Before I pull the trigger...

[SureShoe]

I hate being a newb on message boards! But, I wanted to get some expert insight.

I'm looking at a 1.20, SI1, H diamond. The table is 58%, the depth is 63.3%. The polish is VG-G, sym is VG. It's EGL. The price is $6020.

I know that's not perfect information, and I don't expect anyone to give me a "to-the-penny" appraisal

The store I'm buying it from has the exact setting we want (Precision Set FlushFit). And, it's a bit of an upscale jeweler (James Free). I assume I could get a better price for similar quality over the net, but I'm willing to pay a mark-up for my fiance-to-be to enjoy the experience this jeweler gives a buyer. Of course, I'd like for that to be a reasonable mark-up, not $1000+.

So, here's my question. Based on the info I've given, can you set my mind at ease that I'm not getting taken if I pull the trigger on this purchase. Or, should I look for some "gotchas".

I appreciate you putting up with my newb-ness

EDIT: as a note, the EGL cert indicates it's a "premium" cut. From what I've read, EGL is a little less trust-worthy than GIA, but I'm hoping this isn't pure tripe, hehe. Also, this place sells very, very expensive jewels, so I'm ASSUMING it's not a scam joint. I tried to haggle a bit and they insisted their diamonds are priced to sell, which gives me confidence (which may or may not be misplaced).

Again, thanks for the hand-holding

 

[JulieN]

Online prices for something comparable is about 5K

 

[Gypsy]

Here's my advice: First, do you have a way to get us crown and pavillion angles on the diamond?

I personally wouldn't by an EGL diamond without taking it to an independant (this is important-- and independant is not linked to any jewelry store) appraiser and have them do a cert check on it. Also I'd want a sarin and an ideal scope before buying. These should not be a big deal for a 'big name' jewler store.

Finally, you are sounded a bit cowed by their greatness. Which is what they want. Get over it. This isn't the only place that has Flush fit, the only place you can get a nice diamond, or the only place you can get 'the experience.' I don't care if your spending 6K or 60K. You are the consumer. Period. Make them work for your business.

ETA: Finally... what are they offering you in terms of continued service and upgrade policy? Or is snooty the beginning and end of their service.

 

[SureShoe]

I''m trying to be organized Here are some diamonds I found specifically on this site:

These diamonds are VS2 instead of SI1, and GIA instead of EGL, so I''m assuming that accounts for them being more. I had trouble finding an exact match, but I got several which were close in price and features.

I don''t want to fool myself into thinking I''m getting a good deal, but I don''t want to chase a snipe

1.20 H VS2 62.8% 58% GIA stk-tk no vg vg $6300*SP
1.20 H VS2 62.8% 58% GIA stk-tk no vg vg $6304*S

This one here is the nearest match, almost exact except it''s depth is 63.5 instead of 63.3. Also, the pol/sym is ex/ex instead of vg-g/vg.
1.20 H SI1 63.5% 58% GIA med-thk no ex ex mb $6181SF

1.20 G VS2 63.2% 58% GIA ex ex $7923SF

This one seems pretty comparable, except the depth is less and it''s G vs. H. I''m not sure the difference (good or bad), 63.3 vs. 63 makes. Otherwise, they''re nearly identical.
1.20 G SI1 63% 58% GIA vg vg $5920*SP

This is nearly identical as well, but it''s gd/gd instead of vg-gd/gd. Of course, it''s a $1000 cheaper, which concerns me a tad.
1.21 H SI1 63.5% 58% EGL gd gd no 6.73x6.63x4.24 $4078 $4934*


Sorry for the rambling! Just thinking outloud so you know I''ve actually tried to research this myself

 

[JulieN]

the preset for depth is 58 to 63. the H&A preset max is 62.3 don''t go past 62.3. 60-62 is best.

 

[SureShoe]

Gypsy I appreciate your post.

There is a tad bit of snooty there, and honestly, I''m fine with paying a bit for that. My girl is a bit into it
I want to walk the line between getting a solid deal and still buying an experience. I will get an independent appraisal.

They do the whole "free cleaning and inspection every 6 months" and they''ll cover minor repairs. If the diamond falls out of the setting though, I have to make an insurance claim. They guarantee trade-in price (so if I pay $6000, I get $6000 if I upgrade). That''s not a major decision point, but it is worth consideration. I''m not super-sure how that works for internet buys.

