B&M ? Direct your energies in a positive direction

[fire&ice]

Why do you assume that you are "evil"?

Your industry is changing. Unfortunately, the internet is a *force* to be reckoned with. What I don''t understand is why some B&M''s like to bad mouth and/or scare clients away from purchasing over the internet. Why waste energy bad-mouthing a venue when better time would be spent talking about the true *virtues* of buying from a trusted B&M jeweler? Why not spend time revamping/rethinking/adapting or coming up with creative ways to improve the quality of the B&M "experience"? Why not find some niches? I did a complete turn about regarding Stuart Moore. Now, I wouldn''t mind paying the premium. He set himself apart.

Yep, great use of time trying to put down the internet & diamond forums. Why not try to spend time trying figuring out how to get me back into your stores?

 

[niceice]

Hey F&I, where's the rest of this thread? We'd love to read the topic that you reference. Needless to say that we receive tons of email from B&M store owners who think that we're the anti-Christ simply because we sell diamonds on the internet... The funny thing is that we operate a traditional B&M location and a popular internet site - maintain an internet type price structure for both venues - so obviously it can be done successfully, but they seem to think that we're ruining the industry by providing "the public" with information about diamonds... Could it be that so many B&M retailers have made a killing by outright lying to the public and they're not happy to have somebody remove the blindfold from the public's eyes? That's what it seems like to us based upon the email we receive... We here things like "you told my customer that I sell chipped diamonds!" and we're thinking "well, we don't know you, so we could never have made a statement directly about you, but we did mention on our site that 'some' jewelers do sell chipped diamonds without disclosing the chips to their clients and told people to be aware of that practice - and it obviously hit a nerve, so maybe you 'do' sell chipped diamonds!"

 

[niceice]

----------------
On 4/13/2004 8:10:10 PM Furthermore wrote:

Hiya F&I -

Diamonds tend to be objects you purchase having inspected `em at close hand (difficult to do over the internet) and this means you need premises, if you`re a retailer. This costs. And the cost has to be recouped somehow, doesn`t it ?----------------

Hey Furthermore, it looks like we posted a comment at the exact same time

For the record, some of us do maintain traditional brick and mortar stores (NiceIce.com and GoodOldGold.com and DiamondBrokersofFlorida.com) and physically inspect the diamonds that we buy and sell for inventory and still maintain our internet price structures... And believe it when we say that we're "recouping" our expenses... It's called VOLUME Baby and if these B&M's stopped whining long enough to figure out how to sell lots of diamonds instead of trying to make a killing on three diamonds a month then they wouldn't be so worried about us... Some of our best competitors started out as B&M's who contacted us "stunned" out of their minds after losing a client to us, they've followed in our footsteps and the internet is a better place for it...

 

[CaptAubrey]

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On 4/13/2004 8:14:12 PM niceice wrote:

Hey F&I, where's the rest of this thread? We'd love to read the topic that you reference.

----------------

it's this thread:

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/just-goin-for-a-looksee-at-a-b-m-any-advice.14602/

this thread:

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/our-experience-with-gog.14498/

and this thread:

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/ps-vendors-whats-your-upgrade-policy.14526/

though you'll need to scroll down a ways on a couple of them to see where this all came from...

 

[aljdewey]

----------------
On 4/13/2004 8:23:33 PM niceice wrote:





For the record, some of us do maintain traditional brick and mortar stores (NiceIce.com and GoodOldGold.com and DiamondBrokersofFlorida.com) and physically inspect the diamonds that we buy and sell for inventory and still maintain our internet price structures... And believe it when we say that we're 'recouping' our expenses... It's called VOLUME Baby and if these B&M's stopped whining long enough to figure out how to sell lots of diamonds instead of trying to make a killing on three diamonds a month then they wouldn't be so worried about us... Some of our best competitors started out as B&M's who contacted us 'stunned' out of their minds after losing a client to us, they've followed in our footsteps and the internet is a better place for it...

----------------

R/T, forgive me for pointing this out, but it seems to me that one of the vendors you mentioned (hint: it's NOT good old gold) is among the loudest whiners of all.

