Find your diamond
Find your jewelry
shape
carat
color
clarity

attorneys -- please advise

TooPatient

TooPatient

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Sep 1, 2009
Messages
10,295
Sorry to write a post like this but I really need some advice. I''ve talked to two attorneys already and they say very different things.

Last year we donated an airplane to a museum. The deed of sale and everything was signed and they sent us a check (for a small fraction of the value) along with a letter accepting the donation. After everything was signed and done, they came back with a title report showing a lien on the airplane.

I''d like to clear the title for them, but it is turning into a big expensive mess.


Who is responsible for clearing the lien off the title?



ETA: the lien is fraudulent & way past the expiration (sorry I don''t know the legal term -- lien was filed in 2000 & CA law shows it is no good after 3 years)
 
Disclaimer - I''m not an attorney *yet* but my property memory may be more recent than others.

So basically, you can''t transfer property (said airplane) to a third party (the museum) if you don''t own it outright. Since a third party is entering claiming the lien, it is your responsibility to clear the title. In fact, there really isn''t anything the museum can do in terms of clearing the lien b/c it technically can''t own the airplane until the lien is cleared from your ownership.

Not sure that helps...but it seems to me that you''ve got to deal with this lien issue before you can pass title of the plane.
 
TP, don''t you work for an attorney?
 
Date: 5/10/2010 10:43:28 PM
Author: megumic
Disclaimer - I''m not an attorney *yet* but my property memory may be more recent than others.

So basically, you can''t transfer property (said airplane) to a third party (the museum) if you don''t own it outright. Since a third party is entering claiming the lien, it is your responsibility to clear the title. In fact, there really isn''t anything the museum can do in terms of clearing the lien b/c it technically can''t own the airplane until the lien is cleared from your ownership.

Not sure that helps...but it seems to me that you''ve got to deal with this lien issue before you can pass title of the plane.
Click to expand...
I''m also not an attorney (though in the interest of full disclosure, I do work for a law firm), but this seems right to me.

If you say it''s not a valid lien, then it should be a very simple process to get it taken off the title.
 
What does the deed say? Property is sold free and clear of all liens, or not? And, what did the two attorneys that you spoke with say? And, what was their reasoning?
 
megumic -- that is exactly what I had read in my research but it was a bit ambiguous so I didn''t want to just assume it was or wasn''t.

HH -- even worse, I work for stock brokers (not the best week to work in this industry)

lily -- the same mechanic had another lien identical to this that we found out about and took care of earlier. It still had to be filed with the courts and cost several thousand dollars of attorney time

LV -- I''m not sure what the deed says. I think we still have a copy somewhere I can look at. One attorney said that it was their responsibility because they signed and finalized everything. The other said it was not clear who was responsible but if we wanted to insist that it is their problem and let them handle it we''d be facing suit in court... (this guy was suggested by a friend of the museum board members so I didn''t want to just trust this)


Update: We decided that it isn''t worth the struggle to determine who is supposed to be dealing with it. I called the attorney (the one the museum suggested) and gave him a retainer. Not happy with the way it was handled by the museum but it isn''t worth the headache of fighting.

Thanks again for the feedback here. I''d tried talking to other attorneys I know and none of them were familiar enough with this sort of thing to say one way or the other.
 
I''m sorry you tried to do a kind thing and ended up with a headache, TP. I hope it all works out without too much struggle.
 
Date: 5/11/2010 9:14:42 AM
Author: lilyfoot

Date: 5/10/2010 10:43:28 PM
Author: megumic
Disclaimer - I''m not an attorney *yet* but my property memory may be more recent than others.

So basically, you can''t transfer property (said airplane) to a third party (the museum) if you don''t own it outright. Since a third party is entering claiming the lien, it is your responsibility to clear the title. In fact, there really isn''t anything the museum can do in terms of clearing the lien b/c it technically can''t own the airplane until the lien is cleared from your ownership.

Not sure that helps...but it seems to me that you''ve got to deal with this lien issue before you can pass title of the plane.
Click to expand...
I''m also not an attorney (though in the interest of full disclosure, I do work for a law firm), but this seems right to me.