I''m visiting the store tomorrow morning, so I''ll get an exact copy of the cert.

 

[Dancing Fire]

SS

all those diamonds that you posted above looks deep.

 

[Kaleigh]

Date: 7/12/2006 11:38:25 PM
Author: Dancing Fire
SS

all those diamonds that you posted above looks deep.

I gotta agree.

 

[mrssalvo]

nothing wrong with wanting to purchasing locally from a B & M. just be sure the diamond you buy is a great one. I''m with the others that I''d pass on all the ones you posted. I personally would stick with AGS000 or GIA ex/ex stones and go from there. This high end jeweler should be able to get some in if he doesn''t have any in stock. CUT is so very important and educating yourself will guarantee you get the best diamond for the best price even locally. I love the precision set line too.

 

[Lorelei]

SureShoe welcome

We were all newbies once! I agree with the others, the diamonds you have posted are too deep and that would knock them out of the running for me at once. Buy at a B&M if you prefer, just take your time and make sure you are getting the best you can at the best price. This means it would be very much in your best interests to learn about cut quality and find the best cut diamond you can to blow your GF 's socks off!

 

[MissGotRocks]

Good Old Gold sells PrecisionSet mountings. I have a PrecisionSet mounting and am very happy with it (although I did not purchase it from GOG). You can go to their website to look at their comparable diamonds and their settings. I would suggest giving them a call for some camparison shopping before you buy. Free cleaning and checking of prongs is not enough of an incentive to overpay for a stone. Any reputable jeweler will provide that service for you. The stones you have listed raise some flags in terms of depth and possibly table sizes. If you are a first time buyer, you are in a wonderful position to choose any vendor with any trade up policy you choose. Just explore all options - B&M as well as online - before you make your final decision. Good luck!

 

[SureShoe]

I hope everyone knows how much I sincerely appreciate the help! Buying a car is sooooo much easier than this!

OK... I've done a ton of digging, and I was hoping someone could say something NEGATIVE about James Allen for me
EVERYTHING I've read on this site about DCD and James Allen are ridiculously positive. The prices I've found on their site destroy everything else I've found.

Am I nuts?

Take these examples, and compare them to the diamond I was originally looking at (1.20, H, SI1, 63.3depth, 58table, VG-Gpol, VGsym, $6020).

James Allen has:
Round 1.09 H SI1 Ideal AGS 61.7% 55.9% ID/ID $ 5,680
Slightly smaller, but blows away the diamond at the store.

Round 1.17 H SI1 Ideal GIA 61.1% 56% EX/EX $ 6,020
The exact same price. Yeah, I lose .03 carat, but the cut quality completely blows away the first diamond I was considering. And, it's GIA instead of EGL.
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamond.asp?cid=131&item=860712
I think this is the diamond I'm going to buy, based on the input you crazy cats give me

I'm going batty over here. Will someone tell me this is too good to be true and James Allen is a scam joint

Again, thanks for the help!

 

[Lorelei]

NO way will we tell you that JA and his diamonds are a scam and too good to be true! Jim is a great guy who runs a highly repected business with many many happy customers and repeat customers!

So now you are really starting to look, it would be great if you could post the crown and pavillion angles of your choices so we can help you further. Crown and pav angles are crucial to determine cut quality ( not that Jim will sell you a woofer!) but these are needed so that you can weed out the better performers. Post these if you can and we can go from there or add the links to your thread. OK just spotted the link to the second one.

The crown and pav angles are a tiny bit out of my pref range, but it still could be a winner - but the vth - th girdle would need checking out to make sure there aren't any durability issues with the v thin part. Jim will look at each diamond for you and advise accordingly and may even suggest some once he knows what you are looking for. Also just check with Jim that this diamond is eyeclean, due to the small dark inclusion on the right of the table.

 

[mrssalvo]

Jamesallen is a wonderful respected vendor around here and he knows his diamonds.

