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california economy in trouble?

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Mara

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??? am i missing something?
 

movie zombie

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Mara

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hmm its going to make me create an account to read it. boo.
 

movie zombie

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Date: 6/21/2005 11:24:04 PM
Author: Mara
hmm its going to make me create an account to read it. boo.

for you, Mara:


Posted on Tue, Jun. 21, 2005

Slower economy forecast for 2006
UCLA REPORT: STATE MAY SEE RECESSION IF HOUSING COOLS
By Therese Poletti
Mercury News

The California economy, which has shown signs of solid growth in the past year, will see much slower growth in 2006 and could even go into recession if the red-hot real estate market cools down, according to the latest economic forecast by the Anderson School at the University of California-Los Angeles.


Economists there, in a quarterly forecast released today, said most growth in the past year has been fueled by the sky-high real estate market in California and in the rest of the United States.


``We''ve got an economy driven by froth -- that''s going to cause big problems,'''' Christopher Thornberg, a senior economist of the UCLA Anderson Forecast, said in an interview.


Thornberg, who wrote a report in the forecast called ``The California Report: Beware the Froth,'''' has turned more bearish about the real estate market in recent months. ``We have an economy that is acting like we are in the midst of a big boom when we are not,'''' he said.


There has been recent debate over whether California and the Bay Area are in a housing bubble. Prices, however, keep surging unabated. Last month, the median resale home price in Santa Clara County jumped to $690,000, up nearly 17 percent from a year ago. Since 1997, real estate prices in California have soared 80.7 percent.


Thornberg said Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan missed the boat by not calling the current housing market a bubble, much as he did not identify the Internet bubble of 2000, which Greenspan referred to as ``irrational exuberance.'''' In his report, Thornberg mocked Greenspan''s obtuse language and his recent use of ``froth'''' to describe some regional real estate markets.


``It still remains unclear to this author what definition of `froth'' was intended to be used in this Greenspan speech, but an educated guess would be that it refers to many small bubbles,'''' Thornberg wrote in his report.


Will bubble pop?


Thornberg said a bubble does not need to pop at the end to cause problems.


``A bubble is when an asset price becomes disassociated completely from the fundamental,'''' he said. ``Rental prices remain weak. Mortgage rates are flat. Income growth is mediocre. There is no reason that a house should be worth 40 percent more today than it was two years ago.''''


In their reports, the UCLA economists note that California has seen the largest increase in real estate prices of any state across the nation, exceeded only by Washington, D.C.


Today''s is not the first of their reports to signal trouble ahead. They warned in September that the country could end up in recession by late 2005, a date pushed back by at least a few months in their latest forecast.


Thornberg cited two differences between the current run-up and previous housing run-ups -- a change in tax laws on capital gains and the sharp drop in mortgage rates. But even allowing for those, home prices have still ``clearly moved away beyond any rational level,'''' he said.


This real estate run-up, Thornberg said, has kept the California economy moving forward. The average Californian has seen his or her home appreciate by about $40,000 over the past two years.


``People feel flush and they are spending accordingly,'''' Thornberg said. ``Unfortunately that $40,000 check your average Californian has received is mostly illusion, and not real.''''


One way the real estate boom has helped the economy is by adding jobs. In the period from 2003 to 2005, when California added 159,000 new jobs, the biggest drivers of those jobs were construction, finance, insurance and retail trade. These jobs are mostly real estate-related, from the building of new homes, renovating old homes to the financing and refinancing of home mortgages. Construction jobs grew 37 percent from 2003 to 2005, and finance and insurance jobs grew 36 percent in the same period.


If prices for existing homes flatten, or even decline, current homeowners are likely to stop looking to upgrade to pricier new homes, a trend that has fueled a construction boom. The construction industry and the mortgage industry will both feel the pinch and the job growth in California will be hurt as a result, Thornberg said.


