Beware of Canadian Diamonds sold on Bluenile

[fiftysevenfacets]

All,

I suggest to anyone who is interested in buying a Canadian diamond to do their homework before making such a purchase. Make sure your understanding of what a Canadian Diamond is, is the same as bluenile.

Regards,

57.

 

[Gleam]

Can you elaborate a bit? I did a simple google search and didn''t see any red flags.

I live around the corner from a jeweler that exclusively sells Canadian diamonds. I not only almost fell over at the prices they were asking, but they didn''t even have the size I wanted. I was told it''s very rare to find anything over 2 carats in Canada.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 11/18/2009 5:16:09 PM
Author: Gleam
Can you elaborate a bit? I did a simple google search and didn't see any red flags.

I live around the corner from a jeweler that exclusively sells Canadian diamonds. I not only almost fell over at the prices they were asking, but they didn't even have the size I wanted. I was told it's very rare to find anything over 2 carats in Canada.

Can you please? What are your concerns?

 

[Rockit]

Huh? Please, back-up what you suggest...

 

[Karl_K]

"Canadian Diamonds

In the last twenty years, Canada has become the world''s third largest diamond supplier, producing approximately 15% of the world''s diamonds. Along with the other diamond producing countries, Canada follows the Kimberley Process and has taken a strong leadership role in the diamond industry ensuring their diamonds are produced with strict adherence to ethical and environmental guidelines and fair labor practices.

Canadian diamonds purchased from Blue Nile will be accompanied by a Canadian diamond certificate that states the cut of the diamond, the rough weight, and the polished weight, as well as the Canadian diamond certification number. "

looks to be the same as everywhere else....

 

[John P]

Date: 11/19/2009 9:06:45 AM
Author: Karl_K
''Canadian Diamonds

In the last twenty years, Canada has become the world''s third largest diamond supplier, producing approximately 15% of the world''s diamonds. Along with the other diamond producing countries, Canada follows the Kimberley Process and has taken a strong leadership role in the diamond industry ensuring their diamonds are produced with strict adherence to ethical and environmental guidelines and fair labor practices.

Canadian diamonds purchased from Blue Nile will be accompanied by a Canadian diamond certificate that states the cut of the diamond, the rough weight, and the polished weight, as well as the Canadian diamond certification number. ''

looks to be the same as everywhere else....

True. And by 2016 production may be closer to 1/3 of the world''s supply. The Northwest Territories is already famous, and currently a mining operation in Saskatchewan is being created atop the world’s largest existing diamondiferous kimberlite field.

 

[Regular Guy]

more...

 

[fiftysevenfacets]

Greetings all,

My definition of a Canadian Diamond is one that is mined, Cut and polished in Canada. But I also want to go a step further and ensure that through the process and stages of preparing a diamond which is ready for the market, nothing would have jeopardized the three requirements. How is this ensured, through the Government of Canada and the Northwest Territories see certifiedarcticdiamond.com.

The certificate provided by bluenile for Canadian diamonds is one that certifies that it is mined in Canada but does not meet the requirements that it is cut and polished in Canada.

I phoned the RCMP yesterday and they explained that Bluenile is doing nothing wrong since they are not claiming to have a Government Certified Canadian Diamond.

My original post was due to the fact that Bluenile doesn''t have a single Government Certified Canadian Diamond as governed by the territory itself.

regards,

57.

 

[John P]

Date: 11/19/2009 11:23:26 AM
Author: fiftysevenfacets
Greetings all,

My definition of a Canadian Diamond is one that is mined, Cut and polished in Canada.

Hi 57. That explanation helps. Be aware that, according to the CDCC, the definition of a "Canadian Diamond" is >

Currently over 80% of the world's rough passes through Antwerp after mining and India polishes the vast majority of small stones. The growing relationship Canada enjoys with China - with 0%VAT on rough imports and attractive polishing labor costs - is likely to mean far more diamonds will be polished elsewhere as more are mined there. Also be aware that that CDCC is a voluntary code. Enforcement does not come from above and those diamonds are often polished abroad.

People sometimes confuse CDCC compliant diamonds with Polar Bear diamonds and the associated Northwest Territories Government Monitoring and Certification program - which does verify the tracked diamonds were both mined and manufactured in Canada. This seems to be in-line with your definition.