 

[SureShoe]

Here''s the one I''m leaning toward...
Item Number: 860712
Shape: Round
Carat weight: 1.17
Cut: Ideal
Color: H
Clarity: SI1
Certificate: GIA

Depth: 61.1%
Table: 56%
Polish: Excellent - Ideal
Symmetry: Excellent - Ideal
Girdle: VTH-TH
Culet: None
Fluorescence: None
Measurements: 6.81*6.87*4.18

Crown Angle: 34.0°
Crown %: 15.0
Pavillion Angle: 41.0°
Pavillion %: 43.5

Here''s another
Item Number: 864853
Shape: Round
Carat weight: 1.15
Cut: Ideal
Color: H
Clarity: SI1
Certificate: GIA

Depth: 60.7%
Table: 57%
Polish: Excellent - Ideal
Symmetry: Excellent - Ideal
Girdle: TN-M F
Culet: None
Fluorescence: None
Measurements: 6.77*6.80*4.12

Here is another very nice looking one, but the pol/sym is slightly less than the others. How important is that?
Item Number: 847794
Shape: Round
Carat weight: 1.16
Cut: Ideal
Color: H
Clarity: SI1
Certificate: GIA

Depth: 61.8%
Table: 55%
Polish: Very Good
Symmetry: Very Good
Girdle: M-STK
Culet: None
Fluorescence: None
Measurements: 6.72*6.74*4.16


Lastly, another 1.17 that appears to be excellent.
Item Number: 864361
Shape: Round
Carat weight: 1.17
Cut: Ideal
Color: H
Clarity: SI1
Certificate: GIA

Depth: 62%
Table: 57%
Polish: Excellent - Ideal
Symmetry: Excellent - Ideal
Girdle: M-STK F
Culet: None
Fluorescence: None
Measurements: 6.74*6.75*4.18



I feel like I''m making you guys do all the work. I''m dreading to see the consulting bills you send me

 

[mrssalvo]

hey surehoe,

do you have the crown and pavillion angle's for the bottom 3 stones?

I ran the first one thru the HCA and it scored a 1.3 which is great. that stone does have a very thin - thin girdle though which i'd probably avoid since very thin girdles are prown to chipping..

I'd personally skip number 3 as well b/c I like to stick with ex/ex polish and symmetry...


eTA: #2 has some potential if you can get those angle's

 

[diamondseeker2006]

SureShoe, you''re getting closer, but there are two more numbers you need to include and that is the crown angle and pavilion angle. Try to stick with the James Allen stones that show the cert and pictures as they are stones he has in-house and can look at them for you. Also, you''d avoid those like the first one with very thin girdles. You want the girdle to be thin, medium, or slightly thick or a combination of those three.

 

[turtledazzle]

I looked up the second one (#864853), and it should be a great choice if it is eye-clean.

From the GIA report, the cr and pav angles are 34.5 and 40.8. Combined with the 60.7% depth and 57% table, that gives you an HCA of 1.3 - Excellent within TIC range (ex,ex,ex,vg).

Check if that one is eye-clean!

BTW, we purchased my diamond from James Allen, and it was a great experience (Jennifer Norbury helped us, and she was very patient and nice). The Pricescope discount is great too!

 

[turtledazzle]

Here is another I found (I''m procrastinating at work, if you couldn''t tell ...)
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamond.asp?cid=131&item=866249
Item Number: 866249
Shape: Round
Carat weight: 1.15
Cut: Ideal
Color: I
Clarity: SI1
Certificate: GIA

Depth: 61.8%
Table: 56%
Polish: Excellent - Ideal
Symmetry: Excellent - Ideal
Girdle: Medium to slightly t
Culet: None
Fluorescence: None
Measurements: 6.71*6.75*4.16

Crown Angle: 34.5°
Crown %: 15
Pavillion Angle: 40.8°
Pavillion %: 43

It is a little bit deeper and the girdle is m-sltk and thus has a bit smaller measurements, but scores well on the HCA (Total Visual Performance 1.3 - Excellent within TIC range). The list price is great ($5260)! But, of course, check if it is eye-clean (the magnified pic looked good to me, but I don''t have lots of experience with this

 

[SureShoe]

Thanks you guys! I will stick to the ones with Crown+Pav listed.

I''m sorry to report I just had a MISERABLE experience at the local jeweler. I''m really disheartened. I took some of my numbers in, hoping to have a civil discussion. They became very combative and effectively insulted me with comments like, "when people bring in mathematics, I just want to throw them away - diamonds are all about beauty, not a bunch of statistics." OK, I understand there is a visual element that numbers can''t perfectly represent. BUT there is obvious value to having proper proportions.

After I asked some questions, they passed me off to their "certified gemologist." She RECOILED at the suggestion of having their diamond appraised. She said, "I can appraise the diamond for you, I''m certified." The James Allen rep I spoke to (love ya Dave!) encouraged me to get an appraisal of his diamond.

