Buying a diamond: WF/JA/BGD vs GoG and VC

[bubbletrouble]

Hello there,

First time poster but have been reading voraciously through this forum recently. A big thank you to everybody who contributes - your wealth of knowledge and expertise is amazing and has been so helpful as I research diamonds for an engagement ring.

My query is about the buying through an online vendor (James Allen, Whiteflash and Brian Gavin) vs using a vendor such as Good Old Gold or Victor Canera which has a human element. My partner and I are in Sydney, Australia and are planning to have our e-ring made by VC as we can't seem to find anyone here locally who delivers the high levels of craftsmanship or matches our aesthetic tastes.

We are yet to source the diamond. After doing our research, we have been comfortable plugging in our desired specs (including proportions found in the cheatsheets here on this forum and working out HCA scores) into the online vendors like JA, WF and BGD and are trying to do our best learning to interpret the ASET and Idealscope etc. However the option of being able to use a service like GoG, where they do a lot of the interpretation for you (and can show you videos before you buy) is very appealing to us. We'd like to avoid buying online, being disappointed and shipping it back etc. Another option would be to ask VC to source our diamond for us which adds to the convenience factor further.

I guess I would like to know:
- What are the pros and cons of doing it all ourselves vs enlisting the help of the pros?
- Do you think we will miss out on the range of diamonds available by asking either GoG or VC to source for us? Of the two, who would you recommend? We have found GoG and in particular Jonathan's online presence very helpful so feel we could trust him/his team and VC will be setting the stone and provides the option of finding us a diamond but we do not know much about his diamond sourcing service.
- Re GoG policy, we would be unable to see the GIA/AGS certificates until we commit to a stone. Being our first big online purchase, we are slightly uncomfortable with not having all the information (not that we are qualified to interpret it anyway..). Thoughts about this?

Overall, we simply want the best diamond we can afford in our price range and are exploring the best ways of doing this given we are both diamond novices at best and live on the other side of the world. This forum has been invaluable and without it we would still be trawling haplessly through our local stores.

Any advice or guidance would be greatly appreciated, big thank you in advance!

 

[teobdl]

You're definitely in good hands with GOG. Do you have a particular setting in mind? VC is obviously great, but don't discount Steven Kirsch, either. I don't think you'd be saving much money, if any, by sourcing directly from VC, and you'll probably get better, more impartial service from GOG.

 

[marymm]

You're definitely in good hands with GOG. Do you have a particular setting in mind? VC is obviously great, but don't discount Steven Kirsch, either. I don't think you'd be saving much money, if any, by sourcing directly from VC, and you'll probably get better, more impartial service from GOG.

teobdl, I think GOG offers a small discount on their diamonds if you buy a setting from them above a certain price - by your statement above, would that make GOG's diamond services biased rather than impartial? I think not. And, by the same token, if one were to purchase both diamond and setting from VC, I am certain VC would take a diamond buyer's budget and preferences into account and select only the finest, top-performing stones which fit into said parameters.

Implying that a purchaser must buy a diamond and a setting from separate vendors in order to receive fair and impartial information about said purchases I think is the wrong message here, where the poster is considering diamond/setting vendors who are all highly regarded on PS. In fact, many reputable diamond vendors, online and otherwise, offer discounts if both stone and setting are purchased - this is not unusual nor does it mean their diamond expertise and advice is biased. I honestly don't know if VC offers any discount for diamond+setting purchases, but I know GOG does, as do Leon Mege, ERD, High Performance Diamonds, among others.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

As far as a vendor like WF goes, they have their ACA line which is an easy purchase as those are all top of the line stones. It is like choosing a GOG Superior hearts and arrows round brilliant. You don't have to even use HCA with GOG, BG, or WF's signature or top level stones. It is also very possible that Victor can source what you want. I have actually bought from all of those at some point, and they all certainly can source great stones. WF and BG have stones cut for their inventory, so it makes the most sense to use them if they have a stone you want in stock. GOG is located in NY, so they can easily access additional stones not in their inventory. Then there is the ease of buying both in the same place, so that would make Victor a good choice.

Can you tell us what it is you are looking for? If one of the vendors happens to have a stone close to your specs, that would make this really easy.

 

[arkieb1]

I think it depends on the size and the shape of the diamond you are looking for which I assume is a round brilliant. I am in Brisbane btw and have dealt with Victor a number of times, he is a lovely genuine guy and has always been wonderful to work with. He is currently cutting his own stones and he is attempting to be competitive in pricing with places like Brian Gavin. He will give a small discount if you purchase both the setting and the centre diamond from him. His hearts and arrows stones are stunning.... Having said that he doesn't always have what the buyer is after in his inventory so it might be a matter of either getting him to source something for you (he has an excellent eye for stones as well) he might be able to cut something for you if you are willing to wait, or it may well be easier to find something from another trusted vendor with a larger inventory.

