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Billionth newbie needing help with diamonds

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dazed_and_confused

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 27, 2008
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42
Hello,

I''ve been looking for a diamond the past month. Unfortunately, my options are limited or maybe my selection is too demanding.
I live in NYC and I''ve been looking for diamonds in the diamond district at 47th street in midtown manhattan and in Chinatown which is in downtown Manhattan.

I have been looking for a D color, VS1 clarity, 1.25 to 1.49 carot, Excellent cut, Excellent symmetry, Excellent polish, and no flourescence (all according to GIA certification). After walking through many stores in these two areas, I was told this makeup is high in demand and low in supply. In other words, I have to pay a premium for it.
To make a long story short, my girlfriend wants a D color only. So the only option I have is to play with is the carot size in my opinion. I don''t want to sacrifice in clarity anymore.

To make another long story short, I think I have finally found the diamond I want. But I am very nervous and scared because it''s in the diamond district. There are people outside the store that looks like they want to "hustle" people and ask anyone that walks past by if they want to sell diamonds. To make things worse, the guy doesn''t own a store, but a booth. The guy could maybe pack up the next day and leave? I was told this area doesn''t have a good reputation and that kind of bothers me because I can''t tell the good from the bad.

The guy that has the diamond seems to be very nice. He was very patient with me in looking for a diamond that I want for the past two weeks. The surrounding area bothers me and I''m concerned with whether I''m buying a real diamond or not.

The sales person found me a 1.27 carot, D color, VS1 clarity, and triple X with no flourescence. He told me it''s and ideal cut.

First Question: Could someone help me with the cut to see if it''s really ideal? Based on the GIA report, the table is 57%. I don''t know the terminology, but to the top left of the table is a 55%. To the top right side, there is a 35.5 degrees and the bottom right side just underneath is 41.4 degrees. In the middle, I believe the depth is 62.8%. In the top middle, I believe the crown is 15.5% and the bottom middle (the pavilion?) is 44.0%. At the bottom point of the diamond, it says none. Going back to the left side of the diamond, the girdle?? shows it''s thin and below states it''s: slightly thick (faceted). Then there is another number at the bottom left hand corner of the diamond standing on its own showing 80%.

I found some websites talking about hearts and arrows and most of these numbers seem to fall within the range. But I''m not sure if it''s ideal. I would appreciate it if someone could help me out with these measurements.

Question 2: If this diamond is really ideal based on measurements, is there a way to determine if there is light leakage on this diamond? In other words, can this stone still be "bad "in the sense it won''t have the "fire" or shine effect. Based on my research, it seams that I need to use an ideal scope? But this guy doesn''t seem to have one in his stand. Based on recommendations, this is a sign for me to run away if he doesn''t have tools for customers to look at a diamond.

Question 3: The sales person at this stand does not own the diamond. I saw him log on to a website called diamonds.net. From there, he retrieved the diamond for me which arrived in his store a few days later. Is this the right way to buy something that costs thousands of dollars? If it''s not his diamond, he doesn''t need to stand by his product. All he does is resell it to me. To make things worse, his policy is no refunds, only exchanges. Is the place where he got the diamond from reliable?

I guess what I''m dealing right now are two issues: Whether the diamond is good and whether I should buy from this guy in this area. I don''t want to judge this guy because of where he works. But the people outside the store really bother me because as soon as I walk out, I feel like I''m being followed. I also heard stories from my coworkers where they bought something in that area and when they were paying, the diamond was switched without them knowing until much later.

In any case, I would appreciate any help or advice provided.
Thanks in advance!
 
NOOOO, RUN!

1. the proportions are pretty bad. classic steep/deep. 35.5 crown angle/41.4 pavilion angle.

2. it's called an Ideal Scope. many sellers are not interested in educating their customers, much less themselves. and places that don't sell nice things definitely don't want informed consumers.

3. the diamond industry is like this...it's quite usual, and the diamonds are out "on memo." don't buy from a place with no returns/exchanges. that's not a good idea. there are places that deal "on memo" and offer returns for a limited time. there are also places that own the majority of diamonds that are in-store.
 