The lady also indicated that all the numbers on the internet were probably fabrications. When I said, that''s why I''d get it appraised she said, "why would you want to go through that hassle." She also said gold was "mallet-able" (not malleable).... hah. Anyway, that struck me as funny since she''s an expert.

I''m not trying to bare-bones the jeweler. I really want to buy from them. I even asked them if they would set a diamond I purchase elsewhere. Again, they cringed at the suggestion, saying they might break the diamond I bought and that would be my tough luck. So here, I''m offering to pay them $3000 on marked up wedding bands, and they can''t even play nice. Anyway, sorry for the RANT.

I''ve decided I''m going to pay James Allen to make me a custom set. I have to be careful not to trust them too much, but based on the feedback here and the numbers I''ve looked at, I''m going to get MUCH higher quality and probably spend $2000 or so less (after the savings on sales tax alone!)

MAN I RAMBLE!!!

Turtle, I did look at your suggestions and GREATLY appreciate them. However, at the jeweler I did look at some Es and Fs vs. Hs, and the difference is noticeable. If my girl puts her diamond beside someone else''s, I want hers to be on par in whiteness (or more white). So, I''m going to bite the bullet on this one and go F.

SOOOO... based on all this jibber jabber, I think I''ve narrowed it down to 2 candidates. Both are F in color, but one is VS2 and one is SI1.

Door #1
Smaller, but higher quality... I''m thinking this would be nice.
On the magnified image, it looks like the inclusions are right in the middle of the diamond. Is that a concern?
Item Number: 860652
Shape: Round
Carat weight: 1.11
Cut: Ideal
Color: F
Clarity: SI1
Certificate: AGS

Depth: 61.1%
Table: 56.1%
Polish: Ideal
Symmetry: Ideal
Girdle: THN-MED
Culet: None
Fluorescence: Neglible
Measurements: 6.67*6.70*4.09

Crown Angle: 35.0°
Crown %: 15.4
Pavillion Angle: 40.8°
Pavillion %: 43.1

HCA: 1.5 (I learned how to run this, hehe)
Light Return Excellent
Fire Excellent
Scintillation Excellent
Spread or diameter for weight Very Good
$6390.

Door #2
Here is one that is still a bit smaller, but a higher clarity.
The question is, should I go for VS2 instead of SI1?
Item Number: 861663
Shape: Round
Carat weight: 1.02
Cut: Ideal
Color: F
Clarity: VS2
Certificate: GIA

Depth: 60.7%
Table: 56%
Polish: Excellent - Ideal
Symmetry: Excellent - Ideal
Girdle: THN-MED
Culet: None
Fluorescence: None
Measurements: 6.49*6.53*3.95

Crown Angle: 34.0°
Crown %: 14.5
Pavillion Angle: 40.6°
Pavillion %: 43

HCA: 0.5
Light Return Excellent
Fire Excellent
Scintillation Excellent
Spread or diameter for weight Very Good
$7200


That''s it folks. I''m going to mock of the band I want James Allen to create and go from there.
I would love any additional input you have on the diamonds! I wish there was some way for me to express my grattitude!

 

[whatmeworry]

Good Rant. and rightfully so. Now on to more pleasant thoughts. I think you can ask James Allen if they think the SI1 is "eye-clean". If you''re happy with that then go for it. Save a couple of $$ and buy her some earrings too. Best of luck.

 

[turtledazzle]

I''m so sorry about your experience with the jeweler today. I''m beginning to realize that we were really lucky in our experiences with our local jewelers.

I just want to say that I know *much less* about diamonds than most of the people on here. My only experience was buying my e-ring diamond (through JA) back in May. But I learned soooo much from this forum, that I want to help others and I just cannot seem to leave

(My fiance laughs at me, saying that I''ve finally turned into a girl about something -- unfortuantely for him, it''s diamonds!)

One thing regarding color: at the jewelry store, were you looking only at excellent/ideal cut diamonds? Diamonds with excellent cuts will face up much whiter than those that are less well-cut. When I was looking, I realized that H was my limit -- with I colored stones I started to see twinges of yellow. But color is a very personal thing -- some are much more color-sensitive than others and F is a great color!

I agree with "whatmeworry" -- check to see if that 1.11 is eye-clean. On the magnified view, the central inclusions are pretty easily seen, but if it is eye-clean that should be a great stone!