 

[Mara]

The irony of it is that some of the 'biggest whiners' actually do have both brick and click stores. So they are playing both sides of the fence, but still complaining about the internet (and Pscope) stealing all of their sales. When in reality the truth is that the customer is becoming more educated and can whip out the same memo'd stone sold on the net for less money and stun the B&M person into bitter silence. Why not salvage that sale? Give the customer a package deal if they buy the setting...drop the stone down to the net price to be competitive and sell them a more pricey setting which should have more margin already built in. RECOVER THAT SALE. It's doable.




Personally...as much time as some spend online trollling and lurking and posting elsewhere about how the internet is educating customers and resultingly chopping their margins...you think they would apply some of that good old-fashioned elbow grease to their business model and figure out how to find that niche that F&I mentions or the 'exclusive' doodad that their store has that others don't...rather than extolling the virtues of the 'old ways' when those ways are dead and gone. Sure everyone understands that no one likes to change the way that they do something, especially if the old way fit like a glove...but life changes around you and you either adapt or you will not make it in that evolving industry.




There are enough diamonds and enough room out there for everyone to carve a piece of the pie...online or off. I'd love to see some of the hugest detractors out there stuff a sock in it, grow a pair, and turn around their sinking business model. What I want to see is a success story rather than a sob story. No one is interested in a sob story. Success story? It speaks of a tougher mettle.

 

[pqcollectibles]

----------------
On 4/13/2004 8:10:10 PM Furthermore wrote:

Hiya F&I -

There is only so much profit that can be cut off a diamond, but I think that cutting off the profit which allows the seller the chance to examine the stone in the shop..... is counterproductive. I`d certainly never make a purchase of such an expensive item having not seen it.....

Best regards (as usual)
Dave ----------------

Actually, you can buy a diamond without having seen it with your own two wittle eyes first. Work with a Vendor that has physical possession of the diamond. Let the Vendor be your eyes and tell you what they see. Many folks have done that very successfully. Like ME!!

If you purchase a diamond from a reputable Vendor and it doesn't suit your tastes, ship it back. For the price of shipping (approx. $25/diamond w/i the United States), you can preview several diamonds and still save booo koooo $$$$$.

I understand for you, Dave, and many international folks, return shipping would be a bit of a hassle and cost more.

 

[pqcollectibles]

----------------
On 4/13/2004 8:14:12 PM niceice wrote:

Hey F&I, where's the rest of this thread? We'd love to read the topic that you reference. Needless to say that we receive tons of email from B&M store owners who think that we're the anti-Christ simply because we sell diamonds on the internet... The funny thing is that we operate a traditional B&M location and a popular internet site - maintain an internet type price structure for both venues - so obviously it can be done successfully, but they seem to think that we're ruining the industry by providing 'the public' with information about diamonds... Could it be that so many B&M retailers have made a killing by outright lying to the public and they're not happy to have somebody remove the blindfold from the public's eyes? That's what it seems like to us based upon the email we receive... We here things like 'you told my customer that I sell chipped diamonds!' and we're thinking 'well, we don't know you, so we could never have made a statement directly about you, but we did mention on our site that 'some' jewelers do sell chipped diamonds without disclosing the chips to their clients and told people to be aware of that practice - and it obviously hit a nerve, so maybe you 'do' sell chipped diamonds!'

----------------

And maybe you (B&M jewelers) jack prices 3-4 times your cost just so you can give your devoted, regular customers a 25% discount off your price tag. Why, Heck!! That makes us feel sooooooo good that you value us soooooo much as a customer!!

 

[DavidEmslie]

I can say as someone who has owned a B&M as well as an Online site, as well as both at the same time.
And as someone who went from a B&M to only being an online company and supplying stores with product and custom work to sell. I can give some insight into the values from both ends.