There are many reputable diamond companies here on pricescope and elsewhere that can help locate the best diamond for your money.

Your diamond district diamond hunt is so old school. There is access to 100,000+ diamonds at the click of a mouse and the best GIA''d diamond for your color/clarity and budget specs can be found in moments and you can relax at your work or home and not come close to dealing with the hassle...

Marty
CEO/Pres
Diamond Brokerage Service Inc
www.dbsdiamonds.com
 
He resells it because you don''t have access to the inventory at the cost he is getting. It''s the relationship of trade to wholesale or trade/wholesale to retail.

Marty
CEO/Pres
Diamond Brokerage Service, Inc
www.dbsdiamonds.com
 
Iagree with JulieN. The DD is not where I would buy. Please look into www.engagementringsdrect.com. Mark Turnowski is in the DD but not at street level. You can do a search on him, he comes highly recommended. If you can take the train to LI, check out, www.goodoldgold.com I have worked with them twice while buying an asscher and an oval. It''s worth the train ride for sure. Good luck!!!
 
Thanks Julien,

Now I''m really confused. Should I still follow the ideal scope? If not, then what are the optimal ranges? I thought it was a good diamond because the measurement range falls within the numbers that www.heartsandarrows.com website have provided.
 
Date: 8/27/2008 11:38:51 PM
Author: dazed_and_confused
Thanks Julien,

Now I'm really confused. Should I still follow the ideal scope? If not, then what are the optimal ranges? I thought it was a good diamond because the measurement range falls within the numbers that www.heartsandarrows.com website have provided.
An Ideal Scope is a good idea if you want to shop in-person (not online.) I think the easiest way to the answer "what are the optimal ranges" are the ones that are 2 or under on the HCA. You may prefer different subsets of this.
 
Hi Marty,

Do you have any diamond websites that you have personally used? I know a coworker that bought a diamond from bluenile recently and they were a little bit disappointed after awhile. They felt the diamond lost it''s shine and regretted not buying at a place where they could see the diamond in person.

The problem with me buying from a website is that I still don''t know what the optimal ranges are. I''m hoping that I could find a decent sales person that would maybe teach me a thing or two and at the same time not pressured into buying something.
 
Date: 8/27/2008 11:44:05 PM
Author: dazed_and_confused
Hi Marty,

Do you have any diamond websites that you have personally used? I know a coworker that bought a diamond from bluenile recently and they were a little bit disappointed after awhile. They felt the diamond lost it's shine and regretted not buying at a place where they could see the diamond in person.

The problem with me buying from a website is that I still don't know what the optimal ranges are. I'm hoping that I could find a decent sales person that would maybe teach me a thing or two and at the same time not pressured into buying something.
I'm not Marty, but...

Kaleigh has already suggested two New York vendors that Pricescopers like very much. As well, Excel Diamonds in the diamond district gets favorable mentions.

About the BN stone, maybe they don't clean it enough? Diamonds don't lose their shine, they just need to be cleaned!
 
Hi Dazed and Confused,

One suggestion that i have is, when you go shopping, if it is a GIA stone, have them write down the cert# and carat weight.

GIA has a website, where you can retrieve the reports and then study the number at your leisure (instead of in the presence of the district).

You can use the HCA on pricescope to evaluate one aspect of the diamonds performance.

From your post, its clear that you are not too comfortable with shopping in the district. Having bought an e-ring recently, i know how nutty and stressful it can be. Take your time and see what price ranges you see at the reputable online stores (whiteflash.com, jamesallan.com) and they should give you a ballpark idea of what its going to cost you. Take your time reading some of the FAQ here and educate yourself.

You mentioned you live in NY? After researching, check out goodoldgold.com. They are located in massapequa and have an excellent reputation on pricescope and elsewhere. You can see on their website, the amount of information they make available of each diamond they sell. They love educating their customers and is a no pressure environment. And yes, I ended up buying my e-ring from them (and i''m in the west coast!)

