Been Wondering When This Would Happen - Lawsuit Over Grading

[Texas Leaguer]

Re: Been Wondering When This Would Happen - Lawsuit Over Gra

For those interested in additional discussion about EGLI you might want to see this thread:
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/first-time-diamond-wholesale-purchase.201496/page-2']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/first-time-diamond-wholesale-purchase.201496/page-2[/URL]

it contains some discussion about this article among other things:
http://www.diamonds.net/News/NewsItem.aspx?ArticleID=43417

 

[Rockdiamond]

Re: Been Wondering When This Would Happen - Lawsuit Over Gra

David- my experience with the colorimeter is that its not bulletproof in any way.
This goes back a few years- maybe you have more recent experience.
Is it your experience that these color grading machines are infallible- or even very accurate?

I think the issue is less whether the machines are accurate it's that the way our world works now value is established largely by what the GIA calls a diamond not what it "objectively" or scientifically is. To be useful in the world as it exists, a colorimeter needs to accurately predict what the GIA will call a diamond, not accurately describe with scientific precision what the diamond is. So being "better" than the GIA is not necessarily a commercial asset. Nobody will pay you for a G color if the GIA calls it an H no matter what the machine says. And no one will sell you a GIA G for an H price because the machine calls it an H.

Of course none of this has to do with EGL Int'l whose grading does not seem to have any relationship to diamond grading as any of us know it.

FANTASTIC analysis Stan!

In fact, one of the cases I remember was a stone that the colorimeter called a "strong" H ( it was close to G) and GIA gave the stone I color.
I did agree that the stone was an H.
It was a 3ct round ( iirc) and the cutter was pissed as helk.

 

[Modified Brilliant]

Re: Been Wondering When This Would Happen - Lawsuit Over Gra

This post may be a little off topic but....once upon a time there was a large national jewelry retail chain (no longer in business) who sold their diamonds based on their own "in house" grading system. Here is the grading system:
AAAA= H-K color, VS 2-SI1
AAA=I-L color, SI 2- SI 3
AA+= I color, I-L
AA=J-M, I 1
A+= L-Top Light Brown, I 2
A=L-Top Light Brown, I 3

Did this "in-house" grading standard represent GIA grading or EGL grading or XYZ grading or who knows what grading?
An "A+" grading looked pretty impressive on a ring price tag to the consumer back in the 80's-90's.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Re: Been Wondering When This Would Happen - Lawsuit Over Gra

This post may be a little off topic but....once upon a time there was a large national jewelry retail chain (no longer in business) who sold their diamonds based on their own "in house" grading system. Here is the grading system:
AAAA= H-K color, VS 2-SI1
AAA=I-L color, SI 2- SI 3
AA+= I color, I-L
AA=J-M, I 1
A+= L-Top Light Brown, I 2
A=L-Top Light Brown, I 3

Did this "in-house" grading standard represent GIA grading or EGL grading or XYZ grading or who knows what grading?
An "A+" grading looked pretty impressive on a ring price tag to the consumer back in the 80's-90's.

Jeff, I remember seeing systems like that. G*d forbid they throw a B or C grade into their grading!
I3 Light Brown = "A Grade" Sure.

Right up there with the perpetural 50% off sale.

Unfortunately the current state of affairs requires either better self policing of the industry- which doesn't show signs of happening- or some form of stepped up government regulation - which I'm sure would not be popular.

Meanwhile caveat emptor applies. But like someone mentioned, the good news for consumers is that there is information available on the internet to help them navigate diamond purchases and avoid major pitfalls, if they have a desire to do a little research. Or get significant purchases verified by an independent, properly credentialed diamond professional. Preferably both.

 

[oldminer]

Re: Been Wondering When This Would Happen - Lawsuit Over Gra

I was not at all referring to a colorimeter or colorimetry. There are far more, well developed diamond color grading devices in the works that have been under development for close to 15 years which have still not had a large impact on grading. However, these new devices do grade diamond color very well and I am sure that some version of them will be adopted in the near future. Could such a machine be still further improved? Of course. In the past decade or so one can say the same for cell phones and most every other tech gadget. Right now, the color grading of 95% plus of colorless to Z color diamonds of any color tint can be handled by machine grading under the supervision of a gemologist. A non-expert operates the grading device which can process everything we need to know except clarity in about a 3 minute time frame. One operator can run 4 devices simultaneously for an output of 80 stones per hour 24/7 if they were busy enough to justify round the clock operations. All these graders are connected via the Internet to a central single hub where all programming and calibration verification takes place. Any user, in any part of the world can grade the same as any other. The 95%plus figure will only get even better over time with more use and a wider variety of diamonds for processing. The largest chain in the USA, Zales, uses this grading on a particular upmarket brand they offer for sale and appears to be pleased with the process.