And I have to say, it all depends on the person/jeweler ect.
Too the dinosaur jeweler or the B&M that will not evolve and change there focus. They will be extinct and have been going down the tubes. In some ways this is sad, others not.
The old school B&M guys I have worked with in the past and some that are still around, view the online diamond buyer and seller as a total bottom feeder. They see it from there angle as a direct attack against there life and well being, espeicaly the small guy. The basic, "well why am I not good enough to get it all from?"

Generaly these are the same kinds of jewelers who knock other jewelers, they are short sighted, and dont realize that by creating distrust in any part of the Industry creates distrust in all of the industry.
the one bad apple senerio.

On the other hand, Alot of jewelers, company owners ect, both online and B&M either do or do not realize the benifit of education and promotion, and recomendation.

Like restraunts and coffee shops, or any other shopping district, the more trust and top of mind awareness there is on a subject, the more business everyone does. I can say from personal experience its pretty amazing what can be created when you get a few creative open minded positive jewelers together working on a project for a greater and larger cause.

The public likes to spend money, we have had great luck focusing not on getting the most money out of people on a one time sale...but letting them get someting at a good price, and haveing them come back, Due too this kind of marketing, and of course good customer service, people keep comming back time and time again, its forced us to produse high end impulse buy items that turn quickly...but thats ok. They move, both in stores, and online.


What alot of people dont realize is the distrust goes both ways, online places are often ripping apart B&Ms, and B&Ms are always ripping on online venders. There are advantages and disadvantages to both. people should educate them selves on the good and bad of both. And do what they belive is right...and they will.

 

[Mara]

David brings up a good point..the online distrust in general.




I have seen this over the years as well as anyone who has watched the birth of eComm from a fledgling baby into the fledgling powerhouse of revenue it is now. I recall when the first online stores went up and the banter about secure servers. Who was really secure? Hackers had a heyday with credit cards. The old-fashioned types proclaimed themselves only B&M shoppers. The B&M stores felt safe. However, eCommerce is like that no longer. Everyone and their grandmother is online. Grandma may have even shopped online, wonder of wonders! I am in the eCommerce industry and I battle against the type of staid ignorance that people STILL carry about them in regards to the internet. Every day I try to figure out how to get more sales, more people buying, what keeps them from buying. I read the articles, the journals, etc. I change things in my store, add specials, promotions, modify checkout processes, add and remove popups, site content, look & feel.




Part of doing all of this and reaping the benefits of an online sale is TRUST from the customer. There are still internet hacks out there who will just take your money. But it's not necessarily safer to walk into a store and give them your money instead! The perfect example is Sears and actually their HomeLife division which went out of business about 2 years ago. They had been around a while, well Sears has...I'm not sure about HL. But I do recall HL stopped their orders and production and left alot of people in the lurch AND their assets and funds were frozen and people had paid for items and could not get their money back! One gal I remember talking to had paid something like $1500 for a dining set and was not going to see the dining set OR her money. Obviously HL went through bankruptcy court and people tried to get their money back. But that just shows..NOTHING is entirely safe. Online or offline. Whether you are spending $1500 or $7000.




I never try to be so biased towards online that I can't see the benefits of offline. There are benefits. Having something right away. Not having to pay shipping. But those are slowly going away with the advent and acceptance of things like free shipping coupons or shipping upgrades. Case in point, yesterday afternoon I ordered something from Zappos.com (potential BM shoes) and I chose the 2 day expedited shipping since we have to make a decision on these shoes fast. I placed my order at 3pm PST...so I knew it was too late to get into their shipping queue for the day. Figured it would ship today, 2 day delivery and arrive on Thurs or Fri. Imagine my surprise when the shoes came this morning at 9am! I was blown away! Zappos had expedited my shipping to next morning and sent me an email telling me they did this to thank me for being a customer. Important to note I am a first time customer and just bought from them because they had cute potential BM shoes and we are getting desperate. We looked around offline at about 4 diff stores and nothing worked. These shoes may actually work! I should also mention that they give free regular standard shipping AND return shipping, so if I don't like them, I just mail them back. It was $15 to expedite but it was worth it, esp for next morning delivery which is what this turned out to be. Zappos is smart. They know that it's probably hard to get people to buy shoes online, people HAVE to try them on first right? See the colors in person, feel the fit. They are making it as easy as possible on the customer to get that sale now and in the future. Free shipping, quick delivery...it's almost like going to the store but you don't have to make the time to go.