Key indicator


While most economists are loath to predict exactly when a pop might occur in the real estate bubble -- and some don''t agree that there is a bubble -- they do agree that a drop in U.S. home spending is a key indicator that can predict an economic recession.


Edward Leamer, director of the UCLA Anderson Forecast, said only two recessions have arrived without an early warning from the housing market, and one of those was the 2001 recession after Silicon Valley''s dot-com boom. On two other occasions, once in 1951 and again in 1967, economies that faltered following sharp drops in home spending were revived by wartime spending.


``It seems highly unlikely that the U.S. will be able to avoid an 11th recession in which housing plays a major role,'''' Leamer wrote in his report. ``We just don''t know when it will occur.''''


He thinks it''s at least a year away, however. Leamer said recent economic data has convinced him that there is virtually a zero chance that a recession still start before April 2006. Two consecutive quarters of declines in the gross national product is the definition of a recession for many economists.


According to Thornberg, in both California and the rest of the United States, the economy has been driven by the unbridled consumption of Americans who spend virtually all their disposable income on goods and services, not saving a dime.


``This process will have a detrimental impact on the economy even if (real estate) prices don''t fall,'''' he wrote. ``The wealth creation that has fueled consumer spending will go away. All those people who were banking on continued appreciation of their house to finance their children''s college education will suddenly find they need to go back to the old fashioned way of saving for the future -- spending less.''''



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Dancing Fire

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just heard it on the 10:00 news.some little farm town call Reedly Ca.
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housing went up 68% in the pass 12 months.
 

Dancing Fire

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Date: 6/22/2005 1:14:12 AM
Author: movie zombie




style="WIDTH: 95.69%; HEIGHT: 34px">

Thornberg said Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan missed the boat by not calling the current housing market a bubble, much as he did not identify the Internet bubble of 2000, which Greenspan referred to as ``irrational exuberance.'' In his report, Thornberg mocked Greenspan''s obtuse language and his recent use of ``froth'' to describe some regional real estate markets.

Greenspan know it''s a bubble but, he can''t say it. look what happen to the stock market when he said "irrational exuberance"




This real estate run-up, Thornberg said, has kept the California economy moving forward. The average Californian has seen his or her home appreciate by about $40,000 over the past two years.



``People feel flush and they are spending accordingly,'' Thornberg said. ``Unfortunately that $40,000 check your average Californian has received is mostly illusion, and not real.''

he''s absolutely right,mostly illusion ,not real money.



According to Thornberg, in both California and the rest of the United States, the economy has been driven by the unbridled consumption of Americans who spend virtually all their disposable income on goods and services, not saving a dime.



``This process will have a detrimental impact on the economy even if (real estate) prices don''t fall,'' he wrote. ``The wealth creation that has fueled consumer spending will go away. All those people who were banking on continued appreciation of their house to finance their children''s college education will suddenly find they need to go back to the old fashioned way of saving for the future -- spending less.''

that''s been the support of the US economy in the pass few yrs. refi their home, taking money out to spend.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

AGBF

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Date: 6/22/2005 1:14:12 AM
Author: movie zombie
According to Thornberg, in both California and the rest of the United States, the economy has been driven by the unbridled consumption of Americans who spend virtually all their disposable income on goods and services, not saving a dime.

This is an accurate description of how I have been acting recently. On Saturday night we had dinner at the home of our next door neighbors. We discussed how, several years ago, house prices in our neighborhood had fallen to a level where they (our neighbors) could not sell their house without taking a substantial loss. It can happen...and it can happen when the breadwinner or breadwinners have lost his (their) job(s)!

I am about to splurge on some high karat gold jewelry by a designer whose work is not carried by most vendors. After that, I think I will take a breather and do some saving. I haven't added anything to my daughter's college account in about a year!!!

Pricescope not only informs me about consumer decisions, but also makes me think. Not a bad thing, really :).

Deb
 

movie zombie

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DF, with you 105%....doesn''t seem like a great way for an economy to be running either. i must admit to becoming paranoid about the US economy.

