Buying from DB via Paypal F&F?

[BrimstoneTwo]

Hi all

Just want to know your thoughts on the following situation.

Contacted a seller on DiamondBistro and she requested payment via PayPal friends and family. Knowing that there is no buyer protection on F&F transactions, I asked if she would accept a normal PayPal payment, and that I was happy to pay the fees if money was an issue. She refused. Her reason: "I was burned by a buyer when I used it the other way by her keeping my item and returning an empty package stating she returned the item as her tracking showed. Thus she was refunded by PayPal which made me very cautious since then. Because F&F has worked for me, as stated, by both purchases and sales. I’m just more comfortable doing it this way."

I have not purchased on DB before but having a look around, I see that a lot of sellers request F&F. Red flags? Am I missing something here?

 

[qubitasaurus]

It sounds like this is making you uncomfortable so I would let it go and find other sparklies to buy (honestly it would worry me too, there has to be trust on at least one side of this equation one way or another -- either (a) you have to trust her to uphold her end of the transaction with no reprisal if she doesn't or (b) she has to trust you not to frauduantly dispute the transaction. She has told you it is (a) or no transaction. Fair enough, but if that makes you uncomfortable then you should walk away.)

 

[Bron357]

It cuts both ways, if you use PayPal F &F and the seller sends you an empty box, then you have no recourse. So I understand the apprehension a seller might have, just as I understand that a buyer may not feel comfortable.
I recently bought something off LT and was happy to pay via F&F because the seller was a regular Pser. So the risk was on me but I was happy to accept that.
So, it’s a personal thing.

 

[BrimstoneTwo]

Thanks to you both. It's a pair of moissanite earrings, so not anything so unique that I am losing out by walking away. I was just curious if there was another reason for sellers to want F&F that I had not considered. I've been buying and selling on ebay for years, and while the vast majority of transactions have been good ones, PayPal definitely protected me on the ones that weren't. I mentioned Pricescope to her but she did not fess up to being a regular member here, so for now I will wait. I am in the middle of wedding planning and just don't need the hassle.

 

[YadaYadaYada]

I just went through a huge ordeal with something I bought on LT, ironically a moissanite ring and my only saving grace was that I paid with PayPal (not friends and family). So I personally would not give up that protection, you never know.

 

[missy]

Honestly at this point after reading some unpleasant stories here and on IG I would only buy from a PSer I have some familiarity with from being on this online forum with them. So no I wouldn't buy from the above seller if you don't know her plus F&F is technically only for family and friends so she is asking you to lie from the beginning of the transaction.

 

[tkyasx78]

I wouldnt buy from her/him even if they changed their mind at this point. Trust is a 2 way street. Demanding that you have no recourse is a flag that they may not be on the up and up

 

[FancyDiamond]

Many years ago, I traded on eBay. The buying/selling environment was much more safe. Even back then, I always used Paypal (fees were much more reasonable then), which saved me from dishonest traders. Occasionally, I used F&F, but only if I know the other parties from established discussion forums.

Although I have not traded for years, I do notice a downhill trend on eBay or other similar sites and Paypal from reading increasingly MORE shopper complaints. More troubling are the “creative” methods of scams by both buyers and sellers. As I get older, I tell myself that I do not need stress. I no longer buy from these sites, and I donate my unwanted items. To avoid the need to sell in the future, before I buy anything, I remind myself that I would be stuck with the purchase forever.

If someday that I find something I MUST have from DB (seller being a stranger), I might go ahead with the transactions only under the following conditions:
1. I am willing to risk losing the money.
2. I use a credit card that I can do charge back in case of fraud or problems. If using Paypal, I shall not use F&F.

 

[pearlsngems]

Personally I would never pay for goods or services using F&F.

First, I don't want anything so badly that I am willing to give up my protections as a buyer.

Second, I think it is a dishonest use of PayPal for the seller to sidestep the payment of legitimate fees. I have no great sympathy for PayPal, and I don't like paying fees any more than the next person, but that is the way PayPal works-- if you use the service to collect payment, you pay fees.
I know a seller who used to use F&F all the time and PayPal contacted him and warned him to stop this practice.

