B-Scope Results Help.

anothernewbie · Feb 13, 2004

I''m looking for opinions on these B-Scope results. I''m not sure which result is the most important (I''m assuming White Light). What does everyone think?

pqcollectibles · Feb 13, 2004

Looks like a good performer!

Which one is better is a personal preference thing. Do you like a diamond with a lot of Brilliance, lots of white light return. Or do you prefer a diamond with lots of Fire, lots of flashes of color. This diamond will have plenty of both, but lean more toward flashes of color.

pulp_princess · Feb 13, 2004

I think pqcollectibles is right that it's a personal preference as to which is most important. I think coloured light adds more drama and life. My BF thinks scintillation is most important to him. It's a pretty, well-balanced stone if you're considering it.

anothernewbie · Feb 14, 2004

Anyone else??

Rhino · Feb 15, 2004

Ok… here’s what this B’scope analysis is telling me with regards to gemological info (and I realize I may be critiquing a stone we’ve personally examined) but here are various features that I note in this stone.

Firstly, this should be an overall nicely performing diamond in direct light conditions.Light view 6 indicates the chances of a good H&A stone (which should/would be confirmed by photographic evidence via H&A pics and the strong bursts of fire off the arrows show evidence of a good performer, better than most common diamonds on the market (which don’t get anything in the “very high” zone).

The lack of flash in light view 1 more than likely means you have a lower girdle/star length that is what I may considered “not tweaked”.Depending on the angles to which the crown/pavilion were cut and lower girdle/stars, a “tweaked” lower girdle star combo would produce a graphic like this.

Diamond in question

Example 1

Example 2

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Note the strong bursts of light happening between the arrow shafts and the arrow heads in the 2 examples.This is due to cutting the lower girdles and stars to certain lengths/angles which increase dispersed colored light return within a diamond in direct light observance.It would have been nice to see this in the stone you posted.

Light views 2 & 3 show various arrow heads lit up in each of the views.While this is of course a good thing the fact that different ones are lit up in each view tell me a little about the variances to which this diamond was cut. When all of those facets are not lit up at the same time under the calibrated light source of the B’scope this tells me that the variances may be a little on the wild side.

Diamond in question.

Diamond in question

Example stone.

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In the “example stone” (3rd graphic) all of the arrow heads are lit up at the same time indicating perhaps tighter variances.(Another thing on the example stone to note is that while all arrow heads are lit up at once, the arrow heads in the 12:00, 3:00 & 9:00 positions are lighting up at a greater intensity which can be cause of one of 2 reasons 1. the crown/pavilion angles combo at those points are slightly different than the rest OR 2. the rotational alignment (or twist) between the crown/pavilion angles at those locations are more perfectly aligned than the rest. This is a subject I am currently researching).

So in short it looks like this is a stone that is better than what you’d typically find on the market and comparable to most H&A’s and even branded H&A’s but not the rarest H&A’s as observed in direct light conditions and consideration to variances/precision.

Peace,

Rhino · Feb 15, 2004

ugh... I see my tables didn't "paste" properly when inserting it in my response here. If you don't understand I can elaborate.

valeria101 · Feb 15, 2004

Here's a quick one Jonathan...

If you do get that one-time flash from a large area of the stone, I suspect this effect hold up only within a narrow "cone" of light ray from the source In consequence, the diamond looks like a mirror held against a light: either all bright or all dim, depending on wether you get most light to fall onto it from the right angle. So, less "tight" (as you say above) stones may never have that one-time blinding flash, but could "keep talking" for a wider aray of light incidence angles.

I was wandering about this question for a bit, and strongly suspect I am wrong. The Q seemed to fi onto this thread and it might be time for me to get it right, I guess.

Rhino · Feb 15, 2004

Hi Valeria,

Actually different angles in which the light source is hitting the diamond illuminate different parts and facets of the diamond. The 5 light views (insofar as I can see) are more than sufficient to cover the entire crown thus making for a complete analysis (light spreads as it's pulled further away and covers more ground thus giving the diamond it's chance to *light up* if cut well). We also have in our store the analogue B'scope which lets us see with our eyes, very critically, not just the 5 views but every view imaginable. The analogue and the digital always correlate with each other. One of my favorite things to do is let people compare, side by side diamonds under the analogue version and let them pick what they think is the top performer. Sometimes it can be tough to differentiate but many people can once they view them a couple of times. Of course the ultimate test is being able to view the same two stones side by side in a "Pepsi" challenge and pick the top performer. Admittedly there are certain H&A's in which it is hard to seperate with the eyes the differences. It really depends upon each stone and the parameters they've been cut to.