Deb, i don''t have a problem with spending thousands on retaining walls around this place because we will be here for years. but i''m not sure how much more money i''m willing to spend on fine gems/jewelry. having said that, i want to know which designer you''re buying from, what you''re getting, and when you''ll be posting pictures! i''d really like some high karat gold even if its a very very small pendant or pin.

peace, movie zombie
 

Mara

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DF you sure it wasn''t Redding, CA?

Redding amazes me, its out in the middle of nowhere and they are doing tons of new home building and they are actually SELLING them for pretty high prices. Where do people work out there? Not to mention it''s a thousand degree weather!
 

movie zombie

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Dancing Fire

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Date: 6/22/2005 2:03:26 PM
Author: Mara
DF you sure it wasn't Redding, CA?

Redding amazes me, its out in the middle of nowhere and they are doing tons of new home building and they are actually SELLING them for pretty high prices. Where do people work out there? Not to mention it's a thousand degree weather!
Mara
yeah.....Reedley,Ca. they say it's still cheap @ $100 per sq ft. which is true, compare to other locations in Ca. they showed a brand new house on the 10:00 news that was 4,000+ sq ft. and it look like a mansion.
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MZ thanks.....for the correction.
 

movie zombie

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DF, interesting, isn''t it?! i''m not sure why everyone feels the need for such a big house. perhaps its that rush to buy things that you spoke about earlier? anyone know the average sf for a house built around 1950?
or maybe some people feel about houses the way pricescopers do about diamonds, spessartite, etc.!!! i guess we all have our achilles heel......
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peace, movie zombie
 

Mara

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we actually dislike huge houses...

a few weeks ago we went to san ramon to visit some friends, they have a 3500 sq ft home, its huge! very echoey sounding since they don''t have alot of furniture.

anyhow we checked out the new shappell houses that are being built out there, there are a bunch of various ''styles'' and sq ftage etc. we checked out the smaller ones we could afford and then the ones that were $2m!

the smaller ones we could afford were icky. we like our place much better.

the big ones that were $2m were ridiculous! 5500 sq ft! what do you do with that much space? there were a few random ''entry'' or living room things, and then a huge dining room, 2 small off-from-the-table wine room areas, one actual wine room...what we did love was the kitchen and family room combo, very big and spacious with a nice flow...downstairs there were 2 guest rooms, one outfitted for a queen with walk in closet, big ole bathroom, french doors to patio etc. upstairs was a ''kiddie loft'' or ''tv room?'' and 3 more bedrooms including master SUITE which was a monster with a shower that was just frighteningly large and modern.

so here were our scenarios. you have two income family, husband and wife. no kids. too big for both of them and they are working the whole time to pay the mortgage. never enough time to enjoy the mausoleum house. second scenario. husband works, wife has kids, stays home. husband NEVER home because he has to pay for house and kids and all that, wife and kids can enjoy house but not dad, where is dad anyway? third scenario, retired couple, no kids. grandchildren but unless they are visiting every other week, house is too big for 2 retired people. esp all those stairs. fourth scenario, win the lotto! buy fab 2m house and never have to work, invite relatives and freinds to stay with you forever. enjoy house all the time.

so obviously scenario 4 is the only way you''d even be able to use all the space and enjoy the house!! otherwise you''d be working or lost in the house.

funny because many times people think bigger is better etc....but for us, give us a nice easy liveable floorplan with the basics plujs some, aka big kitchen and fam room combo with a nice fireplace, a dining room, a wine room, a pantry, 3 bedrooms, a few bathrooms, a nice patio and backyard area, a jet tub, dual masteer closets and a few other amennities and we are golden. we don''t need 3 wine areas, or the master SUITE where you get lost. dual shower would be nice.
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but we are more about the amenities than having lots of SPACE necessarily.
 

fire&ice

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I have to agree about space & house. When we built our house, we thought we would be filling the bedrooms. Our little bungalow is about 1500 or so s.f. It has a great open floor plan. I am so much happier in the little house. It''s all on one level. It takes me a hour to clean (and I mean a good cleaning). I feel cozy.
 

