Bad reasons for doing custom e-rings.

[Golden Oak]

I just had a pricescope user come in to our store who purchased diamond from WhiteFlash. He wanted to know "if we could we make a Ritani design ring for cheaper".

First I want to point out that this is an unethical request. The ring design is the intellectual property of the designer and copying someone’s design is the same as stealing. This is something a good jeweler with ethics will not do. There are many design concepts that are public domain, but to take a picture off a designers website and request that you copy it exactly is not an ethical request. The work of the designer and their jewelers is valuable, it is what makes them who they are, how would you feel if someone copied the work that you made that put the food on your table and the shelter over your head.

I see no problem looking at designs to influence a custom piece but you should not consider your local custom jeweler the napster of jewelry design.

Second, quality custom work by a master goldsmith is not typically going to be "cheaper" than buying a ring that is mass-produced in a factory offshore in a low labor rate country. If you want your ring made by an old world crafts person it is going to be more expensive than a mass produced piece. That is why most finished goods are produced on an assembly line not hand built by one person.

So why go custom?

You want a piece of art, something unique and one of a kind, and you want the highest level of craftsmanship. I look at it this way; this is your engagement ring, if the idea of having the ring that thousands of other women are warring then mass-produced line engagement ring is the way to go. There are many levels here and levels of quality to choose from, some are very limited, high quality designer line pieces and others are extremely mass-produced lightweight pieces. But all of them are produced in a factory, in a way that allows them to be made the same way with the ability to create multiple copies. Every day I see lightweight produced line jewelry that have problems, some which are just so poorly produced that they are not repairable. With an engagement ring you want a piece that is designed with the long term in mind. Over a lifetime a ring will need to be repaired, rings take the most abuse and they do not heal like your fingers and hand do. You want a ring that is constructed in such a way it can take abuse and when needed it can be repaired.

Custom work allows you to create something that is uniquely yours, something special that no one else will have. You can create designs that mean something to you, that capture special meaning to you.

Think of it this way, buying a setting that is produced by a designer in a factory is like buying a pre made card from Hallmark. When you create a custom piece of jewelry you are writing her a personal love letter that will last a lifetime and beyond.

I could go on with lots more reasons, I think this makes my point.

Just some food for thought.

Best Regards,

Brian
Golden Oak Jewelers
Berkeley, CA 94710

 

[MINE!!]

Hello,

I realize that I am no expert here.... however, I think that many people LOVE the look of Ritani and want something similiar. However, it is my understanding that Ritani is not sold without the diamond. Many Pscopers (from what I have seen) are more informed about diamonds than some of the people that sell Ritani settings with the diamonds. I was orginally looking at Ritani and was thinking about pruchasing the ring from Baily''s. Yet, that was before I came to Pscope and realized that they were in essence ''overcharging'' a bit for the quality of diamond. I was dismayed to learn that would not just sell their setting. Therefore, I looked elsewhere. I understand the want of having something that looked like Ritani. I think that if someone wants a Ritani like setiing, then it is not unreasonable to get someone to make a similair setting for THEIR diamond.

But that is just my opinion.

 

[Golden Oak]

Date: 6/17/2005 5:38:25 PM
Author: MINE!!
Hello,

I realize that I am no expert here.... however, I think that many people LOVE the look of Ritani and want something similiar. However, it is my understanding that Ritani is not sold without the diamond. Many Pscopers (from what I have seen) are more informed about diamonds than some of the people that sell Ritani settings with the diamonds. I was orginally looking at Ritani and was thinking about pruchasing the ring from Baily's. Yet, that was before I came to Pscope and realized that they were in essence 'overcharging' a bit for the quality of diamond. I was dismayed to learn that would not just sell their setting. Therefore, I looked elsewhere. I understand the want of having something that looked like Ritani. I think that if someone wants a Ritani like setiing, then it is not unreasonable to get someone to make a similair setting for THEIR diamond.

But that is just my opinion.

I have no idea what Ritani's policies are or BBB's when it comes to the rings they sell but, asking to duplicate another’s work is stealing their IP, no mater how you try to justify it. If it is their policy that you can only buy it with their diamonds that is their right but duplicating their work because of that is not ethical.

If you like some of the design elements of a piece you should share what you like with the designer and jeweler, there is nothing wrong with that, but don't ask them to copy a design directly from a vendors catalog.