 

[Todd Gray]

The challenge that I see with most of the diamonds mined in Canada, Cut / Polished in Canada, is that the level of Cut Precision is lacking in comparison to the quality readily available from diamond cutters in other parts of the world... I discussed this at length a few years back with one of the diamond cutting firms out of Canada who was trying to pick us up as a client and he readily confirmed that as an early branch of the diamond world, their skill level was lacking, but that they were looking at the big picture in terms of Canada being a force in the diamond industry a hundred years down the road and not so worried about today.

The fact of the matter is that diamond rough is diamond rough, regardless of where it comes from, but skill is what makes a diamond beautiful and thus when somebody is looking for a diamond crafted out of Canadian diamond rough, they would be wise to look for one which was cut by a skilled craftsman who is capable of unlocking the beauty within the crystal.

 

[kenny]

Fiftysevenfacets, is it a bad thing if a Canadian-mined was cut/polished elsewhere?
Canadian labor is much more expensive than Chinese or Indian.
That higher cost will be passed on to the customer.

Wasn't the whole blood diamond concern related the trafficking of rough diamonds to financially support unethical actions in Africa?
How is this related to that?

Does Bluenile actually state that their Canadian diamonds were cut/polished there, or was that an assumption on your part?

 

[fiftysevenfacets]

Kenny,

You raised two questions that you deserve a response to, "Fiftysevenfacets, is it a bad thing if a Canadian-mined was cut/polished elsewhere?"
Answer: No.

Does Bluenile actually state that their Canadian diamonds were cut/polished there, or was that an assumption on your part?


Answer: No, they make no claim if they are mined and polished in Canada or elsewhere for that matter.

I believe the purest definition of a Canadian diamond is the one certified by the government. This is to say nothing of who should be cutting or polishing the rough that is for another thread. If someone is looking for this purest definition then I suggest you do your homework before purchasing a diamond that is so-called "Canadian".

 

[serenitydiamonds]

Date: 11/19/2009 2:11:58 PM
Author: fiftysevenfacets




Kenny,


You raised two questions that you deserve a response to, ''Fiftysevenfacets, is it a bad thing if a Canadian-mined was cut/polished elsewhere?''

Answer: No.


Does Bluenile actually state that their Canadian diamonds were cut/polished there, or was that an assumption on your part?




Answer: No, they make no claim if they are mined and polished in Canada or elsewhere for that matter.


I believe the purest definition of a Canadian diamond is the one certified by the government. This is to say nothing of who should be cutting or polishing the rough that is for another thread. If someone is looking for this purest definition then I suggest you do your homework before purchasing a diamond that is so-called ''Canadian''.

Typically Canadian Diamond means it was mined from Canada, no more, no less. I prefer Canadian rough for my sensitive customers, but they are not cut and polished in Canada. The expertise on cutting is not what I would consider sufficient for high grade AGS000, tolkowsky ideal, or greater cuts in general. I prefer cutters with generations of artistic experience in diamond cutting, and that''s just not available yet up there.

Canadian Diamond Code of Conduct:
http://www.canadiandiamondcodeofconduct.ca/EN_consumer_information.htm

--Joshua

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 11/19/2009 2:11:58 PM
Author: fiftysevenfacets




Kenny,


You raised two questions that you deserve a response to, ''Fiftysevenfacets, is it a bad thing if a Canadian-mined was cut/polished elsewhere?''

Answer: No.


Does Bluenile actually state that their Canadian diamonds were cut/polished there, or was that an assumption on your part?




Answer: No, they make no claim if they are mined and polished in Canada or elsewhere for that matter.


I believe the purest definition of a Canadian diamond is the one certified by the government. This is to say nothing of who should be cutting or polishing the rough that is for another thread. If someone is looking for this purest definition then I suggest you do your homework before purchasing a diamond that is so-called ''Canadian''.

Perhaps that’s a definition of Canadian goods but it’s not the only or even the most common one. For that matter, it’s not even the US legal definition of ‘made in Canada’. That has to do with where it’s cut, not where the rough was mined so a stone mined elsewhere but cut by an artist in Yellowknife could be described as ‘made in Canada’.