Peace,

Rhino · Feb 15, 2004

btw, let me also add that we will purchase diamonds for inventory that are of the high/very high/high B'scope results as long as the other features about the stone is outstanding. Ie. Nice crisp H&A optical symmetry, brilliance strong enough as indicated on Isee2, eye clean clarity, good color etc. When colored light return jumps "very high" on the BrillianceScope this is an excellent indicator that the diamond will perform very well in direct light conditions. Common diamonds do not score anything in the VH range.

Peace,

anothernewbie · Feb 15, 2004

Rhino et al. - Thanks for the opinions. There is no better place to come for info.

The stone in the BScope pictures is a G VS2. I have to make a decision in the next day or so. Add this Firescope pic to the mix and keep those opinions coming. Thanks.

caratgirl · Feb 15, 2004

Wow, Rhino, very excellent explanation! I always felt like I didn't have a good enough grasp of what the light views were about, and now I feel on slightly firmer ground. Thanks very much for the in depth analysis.

Mara · Feb 15, 2004

Yes excellent explanation Rhino. I am going to save this (and maybe Leonid wants to move this into the FAQ section?).

Anyway 'anothernewbie'..that IdealScope/FScope image is kind of leaky looking IMO. The points in between the arrows are showing pure white which will be leakage, there is the typical leakage along the outside girdle, and the table is a bit pale with some white spots through there as well. Though really IMO if those points between the arrows were not SO leaky...even more pale pink than pure white..it would be better. Also, the stone appears off symmetry in terms of culet but that could just be misalignment when photographing.

Not sure what your options are or what you are paying for this stone. The images are nice and it does score well on Bscope, as Rhino said it's probably better than much of what you'd find 'out there', but if you can find something that is tighter on the images and Bscope for the *same money*, I would check all options first.

Good luck!

aljdewey · Feb 17, 2004

----------------
On 2/15/2004 4:26:05 PM Rhino wrote:

Ok… here’s what this B’scope analysis is telling me with regards to gemological info (and I realize I may be critiquing a stone we’ve personally examined) but here are various features that I note in this stone.

Firstly, this should be an overall nicely performing diamond in direct light conditions.Light view 6 indicates the chances of a good H&A stone (which should/would be confirmed by photographic evidence via H&A pics and the strong bursts of fire off the arrows show evidence of a good performer, better than most common diamonds on the market (which don’t get anything in the “very high” zone).

The lack of flash in light view 1 more than likely means you have a lower girdle/star length that is what I may considered “not tweaked”.Depending on the angles to which the crown/pavilion were cut and lower girdle/stars, a “tweaked” lower girdle star combo would produce a graphic like this.

Note the strong bursts of light happening between the arrow shafts and the arrow heads in the 2 examples.This is due to cutting the lower girdles and stars to certain lengths/angles which increase dispersed colored light return within a diamond in direct light observance.It would have been nice to see this in the stone you posted.

Light views 2 & 3 show various arrow heads lit up in each of the views.While this is of course a good thing the fact that different ones are lit up in each view tell me a little about the variances to which this diamond was cut. When all of those facets are not lit up at the same time under the calibrated light source of the B’scope this tells me that the variances may be a little on the wild side.

In the “example stone” (3rd graphic) all of the arrow heads are lit up at the same time indicating perhaps tighter variances.(Another thing on the example stone to note is that while all arrow heads are lit up at once, the arrow heads in the 12:00, 3:00 & 9:00 positions are lighting up at a greater intensity which can be cause of one of 2 reasons 1. the crown/pavilion angles combo at those points are slightly different than the rest OR 2. the rotational alignment (or twist) between the crown/pavilion angles at those locations are more perfectly aligned than the rest. This is a subject I am currently researching).