Lastly, I would ask that you reconsider your position on the D color. I''m not saying that it''s bad, but i feel that one will pay a steep premium for that color. A quick look at 1.25 - 1.49 D color round brilliant on JA (Jamesallen.com) puts that in the 20K+ range. If that is what you expected, ignore this complete paragraph.
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Hope this helps! and good luck!
 
Dear Dazed:

I had a D color 3 plus carat stone because I too insisted on a D. It wasnt a great stone--thankfully I was able to sell it and buy another. I now have an E that I love. A badly cut D isnt worth much...................

My suggestion --call one of our great Pricescope vendors--my fave is Whiteflash and tell them you want a D-- or E-- or F
emteeth.gif
with such and such specs and they will help you find it...........they are fabulous and will do their best to find what you want.
 
Hi Julien,
I appreciate your responses. I looked for the HCA and got the following in return: Light return: good; Fire: Fair; Scintillation: Fair; and Spread: Very Good.

I guess what I''m trying to get at is if I''m following the ideal scope and I''m not getting anything near a 0 in terms of a brilliant diamond, then there must be some range to look for.

I''m assuming you''re one of the experienced people that can look at the numbers and say no way, this diamond is no good. But in the back of your mind, there must be some number to look for. Even if it''s your opinion, I would value that rather than have nothing.

If I were to start looking online, I wouldn''t want to keep entering numbers into HCA to see if it has ratings near 0. It would be worse if I was shopping at a store because I would have no idea.
 
You are not following the Ideal Scope, as far as I know. The Ideal Scope is a little pink and black viewer, not a set of proportions. BTW, you don't want 0! It's not possible. But what you want is to be less than 2, and there's a note that most people prefer between 1 and 2.

I don't have to keep entering numbers into HCA because I have them more or less memorized for the more common table sizes.

In store, you can print out the HCA chart for table sizes 53-58, maybe 59, and see if it falls into the white box, which is the AGS ideal candidate box, or you can buy an Ideal Scope.

Online, the best thing to do if you are confused is to post the diamnd on PS. We'll tell you why we like it or why we don't. I think that's a pretty good way to learn what to look for.
 
When you use the Holloway Cut Advisor it isn't meant to hit 0. It is supposed to weed out the bad ones. The range you are looking for is less than 2. Have you read the HCA pages because it explains about the range and recommends not to use it for your final selection. It's one of several tools.

HCA explanation

It sounds like you need a little more education on the subject (PS is great for offering that). And I honestly would stay clear of anyone with a booth who may disappear tomorrow.
 
read some more of the advanced tutorial under knowledge heading above!!!

The idealscope is a tool for viewing diamonds, like a loupe, only an idealscope is a reflector that allows you to evaluate the diamond''s light return ie. its cut quality without numbers from a cert. It is very useful if you want to evaluate diamonds *in person* for buying. Jewelry stores often have sparkle lights that make all diamonds (poor cut, good cut, ideal cut) sparkle sparkle!! That is not what happened to your friend''s blue nile diamond, but it can happen when you buy in person.

Yes, if you want D VS in decent size, you may have to hunt awhile! Also beware it is even more difficult to find a truly excellent cut stone with those parameters. To cut a stone for optimum sparkle, one has to take off more weight, which is very very costly in D/VS. So more often D/VS is not ideal cut, but rather cut to retain extra weight so it can seel for a higher price.

Some of the recommended ps vendors have an excellent return policy if you are displeased once your stone arrives, but if you want to shop in person there have been some NYC area recommendations above! Good luck!
 
Date: 8/27/2008 11:38:51 PM
Author: dazed_and_confused
Thanks Julien,

Now I''m really confused. Should I still follow the ideal scope? If not, then what are the optimal ranges? I thought it was a good diamond because the measurement range falls within the numbers that www.heartsandarrows.com website have provided.
The proportions listed on that site are too wide, and you happen to have a stone that combines to one of the worst possible combos in that range.
 