By all means those who wish to support both the Canadian cutting and mining industries are welcome and even encouraged to do so and the sellers can trumpet this as an added benefit but I see nothing wrong with stones that are mined in Canada but cut elsewhere being promoted as what they are, regardless of who the retailer is.

Definitions are routinely a problem with this sort of thing but in this case I think the dealers are mostly pretty clear. ''Canadian diamond'' means mined in Canada, ''made in Canada'' means cut in Canada. GNWT certifies stones that meet both and that are submitted to them for documentation. It all strikes me as pretty clear in a world where my Honda was assembled in Canada out of US and Japanese parts but the sticker on the door says only ''made in Canada''.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[fiftysevenfacets]

Date: 11/19/2009 2:40:24 PM
Author: denverappraiser

Date: 11/19/2009 2:11:58 PM
Author: fiftysevenfacets





Kenny,


You raised two questions that you deserve a response to, ''Fiftysevenfacets, is it a bad thing if a Canadian-mined was cut/polished elsewhere?''

Answer: No.


Does Bluenile actually state that their Canadian diamonds were cut/polished there, or was that an assumption on your part?





Answer: No, they make no claim if they are mined and polished in Canada or elsewhere for that matter.


I believe the purest definition of a Canadian diamond is the one certified by the government. This is to say nothing of who should be cutting or polishing the rough that is for another thread. If someone is looking for this purest definition then I suggest you do your homework before purchasing a diamond that is so-called ''Canadian''.

Perhaps that’s a definition of Canadian goods but it’s not the only or even the most common one. For that matter, it’s not even the US legal definition of ‘made in Canada’. That has to do with where it’s cut, not where the rough was mined so a stone mined elsewhere but cut by an artist in Yellowknife could be described as ‘made in Canada’.

By all means those who wish to support both the Canadian cutting and mining industries are welcome and even encouraged to do so and the sellers can trumpet this as an added benefit but I see nothing wrong with stones that are mined in Canada but cut elsewhere being promoted as what they are, regardless of who the retailer is.

Definitions are routinely a problem with this sort of thing but in this case I think the dealers are mostly pretty clear. ''Canadian diamond'' means mined in Canada, ''made in Canada'' means cut in Canada. GNWT certifies stones that meet both and that are submitted to them for documentation. It all strikes me as pretty clear in a world where my Honda was assembled in Canada out of US and Japanese parts but the sticker on the door says only ''made in Canada''.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

Neil,

Can you suggest a methodology for a definition to claim a diamond is "Canadian" that is better than the one provided by the Government of Canada?

 

[denverappraiser]

Perhaps the first definition required is what is a diamond? I’m inclined to include both rough and cut stones in this category. Given that, a ‘Canadian diamond’ would be a stone produced from a mine in Canada. I would not think that cutting, setting, or selling it elsewhere dilutes this fundamental attribute of Canadianness although ‘proof’ of origin is another sticky area. This is not a gemological property after all. It may still be Canadian even if no one can prove or even knows it, but for a merchant to be promoting this is an attribute requires a credible paper trail. That’s where the government paperwork does well but we’re back to the definitional problem. What constitutes sufficient evidence to be a credible provenance? For some a simple claim by the jeweler is sufficient and others want a signed and notarized statement by the miner.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[Lorelei]

57,

How is your diamond search coming along or have you bought one already?

 

[fiftysevenfacets]

Date: 11/19/2009 3:14:30 PM
Author: denverappraiser
Perhaps the first definition required is what is a diamond? I’m inclined to include both rough and cut stones in this category. Given that, a ‘Canadian diamond’ would be a stone produced from a mine in Canada. I would not think that cutting, setting, or selling it elsewhere dilutes this fundamental attribute of Canadianness although ‘proof’ of origin is another sticky area. This is not a gemological property after all. It may still be Canadian even if no one can prove or even knows it, but for a merchant to be promoting this is an attribute requires a credible paper trail. That’s where the government paperwork does well but we’re back to the definitional problem. What constitutes sufficient evidence to be a credible provenance? For some a simple claim by the jeweler is sufficient and others want a signed and notarized statement by the miner.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

I must say its quite alarming when an "Appraiser"...and not just any appraiser, but a Professional Appraiser in Denver is having difficulty defining a diamond.