So in short it looks like this is a stone that is better than what you’d typically find on the market and comparable to most H&A’s and even branded H&A’s but not the rarest H&A’s as observed in direct light conditions and consideration to variances/precision.

----------------

Jonathan, you know I think your knowledge is impressive, but sometimes you miss the point. I didn't get the sense the poster was looking for a dissertation about how star/kite/girdle facets affect light, etc.

He's not asking how this stone will perform vs. other stones on the market or whether this is a "good" stone. All he wants to know is this: "I'm not sure which result is the most important (I'm assuming White Light)."

Isn't there a non-technical, English answer to this question? He's asking (to my understanding).....which is more important....white light, colored light, or scintillation. Can't this be answered without sounding like a professor and losing the listener?

Another Newbie, I'll reply as best I can. It really depends on what YOU personally find most appealing about a diamond. Some people are drawn to the bold flashes of white light; others like myself prefer the flashes of colored light (like a bunch of little rainbows). One isn't better than the other.....it's like prefering chocolate or vanilla. Both are good, it's a just a matter of personal taste.
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Nicrez · Feb 17, 2004

I have to say that usually most people on PS come to learn something more about diamonds. I myself am voracious about learning, and I no longer am in the market (at least not yet...give me a few months!) Rhino explained the white light and color light as best he could (and I understood him just fine), without passing a judgment on which is "better".

I don't think that was wrong at all, and in the end, if you better understand your diamond, you can determine which is more your preference. Me, I like rbilliance a bit more, but it's always better to know how a stone does that and why, in case you like a by product of something that's "wrong" with your stone, at least you're informed and can make that decision on your own.

If anothernewbie just wanted opions, he would ask the jeweler who showed his the stone. I figure you come to PS to get opions (we all have one!) some advice and a whole lot of guidelines and facts about diamonds...I say GO RHINO!

strmrdr · Feb 17, 2004

I will give my non expert opinion.

They are all equally important.
The best of the best will score equally very high on all 3 as well as very high on the isee2.

Now for the others,
there were tradeoffs in cut made for one reason or another,
Shape of the rough
To keep weight
trouble getting a good polish.
phase of the moon :}
mood of the cutter
fate

Now do those tradeoffs make a difference?
Yep they do if im paying extra for better cut I expect the performance to be there to back up the higher price.

This falls short on 2 out 3 tests under the light conditions measured by the b-scope.
It may perform very very well under other light conditions and maybe the cut favors them more.
I would want a better balanced diamond if I was paying a premium for performance.

Just my 2c.

The firescope pic confirms that I would likely pass on this diamond.

Rhino · Feb 17, 2004

Sorry Aljdewey, but the very first sentence from the poster was "I'm looking for opinions on these B-Scope results."

I didn't mean for you to take offense from my answer. I was doing my best to help him understand exactly what the results and images were showing via the analysis. When I view B'scope results I look at things with a different eye than most, being that I use it everyday and am very familiar with a diamonds performance under direct light conditions and how they correlate to those results. I hope you didn't take anything personally and I honestly thought I was critiqueing a diamond we had personally scanned. The poster was wise to erase certain info on the B'scope results (personal data that might reveal who the seller is), because had I known where it was coming from I may not have critiqued as detailed as I don't want to appear too critical as people sometimes take things personally as if I am critiqueing them instead of the diamond. I don't want people to take things personally when I'm critiqueing a diamond. My critique is not of the seller or any person and my intent is to remain unbiased when giving gemological information which is why I prefer not to know who or where the diamond is coming from. I've stated this before on threads if people are seeking my professional opinion. I prefer not to know the source, just give me the facts.

One error I made was I went into such detail answering the first sentence that I didn't answer his 2nd. "I'm not sure which result is the most important (I'm assuming White Light)". and I do thank you for pointing that out to me Al.

The short answer to your question anothernewbie is ...

Since B'scope testing is done in strong direct light conditions the most important result is the "colored light" return reading.

The reason is because the stronger the light conditions, the more the diamond will function in it's role as a prism. The weaker the light condition the more the emphasis will be placed upon the component of "brilliance" and white light return as opposed to "fire".

A general rule of thumb with B'scope results...