I've also made purchases from Brian Gavin, GOG, and Whiteflash before and never had any issues. Grace from Jewels by Grace occasionally has round brilliants for sale and check the preloved forums DiamondBistro and Loupetroop as members some times upgrade their H & A RBs for larger stones and sell them outright rather than trading them in.

 

[bubbletrouble]

Hi all,

Thank you for the input, much appreciated

teobdl: We are looking into customising a solitaire setting, there is no space on the finger for extra jewels so had to eliminate any pave or halo from the equation. We are trying to find a design that enhances the stone but won't swamp her finger/be too impractical. We considered working with SK or LM to get the ring done and after looking carefully at the available pictures online and noticing the subtle differences in each of their styles, decided to go with VC as our first choice.

diamondseeker2006: We're looking for a hearts and arrows round brilliant, 0.60-0.65 carats, D-F colour and down to VS1 clarity with no fluorescence. Higher colour and clarity more for 'mind-clean' reasons and because the limitation in carat size (very very small finger) means we have more in our budget for the other Cs. Looking at a budget of ~4k, depending on the stone.

arkieb1: Thank you for the information regarding VC, it's reassuring to know it won't be difficult to work across the distance, the logistics, insurance and cost of sending the ring once it's finished are the next thing on my list to chase up. At the moment, I haven't been able to find a diamond in his collection that is in our size range as most of them are >1ct.

Thanks again,
BT

 

[arkieb1]

Do you have a total budget of $4000USD (setting + stone) or is that just for the stone? Victors settings are expensive by Aussie standards, however they are much better made than anything we see here as well. What style of setting are you after? What finger size is she? You might be better off starting another thread with the stats of what you are looking for and everyone will find you the best stone they can for the price, some of the people here are wizards at finding things and they will give you a number of stones so you can compare what you get for the price.

I think most people will advise you to purchase the largest stone you can for your budget and put it into a simple setting, unless you specifically want a halo or something else.

 

[bubbletrouble]

Thanks arkieb1,

The budget is for the stone only, I'll start a separate thread as suggested and see if anything matching pops up. Re the setting, regardless of budget we're planning for it to be fairly simple and understated, so as not to detract from the stone. Thanks for the heads up re VC pricing, although we'd be happy to pay for the craftsmanship. It's been impossible to find someone locally with the same attention to detail and quality.

BT

 

[teobdl]

You're likely to get the best prices from B2C Jewels or BlueNile (maybe even James Allen). I don't think you necessarily need to buy from the places you mentioned because it's not hard to buy a round that size with super high clarity. Just need images and report and a good return policy if necessary.

You could go up to almost 0.75ct even with that high color/clarity combo if you shop around for it. This might be stretching the budget, but it gives you an idea. http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/11403/ I don't think it's bad to go to VS2 if you're buying from someone like GOG, WF, etc, but you may value clarity as much as color. In that case, do stick to higher clarity, and you can feel more comfortable buying from a place w/ fewer buyer services (like B2C or BN).

 

[starrylight]

Have you considered mark morrell? He does work with good old gold and makes beautiful handmade settings.

 

[MollyMalone]

arkieb1: Thank you for the information regarding VC, it's reassuring to know it won't be difficult to work across the distance, the logistics, insurance and cost of sending the ring once it's finished are the next thing on my list to chase up. At the moment, I haven't been able to find a diamond in his collection that is in our size range as most of them are >1ct.

You aren't limited, BT, to only those stones shown on VC's web site & VC will match or beat the price of a stone from elsewhere:
http://www.victorcanera.com/diamond-source-about

 

[teobdl]

Mark Morrell--yes please!!! His Torchiere is my very favorite solitaire.

 

[Rhino]

You're definitely in good hands with GOG. Do you have a particular setting in mind? VC is obviously great, but don't discount Steven Kirsch, either. I don't think you'd be saving much money, if any, by sourcing directly from VC, and you'll probably get better, more impartial service from GOG.

teobdl, I think GOG offers a small discount on their diamonds if you buy a setting from them above a certain price - by your statement above, would that make GOG's diamond services biased rather than impartial? I think not. And, by the same token, if one were to purchase both diamond and setting from VC, I am certain VC would take a diamond buyer's budget and preferences into account and select only the finest, top-performing stones which fit into said parameters.

