonds are brown, followed by 16% yellow, 2% white, 2% grey, and less than 1% pink and green.

More from Wiki about Argyle's future:
Underground expansion
In 2005, Rio Tinto was given the go ahead to a future expansion project, moving it from an open pit to an underground mine.[5]
The project is predominantly an underground construction requiring high quality development and engineering excellence.
The Block Cave is expected to operate until 2018 using the latest in mining technology, including Sandvik's auto mining technology.
The project is due to be completed by 2010.

 

[AprilBaby]

Thanks Kenny! The stuff was so terrible yet they kept saying how rare and how cheap($) it was. They should have said CHEAP as in C***. I suppose an uneducated consumer would have jumped on the chance to own 2 cts for $799. After all, isn''t size everything?

 

[kenny]

Date: 4/24/2010 6:14:53 PM
Author: AprilBaby
. . . isn't size everything?

Well there is technique, but that's another forum.

I feel bad for all the buyers of those $700 2-carat "pinks".
When they hear about what J-Lo's pink costs they are going to feel like they were such smart shoppers.

I must confess I have bought from JTV.
It was one of those collection of 50 or so cheapie, included, poorly-cut scratched-up-thrown-together grab bags, but it was only around $50 and I knew it was junk.
For all I know they may all be synthetic, but still, some may be real low-cost minerals and they are fun and cool to just loupe and learn.
I'll take some pics and post about it some day.

 

[AprilBaby]

ROFL!

 

[joxxxelyn]

They won''t shut anything until the cost of making sure it''s depleted outweighs what they continue to find, hence going underground. And I know that most people don''t understand clarity, but I5? ... Really? That''s a bit much, especially for TV where all of your BS is documented in real time. Come to think of it, I think I saw some really "rare" diamonds on faycullen recently while browsing. http://www.faycullen.com/rings/800/f1015r9d.html

This time the marketing gimmick is that it''s "eco" instead of being the "rare Argyle find." And they don''t even have the nerve to call it included; they use the less understood term ''pique.''

 

[kenny]

Thank you Fay Cullen.
Lopsy Fugs has finally been put to shame.

SNIP:
This tenderly-colored, environmentally conscious rose-cut diamond with its inherent natural beauty is flat-mounted in a finely chiseled orbicular setting.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Hi April Baby,
Great question - Argyle has the cheapest and the most expensive diamonds in the world.
Less than 1% would be better than G SI - most are brown series, and almost all, if not all are + strong blue.
The mine produced 1/3rd of the worlds rough when it started 25 years ago. The average price per carat is a bit over $10 today, and the avg weight is about 0.10ct - but they average about 6ct per tonne and many mines would be happy with 6ct per 100 tonne.

But the pinks are stunning!

Imagine a big pick up truck - that is the annual rough output - much will end up as industrial abrasives. The pinks would half fill the ash tray!

Date: 4/24/2010 2:26:31 PM
Author: kenny
I hope Garry has the latest but since it''s sleepy-time in Oz so . . . per Wikipedia . . . Argyle is currently transitioning from an open pit mine to an underground mine.
Per this video, Argyle open pit mining may be ending but new underground mining may extend Argyle''s output another 10 years (8 per Wiki).
These two videos are old but still interesting.

Link

More

Wiki Article

Jewelry TV hawking low-end goods (even from Argyle) is not surprising and nothing to get excited about. (JTV appeals to emotion not reason.)
I would never buy a colored diamond without a GIA report, and doing lots of homework.

Snip from Wiki about Argyle''s dregs:
The diamonds produced at the Argyle diamond mine are of an average low quality.
Only 5% of mined diamonds are of gem quality, compared to a worldwide average of 20%; of the remaining 95%, they are about evenly split between classifications of ''near gem quality'' and industrial grade.
80% of Argyle diamonds are brown, followed by 16% yellow, 2% white, 2% grey, and less than 1% pink and green.

More from Wiki about Argyle''s future:
Underground expansion
In 2005, Rio Tinto was given the go ahead to a future expansion project, moving it from an open pit to an underground mine.[5]
The project is predominantly an underground construction requiring high quality development and engineering excellence.
The Block Cave is expected to operate until 2018 using the latest in mining technology, including Sandvik''s auto mining technology.
The project is due to be completed by 2010.

Great research Kenny.
That mining method is what is planned.

The Australian Gemmologist just had an excellent article by John Chapman and others - not online tho I think.