Anyway I tend to ramble and I could talk for days about online, offline, eComm and B&M etc. I still shop offline of course...for alot of the basics. But my days are TIGHT in terms of schedule and I have done about 70% of my shopping for the wedding online. If I don't buy it online, I research it online. It's easier to find it online and look at it and ship it than make the time to battle traffic, go to the store to SEE if I like it. The bottom line is that there is education that still needs to go on in terms of online shopping, not just diamonds but the entire industry. It is growing by leaps and bounds and the security now is better than ever before. Next year I'm sure it will be even better and the year after that etc. Every retailer is online and if they aren't, they should be. So when I see someone like these dinosaur B&M jewelers crying a river about their lost margins, I have to laugh. They need to wise up. And those that are wise enough to have online presence need to figure out how to use that to their advantage and drive more sales, get that revenue that is out there. I am always intrigued by a challenge and wouldn't appreciate something that came easy to me anyway.

There will never be an entirely internet existence, B&M's will always exist. To me the beauty is when you can exist in both the click and the brick world and carve out a happy niche for yourself in both. There doesn't need to be offline vs online. The two CAN live happily together. That's the future I'd like to be in.




My big fat dollar on the topic.

 

[valeria101]

Just wandering... how many stones are listed by PS right now? How many could a store show for a customer to choose from?

I suppose there is a tradeoff between choosing a few from hundreds of stones about which you know little and choosing one out of the few 'fully-known' stones one store can show you at a time. If one can descend a couple of stones from cyberspace and make a visual selection among stones about which he already knows quite allot, the outcome would likely be better than throwing the dice for one out of the five diamonds you have ever seen.

Trying to make the two scenarios comparable, the second would be choosing five stones at random from a list and then taking one out based on what you see; the first would be making a rational selection out of the list and choosing visually among the chosen group.

Of course, one's complete ignorance in the matter would make selection senseless in either situation. At least I hope that once anyone is presented with a database of diamond stats he would be more likely to wander - what the Hell those numbers near the price are supposed to mean?

It would be great if every shopper would have a serious collection of jewels already and rely on his familiarity with buying valuable jewelry. It's probably better to learn about gems from the collections of your friends and family (assuming some old and long family names among them) - but this scenario is not consistent with what most buyers face when shopping for the fabled E-ring.

 

[valeria101]

Am I wrong assuming that Furthermore referes to buying rough diamonds?

Gee.. getting those sight unseen does seem completely out of this world. All in all, the chance to get what you want would be less than digging for the stuff would allow. At least the dirt does not cheat

The whole market would need to be reinvented for virtual sales to work. The one for cut diamonds seems to go that way

 

[Brian Knox]

"B&M ? Direct your energies in a positive direction "

Wow, although is was probably unitentional, that statement is somewhat inflammatory.

If you do not agree with this sentiment, imagine the above statment but substitute another profession for "B&M" or another group of people be it Jews or Irish or whatever.

These type of statements do not stand up to daylight.

The post that followed was less a blanket indictment, but the bell had already been rung.

As a new B&M/B&C member to this forum , the above mentioned title to this post suggested to me that If I was to be here that I would have to kow-tow to get along here, I've never been good at kow-towing.

I know that this was not your intent, I am just telling you how I felt.

Let me end up by adding something positive.

I feel David made some very valid points regarding the mutual criticism and negativity that pervades the divide between business models.

I agree that this is actually hurting the industry in general.

There is room for everybody, and a lot of the "banter" is just competition, in the end the market will decide the direction.

 

[69gm]

i think i've been very lucky to find a B&M here locally in hawaii that i like and trust. it's not always easy, but i know they're out there.

just need to go with your eyes wide open, armed with knowledge gained by the good folks here at PS. with that kinda ammo, you'll know who you can and cannot trust.

the one big advantage a B&M has, is that they have the stone right there to show you, or more often than not, they will get it for you to show you, no obligations (at least my B&M was like that. if i didn't like the stones he brought in, he would return them and continue the search for me). not possible with a strictly internet store.