D and C, I would pass for sure on the diamond you were offered, it is not likely to be a good performer or an attractive diamond. Please take Paul's advice and not use the above chart as a guide, narrow your search by looking at AGS0 and some GIA Excellent to help you find a lovely diamond. Get all the proportions then report back here for further advice if you like.

DEFINITELY look into Kaleigh's suggestions concerning vendors in your area who will take great care of you.
 
Dazed and confused, what is your budget? Perhaps if you posted that some of the experts here can help you find a great diamond from a reputable jeweler.
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Call Mark at Engagement Rings Direct. He will pull some nice stones for you, educate you a bit, and best of all, you can see it in person before you buy. He also has an Ideal Scope you can use.


He''s right on 5th ave (between 47th and 48th) and has access to all the stones you can find online that are from NYC manufacturers.

He''s very trustworthy and can put a lot of your concerns to rest. Definitely never buy from those street level guys or shady looking guys in that store that has 100 booths. They epitomize whats wrong with the diamond business and they are for tourists.

Call / Email Mark today and your problems are solved.
 
ERD is NOT the place for him --Mark is not primarily a cut person he focuses on value and appearance--you are much better off with Excel--or a vendor that really specializes in top quality CUT stones
 
Date: 8/28/2008 12:04:55 PM
Author: bgray
ERD is NOT the place for him --Mark is not primarily a cut person he focuses on value and appearance--you are much better off with Excel--or a vendor that really specializes in top quality CUT stones
Mark can pretty much get hold of anything as far as I am aware due to his location in the DD, so I would have thought he could source superideal/ hearts and arrows on request, even if that isn't what he normally specializes in.
 
Sorry! I wanted to get the measurements of the diamond out and see what people think. Based on everyone''s opinion, this diamond seems to be bad. My budget is no more than $17k. But it seems finding a D color with a VS1 clarity doesn''t look good. =(
 
Date: 8/28/2008 12:04:55 PM
Author: bgray
ERD is NOT the place for him --Mark is not primarily a cut person he focuses on value and appearance--you are much better off with Excel--or a vendor that really specializes in top quality CUT stones
You work for Excel or something? Because I have no idea what you are talking about and neither do you. Have you bought from Mark? I have worked with him and he finds amazingly cut rounds and fancies.

D&C: VS1 might be overkill. I think you can get something in the VS2 clarity range without compromising on quality. If you must have a D that may be the way to go but D-E-F look very similar to most people but if you want to spend on something I would pick color over clarity. Unless, or course, you dont mind getting a smaller stone.
 
Date: 8/28/2008 12:14:49 PM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 8/28/2008 12:04:55 PM
Author: bgray
ERD is NOT the place for him --Mark is not primarily a cut person he focuses on value and appearance--you are much better off with Excel--or a vendor that really specializes in top quality CUT stones
Mark can pretty much get hold of anything as far as I am aware due to his location in the DD, so I would have thought he could source superideal/ hearts and arrows on request, even if that isn''t what he normally specializes in.
My friend bought an AGS0 from him - he can get anything you want and his training is mostly in rounds despite his recent popularity as "the cushion guy". The fact that he has an eye for quality cut cushions says a lot for his abilty to find good gems overall. bgray must have an uncle that works at Excel.
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Hi,

My girlfriend prefers a D color and I''m trying to accomodate her. In terms of preference, I would like to not go lower than VS1.
In terms of carot size, I''m guessing I could get something between 1.25 to 1.30.
Unfortunately, there doesn''t seem to be many choices for comparison. I was told by several sales people from different stores that this makeup is hard to find especially if I want a triple X rating on the GIA report. This seems to be the case as I can''t find good diamonds or I haven''t looked in the right places yet.
 
Date: 8/27/2008 11:14:56 PM
Author: JulieN
NOOOO, RUN!

1. the proportions are pretty bad. classic steep/deep. 35.5 crown angle/41.4 pavilion angle.

2. it''s called an Ideal Scope. many sellers are not interested in educating their customers, much less themselves. and places that don''t sell nice things definitely don''t want informed consumers.