Regards,

Brian

 

[IrishEyes]

Golden Oak, I understand what you are saying. So let''s say for example, that a couple sees a Ritani ring they want, but don''t want the diamond it''s set with. Do you think one route to go would be to buy the ring as a whole, take the diamond out of the setting then sell that and replace it with the one of their choice? Or would that not make sense seeing as how they won''t get near as much back for the stone they are selling as they paid for it? I guess I wonder what the ethical route would be for a person who really likes a particular Ritani ring, but really doesn''t want the stone that is mounted with it.

But I understand what you are saying about directly duplicating an exact design, it is stealing...

 

[Golden Oak]

Date: 6/17/2005 6:15:19 PM
Author: IrishEyes
Golden Oak, I understand what you are saying. So let''s say for example, that a couple sees a Ritani ring they want, but don''t want the diamond it''s set with. Do you think one route to go would be to buy the ring as a whole, take the diamond out of the setting then sell that and replace it with the one of their choice? Or would that not make sense seeing as how they won''t get near as much back for the stone they are selling as they paid for it? I guess I wonder what the ethical route would be for a person who really likes a particular Ritani ring, but really doesn''t want the stone that is mounted with it.

But I understand what you are saying about directly duplicating an exact design, it is stealing...

First, I have no idea what Ritani''s policies are, but for the sake of argument lets say what has been stated here is the case, that they require you purchase the ring with their diamond. Then, if the customer wants a Ritani ring they should purchase the Ritani and do what ever they want with it. If there are some design elements of a ring you like you can talk with your jeweler about those design elements and start from there in creating your own ring. For example, "I would like a pave band with a basket setting", now you have a starting place.

On the idea that "they won''t get near as much back for the stone they are selling as they paid for it", well I would suggest that you change your point of reference about what jewelry is. When you buy a finished piece of jewelry you are purchasing a piece of art, if it is good, bad or mass produced art I don''t know but it is art made with very expensive materials. If you scrape the paint off a Picasso you wont get much for that paint, that is the nature of the beast. You are purchasing art, guess what if you melt down that ring the metal is worth allot less too. This is jewelry and jewelry is art, otherwise people would be wearing ingots with diamonds and gems hot glue gunned to them.

Regards,

Brian

 

[FireGoddess]

Golden Oak,

While I agreed with most of your first post, I think that Mine and Irish Eyes are also correct and you are off base with your last remark. Almost 85-90% of the cost of an engagement ring is the price of the center stone, and just because you like the design and look of the FRAME for that "art", you should not have to overpay or be left with a lower quality piece of "art" just because they won't sell you the FRAME separately.

 

[Kaleigh]

Well said FireGodess!!!!

 

[Mara]

for us custom was the only answer as everything we had seen that was designer was too expensive for what it entailed...and we also liked pieces of one thing and another etc. i don''t know that i would want to do an exact replica of anything, mostly because the fun of it is to add things that are representative of you...aka you can take the ritani endless love idea of a pave halo (not an idea unique to ritani!) and add small touches that make the ring your own, aka a different slope to the shoulders, bigger or smaller melee, etc.

golden oak is it possible that someone came in with the idea that they wanted to start off discussions with the ritani as the idea they loved the most, but that they would have been open to other changes and/or mods? just curious.

oh and as for costs..we had a platinum setting made with almost double the ctw of the michael b i had originally liked, it was definitely a very different ring but a similar idea with eternity, and we paid $500 less than the michael b. more platinum, more metal, more durable, more us and it was cheaper. for us it was a win win all around.

 

[Golden Oak]

Date: 6/17/2005 7:17:33 PM
Author: Mara
for us custom was the only answer as everything we had seen that was designer was too expensive for what it entailed...and we also liked pieces of one thing and another etc. i don''t know that i would want to do an exact replica of anything, mostly because the fun of it is to add things that are representative of you...aka you can take the ritani endless love idea of a pave halo (not an idea unique to ritani!) and add small touches that make the ring your own, aka a different slope to the shoulders, bigger or smaller melee, etc.

Exactly!

golden oak is it possible that someone came in with the idea that they wanted to start off discussions with the ritani as the idea they loved the most, but that they would have been open to other changes and/or mods? just curious.

Nope, this is what we do for a living, this is not that unusual of a situation, we try to convert these kind of encounters into custom rings. He was looking for that ring or somthing very close to it for a lower price.

oh and as for costs..we had a platinum setting made with almost double the ctw of the michael b i had originally liked, it was definitely a very different ring but a similar idea with eternity, and we paid $500 less than the michael b. more platinum, more metal, more durable, more us and it was cheaper. for us it was a win win all around.