Implying that a purchaser must buy a diamond and a setting from separate vendors in order to receive fair and impartial information about said purchases I think is the wrong message here, where the poster is considering diamond/setting vendors who are all highly regarded on PS. In fact, many reputable diamond vendors, online and otherwise, offer discounts if both stone and setting are purchased - this is not unusual nor does it mean their diamond expertise and advice is biased. I honestly don't know if VC offers any discount for diamond+setting purchases, but I know GOG does, as do Leon Mege, ERD, High Performance Diamonds, among others.

Greetings Marymm.

I think you may have misunderstood teobdl. I don't believe teo was implying we were biased (partial) but rather unbiased (impartial).

Kind regards,
Rhino

 

[Victor Canera]

Hi bubbletrouble,

We actually really pride ourselves in our customer service. I think we have been impartial to all of our clients that have sourced a diamond and ring from us and the prices for our Canera Ideal Hearts - Super Ideal Hearts & Arrows diamonds are very fair for the product offered.
We also have a price match guarantee for stones if we need to source an outside stone for you and we offer a number of discounts when a client purchase a complete piece with center stone. You may read about this service here: http://www.victorcanera.com/diamond-source-about It also makes the process much much more convenient for the client at the end of the day.

You're welcome to give me or Paige a call to discuss.


My Best,

 

[marymm]

You're definitely in good hands with GOG. Do you have a particular setting in mind? VC is obviously great, but don't discount Steven Kirsch, either. I don't think you'd be saving much money, if any, by sourcing directly from VC, and you'll probably get better, more impartial service from GOG.

teobdl, I think GOG offers a small discount on their diamonds if you buy a setting from them above a certain price - by your statement above, would that make GOG's diamond services biased rather than impartial? I think not. And, by the same token, if one were to purchase both diamond and setting from VC, I am certain VC would take a diamond buyer's budget and preferences into account and select only the finest, top-performing stones which fit into said parameters.

Implying that a purchaser must buy a diamond and a setting from separate vendors in order to receive fair and impartial information about said purchases I think is the wrong message here, where the poster is considering diamond/setting vendors who are all highly regarded on PS. In fact, many reputable diamond vendors, online and otherwise, offer discounts if both stone and setting are purchased - this is not unusual nor does it mean their diamond expertise and advice is biased. I honestly don't know if VC offers any discount for diamond+setting purchases, but I know GOG does, as do Leon Mege, ERD, High Performance Diamonds, among others.

Greetings Marymm.

I think you may have misunderstood teobdl. I don't believe teo was implying we were biased (partial) but rather unbiased (impartial).

Kind regards,
Rhino

Rhino - I did not misunderstand teobdl, though you may have misunderstood my post. I do think that teobdl was stating his opinion, and in turn I wanted to make sure readers of this thread understood that GOG is no more or less impartial than any other of the diamond vendors (including Victor Canera, WhiteFlash, Engagement Rings Direct, Brian Gavin Diamonds, and High Performance Diamonds) held in high regard by many PS members.

 

[Rhino]

You're definitely in good hands with GOG. Do you have a particular setting in mind? VC is obviously great, but don't discount Steven Kirsch, either. I don't think you'd be saving much money, if any, by sourcing directly from VC, and you'll probably get better, more impartial service from GOG.

teobdl, I think GOG offers a small discount on their diamonds if you buy a setting from them above a certain price - by your statement above, would that make GOG's diamond services biased rather than impartial? I think not. And, by the same token, if one were to purchase both diamond and setting from VC, I am certain VC would take a diamond buyer's budget and preferences into account and select only the finest, top-performing stones which fit into said parameters.

Implying that a purchaser must buy a diamond and a setting from separate vendors in order to receive fair and impartial information about said purchases I think is the wrong message here, where the poster is considering diamond/setting vendors who are all highly regarded on PS. In fact, many reputable diamond vendors, online and otherwise, offer discounts if both stone and setting are purchased - this is not unusual nor does it mean their diamond expertise and advice is biased. I honestly don't know if VC offers any discount for diamond+setting purchases, but I know GOG does, as do Leon Mege, ERD, High Performance Diamonds, among others.

Greetings Marymm.

I think you may have misunderstood teobdl. I don't believe teo was implying we were biased (partial) but rather unbiased (impartial).

Kind regards,
Rhino

Rhino - I did not misunderstand teobdl, though you may have misunderstood my post. I do think that teobdl was stating his opinion, and in turn I wanted to make sure readers of this thread understood that GOG is no more or less impartial than any other of the diamond vendors (including Victor Canera, WhiteFlash, Engagement Rings Direct, Brian Gavin Diamonds, and High Performance Diamonds) held in high regard by many PS members.

Thanks for the clarification Marymm.

 

[teobdl]

Sorry bubbletrouble for the brief sidetrack from your original post.