Nonetheless, I began this thread with "My" definition of a "Canadian" diamond....and I''m asking what definition would be more pure than the one that was proposed.

 

[Lorelei]

......

 

[John P]

Date: 11/19/2009 4:02:29 PM
Author: fiftysevenfacets

Date: 11/19/2009 3:14:30 PM
Author: denverappraiser
Perhaps the first definition required is what is a diamond? I’m inclined to include both rough and cut stones in this category. Given that, a ‘Canadian diamond’ would be a stone produced from a mine in Canada. I would not think that cutting, setting, or selling it elsewhere dilutes this fundamental attribute of Canadianness although ‘proof’ of origin is another sticky area. This is not a gemological property after all. It may still be Canadian even if no one can prove or even knows it, but for a merchant to be promoting this is an attribute requires a credible paper trail. That’s where the government paperwork does well but we’re back to the definitional problem. What constitutes sufficient evidence to be a credible provenance? For some a simple claim by the jeweler is sufficient and others want a signed and notarized statement by the miner.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

I must say its quite alarming when an 'Appraiser'...and not just any appraiser, but a Professional Appraiser in Denver is having difficulty defining a diamond.

Nonetheless, I began this thread with 'My' definition of a 'Canadian' diamond....and I'm asking what definition would be more pure than the one that was proposed.

Easy there. I thought Neil's post was a good outline of why this topic isn't black and white.

In any event, I am pretty sure he can define a diamond. He has a moissanite tester...I've seen it.

 

[serenitydiamonds]

Date: 11/19/2009 4:02:29 PM
Author: fiftysevenfacets

Date: 11/19/2009 3:14:30 PM

Author: denverappraiser

Perhaps the first definition required is what is a diamond? I’m inclined to include both rough and cut stones in this category. Given that, a ‘Canadian diamond’ would be a stone produced from a mine in Canada. I would not think that cutting, setting, or selling it elsewhere dilutes this fundamental attribute of Canadianness although ‘proof’ of origin is another sticky area. This is not a gemological property after all. It may still be Canadian even if no one can prove or even knows it, but for a merchant to be promoting this is an attribute requires a credible paper trail. That’s where the government paperwork does well but we’re back to the definitional problem. What constitutes sufficient evidence to be a credible provenance? For some a simple claim by the jeweler is sufficient and others want a signed and notarized statement by the miner.


Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

Professional Appraisals in Denver

I must say its quite alarming when an ''Appraiser''...and not just any appraiser, but a Professional Appraiser in Denver is having difficulty defining a diamond.

Nonetheless, I began this thread with ''My'' definition of a ''Canadian'' diamond....and I''m asking what definition would be more pure than the one that was proposed.

As stated earlier, this link is the best and the official definition of Canadian Diamond:

http://www.canadiandiamondcodeofconduct.ca/EN_consumer_information.htm

As for paper trail, that''s all up to the customer and what documentation they require.

--Joshua

 

[John P]

Date: 11/19/2009 4:27:42 PM
Author: serenitydiamonds

As stated earlier, this link is the best and the official definition of Canadian Diamond:

http://www.canadiandiamondcodeofconduct.ca/EN_consumer_information.htm

As for paper trail, that's all up to the customer and what documentation they require.

--Joshua

Joshua probably saw that I posted that link before too...

Along with the fact that CDCC is a voluntary code, enforcement does not come from above and people may confuse CDCC compliancy with Polar Bear diamonds and the associated Northwest Territories Government Monitoring and Certification program - which does verify the tracked diamonds were both mined and manufactured in Canada.

...Which brings me back to supporting Neil. Even though he is from Denver.

 

[Gleam]

Isn't it all a little fuzzy, for any given item? Like watches being "made in Switzerland" when only 50% of the watch (or some such similar percentage) has to be made and/or assembled in Switzerland?

And how certain $500 designer shoes say "made in Italy" when in fact, all the parts of the shoes were made in Vietnam or China, then were sent to Italy to have the sole put on?

 

[John P]

Date: 11/19/2009 4:35:25 PM
Author: Gleam
Isn''t it all a little fuzzy, for any given item? Like watches being ''made in Switzerland'' when only 50% of the watch (or some such similar percentage) has to be made and/or assembled in Switzerland?