If you say it''s not a valid lien, then it should be a very simple process to get it taken off the title.
Click to expand...
I''m not an attorney either, but I''m a certified paralegal and I work for a law firm that deals with mechanic''s liens on a regular basis. For what it''s worth, I think Megumic and Lilyfoot are right.
 
I deal with titles and liens-have for years.

The lien was valid before you purchased the merchandise. It was the seller's responsibility THEN to provide YOU with a free and clear title. It is also your responsibility as the buyer to make certain any merchandise you receive is free and clear of any liens or encumbrances. And that you are transacting with the rightful owner who has a right to transfer said "stuff".

That was not done by you or the seller. On paper, this is going to sound harsh, but you never actually owned the aircraft. The lien holder has first right over you even though you have had it for 10 years-it matters not what you paid for it or how much it costs to store it or insure it. Of course this is all on paper.

I believe as you do that the lien is not CURRENT. I think it was merely a paper clerk error and not filed. Your insurance company would have had the title, registration or the owners name to insure and they would have had to exclude or include the lien holder in the policy-if they were infact rightfully current. Since that was not found then, I too agree the lien is not current. But from my experience liens don't expire. They are only released or satisfied.

It is usually an easy fix. A call to the lien holder, or lien holders bank and or estate can usually provide your with a copy of the release. The paper will state lien was released such and such date and time. It was a clerical error that is was not removed from title. That paper is usually notarized and provided the vin number, serial, year, manufacture...all identifying the aircraft, boat, auto, etc. Just like a lien on a piece of real estate.

It really shouldn't cost anything other than a expedited postal mailing fee.

To answer your question, the seller that transferred to you was responsible. But in receiving it with a lien you acted foolishly.

but I still love you anyway! Kiss Kiss. (adding humor to help the blow of calling you foolish...please take that as litely as I am trying to soften the blow) Eeekks.

35.gif
 
CB, I think the lein was placed on the plane while they owned it, not before they purchased it. They were unaware of the lein and tried to donate it.
 
Date: 5/11/2010 2:42:06 PM
Author: Hudson_Hawk
CB, I think the lein was placed on the plane while they owned it, not before they purchased it. They were unaware of the lein and tried to donate it.
Click to expand...
Thanks HH -- this is correct. We owned the airplane and this mechanic filed a lien on it even though he hadn''t done any work (he''s done this to other people too) and filed a lien without giving any notice that he was going to or even that he had filed a lien. This type of lien in CA is only good for three years. After that, it has to be renewed or it is no good.

CB --
Thanks for the great reply. If the mechanic was less of a creep, sending a letter requesting he sign the enclosed release would be all that we would need to do (this was what we tried first the last time we dealt with him). The problem is that he is a creep and refuses to sign the release. At that point, a document has to be filed with the court (essentially suing him for the release of lien) and then served to him. He then has 30 days to sign or else we have to actually pursue it through the courts. (last time, he signed on day 30)


ETA: After learing about this one, I did run a check to make sure it is the only lien remaining ANYWHERE from this guy so we don''t have to do this again.
 
Wait.

He filed a mechanic's lien even though he did no work on the plane? Did he have a contract to do such work? If not, the lien is not valid. He can file whatever he wants, I guess, but he can't enforce it.

It also depends on what your bill of sale with the museum said. Are they taking the plane "as-is" or did you represent or warrant that they were taking it free and clear of liens?

Different states have different laws on this, obviously.

But I actually don't agree that it's necessarily your problem. Especially if it's an invalid lien. They should have done the title report BEFORE you closed this transaction.

BUT. Let's assume either it is your problem or you just want to be nice and take care of it. Can you try and find an attorney that is willing to donate their time to a non-profit? Attorneys have to do pro bono hours, you could probably find someone that would be willing to do so. The charity could mention this wonderful attorney in its next newsletter or something.