 

[pricescope]

Brian, I think this thread appeared is a reaction on other posts cited above. You also know very well what is going on in the trade and some trade’ sites where internet diamond sites and this one in particular are bad-mouthing very heavily.

I think references to B&M stores are very balanced on this board. Some people post about good experience at B&M, some don't. We know there are many good and knowledgeable B&M jewelers out there.

I hope you will agree (even the president of GIA admitted it) that there are many people in the trade that do not keep up with the latest knowledge. Educated consumers see it right away.

The message of this post to B&M is to wake up and instead of bashing internet and try to restrict it within the trade, listen to what your customers really want and adjust your business accordingly.

This board is an excellent opportunity for the trade member to listen and talk to the consumers. Consumers don’t want to hear "Let me tell you something... I’ve been in this business for 30 years" anymore. They want answers on their questions and concerns.

Your posts here are good example how to participate in this dialog in a positive and constructive manner. I hope your colleagues will learn how to talk openly to the consumers too instead of accusing this site as being anti-jeweler

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 4/14/2004 9:53:34 AM brianknox wrote:

'B&M ? Direct your energies in a positive direction '

Wow, although is was probably unitentional, that statement is somewhat inflammatory.

If you do not agree with this sentiment, imagine the above statment but substitute another profession for 'B&M' or another group of people be it Jews or Irish or whatever.

These type of statements do not stand up to daylight.

The post that followed was less a blanket indictment, but the bell had already been rung.

As a new B&M/B&C member to this forum , the above mentioned title to this post suggested to me that If I was to be here that I would have to kow-tow to get along here, I've never been good at kow-towing.

I know that this was not your intent, I am just telling you how I felt.

There is room for everybody, and a lot of the 'banter' is just competition, in the end the market will decide the direction.



----------------

A little sensitive? It's ridiculous to assert that the statement could be akin to a racial slur. I'm sorry you interpreted it that way. It was certainly not my intention. And feel your turning the tables on *me* is somewhat passive agressive rather than addressing my post & issues. And, in my opinion, I do see quite a bit of "whinning" from B&M stores about on-line operations. Your initial addresssing of my "complaint" is precisely what I am addressing.

If as you say, it's all about competition, then why is the pervasive theme (that I hear) "on-line" is bad? Wouldn't it be more productive to focus on the positive aspects of buying from a trad. B&M? Also, since the internet is that 1 ton gorrila here to stay, how does the B&M improve on their experience or niche rather than trying to tear down the internet experience?

I'm a consumer. When I walk into a retail store, I don't want to be told about how the internet only has crap. One jeweler actually pulled out a stone he said he bought on the internet. I couldn't let that go. I asked him if he bought that from ebay. The answer was yes. I asked him what he paid for it. He said x. I asked him if he thought he got what he paid for? Quite a bit of mumbling & then an answer of yes. I said, you know as well as I know that quality varies everywhere. This stone could be sold anywhere. It insulted my intelligence.

I am not saying that every B&M is "evil" as they themselves had refered. I do see many sending negative messages, including in their own professional atmosphere. I just don't understand the sentiment of saying someone else is bad instead of saying why I am good. And, if I viewed the internet as competition, then why not try to hedge the competition and think inside of oneself?

Mara is right. All jewelry stores should have at least an on-line presence. It's called the yellow pages of today.

Brian, I am quite surprised at your post. I have always enjoyed your posts. They have been concise and very informative. Quite frankly, I rarely if ever remember having issues with your posts. Kow Tow? Geez, do you think I do? I'm always causin trouble outside the party line.

In the end, you guys all have to live together. As a consumer, I find your (all venues) to be a bit disfunctional right now. Change is inevidiable (sp? too early in the am). And, profits come & go. Mara, again, is correct. Rather then see just the diamond & profit - see the whole package & experience. There are those consumers that just want the cheapest price sans service. There are those consumers who are into the experience & will pay whatever to get it. BUT - most consumers just want perceived value. Service/ hands on is included in that equation.