That can be the case, but not all the time. A lot has to do with the design and the labor assoicated to the work.

 

[Kaleigh]

Tiffany is selling a mini version of the Ritani three stone ring. What''s up with that, is that ok???

 

[Golden Oak]

Date: 6/17/2005 7:13:39 PM
Author: FireGoddess
Golden Oak,

While I agreed with most of your first post, I think that Mine and Irish Eyes are also correct and you are off base with your last remark. Almost 85-90% of the cost of an engagement ring is the price of the center stone, and just because you like the design and look of the FRAME for that ''art'', you should not have to overpay or be left with a lower quality piece of ''art'' just because they won''t sell you the FRAME separately.

Again assuming that the center stone is required with the piece from the designer, I understand what you are saying, but that designer made the choice on what went into their ring and they chose all the components that they wanted in it. That was their artistic right and choice, if you don''t like it, dont buy the ring, or suck it up and live with the idea that you are going to replace the center and it would be as valuable as you perceive it is. The designer who is selling it obviously sees more value in their product and materials than you do, but that is ok you can go elsewhere and not buy their ring. Yes it is gems are a very expensive art material and the gems are pieces of art too. If you want to change it, once you own it, you can what ever you want.

I have quite a few rings in stock that have center stones I will not replace and I have others that I will (both diamond and in color), It depends on the piece, who the designer is and other business related issues. But if you buy one of the pieces that have a center stone that I wont replace, and then you want me to replace it with something else, I would be more than happy to help you out.

Regards,

Brian

 

[IrishEyes]

golden oak - I agree with you, jewelry is art, however as Fire Goddess said, the bulk of the cost of an e-ring IS the center-stone. You shouldn''t have to overpay for the whole piece of "art" if you are not happy about its main feature. I was agreeing with you and simply asking a question out of curiousity. Please don''t ask me to change my frame of reference - I am a gemology student, believe me, I appreciate the beauty of jewelry and gemstones. Thank you, however, for your opinion.

 

[strmrdr]

Another issue is whose design is it?
I see simular settings from all the big names?
Go back in time before those firms existed and you would still see simular designs.

Also before the "name" settting companies start complaining about others they better clean there own house first.
Lets start on the issue of illegal price fixing that everyone turns a blind eye too.
Consumers should start filing class action lawsuits and get some fire rolling and see how much they like it.

 

[Golden Oak]

Date: 6/17/2005 7:34:38 PM
Author: IrishEyes
golden oak - I agree with you, jewelry is art, however as Fire Goddess said, the bulk of the cost of an e-ring IS the center-stone. You shouldn''t have to overpay for the whole piece of ''art'' if you are not happy about its main feature. I was agreeing with you and simply asking a question out of curiousity. Please don''t ask me to change my frame of reference - I am a gemology student, believe me, I appreciate the beauty of jewelry and gemstones. Thank you, however, for your opinion.

Regardless of your gemology student credentials, again, that is your perceived value of that center stone should be worth, the designer prices the piece on what they feel it is worth. How do you know how much they valued the center stone at, perhaps they value it at the same level you do and they value the workmanship of their rings much higher than you do. There are many times in life where the seller of a item and I don’t agree, but hey that is how life works. the point of this academic argument is, if the seller requires you to purchase their center stone to buy their design, is it ok to copy the ring, and the answer no, it is not ok to copy the design of someone else. Life is hard so suck it up, there are always choices out there that you are not going to like.

Regards,

Brian

 

[Golden Oak]

Date: 6/17/2005 7:38:32 PM
Author: strmrdr
Another issue is whose design is it?
I see simular settings from all the big names?
Go back in time before those firms existed and you would still see simular designs.

Also before the ''name'' settting companies start complaining about others they better clean there own house first.
Lets start on the issue of illegal price fixing that everyone turns a blind eye too.
Consumers should start filing class action lawsuits and get some fire rolling and see how much they like it.

As I originally stated there are lots of designs in the public domain, we use historic reference books all the time to influence our designs, but bringing in a picture from a designers collection or requesting that you go to a designers web site and copy their design exactly because you hope it will be cheaper is unethical and it would be unethical to do so.
Regards,


Brian

 

[IrishEyes]

yes I know life is hard, thanks for saying that twice. I wasn''t arguing with your initial argument about not copying the rings, I think it is wrong as well. Are you in the military? They say "suck it up" all the time as well.

thank you for your input, I have no further comments.

