Calling all Old Cut Experts - What are these stones?

[arkieb1]

A few months ago I tried on a ring in a local Antique shop here in Australia. It had the most fire and sparkle I have EVER seen in old cuts, it seriously out blinged a well cut round modern brilliant. I didn't get to take any pics, but I notice they have one up on their website which I have cut and pasted.

They had a proper valuation and the valuer described the stones as "Rose cuts". I know there are several different types of Rose cuts but I don't think they are Rose cuts do you? They describe the ring as a "london bridge ring" circa 1880. The stones are 1.20 carats, .90. .85, .75 and .65. It is $19500 so I am not thinking of buying it and only three of the stones fit across my finger anyway it was huge on me.

Stones have a small tables, big high crowns, are round to a cushion shape, the centre one is quite roundish, the two on each end were roundish too but the two in the middle are cushion shaped. I am dying to know what you all think the stones are? Sorry its a side on pic, that is the only one I can get. I am not sure some of these valuers here in Australia see enough old cuts to describe them accurately, do you think they are in fact "Rose cuts" as described on the valuation or OECS or Old Mine cuts?

They look like old mine cuts side on in the pics, but in real life looking top down they don't have the maltese cross you see in Old Miners, they also don't have big cutlet that you see in early OECS, and the fact the valuation and the seller kept calling them Rose cuts has thrown me....

Thanks!!!!!

 

[kenny]

Cool ring.
They don't look like rose cuts to me, which have flat bottoms.
I think I see girdles and diamond material below the girdles.

 

[arkieb1]

Cool ring.
They don't look like rose cuts to me, which have flat bottoms.
I think I see girdles and diamond material below the girdles.

Hi Kenny,

No I didn't think they look like rose cuts either, but I read a thread on here a while ago saying there are a number of different rose cuts, I always associated rose cuts with less cuts in the diamond, less sparkle and flatter looking too.

They are quite interesting in real life because they don't have the maltese cross pattern like a Old Mine cut, so I assume that only leaves some type of early antique cushion or an early OEC, again they lack really noticeable cutlets that you normally see in early OECs, and the bottom half of them was fairly shallow like transitional diamonds, there wasn't much on the bottom side of the girdle so its got me wondering what exactly they are. I have seen single cut melee, giving off similar fire, so less cuts and really big flashes of sparkle is the only thing visual comparable to them, so maybe they are some weird type of Rose cut or early OEC. The tall crown gives them heaps of fire, I was sorry handing it back they were that sparkly I really fell in love with them!!!!

 

[kenny]

Very cool.
Historical diamonds are fascinating.

 

[arkieb1]

I am hoping someone with Al Gilberston's book or some of the old cut gurus will step in and say yes you can in fact get rose cuts like this, or no, the Aussie valuer probably has no idea, saw them as really having little below the girdle and mislabelled early OECS or cushions or whatever they are....

 

[chrono]

I think they are OMCs; not all are the same design, some do not exhibit any Maltese cross. I'm thinking they are likely to be very early OMCs.

 

[yennyfire]

They don't look like rose cuts to me either. I think Chrono may be right....either way, it's a gorgeous ring!!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Not rose cuts. They definitely have crowns and tables. So they have to be in the OMC and OEC category. The culets are not always big on OEC's, so that does not rule that out.

 

[arkieb1]

I think they are OMCs; not all are the same design, some do not exhibit any Maltese cross. I'm thinking they are likely to be very early OMCs.

Maybe they are really very early Old Miners, but they didn't look like ones I have seen, but perhaps I have only seen later cut ones....
Having virtually no cutlet is unusual for old cuts. When you look at them side on they look like OECS but when I flipped the ring over 90% of the diamond is in the top part above the girdle so they have a big crown and almost no pavilion part to them. The do have a point or tip, which made me think they aren't Rose cuts. I actually pointed out to the shop owner after I saw the valuation certificate that they have a tip and don't look like Rose cuts at all and she said the women who valued them was an "Old Cut Expert." That has made me wonder if you can get Rose cuts that are like this....

I have seen a lot of smaller old Miners and antique cushions the ones that I have seen that have no depth to them don't sparkle in the same crazy way these diamonds did. These stones had an insane amount of fire given the bottom was so shallow. When I got home from the shop I looked at pics and videos of Old Mine cuts on the internet and they didn't look like any of them either. I am not a particular fan of Old Mine cuts (I prefer OECs) and I LOVE this ring!!!

When I picked up the ring before I looked closely at the stones I thought they were early OECS, then, when I really looked at the stones and got other rings out to compare next to them they didn't look like them exactly. They looked like they had less facets than an OEC, I held up two OECS and an early cushion and the stones didn't look like either. Perhaps it IS just because they are earlier cuts, I know Old cuts are all different but these were really very cool.

I went and looked at a heap of old cuts last week, looked at a heap of much smaller stones because that is all we mainly can get here, and I have still never seen anything like them, not that I am an expert, but I am just really curious to know what they are. I wish I could have taken pics top down to show you, but its the kind of place if you whip out a camera they call security and drag you out of there.....