The higher the results = the more areas within the diamond are reflecting back light at greater/stronger intensity (blacks & dark reds via LightScope).
The lower the results = indicates more leakage within the diamond and more areas that are reflecting back light at weaker intensity (less blacks and more pale reds and whites).

That is the direct correlation between both technologies. This correlation is best detected with LightScope since I am able to photograph and demonstrate the contrast between the darker and lighter reds. The firescope and other devices make all the reds appear to be of the same saturation in many of the photo's I've seen taken under it.

I stand by what I said in my prior post. The stone appears to have very good reflective capabilities. Better that most diamonds on the market. It may be *perfect* for your needs. It depends upon your expectations and your wants/needs/desires in your purchase. Nobody can answer that for you except you anothernewbie. My advice to anyone is always to view all the options available and pick what you like best. Not all diamonds are of the same caliber when it comes to the critical analysis but you may not need a stone of the highest caliber. Nobody can answer that for you.

When I look at the stones being offered on the market there are H&A and there are non H&A. Judging from the FireScope image it appears to not be an H&A. So of non-H&A's on the market this appears to be a very good stone. There are many people who go onto our website and if the optical symmetry is not right on, they pass it up because they've already determined they want a precision H&A stone. Some don't care as long as it's overall reflective properties are good. Everybody is different and has different needs/wants. If you're saving a notable amount of money in price from an H&A you may want to consider this stone as there are H&A's that have similar B'scope results. Please don't take my post wrong. I am not blasting this stone by no means. Just stating the facts. Among the world of non-H&A's it appears very nice. Were it an H&A those are results that are still good. Having shared the positives it would be a disservice to not also point out the other aspects, ie. that there are stones that emit light at stronger intensity in direct light conditions and are cut to a tighter level of precision than the diamond in question.

Next ... if interested, a short critique of the firescope image.

Peace,

Mara · Feb 17, 2004

Go for it Rhino...your earlier post answered some points that I had been wondering about for a while, maybe the Fscope critique will do the same.

anothernewbie · Feb 17, 2004

WOW...I didn't mean to stir up so much controversy. Particular thanks to Rhino for the detailed analysis. I would be VERY interested in your (and others) opinions of the FireScope image. This stone is being sold as an H&A (and priced as such) and it seems to be falling a little short IMO. Thoughts???

caratgirl · Feb 17, 2004

Rhino,

No additional knowledge is 'too' much, in my opinion. Every little bit helps, and I would love a firescope analysis as well. Don't stop giving your expert opinions, whatever you do. I find it very interesting to compare my Bscope images with your critique.

pqcollectibles · Feb 17, 2004

An answer like this about the BS woulda helped me a lot when I was shopping last spring. The BS loops flashed, and I had an idea that it represented how the diamond would perform. I couldn't connect the how to the why. Now it all makes sense!!

aljdewey · Feb 17, 2004

I think my comments were misconstrued, so let me clarify.

The expert opinions are great, and I'm not suggesting to stifle them......but it would be nice to have them translated into LAYMAN's terms at the end of the day for those who aren't a hung up on the "techie" aspect of it. That's all.

Wasn't suggesting that Rhino should stifle expert input.....at all.

pqcollectibles · Feb 17, 2004

I didn't take it that way, AL!! I got what you meant!! And we all know you WUB

Rhino!!

Rhino · Feb 17, 2004

Me wub Al, PQ and caratgirl too.

All you guys are great and I am thankful for the friendships I have made here. You guys rock.

Mara · Feb 17, 2004

No love for me.

glitterata · Feb 17, 2004

I wub you, Mara!

Mara · Feb 17, 2004

aww

pqcollectibles · Feb 17, 2004

----------------
On 2/17/2004 5:38:37 PM Mara wrote:

No love for me.

----------------

LOL

I WUB U, Mara!!

pqcollectibles · Feb 17, 2004

I WUB U 2, Pup!!

Rhino · Feb 17, 2004

Oops! I could kick myself in my gemological @$$.

OF COURSE ME WUB MARA!!! From me to you girl a GREAT BIG CYBER HUG!!!

Rhino · Feb 17, 2004

Ok… I had typed out an earlier response this morning on this (only to get timed out and lose my entire post with graphics L) but here’s what I see when I look at this FireScope image.