3. the diamond industry is like this...it''s quite usual, and the diamonds are out ''on memo.'' don''t buy from a place with no returns/exchanges. that''s not a good idea. there are places that deal ''on memo'' and offer returns for a limited time. there are also places that own the majority of diamonds that are in-store.
nowadays....they''re cutting more RB with these specs since the manufactures knows GIA will give it an EX cut grade.
 
Hi,

I found another diamond that I''m considering. I would appreciate if people could give me their opinion on this stone.

1. It''s a round diamond. It is 1.28 carot, D color, VS1 clarity, and Excellent cut grade from GIA.
The polish is excellent, BUT the Symmetry is only very good. =(

According to the diagram, the table is 57%. The top left from side from the table is a 50%. To the top right side, there is a 35 degrees and the bottom right side just underneath is 40.8 degrees. In the middle, I believe the depth is 62.2%. In the top middle, I believe the crown is 15% and the bottom middle (the pavilion?) is 43.0%. At the bottom point of the diamond, it says none. Going back to the left side of the diamond, the girdle?? shows it''s medium and below states it''s: slightly thick (faceted). Then there is another number at the bottom left hand corner of the diamond standing on its own showing 80%. There is no flourescence.

With the advice of someone on this forum, I checked the HCA also. If I entered the numbers correctly, I get an excellent on light return, fire, and scintillation. But the spread gets very good rating.

2 . Could someone tell me if the symmetry matters here? I''m guessing it won''t be a "heart and arrows" diamond. I''m surprised the HCA came back with an excellent rating even though the symmetry is suppose to be "off". Unfortunately, I do not know how to tell where the symmetry is the problem. Any advice on this would be appreciated.

3. On a separate issue, I see diamonds with medium flourescence. I checked some websites and the overall opinion is that flourescence is "not good" on diamonds with a color of D, E, of F. Retailers tend to charge less for D, E, and F diamonds with flourescence. But does flourescence interefere with the light return on colorless diamonds? Is it worth buying a D diamond with medium flourescence with everything else being excellent?
 
Date: 8/29/2008 11:30:47 AM
Author: dazed_and_confused
Hi,

I found another diamond that I''m considering. I would appreciate if people could give me their opinion on this stone.

1. It''s a round diamond. It is 1.28 carot, D color, VS1 clarity, and Excellent cut grade from GIA.
The polish is excellent, BUT the Symmetry is only very good. =(

According to the diagram, the table is 57%. The top left from side from the table is a 50%. To the top right side, there is a 35 degrees and the bottom right side just underneath is 40.8 degrees. In the middle, I believe the depth is 62.2%. In the top middle, I believe the crown is 15% and the bottom middle (the pavilion?) is 43.0%. At the bottom point of the diamond, it says none. Going back to the left side of the diamond, the girdle?? shows it''s medium and below states it''s: slightly thick (faceted). Then there is another number at the bottom left hand corner of the diamond standing on its own showing 80%. There is no flourescence.

With the advice of someone on this forum, I checked the HCA also. If I entered the numbers correctly, I get an excellent on light return, fire, and scintillation. But the spread gets very good rating.

2 . Could someone tell me if the symmetry matters here? I''m guessing it won''t be a ''heart and arrows'' diamond. I''m surprised the HCA came back with an excellent rating even though the symmetry is suppose to be ''off''. Unfortunately, I do not know how to tell where the symmetry is the problem. Any advice on this would be appreciated.

3. On a separate issue, I see diamonds with medium flourescence. I checked some websites and the overall opinion is that flourescence is ''not good'' on diamonds with a color of D, E, of F. Retailers tend to charge less for D, E, and F diamonds with flourescence. But does flourescence interefere with the light return on colorless diamonds? Is it worth buying a D diamond with medium flourescence with everything else being excellent?
Don''t worry about VG for spread, only shallower diamonds get EX on the cut advisor usually. VG symmetry needn''t be a deal breaker, you may not notice the difference between that and excellent anyway. D with medium fluorescence can be a nice combo in my opinion, but it is personal preference. I would ask if the vendor can provide an Idealscope image for this diamond.

Do you have the diameter measurement please?
 
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