ForteKitty

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There is something else that doesn''t make any sense to me.

I live in L.A. where pricing is ridiculous. Most people cannot afford homes comfortably. So what many of them have done, is move to places like Temecula, Victorville, Lancaster, and Palmdale, but still work in L.A., which is a 2-3 hour commute each way to work!! That just makes absolutely NO SENSE to me!! You''re lookin at a 4-6 hour commute everyday... in S. Cal traffic! I don''t care how cheap the houses are... and they''re not even that cheap--$450K+ for a 3 bed/3 bth. If I have to drive that much to and from work every day, I''d die of road rage/heart attack/sleepyness. Mostly road rage.
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And wost of all, they can''t even spend time with their families at the end of the day. Wake up, go to work, work, come home, eat, sleep. Repeat. Kids? Husband? Family? Who??

What''s the point?
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Mara

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F&I...i know re: cleaning! it takes us 2.5 hours to clean our place and that is both of us doing diligence on a saturday afternoon. our three bathrooms take up the most time..yikes! can't imagine what a bigger house would be like with 4-5 bathrooms! we keep meaning to get a cleaning gal to come in, 4 of our friends use someone they highly recommend, but i just never get around to it and then we just end up doing it ourselves, so who knows if i will ever make the call. plus, even if you have someone coming in to clean the mausoleum house then its probably costing a pretty penny. it would cost us about $80 each visit for our 1800 sq ft house. not too bad every 3 weeks, but imagine a 5500 sq ft house every 2 or 3 weeks!!!
 

movie zombie

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i currently live in the largest home i have ever lived in: 1850 sf.
prior to this all homes AND apartments i lived in were under 1000 sf.
with just the two of us and 8 cats, we still have room left over. we needed the extra space as we were living in my little box [738 sf which i bought in 1993 as a single woman having given up on any long term relationship].

i HATE cleaning house and i HATE paying for someone to do what i can do....so this place has pretty much pushed the limit for how large a house i''d ever want to live in. the thought of anything larger just makes me cringe.

and its not just the housekeeping factors! think about roof replacement, exterior painting, etc. for a 4000 sf home!!!! personally, i''d rather spend the cash on more gems.....
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peace, movie zombie

ps another issue: paving over that good central valley agricultural land for these homes.....
 

cflutist

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Cleaning? What's that? We just live in the mess.
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At 3300 sq ft (on one story), we have one of the smallest houses in the neighborhood
(largest is 12,000 sq ft, I wonder what they do with all that room). Almost all of
my neighbors have cleaning people come in, or have live-in au pairs.
We're too cheap to pay for cleaning people, so we clean when necessary.
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We like having the room to spread out. I have my office,
websailor has his office, we sleep in the MBR, we have a guest
room, and we use another bedroom as our "jigsaw puzzle" room
(have websailor's Duncan Phife antique Dining Room table,
secretariat, and treadle (sp?) sewing machine in there).

When I go to my neighbor's homes, they have things such as home
theatres, double cooktops and double sinks in the kitchen (one on the counter,
one on the island), walk in pantries, double Sub Zero fridges,
his and hers Master baths, 5 - 7 car garages, etc.
Makes my house look like a in-law unit. I guess everything is relative in life.

Well at least we have a gardener ... (on one acre lots which is rare in the
San Francisco Bay Area) too much for websailor to take care of. Even
then we plant our own flowers since we don't trust the gardener to
do it right. Last weekend, I planted lobelia and zinnas ... boy was my
rear end sore on Monday. Oh, and yes, we have $500 - 600 water
bills in the summer
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AGBF

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I don''t have a clue how many square feet we have and I don''t have a clue how many square feet were in any of our other houses. How do all of you keep this information in your heads?