And how certain $500 designer shoes say ''made in Italy'' when in fact, all the parts of the shoes were made in Vietnam or China, then were sent to Italy to have the sole put on?

Certainly for diamonds.

"Made in Pangaea?"

 

[serenitydiamonds]

Date: 11/19/2009 5:11:14 PM
Author: John Pollard

Date: 11/19/2009 4:35:25 PM

Author: Gleam

Isn''t it all a little fuzzy, for any given item? Like watches being ''made in Switzerland'' when only 50% of the watch (or some such similar percentage) has to be made and/or assembled in Switzerland?


And how certain $500 designer shoes say ''made in Italy'' when in fact, all the parts of the shoes were made in Vietnam or China, then were sent to Italy to have the sole put on?

Certainly for diamonds.


''Made in Pangaea?''

Dude, awesome, lol. And technically correct

--J

 

[Gleam]

Date: 11/19/2009 5:11:14 PM
Author: John Pollard

Date: 11/19/2009 4:35:25 PM

Author: Gleam

Isn''t it all a little fuzzy, for any given item? Like watches being ''made in Switzerland'' when only 50% of the watch (or some such similar percentage) has to be made and/or assembled in Switzerland?


And how certain $500 designer shoes say ''made in Italy'' when in fact, all the parts of the shoes were made in Vietnam or China, then were sent to Italy to have the sole put on?

Certainly for diamonds.


''Made in Pangaea?''

LOL You''re the greatest, John. I swear somebody is going to steal your idea and I''ll see it on the sole of my next pair of shoes.

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 11/19/2009 4:02:29 PM
Author: fiftysevenfacets
I must say its quite alarming when an ''Appraiser''...and not just any appraiser, but a Professional Appraiser in Denver is having difficulty defining a diamond.

Nonetheless, I began this thread with ''My'' definition of a ''Canadian'' diamond....and I''m asking what definition would be more pure than the one that was proposed.

Indeed. Your definition seems to be different from mine in that mine includes uncut stones while yours apparently does not. Use whatever standard you wish in your shopping but your definition differs from what is being used by nearly everyone else, including the government of Canada. They consider all diamonds produced from any mine located anywhere in Canada to be Canadian diamonds (and tax them accordingly). That seems like a fairly pure definition.

Then again, maybe it’s just the thin air here.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[fiftysevenfacets]

Date: 11/19/2009 7:10:24 PM
Author: denverappraiser

Date: 11/19/2009 4:02:29 PM
Author: fiftysevenfacets
I must say its quite alarming when an ''Appraiser''...and not just any appraiser, but a Professional Appraiser in Denver is having difficulty defining a diamond.

Nonetheless, I began this thread with ''My'' definition of a ''Canadian'' diamond....and I''m asking what definition would be more pure than the one that was proposed.

Indeed. Your definition seems to be different from mine in that mine includes uncut stones while yours apparently does not. Use whatever standard you wish in your shopping but your definition differs from what is being used by nearly everyone else, including the government of Canada. They consider all diamonds produced from any mine located anywhere in Canada to be Canadian diamonds (and tax them accordingly). That seems like a fairly pure definition.

Then again, maybe it’s just the thin air here.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

Am curious, can you provide the survey you took that included " nearly everyone else"?

This is good Neil, you gave me a clear definition of what a Canadian diamond is. So going back to my original post : When someone is shopping for a Canadian diamond they should beware of the definition of a Canadian diamond and what they think they are buying i.e. A mined Canadian diamond vs. a Mined, Cut and Polished diamond.

Thank you for making my point

 

[fiftysevenfacets]

Date: 11/19/2009 3:41:59 PM
Author: Lorelei
57,

How is your diamond search coming along or have you bought one already?

Hi Lorelei,

My diamond search is coming along to say the least, thanks for asking! I''m going back and forth with my original choice and I keep educating myself from different resources , including this great site.

57

 

[denverappraiser]

If you want a diamond that''s guaranteed to be mined and cut in Canada, the easiest way to get that is to buy from a dealer who sells stones with the government issued certificate. Not all Canadian diamonds meet this standard, in fact the majority do not. When in doubt, ask to see the paperwork.


Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver