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bad sex is not criminal/ no means no but what about non-verbal clues?

kenny

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Apr 30, 2005
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Interesting article. Thanks for posting. I'm going to think about it and read again as it is a complex question in my mind. I found myself thinking at the start that clearly the action was wrong but as I read more and thought on it a bit, I can see where this could get less clear cut especially in situations where someone is okay with the activity but wants something a bit different than the partner is doing. Not that it is okay to do anything someone is uncomfortable with, but how do we make sure everyone feels comfortable communicating and how do we handle situations like those described?
 
This is a great article!

The following comment resonated the most for me:

"in a 1999 paper by Celia Kitzinger and Hannah Frith, the authors conclude that that “both men and women have a sophisticated ability to convey and to comprehend refusals, including refusals which do not include the word ‘no’,” positing that when men claim to not understand these types of refusals, they may actually be employing “self-interested justifications for coercive behavior.”

This jives with some of my own personal experiences.

As I'm getting older, I'm getting better about understanding what's really happening and better at managing my own boundaries. Not always easy though.

Anne
 
Here's the abstract for the Kitzinger and Frith paper and I've attached a pdf of the entire paper. I've just given it a quick look see for now and will read the entire thing when I find some time. I was disappointed that their paper is a review and analysis of research published by others and not an original study but that does not in any way mean I don't think their work lacks merit. I just assumed, based on the abstract, that they done an original study. The focus of the paper is the effectiveness or not of conversation analysis and they posit that "just say no" is by itself ineffective and sometimes harmful.

As to the snipped that resonates with anne_h, I think it's safe to say that throughout our lives we have met and will meet people who are adept at picking up on subtle non verbal cues and those who are thick as mud and won't get it even if you draw them a picture. As far as the situation with Aziz Ansari goes, I suspect his is a good example of “self-interested justifications for coercive behavior.”

I'm relieved that we are having these conversations on the local and national level.

Abstract
This article aims to show the value of conversation analysis for feminist theory and practice around refusal skills training and date rape prevention. Conversation analysis shows that refusals are complex conversational interactions, incorporating delays, prefaces, palliatives, and accounts. Refusal skills training often ignores and overrides these with its simplistic prescription to `just say no'. It should not in fact be necessary for a woman to say `no' in order for her to be understood as refusing sex. We draw on our own data to suggest that young women are able explicitly to articulate a sophisticated awareness of these culturally normative ways of indicating refusal, and we suggest that insistence upon `just say no' may be counterproductive insofar as it implies that other ways of doing refusals (e.g. with silences, compliments, or even weak acceptances) are open to reasonable doubt. Finally we discuss the implications of our use of conversation analysis for feminist psychology, both in relation to date rape and more generally.
 

Attachments

Her First mistake was going back to one of their apartments....esp not really knowing the other. Reminds me of a line from a Hooking up scene in the Travolta sequel to “ Saturday Night Fever” when the GAL says.....
” relationship? You are exercise!” Either sex could use this line.

Women behaving badly IMHO. Then pretending otherwise. So sick of hearing about trashy behavior.

Fm
 
@FinleysMom Respectfully I do not agree with you.

FinleysMom said:
Women behaving badly IMHO. Then pretending otherwise. So sick of hearing about trashy behavior.
Click to expand...

Am I perhaps misunderstanding what you wrote? This young woman didn't do anything wrong. So if we go back to a man's apartment we deserve what we get? How about if I wear a short dress and show cleavage. Does that mean I am asking for it?

I agree with what anne_h shared.
anne_h said:
positing that when men claim to not understand these types of refusals, they may actually be employing “self-interested justifications for coercive behavior.”
Click to expand...

Non verbal cues can be just as powerful as verbal ones and IMO these men were serving their self interest and didn't really care about what either of these women wanted.

I too am glad as a society we are having this discussion out in the open and I hope real positive change comes from this.
A very sad commentary on how women are treated and valued in this world (all over) and it is about time we do something about it.
 
I'm going to entirely ignore the post by @FinleysMom - what a f-ing disgusting notion that was.

Anyways. The biggest thing IMO that needs to be discussed is: enthusiastic consent. It needs to be taught to everyone. It needs to be asked for. It needs to be given. Without it, there should be no sexual activity at all.

Another thing that, while not directly related, came to me while reading the stories of Grace and similar - women need to be taught not be so polite. We are taught to say no, but also taught not to offend people or hurt their feelings. This creates a muddled gray area in the middle.

I also really enjoyed this article (along the same lines) http://www.everywhereist.com/i-made...rio-batalis-sexual-misconduct-apology-letter/
 
Missy...she admitted to not having time to process what was going on....seriously? Must have been pretty trashed. And to expect a guy to stop to read nonverbal cues? Laughable!



FM
 
I think sexual boundaries is SUCH an important topic. It is more than just consent (though that is also a gray area for so many people). It is about where you feel comfortable being touch, when, and how...It is about talking about protection and family planning. In some situations, talking about negative past experiences. Most people are uncomfortable having those conversation so they bury their discomfort. I think these conversations should start in middle/high school but for many reasons they don't.
 
FinleysMom said:
Missy...she admitted to not having time to process what was going on....seriously? Must have been pretty trashed. And to expect a guy to stop to read nonverbal cues? Laughable!



FM
Click to expand...

I’m sorry you’ve been conditioned to believe that men cannot help themselves and that women are always at fault. And that women who do anything outside what you and your ilk deem “the rules” of being “ladylike” are “trashy.” I suggest you catch up to the year we are in now, which is 2018, not 1948.
 
just because a woman is in the same bar/party/room as a man doesn't implicitly invite him into her body. Going to a bar/party/room doesn't make a woman trashy.

god forbid I have too much to drink that I need some time to process. That doesn't imply that I am trashy or that I have given consent. Absence of nonconsent is not proof that consent was given. If perhaps, after those too many drinks, what if I were to pass out? Then is that a signal that any (or every) guy has permission to hop in? "She never said no/stop..." Ridiculous!

As far as clothing, if wearing a low cut shirt or high heels or a mini skirt is a green light for anyone to automatically have sex with the woman, why then if she dressed like a man, shouldn't she automatically (and immediately) be given a higher salary? After all, she was totally "asking for it being dressed that way", right?
 
FinleysMom said:
she admitted to not having time to process what was going on....seriously? Must have been pretty trashed
Click to expand...
You misunderstand that portion of the article. She didn't have time to process because of how quickly the situation escalated not because she was "pretty trashed."
 
anne_h said:
Somebody sent me this one (the Samantha Bee clip in the link below). My favorite take on this topic yet.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/18/arts/television/samantha-bee-aziz-ansari.html

Anne
Click to expand...

I tried but had to turn her off after a minute.
I can't stand the roaring studio audience for Bee, or for John Stewart (now Trevor Noah) and John Oliver, etc.
It's a sporting event / RAH RAH RAH FOR MY SIDE! / lynch mob atmosphere :nono: that really rubs me the wrong way for what are very serious topics.
I'm on their side, but actually I oppose the whole idea of 'sides'.
Just discuss the topic, thank you very much.

I'd be happy to read transcripts from these four though.
I like much of what they have to say.
 
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