The underground mine was mothballed during the GFC - Rio bought a huge US alumina company and overspent.
The work is apparently now proceeding at a slower pace - but it will be difficult.
They have huge monsoonal rains and have planned for the mine to flood and stop for about 3 months a year! They will need all the electricity to pump the water out.
They suggest 2012 as a start date - I think later is likely. They suggest 6 years of operation at about 1/3rd original output - 10million cts a year - I bet they do 2/3rds and last longer.

We have seen pink diamond clarity and durability reduce as the mine got deeper.

If the values hold up, and costs are contained, they could start a lower level and extend the life longer - but generally further down the pipe leads to more disolution as the rocks stayed very hot for a few million years longer = smaller more damaged goods.

 

[AprilBaby]

Thanks so much Gary!

 

[Rockdiamond]

Cool information!

I have seen some of the Argyle pinks- and the color is stunning!

AS is the price...the stone in the photo was a .34ct round GIA graded Fancy Intense Pink- there was a nice chip on the girdle- yet it would still have cost almost $100k per carat!

 

[Rockdiamond]

In this shot you can see the chip pretty clearly

 

[missydebby]

Date: 4/25/2010 12:53:42 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Cool information!


I have seen some of the Argyle pinks- and the color is stunning!


AS is the price...the stone in the photo was a .34ct round GIA graded Fancy Intense Pink- there was a nice chip on the girdle- yet it would still have cost almost $100k per carat!

WOW!~

 

[kenny]

Date: 4/25/2010 12:53:42 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
AS is the price...the stone in the photo was a .34ct round GIA graded Fancy Intense Pink- there was a nice chip on the girdle- yet it would still have cost almost $100k per carat!

$100k per carat for THAT?
RD I think that vendor either made a mistake, or was trying to rip you off.

Here are two GIA Fancy Intense Pinks (with no price-lowering color modifiers) that only took 30 seconds to find.
Both have clarity that looks a zillion times better than yours, no huge chips, one is 1 point heavier and the other 4 points lighter, and they cost only $12K and $20K per carat.

First comp

I realize every diamond is unique and pricing colored diamonds is complex, the actual hue of the color can vary within the same grade, emerald asscher and rounds command a premium blah blah blah, but that chipped polluted one you posted being worth 5 to 8 times these two is simply not plausible.
Pricing on colored diamonds is mysterious, but ain't that mysterious.
It is also possible vendors can exploit the mystery to take advantage of buyers.

Clearly a vendor was just trying to plant unrealistically-high price expectations in the minds of potential buyers for his own financial gain.
Shame shame shame on that vendor.

This is a great example of the importance of doing your own homework and not trusting vendors (especially with naturally-colored diamonds) - or rather, trusting and verifying.

 

[kenny]

Second comp

This 0.30 ct GIA Fancy Intense Pink is only $3628 even thought it has that highly-desirable, much bragged-about and always pointed-out hue of bubble gum pink.
And look, it even has a Marilyn Monroe beauty spot.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

You could both be right.
What RD showed is what I mentioned - that the better colored material we are seeing is heavily fractured (forget surface reaching feathers!!!).

Now from RD''s 2 photo''s - there is about a 10x price difference. The first photo is a fancy deep brownish shade and the close up is a desirable purplish baby pink.
Forget about GIA''s color intensity system too.

Argyles PP, P and BP numbered system is best for pinks.
I will find the chart on my site later (off for a bike ride, bye

)

 

[kenny]

Thanks Garry.

 

[Rockdiamond]

The stone was presented as way overpriced to me- and I agreed- but the reason given for the extreme price was that it was confirmed to come from the argyle mine.
Also true that if I had actually wanted to buy it, I likely could have negotiated maybe 15%.
The point is that stones from the Argyle mine that are pure pink in the deeper shades are said to have the most exceptional color- and trade for premiums.

Even if I could have bought it at half what they were asking I could never see buying a stone with a chip in it.

Also remember when comparing prices, it's my experience that round diamonds will bring a higher price per carat compared to cushion, oval or radiant- sometimes a lot higher.


Have a great ride Garry!

 

[kenny]

Date: 4/25/2010 4:28:35 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Forget about GIA's color intensity system too.
Argyles PP, P and BP numbered system is best for pinks.

)

Garry is this what you are referring to?
Since GIA's pink color grading system is so imprecise and hue (and therefor prices) within the same GIA grade can vary greatly, how can a buyer establish which Argyle color grade an Argyle pink is?