 

[hippi_pixi]

the ignorance of our antique dealers is a constant shock to me. i recently went looking for an antique eternity band and the lady i talked to initially had no idea what an eternity band was and after i explained to her what it was she said there is no such thing as an antique eternity band cos they didn't make them back then.

what part of Aus are you in? I'm on the sunny coast QLD.

they look like OMC's to me

 

[arkieb1]

the ignorance of our antique dealers is a constant shock to me. i recently went looking for an antique eternity band and the lady i talked to initially had no idea what an eternity band was and after i explained to her what it was she said there is no such thing as an antique eternity band cos they didn't make them back then.

what part of Aus are you in? I'm on the sunny coast QLD.

they look like OMC's to me

BrisVegas so not far from you!!! That picture above is quite deceptive, if I looked at it I would go yep Old Mine cuts, top down in real life they look less like Old Mine Cuts....

If you are after Antique stuff I know where to go in Brisbane, I saw a 5+ carat transitional in a shop in the city last week. It had a story to it, the jeweller had sold it to the original owner for his sweetheart who became his wife years ago. They had stayed friends and the guy had bought jewellery from him over the years. His wife has passed away so he bought it back to the same guy he bought it off to sell it for him.... I worked out I can rock 5 carats - no problem!!! And no I didn't buy it, but I did have fun trying it on.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Total ignorance is all it is. They don't know what a rose cut diamond is, clearly. All OEC's do not have large culets. So they certainly can be OEC's.

 

[arkieb1]

Total ignorance is all it is. They don't know what a rose cut diamond is, clearly. All OEC's do not have large culets. So they certainly can be OEC's.

Yes it probably IS ignorance, we don't see a lot of old cuts here at all generally. I guess I was secretly hoping there was some strange form of Rose Cut I had never read or heard about!!! It astounds me that a so called expert can't clearly see it's not a Rose cut if that is indeed the case.

 

[ericad]

Hard to say without a face up pic, but from your description they sound like OMC's or OEC's. Which is what they look like from the pic you posted, though again, no way to say for sure without seeing some different angles. Could be mixed cuts too - an OEC center, with OMC sides.

 

[arkieb1]

Hard to say without a face up pic, but from your description they sound like OMC's or OEC's. Which is what they look like from the pic you posted, though again, no way to say for sure without seeing some different angles. Could be mixed cuts too - an OEC center, with OMC sides.

Hi Erica, I am glad you had a look as well, yes this could be what is confusing me, they could be a mix of OECS and OMCs. I think they are quite early ones as they don't look exactly like later ones I have seen!!! Its a stunning ring in real life, if it was cheaper I would think about buying it, but I would have to get the stones reset or badly mess with it which would be a huge shame because it was so big it didn't even fit my thumb - you know a ring is too big for you when its too big for your thumb....

The salesperson suggested I make a three stone ring out of it that is what fit across my finger and turn the two stones on the ends into earrings, which I thought about, but it seems a shame to go cutting up a piece like this and there really aren't quality jewellers here that would do a good job of it...

 

[Hera]

Hard to say without a face up pic, but from your description they sound like OMC's or OEC's. Which is what they look like from the pic you posted, though again, no way to say for sure without seeing some different angles. Could be mixed cuts too - an OEC center, with OMC sides.

Hi Erica, I am glad you had a look as well, yes this could be what is confusing me, they could be a mix of OECS and OMCs. I think they are quite early ones as they don't look exactly like later ones I have seen!!! Its a stunning ring in real life, if it was cheaper I would think about buying it, but I would have to get the stones reset or badly mess with it which would be a huge shame because it was so big it didn't even fit my thumb - you know a ring is too big for you when its too big for your thumb....

The salesperson suggested I make a three stone ring out of it that is what fit across my finger and turn the two stones on the ends into earrings, which I thought about, but it seems a shame to go cutting up a piece like this and there really aren't quality jewellers here that would do a good job of it...

I was doing some reading on old cuts and I came across something written by Al Gilberston and it said that there were transitional cuts in between all of the diamond cuts even though we only acknowledge readily transition cuts between OECs and RBs. If these were a combination of both OMC and OEC, that could be what he's referring to.

Whenever I see stones like what you describe I always think late omc/early oec whichever is more prominent.

 

[arkieb1]

Hard to say without a face up pic, but from your description they sound like OMC's or OEC's. Which is what they look like from the pic you posted, though again, no way to say for sure without seeing some different angles. Could be mixed cuts too - an OEC center, with OMC sides.

Hi Erica, I am glad you had a look as well, yes this could be what is confusing me, they could be a mix of OECS and OMCs. I think they are quite early ones as they don't look exactly like later ones I have seen!!! Its a stunning ring in real life, if it was cheaper I would think about buying it, but I would have to get the stones reset or badly mess with it which would be a huge shame because it was so big it didn't even fit my thumb - you know a ring is too big for you when its too big for your thumb....