If the lien is really invalid, it shouldn't be that hard to clear up. Have an attorney send a letter saying the lien is invalid and if the mechanic doesn't file a release, you will sue him. What are they telling you they need to do to take care of it? A letter could take MAYBE an hour to draft. MAYBE.

I mean, there's really nothing the mechanic can do with this lien. I don't think he can enforce it. Tell him to try and foreclose on it.

Just some thoughts. It really shouldn't be that expensive to take care of, unless I am missing something here.

Also, I thought (but could be wrong) that the only way to file a proper lien on an airplane was to file it with the FAA in Oklahoma City?????

ETA: Obviously this is NOT my professional legal opinion. You'd have to read the contract and also know the property statutes in your state plus research aviation law. Just asking some questions and trying to think this through for you.

ETAA: Ok, sorry, didn't see your post above where you explained what you needed to do. Sorry this guy is such a jerk and that you are dealing with this! I hope it gets resolved quickly and easily for you. He'll probably sign it, he does NOT want to get sued, he would have to pay an attorney and if he knows it's invalid he won't take that chance. Good luck!
 
Thanks for catching my error HH. Eyes like a HAWK! wink wink.

I read and reread everything BEFORE I posted. I didn''t decipher the lien was put on WHILE they owned it.
I saw one lien was put on earlier and they took care of it. That is all I read. Was there a discussion on another thread? So SORRY ALL, so sorry. Especially to you TP!

Since you didn''t tell us TP, did the courts find he had some merit in his claim on the first legal battle you had? If not wouldn''t a bogus lien allow you to collect all legal fees? Is the amount a duplicate of the first amount you cleared already? If so I can see just what a peach he is. "I''ll Show them".

Oh wait, is the peachy mechanic suing for hanger/storage fees? Did you remove aircraft without proper notice? Is the lien under the guise of work completed actually hanger fees? (Had that done several times.) Oh in my area, if a mechanic had a lien filed, he can continue to renew it if he pays the renewal fee. Just like judgments.

I agree with Megumic...the museum has absolutely no way to get the document released. That does fall on your responsibility.

This first link gives you a listing of aircraft attorney''s specializing in title work. Call a few of them, and make certain your current attorney is heading in the correct cost effective manner. If not move to a more competent one from the list.

Again, so sorry for my error. Thanks HH!
35.gif
 
CB, no you didn''t miss any specific mention of it, that''s just what I inferred from the wording of her post.
 
Hi Too Patient,

I''m not a lawyer and this is not legal advice, but I thought it would be useful to direct you to the California Department of Consumer Affairs'' instructions for what to do if you have a mechanic''s lien filed against you (I think you mentioned the lien was filed in CA). There''s a section in there about Invalid Liens, too.


Hope this helps.
 
Thanks for the links BigT and CasaBlanca. I''ll look at those for more information. I gave an attorney in CA a retainer yesterday and he is already started with trying to contact the mechanic to give him fair chance to sign before we actually have to file in court.

CB --
The mechanic didn''t store any airplane and he never actually even laid eyes on this airplane. With the first one (that we already dealt with), he did about two hours of work and billed for it. He was paid in full for his bill. Several years later he filed the lien claiming he was owed money. There had been no further work/storage/contact with him (since the work he did wasn''t very good) and no further bills. We found out about this lien when someone ran into the airplane and the insurance company did a title check. (This is when the attorney had us send a letter to him and then filed the stuff with the court -- since he signed within the 30 days after being served with the papers, we did not have to pursue it in court. We could have pushed him for attorney fees, but we were sick of the mess and didn''t want to pay more attorney/court stuff just to get him to pay the other attorney fees)

This lien is only $3000 (the other was $12,000) but like I said above, he never so much as laid eyes on this airplane. My suspicion is that he filed this one for a small amount (relatively) in hopes that it wouldn''t be worth getting an attorney and we''d just hand him a check instead. (when he filed the liens he was going through a divorce and was having financial problems)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
GET 3 FREE HCA RESULTS JOIN THE FORUM. ASK FOR HELP
Jewelry Blog
PriceScope-Concierge-Ad
Find prime cuts.
Top