That said, if anyone uses F&F to pay for goods or services, be sure to write a note on the payment itself that states clearly that it is a payment and what it is for. I know of a few buyers who were cheated by a seller after using F&F, who were able to recover their funds because of their having put such a memo on the payment.
I just wouldn't want to count on it.

JMO

 

[BrimstoneTwo]

Thanks everyone. I wish there were a way of protecting all parties without someone trying to game the system.

 

[kgizo]

"I was burned by a buyer when I used it the other way by her keeping my item and returning an empty package stating she returned the item as her tracking showed. Thus she was refunded by PayPal which made me very cautious since then. Because F&F has worked for me, as stated, by both purchases and sales. I’m just more comfortable doing it this way."

I’m hoping someone who is an experienced seller can chime in here. In a case like this where there is a he said / she said type of disagreement I can see PP (or eBay or whomever) paying out the buyer and seller and putting them on “probation” in case it continues to happen; or making the seller file a theft claim with the USPS which would be serious for both parties and thus would discourage this type of scam. Anyone who is a seller know more about the repercussions for this type of scam?
On topic, Brimstone my preference is to have a choice like you proposed (buy at a cheaper price with F&F or pay slightly more to use PP with buyer protection). I have bought of LT with F&F with no problems, but there are times that I haven’t recognized the seller or the price has been too good and I’ve passed.

 

[madelise]

I’m hoping someone who is an experienced seller can chime in here. In a case like this where there is a he said / she said type of disagreement I can see PP (or eBay or whomever) paying out the buyer and seller and putting them on “probation” in case it continues to happen; or making the seller file a theft claim with the USPS which would be serious for both parties and thus would discourage this type of scam. Anyone who is a seller know more about the repercussions for this type of scam?
On topic, Brimstone my preference is to have a choice like you proposed (buy at a cheaper price with F&F or pay slightly more to use PP with buyer protection). I have bought of LT with F&F with no problems, but there are times that I haven’t recognized the seller or the price has been too good and I’ve passed.

Sellers get f'ed over by credit card and PayPal "charge backs". This seller isn't lying. It's problematic for sellers.

 

[monarch64]

Thanks everyone. I wish there were a way of protecting all parties without someone trying to game the system.

There is: it’s called a pawn shop. Buying and selling in person is more fun and hassle free for me. I’ve sold on eBay and enough weird transactions to put me off of it, plus I hate paying their fees and PayPal’s as well. I just took some old gold pieces that were gifted to me or that I bought at a very deep discount 20 years ago and walked out with fat stacks. Great experience, but I have a connection (my friend does their books and I’ve met the owner who also sells on Ruby Lane) so getting to know your local shops can be very lucrative.

 

[Bron357]

I’m an eBay buyer (and occasional seller) of over 13 years now. I predominately buy watches and jewellery. I used to buy without any protection (before PayPal) happily sending bank drafts overseas and waiting patiently for my parcel.
Despite this I had little trouble. I think back then it was fair more honest.
These days I still buy on eBay, but I am much more wary. As a buyer I am fortunate, 13 years on ebay with over 1300 transactions, sellers are more inclined to trust me. And I choose my sellers with care, again looking for sale history and 99% feedback. I still believe most people are honest.
And PayPal’s friends and family facility now actually costs the sender (they used to do it for free) and the Terms and Conditions are quite clear, no recourse for monies sent this way.
As a buyer or seller you can choose who you do business with and how, if your requirements arent able to be met, you need to find another seller (or buyer) who wants to interact according to how you want it to be.
Unfortunately unless transactions are done “face to face with cash payment” there is no other system that equally protects the seller and the buyer.

 

[lyra]

I don't have a lot of choices for the secondary market. I honestly didn't know the F&F thing would offer me no protection, so thanks for bringing that up. I find that almost no one is willing to ship to Canada. Even some big ebay sellers whose listings are on ebay Canada say they don't ship to Canada. The local pawn shops have nothing remotely worthwhile. I'm a great buyer, I swear.