Deb
 

Dancing Fire

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cflutist
think your house is messy? think again
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imagine with 2 teenagers in the house.everything is all over the place.
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i''m affraid to go into their rooms, i may get a heartattack.
 

Dancing Fire

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Date: 6/22/2005 7:34:16 PM
Author: movie zombie
DF, interesting, isn''t it?! i''m not sure why everyone feels the need for such a big house. perhaps its that rush to buy things that you spoke about earlier? anyone know the average sf for a house built around 1950?
peace, movie zombie
our home is 2350 sq ft single story.i did look at a brand new 4400 sq ft custom home about 9 yrs ago,cheap at that time,no buyers.the asking price was 520k (it started at 590k) fully loaded with drapes,front & backyard landscaping,etc. a bigger house not only comes with a bigger mortgage,more property tax,insurance,utility.
 

fire&ice

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re: cleaning people. Been there. Done that. We paid around $85 every two weeks (1999ish). When they decided to cut us out of their schedule - too far for them to drive (cleaning people are like the soup nazi''s), we never found anyone else. I had to be home & manage the two dogs. I picked up and straightened up the day before so they didn''t think we were pigs.
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In other words, more trouble than it was worth. My parents had a housekeeper steal from them. My friends rings (not diamond) turned up missing right after a cleaning. Another friend, can''t come to fire her housekeeper. The women never finishes, does a half assed job & yaks the whole time. It''s too funny.

Oh, and one perspective "housekeeper" was off her rocker. She came over to clean and also give me an estimate - the whole time acting a bit odd. ALL I said was be careful with the Art Pottery. She mentioned that she may not finish cleaning. I said "do what you can". As I walked up the steps she muttered "I don''t know who you think you are MISSSY" in the most hateful tone. That type of thing had NEVER happened to me. I turned around and told her to get out.

Yes, I digress - but goes to issue of why I like our LITTLE house better.
 

KittenKat

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My fiance and I were looking at condos for fun in the West Los Angeles area. Anything AROUND the $1 million dollar range is CRAP! (And that was far more than anyone should spend on a two bedroom condo.)


We looked at some that were brand new, aesthetically nice - but such TERRIBLE workmanship. They looked like they were slapped together for a quick sale. Sure the granite, and wine cellars are nice extras - but why not spend the building money on more than a facade???

The only amazing condo we LOVED (in beverly hills) was listed at the mid $800k range. And the realtor told us the bidding was much higher than the list price. (Reminded me of when I lived in San Fran!)

But we''re screwed - since we refuse to leave the city and move to the valley.

My family is from a small suburb outside of Malibu called Calabasas. (If you watched the Jessica & Nick show - they lived there.)
Calabasas has always been an upscale area - but the costs are unbearable.

One friend of mine''s family sold their 30 year old, 2,000+ sq. ft. house for almost $2 million. (And it was in need of serious upgrading.)

In my parent''s community, people were able to buy homes for $600,000 on the low-end in the early 90''s. Now... those homes are well over $2 million. It''s sick!

Maybe if we start saving now, my fiance and I can buy a house we love when we''re 60! Woohooo!!
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hoorray

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We have some friends where the "big house" thing makes sense. They have grown kids who have married and have kids, and like to have family events with 10+ people at their house. Other than that type of scenario, I don''t get it either. We did the big house thing in our last house. It was beautiful, and great for entertaining (think big parties.....
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). But other than those few days, it was a HUGE amout of work, and the cost of upkeep was crazy. Other people spent $1500 - $2500 to paint the outside, we spent $7500. Others spent $2000 to replace the raingutters, we spent $4500. Pure size made everything more expensive. Then all the contractors, etc., who came to give us bids, looked around and added a %, I''m sure.

We still have a fair amount of guests since we have a spread out family, so I like to be able to accomodate them in a "kinda comfortable" style, but I like smaller better. We are surrounded by people building/buying 4 - 8000 sq foot homes. I will never be above 4000sq feet again, and if we can get a design we like that covers all the bases, it will be below 3000.
 
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