 

[perry]

I think Golden Oak has a valid point that applies to many rings. Asking for essentially an exact duplicate is stealing the design.

I have spent a lot of time looking at rings on the net trying to find designs that I really liked. Well I found one on a "custom" page of an internet jeweler. So I asked that jeweler what it would cost to duplicate in different metals and with the specific sized stones and finger size. The price is not cheap by any standards. But I have no complaints and will gladly have it made it if my lady says "yes."

To me that is what you should do if you want essentially a copy.

Now if you want something similar - then the world is your oyster... and I suspect that Golden Oak would be more than happy to do business with you.

Perry

 

[RockDoc]

Just a small Clarification

I do not believe that Ritani sells direct.

Recently, one of my customers who had their center stone checked out, ordered a Ritani ring from a Ritani jeweler.

The policy of selling the center stone as a requirement to get this designer ring, is I believe in most cases the policy of the store that is a dealer of Ritani ( and some other "designer" makers).

In this particular case, he paid a lot of money for the ring, but he did NOT have to buy the center stone from the jeweler who sold it to him. He was "pressured" to do that, but this jeweler decided a half a loaf was better than none.

Rockdoc

 

[FireGoddess]

Date: 6/17/2005 7:34:28 PM
Author: Golden Oak

Again assuming that the center stone is required with the piece from the designer, I understand what you are saying, but that designer made the choice on what went into their ring and they chose all the components that they wanted in it. That was their artistic right and choice, if you don''t like it, dont buy the ring, or suck it up and live with the idea that you are going to replace the center and it would be as valuable as you perceive it is. The designer who is selling it obviously sees more value in their product and materials than you do, but that is ok you can go elsewhere and not buy their ring.

And that''s why I went custom.

 

[PhillipSchmidt]

If I see something I like and I want to make it I can. People pay us jewellers to be creative and what creative edge can you have if you can''t see somebody elses jewel and make it by your own hands.

 

[MINE!!]

I think the one thing to consider is that when most people come in and ask for someone to make a design that is like someone elses, that person is NOT thinking along those lines. This man''s FI probably liked the ritani style. He knew that she wanted such and wanted to go see if someone could make it. Perhaps he meant a similia style or something like it. He only knew that she liked it and that was his focus.. ''demonizing'' someone that wants something, yet doens''t know exactly the ''faux pas'' of asking for a Ritani like design, I beleive is unfair. If I had known that I could make a design similiar to Ritani then I would have had it done.

I have seem MANY different other rings that look very similiar to Ritani on this site and I think it is inspiring. I agree that matching something exactly is not right... but changing something little, is not.. just ask the people who are making all those SUVs.

But once again... my opinon.

 

[PhillipSchmidt]

I agree with Dave,

but I think there are exceptions.

If somebody wants a cheap copy then that is what they get. Agreed
There is no copyright in jewellery design, even if is has been attested. It is like owning the trademark for a colour. No jewellery patent can ever stick, because nothing is new. The Ritani rings metioned here are clearly copies at any rate. They are not new.

Making things to exact dimensions is how jewellers learn; making things to match finished items is the same thing to me. It is up to the customer as to what style they want and sometimes good examples of styles are concentrated in the same place. Tiffany is the prime example.
Good ideas come and go and some people are known for having a lot of them. What I hate is when somebody catches onto something I am doing and does it better (esp. if they market it first). That can bring you back down to earth with a thud.

If somebody wants their jewel made by somebody they know and are expecting them to do their best, then they should do the best they can and hopefully produce something better then the original.
Business 101 - the customer is always right

 

[PhillipSchmidt]

I can undarstand that MINE!!
I am never told, 'make exactly that ring', but 'I really like that ring'.

A lot of the jewellery of mine that has been posted on pricescope was first seen on Pricescope and various web sites or magazines etc. I think that the 'show me the ring' section says it all as far are consumers are concerned. The fine examples and candid commentary has been inpiring for people I make jewellery for, who also post here.

 

[Nicrez]

It''s called Ethics. Either you choose to follow it or not. No one is demonizing, but I agree with Golden Oaks, stealing in any form is stealing.

I know if I came up with something and then I saw someone copy that and steal my profits I would be very upset. I think most people here would. It takes hard work (and lots of expenses) to become a designer, to get a business running, and then start to manufacture your pieces. Then someone comes along and copies your work, and it''s no longer unique or set to your exacting standard, but is often mistaked for your work. Even your own image goes down, all because someone LIKED your work, but didn''t want to pay for it.