The salesperson suggested I make a three stone ring out of it that is what fit across my finger and turn the two stones on the ends into earrings, which I thought about, but it seems a shame to go cutting up a piece like this and there really aren't quality jewellers here that would do a good job of it...

I was doing some reading on old cuts and I came across something written by Al Gilberston and it said that there were transitional cuts in between all of the diamond cuts even though we only acknowledge readily transition cuts between OECs and RBs. If these were a combination of both OMC and OEC, that could be what he's referring to.

Whenever I see stones like what you describe I always think late omc/early oec whichever is more prominent.

O.K now that does make sense to me, because they do actually look like a weird combination of both and unlike proper OMCs and later OECS that I have seen!!! You might have cracked it!!!!

 

[hippi_pixi]

to mistake omc's and oecs for each other i think is acceptable. with some stones it is truly debatable if it should be classified as one or the other and even then it can be a matter of opinion. but to mistake a rose cut for an omc or oec... rose cuts are just so distinctive! as soon as an aussie jeweller says something ignorant i just stop paying attention to anything else they say after that. such a shame there's no appreciation for antique stones here.

arkie I grew up in south brisvegas! studied on the gold coast and now live on the sunshine coast. I haven't come across anyone else on here from QLD have you? all the aussies seem to live in perth which antique store did you see the ring in in brisbane? I'd love to check out some new bling. if you're ever in Noosa check out isabella's antique jewellery on the main strip. she usually has some great larger OEC and OMC's and lots of colored stones.

 

[motownmama]

Did you buy it?

 

[bunnycat]

I have seen some people call any old/antique diamond a "rose cut" despite the fact that it clearly has a pavilion. Rose cuts are flat on bottom and there definitely are some intermediate cuts that are somewhere between an OEC and OMC. I have a little one that my jeweler thinks is something between the 2 that I'm keeping to make in to a pendant one day.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Not rose cuts. Look like OECs to me. Seem pretty round to be OMC, but there are stones in between the classic OMB and classic OEC that are rounder but have more of am OMC faceting.

 

[arkieb1]

Did you buy it?

I was thinking about it because I love it - but I have been wanting to buy a single larger OEC anyway and unfortunately this ring is too big to fit on my thumb let alone my ring finger... If I purchased it I would have to either remove the stones & buy a new setting or chop it up and remake it because only 3 stones fit across my finger and it seems a shame to chop it up to me!!!! Its also $19500.00 currently so its not a great price.

I posted it because I have been wondering for weeks what it is, I have concluded its either a transitional between a OMC and an OEC or there is a mix of OECS and OMCS in the stones....

 

[arkieb1]

to mistake omc's and oecs for each other i think is acceptable. with some stones it is truly debatable if it should be classified as one or the other and even then it can be a matter of opinion. but to mistake a rose cut for an omc or oec... rose cuts are just so distinctive! as soon as an aussie jeweller says something ignorant i just stop paying attention to anything else they say after that. such a shame there's no appreciation for antique stones here.

arkie I grew up in south brisvegas! studied on the gold coast and now live on the sunshine coast. I haven't come across anyone else on here from QLD have you? all the aussies seem to live in perth which antique store did you see the ring in in brisbane? I'd love to check out some new bling. if you're ever in Noosa check out isabella's antique jewellery on the main strip. she usually has some great larger OEC and OMC's and lots of colored stones.

Hi,

There are a very small number of antique stores in the city. I paid $52.00 for 2hours 10 mins parking the other day under the David Jones building, which is ridiculous so I don't go in there that often. I went to a couple of antique stores and Tiffany's and a pawnbroker that sometimes has interesting stuff. Some of the pawn brokers here (we are taking 6 to 10 years ago) used to have great antique rings now and then but these days its slim pickings, I went into one I used to go to in the burbs and they said there is a lady who owns a shop that goes to all the pawn shops and buys up all the Antique stuff so I just don't see much at those sort of places any more...

I live on the Northside. There is a good antique place in the burbs on the Northside too, but keep in mind most of these place generally have smaller Antique stuff, they don't get any sort of range in bigger stones at all because you rarely see them here, and the quality of the stones is mostly sadly lacking too!!!!

I think there are a couple of Pricescopers from around the Gold Coast area but I am not sure..... there are a couple in Sydney a couple in Melbourne and a lot in Perth!!!

 

[arkieb1]

Not rose cuts. Look like OECs to me. Seem pretty round to be OMC, but there are stones in between the classic OMB and classic OEC that are rounder but have more of am OMC faceting.

Hi Dreamer,

Yes they probably do look closer to OECS with basically little to no diamond down in the pavilion part. I'd put them at very early OECS because they don't look like later ones I have seen, and have slight OMC faceting that you mention. Very cool old transitionals!!! I still can't get over the fact a licensed, trained valuer called them Rose cuts... Shows what little knowledge there is here in Australia doesn't it!!!