I did not mean to turn up the heat, and I hope I'm not turning it up anymore by clarifying my comments and rationale for what I said.

My post had two levels to it, and you may disagree with both, one, or neither:
1) GOG has a reputation for being able to source the best diamonds that meet very specific criteria for its customers. I consider GOG second to none in that regard. I can't comment on VC's customer service or his diamonds as I have not worked with his company.
2) Regarding impartiality, my comment had another layer in that the vendor in question (VC) commissions his own MRB diamonds to be cut and has an interest in moving this product before sourcing other diamonds. The inventory is extremely limited. I would consider this as introducing bias, in the same way that I would say WF is bias in pushing their in house commission cut diamonds, ditto BG, ditto HPD, and ditto GOG if someone is looking to buy an OEC or OMB. I did assume the OP was seeking a MRB because of the mentions of WF and BGD. My comment was not a jab at VC (though I can see how it would be interpreted as such--sorry about the terse phrasing), but was more intended to be a comment that anyone who has inventory they themselves commissioned to be cut to certain specifications will likely introduce more bias than someone who's business in selling MRB's is built on sourcing diamonds rather than selling their own commissioned MRB's. That is my opinion informed by experience, not with VC but with other vendors mentioned in this post.

 

[arkieb1]

Sorry bubbletrouble for the brief sidetrack from your original post.

I did not mean to turn up the heat, and I hope I'm not turning it up anymore by clarifying my comments and rationale for what I said.

My post had two levels to it, and you may disagree with both, one, or neither:
1) GOG has a reputation for being able to source the best diamonds that meet very specific criteria for its customers. I consider GOG second to none in that regard. I can't comment on VC's customer service or his diamonds as I have not worked with his company.
2) Regarding impartiality, my comment had another layer in that the vendor in question (VC) commissions his own MRB diamonds to be cut and has an interest in moving this product before sourcing other diamonds. The inventory is extremely limited. I would consider this as introducing bias, in the same way that I would say WF is bias in pushing their in house commission cut diamonds, ditto BG, ditto HPD, and ditto GOG if someone is looking to buy an OEC or OMB. I did assume the OP was seeking a MRB because of the mentions of WF and BGD. My comment was not a jab at VC (though I can see how it would be interpreted as such--sorry about the terse phrasing), but was more intended to be a comment that anyone who has inventory they themselves commissioned to be cut to certain specifications will likely introduce more bias than someone who's business in selling MRB's is built on sourcing diamonds rather than selling their own commissioned MRB's. That is my opinion informed by experience, not with VC but with other vendors mentioned in this post.

That is the most ridiculous statement I have read in a while, why would one vendor be biased towards their own cuts if a) they don't have the size of the stone the customer wants in stock and b) the customer specifically asks for another stone and c) if anything they are competing with all of the other vendors so they are then pushed to be price competitive, and use the same diamond trading network that everyone else uses.

ALL of these guys have access to a diamond trading wholesale network, they do a search and call in stones that might be acceptable to the purchaser and go from there - outstanding vendors simply do a better job of weeding through potential diamonds for the customer...... Jon custom cuts a large number of his own stones as well, so given your own theory, why would he be any more or less biased than Victor. It's kind of an odd statement to make when you have never even dealt with Victor yourself. Brian Gavin cuts their own stones, however, they too can source something else for you, as can Wink and most of the others, so I am not sure that you entirely understand how the system works.

I have dealt with both btw and they are both honourable people who do the very best for all of their customers.

 

[bubbletrouble]

Hello!

Again thank you all for the information.

I'm going to leave the points regarding impartiality and bias for others to discuss further if they wish. I can see from these forums that the vendors I listed are all highly regarded so for me, I don't have issues with impartiality and their ability to provide me with the service. I wasn't intending to trigger a discussion about bias and impartiality in the trade, merely a discussion regarding the pros and cons of enlisting the pros vs sourcing on my own diamond online so apologies for that, I hope I didn't inadvertently word it as such in the the opening.

BT

 

[teobdl]

Let me restate my argument another way: If company X didn't prefer that you buy a product they manufacture over a product that it can source with much less effort, they wouldn't make that product in the first place.

Of course, company X would like your business above all else, but it would still prefer to sell the product they themselves manufacture before selling someone else's product. This is bias. The degree to which this bias exists and the adverse effect this may or may not have on the buyer depends on the specifics of the purchase, which the OP had not yet elaborated on. Arkie raises some good examples of where the bias would be attenuated. Knowing the specifics now of the OP's situation with their MRB purchase (particularly desired ct size), I do think this is a situation where bias is pretty close to nill because I don't think VC manufactures product in that weight. He then becomes a source of diamonds the same as GOG, and the question is who can beat the other's price.