I have owned 3 "colorimeters" in the past. Neat machines which just do not grade diamonds for color very well. I sold my colorimeters before they became doorstops. The only way to know how something really works is to buy it an use it for a while. If a colorimeter gives you a correct grade, that's fine, but it can give you a different grade at any time on the same diamond. The technology using a hemisphere for grabbing color is a faulty technique which does not work well for diamonds mostly due to their dispersion causing misreading in the colorimetry..

 

[oldminer]

Re: Been Wondering When This Would Happen - Lawsuit Over Gra

David- my experience with the colorimeter is that its not bulletproof in any way.
This goes back a few years- maybe you have more recent experience.
Is it your experience that these color grading machines are infallible- or even very accurate?

I totally agree with you on the older colorimeters not being worthwhile. Recent experience with new technology is definitely "otherwise". Grading accuracy with the right device is much more accurate, consistent and repeatable that any human grading, but like all technology, the early models now have smaller zones of hoped for improvement, but this is the same with all breakthrough technology. Being able to grade in the high 90's percentages already to GIA grading results has been accomplished on the entire range of normally traded colorless to non-fancy tinted colors of diamonds. These stones alone are a huge number on an annual basis. Extending this grading to fancy colors is already in the works and is an issue that technology and programming address.

Getting the labs to produce reports in a more timely manner is important to everyone in the diamond business. Making reports with greater efficiency is very important to the bottom line for labs. Reliance on the accuracy is highly important for consumers and everyone else investing in diamonds.

This up to date technology to grade diamond color to equate to GIA standard grading is a long way from the older colorimeters used in the simple devices that were promoted to the trade in the past few years. Those older devices really do not serve a function beyond impressing consumers with a machine.

The task now is to market successfully, get the technology and machinery out, license the intellectual property to those who use it in their own devices. This is never easy and is made more difficult by the tradition bound, secretive, and delicate market that diamonds and labs exist within. Rocking the boat is not fun when you are in deep waters and have no life preserver. A smooth transition to machine color grading would be most sensible.

 

[distracts]

Re: Been Wondering When This Would Happen - Lawsuit Over Gra

Oldminer - super interesting information!

 

[AstonMartin]

Re: Been Wondering When This Would Happen - Lawsuit Over Gra

Being a lawyer myself, this is interesting.

If nothing else law is supposed to adapt over time and provide some sort of precedent base for other cases in the future. If no one starts then nothing changes.

Take for example our current case with respect to euthanasia/right to die being heard at the top court in Canada. It could be an incredible change (or not - depending on how it swings).

Back to rocks:

The issue I have here isn't the stone he bought - seems like he may have paid a somewhat fair price for what he got - ie: if his stone had been graded by GIA as the EGL cert said, he would have paid a lot more. He didn't pay that huge price. What he's upset about (i'm thinking) is that he's been told a) the 2 graders are the same or b) the EGL report can be relied upon as a fair indication of what you're buying.

I could review this a million ways but i'm liking the motion thats going forward. If for no other reason than it will protect the lovestruck man (or woman) who goes into a shop not knowing any better and purchasing a ring.

If people never brought litigation or awareness to tanning beds, there would never be awareness that it can cause cancer. Now people have to warn consumers about the risks. So, by analogy, why not have rules in place whereby the consumer is warned or retailers are forced to warn a consumer of the differences and allow the consumer to choose with that knowledge. It takes the power imbalance away.

Granted, I realize we're catering to the lowest common denominator as many people here have indicated. It is a very informative world we live in today and it doesn't take much for us to have a look-see at the internet and research what we're buying. Certainly i'd never purchase something as expensive as a ring without looking up what i'm getting and what standards are out there. But heck, thats me.

I hope someone keeps this updated.