Sorry, but I really have a problem with knockoff anything.

"If someone likes a designer ring like Ritani, then buy it. If you don''t like the price tag, don''t buy it." - Cranky Dave

Imagine you go for a sales job you pitch an idea to a client. It was your own idea that took you weeks to think up and even longer to get the finer details worked out. You are proud of it and happy to show it. Then that client goes directly to a competitor and says make this EXACTLY like this guy did, and you get the job if you can do it cheaper. Ethics. In business, in jewelry, and as fine a line as there is, it''s still there.

it''s up to each individual HOW they will live their lives and what they choose to do, just like a vendor can or won''t copy an item. As a matter of fact Signed Pieces refused to make any setting for my radiant that was SIMILAR to a T&Co Lucida, as they have a working relationship with them and they feel it is unethical.

 

[Jennifer5973]

I must be an unethical person because while I have yet to do so, I''d have absolutely no problem bringing a picture of a desinger piece to my jeweler and saying "make me this."

I guess in this situation, I''d rather be "unethical" than stupid and overpay for a designer name.

Question: I did buy a "Tiffany" bubble pendant from my jeweler...does this count as unethical too (buying ready-made designer inspired pieces)?

 

[AZDiamondGuy]

It''s illegal to "knock off" the ring and make an EXACT copy.

It''s perfectly fine to "interpret" the ring.

 

[pearcrazy]

"I just had a pricescope user come in to our store who purchased diamond from WhiteFlash. He wanted to know "if we could we make a Ritani design ring for cheaper".

Did the customer want you to copy it exactly right down to the markings inside or were they looking for a ring in that Endless love halo "style"? I think it's just how the customer worded things. Ritani isn't the only company on the market that has halo styled ring settings. Perhaps they wouldn't have irked you if they had just worded it properly. Just as I see lots of six prong settings called "Tiffany" styled that aren't made by Tiffany's. My DH asked me to buy him a box of "Kleenex" for his office. He should have said "tissues". I bought a box of Puffs since they were on sale.

I'll assume since you are in such a huff that you sent them packing and they promptly walked into another store and gave them their business. I know I would have. I'm not trying to be flip (OK well maybe I am) but quite frankly we've all been throughly chastised in the past around here for making such jewelry requests. I think there's a BIG difference is bringing a picture of a one of a kind piece into a store for duplication and bringing a picture that appears in almost EVERY bridal magazine and and asking for a quote to make something like it.

 

[Tenwood]

Quite simple really, The US Patent and Trademark office and other policing bodies should just go after jewelers. 1. Check their inventory against current trademarked rings and confiscate them all and 2. Actively prosecute jewelers who make copies of trademarked rings. And it will all be over.

Somehow, I don''t think any of the above suggestions will take place. In the end, people will continue to ask jewelers to make their ring look like a Tiffany ring...and guess what, jewelers all over the world will continue to do it.

I have just wasted 10 minutes reading the other posts and another 1 minute typing this...I WANT MY TIME BACK.

 

[laughinggravy]

Hi Brian - I live in Belgium and Ritani never even contacted me after I asked if they had vendors in Europe, it was the kindness of another Pricescoper that enabled me to find out that they don''t sell in Europe at all and wouldn''t set my stone even if I sent it to them.

What does one do then? That particular look, very fine pave bezel settings, isn''t available in all the shops I''ve trawled in Brussels, Antwerp or even Paris. Yes the artist''s work is obviously important but if they refuse to supply you or even respond to you then I say you have every right to put money into the hands of local jewellers and designers, and incorporate the design you like into something that''s made by a local craftsman/woman.

Plus this idea of designers insisting on supplying the stone and then exploiting a buyer''s desire for a ring setting by charging the the earth and stars for a low grade diamond. Where does that fit into the overall scheme of things?

Regards,
Abi

 

[TheDiamondangel]

I completely agree with Golden. Honestly, if you are looking to save a few bucks, go with a different diamond, or a simple but elegant setting. Yes, some designers such as Tacori, Michael B., Ritani, and even some of the Vatche pieces are expensive, but the workmanship is exquisite. I would rather go with a plain temporary (even if the temporary turns out to be 10 years) setting than to have a copy made. There is just something that really bothers me about showing off a ring to someone and having to say "Its a copy of a ____ piece.", and there is a good reason why these designers'' pieces are so coveted. The are well made, not skimped on, and some of them are just perfection realized.

Some things are just worth waiting for, no matter how long it takes.