B&M's aren't going away. Heck, hubby is an architect, contractor & developer of buildings. He's doing just fine & I don't think things will change - evolve maybe - but not change. In fact, just before the holidays, they did a very large free standing full service jewelery store. Confidence exists.

I'm just a consumer telling it from my perspective. How are you (B&M's) going to bring me back in to shop? I am not very computer savvy. I like a very hands-on experience. If you have lost me, it's a problem.

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 4/14/2004 10:08:21 AM 69gm wrote:


the one big advantage a B&M has, is that they have the stone right there to show you, or more often than not, they will get it for you to show you, no obligations (at least my B&M was like that. if i didn't like the stones he brought in, he would return them and continue the search for me). not possible with a strictly internet store.----------------

Hello my Hawaian friend! I miss that crazy cat!

69gem is a prime reason why B&M's are alive & strong - or at least can be!

 

[Hest88]

----------------
Zappos had expedited my shipping to next morning and sent me an email telling me they did this to thank me for being a customer.
----------------

See, what I find when I hear the B&M whining, be it from jewelers or booksellers or anyone else, is that they want to pretend that successful Internet dealers have some sort of an underhanded, unfair advantage. Actually, though, most of the Internet stores that have thrived have distinguished themselves in a very old-fashioned way: customer service. *That* is the lesson the B&Ms need to learn.

For instance, I make an effort to shop locally, even if I'm paying a bit more, and I try to shop at small mom and pop stores. However, I remember how amazed I was the first time I got an Amazon shipment. Not only did it arrived as promised, but they obviously took a lot of care in packaging the book so it wouldn't get damaged. *That's* what I remember, and that's why I go back.

 

[CaptAubrey]

the rules have changed. the internet is not going away, nor are internet diamonds. if ps went out of business, someone else would open up another site just like it in a week. the demand is there; someone will service it.




people should realize there is more than one type of customer. some seek out relationships with vendors and are comfortable trusting people they like. these people tend not to shop online because it's harder to have such a relationship over a monitor.




others want to be in control of the process and to understand exactly what they're buying. before the internet, these customers had no choice but to trust their jeweler, though they might not have liked it. the trade typically viewed these people as "difficult" customers. the internet has given them control they did not have before, and they aren't going to give it up. instead of trying to force these customers to play by the old rules, smart vendors are changing their sales tactics. the not-smart vendors are the ones losing that business.




david's comments are very apt. all this negativity helps no one. but i see more in the online community trying to reach out to the general trade than vice versa. e.g., there are no internet vendors holding conventions to discuss ways of shutting down b&m jewelers.

 

[Hest88]

----------------
If you do not agree with this sentiment, imagine the above statment but substitute another profession for "B&M" or another group of people be it Jews or Irish or whatever.
----------------

And this I find very offensive. A store does not have some God-given right to exist. It is a business, that competes for customers, and aims to make a profit. Anything else is marketing. I do not go to heaven because I purchase from a particular business, nor do I go to hell because I choose to go elsewhere. It does not speak to my character or my morals. If you want my business, you must prove your worth. It's called capitalism. Don't try to make it my personal failing.

 

[69gm]

----------------
On 4/14/2004 10:42:39 AM fire&ice wrote:

----------------
On 4/14/2004 10:08:21 AM 69gm wrote:


the one big advantage a B&M has, is that they have the stone right there to show you, or more often than not, they will get it for you to show you, no obligations (at least my B&M was like that. if i didn't like the stones he brought in, he would return them and continue the search for me). not possible with a strictly internet store.----------------

Hello my Hawaian friend! I miss that crazy cat!

69gem is a prime reason why B&M's are alive & strong - or at least can be!
----------------

thanks f&i! my apologies for my hiatus. been busy at work and planning the wedding. been sick a lot this year too...not my year for health...

missed everyone. not sure how much i can contribute but i'll try.