Source for chart

 

[kenny]

Garry, if we have the Argyle serial number that has been laser etched onto the girdle with the Argyle logo (see pic below) could Argyle look it up its Argyle grade for us before or after a sale?

I assume Argyle etches these serial numbers and their logo because their website says all Argyle pinks are polished by Argyle.
Do you know if every Argyle gem-quality diamond gets one of these Argyle SNs? or just the more valuable ones?

The Argyle grade clearly affects price and is is a smaller bullseye than GIA's color grade, so it would be useful for a buyer to know the Argyle grade of pinks under consideration.

I wonder if vendors know and use the Argyle color grade to set the price but do not disclose the grade to the consumer.
If the consumer knew it he/she it would take some of the mystery out of pricing of pinks - which I'd imagine vendors would not like.
Information, after all, is power.

 

[Rockdiamond]

My experience that stones which are marketed as "Argyle" pinks are so rare that it''s a moot point. I''m talking about fine quality stones inscribed as the one Kenny posted- as opposed to Jewelry Television Drek.

The whole idea of them being cut and inscribed by Argyle would be useful Kenny, it there were more argyle stones on the market.

I agree that in some ways Argyles classification system has a more logical progression compared to GIA.

But it''s also important to note that GIA''s system has more complexity - with the modifiers especially.
Also that in the real world it''s far less obvious which pink look which way- as compared to the Argyle chart, which makes it look pretty much cut and dried.

I can totally understand Garry''s disdain for GIA''s color system, but it''s proven to be the best color grading system in practical use IMO

 

[kenny]

The Argyle logo and SN even gets recorded on GIA reports.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 4/25/2010 5:50:39 PM
Author: kenny
Garry, if we have the Argyle serial number that has been laser etched onto the girdle with the Argyle logo (see pic below) could Argyle look it up its Argyle grade for us before or after a sale?
I do not know if they do it for the public, but for us valuers and customers they will. But they only keep records for better colors over 0.25ct. They polish the bigger better themselves and they farm out the smaller goods to 3 overseas firms who they watch like hawks - and often drop one and replace them to keep them all honest. But yes - they do tightly control and monopolize the pinks and blue-violets.
I assume Argyle etches these serial numbers and their logo because their website says all Argyle pinks are polished by Argyle.
Do you know if every Argyle gem-quality diamond gets one of these Argyle SNs? or just the more valuable ones? Only the better +0.25ct I believe. And GIA always mention whatever is inscribed on any and every stone - a problem because if the owner has had H&A inscribed GIA will always mention it - even if the stone is dross.

The Argyle grade clearly affects price and is is a smaller bullseye than GIA''s color grade, so it would be useful for a buyer to know the Argyle grade of pinks under consideration.

I wonder if vendors know and use the Argyle color grade to set the price but do not disclose the grade to the consumer. I have an overseas big color diamond specialist vendor visiting in a few minutes - they will rarely share the argyle info - only ever if it suits them to ask for more $$$$.
If the consumer knew it he/she it would take some of the mystery out of pricing of pinks - which I''d imagine vendors would not like.
Information, after all, is power. Exactly, but even within say 3P some stones are worth 2x more than others - it is a very dangerous and risky business for those who have little experiance.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 4/25/2010 6:30:08 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
I agree that in some ways Argyles classification system has a more logical progression compared to GIA.

But it''s also important to note that GIA''s system has more complexity - with the modifiers especially.
Also that in the real world it''s far less obvious which pink look which way- as compared to the Argyle chart, which makes it look pretty much cut and dried.

I can totally understand Garry''s disdain for GIA''s color system, but it''s proven to be the best color grading system in practical use IMO

The Argyle system is best for Pinks - GIA try to use the same system for all and any color - and it simply does not have the finesse for very very valuable colors - the grades are far to widely spaced and the market differences make their system inefficient.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Here are some examples.
The big radiant had 2 different certs from GIA - one is a full cert 1.02ct SI2 and the other 1.03ct 1/2 cert (no clarity).
The SI2 is really a mid to low I1 with a straight big open gletz and reflecting large easily visible crystal.
The US$ asking price with a typical Pricescope drop ship markup is a bit less than 1/4 million.

The very nice 10 point stones are one hundreth the price - about $2,500 each and fairly clean.

The very sweet little cushion is about $15k and is VS1.
This is FYI only and not offers to sell as I am a pure B&M for local shoppers.