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At what point is a good cut good enough to not make any difference?

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Sharon101

Brilliant_Rock
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Sep 5, 2007
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Ok, how long is a piece of string??? Thought I would start with an easy question!!!! j/k.

Really, I have been debating about this since I started on PS but didnt want to seem negative againt the hunt for the best cut possible. I actually really get the desire for a diamond that is cut to the highest standards. It is both a mind thing and a logical conclusion after learning what really drives a diamonds looks.

My question can be compared to a diamonds clarity. An IF looks the same to the naked eye as a VVS and even the same as an eyeclean P1. For the sake of the argument, one can save money by choosing an eyeclean P1 and have no lowering of the look of their diamond. And in fact one could go up in size or get a better color which is desirable and advantageous to the diamonds appearance.

My question is, at what point does a good cut not look any better to the human eye to keep improving its stats. And Im refering to a set diamond that is being worn. How much is just a mind issue with this cut science same as we know IF is a mind issue......not a necesity as it cant be detected by the human eye. At what point is the extra cut not going to make any difference that the eye can see.

Any takers here?
 
Also does the size play a role in how a diamond is percieved. Like for a tiny diamond, do people see the size first or does the cut stand out and override it being small. (For those that deliberately chose smaller over bigger and got the best cut possible). Like at some point, a small (say .2 to .5) diamond makes it hard to see any cut let alone if it is super, or am I wrong???

I know its very personal, but was just putting it out there that in the real world people do look at size maybe more or equal to cut.

Also want to add that Im not refering to really bad cuts where it is obvious that it is poor quality. Its not just between frozen spit or tripple excellent etc!!!!

Maybe it can be answered like this.......is there an equivelant eye clean P1 in terms of cut and what level is this!
 
I may be way off on this, but that hasn't stopped me before! The cut will change the amount of light return and fire you get from the diamond. So a well cut .5 will be much more fiery and shinier. This can make it seem more than it is in carats. It's hard to describe, but I'd take a fiery .5 over a dull .75. Of course, I tend towards smaller stones and simpler designs anyway, so I'm a bit biased.

From what I've read a small difference in cut can have an enormous impact on light return.

Also: A piece of string is as long as twice the distance from the middle to one end.
 
Date: 4/22/2008 3:36:28 AM
Author: Sharon101
Also does the size play a role in how a diamond is percieved. Like for a tiny diamond, do people see the size first or does the cut stand out and override it being small. (For those that deliberately chose smaller over bigger and got the best cut possible). Like at some point, a small (say .2 to .5) diamond makes it hard to see any cut let alone if it is super, or am I wrong???

I know its very personal, but was just putting it out there that in the real world people do look at size maybe more or equal to cut.

Also want to add that Im not refering to really bad cuts where it is obvious that it is poor quality. Its not just between frozen spit or tripple excellent etc!!!!

Maybe it can be answered like this.......is there an equivelant eye clean P1 in terms of cut and what level is this!
Click to expand...
For size, I know that melees don''t have to be super duper ideal cut. Anything 10 point and under with a VG cut will be difficult to distinguish from an ideal cut melee because the facets are so small that all you''ll see is a ton of pinpoint sparkles.

However, for .2 to .5 ct, differences in cut is noticeable even when comparing average cuts. I suppose its up to the individual buyer''s eyes to pick that out. If the buyer hasn''t seen an ideal cut, then the average cut diamond will look great to the buyer''s eyes.
 
Yes, but does the difference between a good cut and a great cut make any real difference in real life to the observer? Not comparing dull cuts, but good to great?
 
I can understand where you are coming from, Sharon. While cut is the most important C, in many ways it can be the most difficult to distinguish. Our jeweler was the first one to show us the difference before we bought our e-ring. He placed a poorly cut 1-carat stone next to one cut with "ideal" proportions and when they were next to each other, I couldn''t believe the difference. The poorly cut stone looked dull, lifeless and small. These were round brilliants and I knew I was buying a step cut, but he proved to me that cut was the most important C (this was before I found pricescope).

The problem is that I don''t have a trained eye like those in the industry do, I''m just a normal consumer, so while I might be able to weed out poorly-cut diamonds I don''t know if I could distinguish an ideal cut diamond from a pretty-well cut diamond if they weren''t side by side.

I just so happen to work about a block from the diamond district in my city, so when I bought my mom''s AGS Ideal pendant, I decided to compare it to a few diamonds in the B&Ms around here to see if I could see a difference. I honestly could--while the other diamonds look nice in the window, there was still a significant difference when comparing them to the AGS Ideal (it wasn''t even an ACA, it was an ideal from Whiteflash''s Expert Selection).

For me, this sealed the deal--if I ever buy a round brilliant for myself, it will be an AGS ideal. Like any other normal woman, I think most diamonds look fantastic under those nice lights, but after comparing, I know there is a difference. Unfortunately most jewelers don''t want to SHOW you the difference.
 
Date: 4/22/2008 7:49:58 AM
Author: Sharon101
Yes, but does the difference between a good cut and a great cut make any real difference in real life to the observer? Not comparing dull cuts, but good to great?
Click to expand...

I personally think so. I''ve compared some excellent cut diamonds from GIA (friends diamonds that I helped the husband pick out) with some super ideal cuts, and to ME I can see a difference even without being told first which is which.

I think personally if it has H&A and has been graded an AGS0 that is good enough for me. I can''t pick out the differences there, but I CAN pick them out between a "very good" or "excellent" cut and something that is considered H&A superideal.
 
Date: 4/22/2008 9:20:58 AM
Author: NewEnglandLady
I can understand where you are coming from, Sharon. While cut is the most important C, in many ways it can be the most difficult to distinguish. Our jeweler was the first one to show us the difference before we bought our e-ring. He placed a poorly cut 1-carat stone next to one cut with ''ideal'' proportions and when they were next to each other, I couldn''t believe the difference. The poorly cut stone looked dull, lifeless and small. These were round brilliants and I knew I was buying a step cut, but he proved to me that cut was the most important C (this was before I found pricescope).

The problem is that I don''t have a trained eye like those in the industry do, I''m just a normal consumer, so while I might be able to weed out poorly-cut diamonds I don''t know if I could distinguish an ideal cut diamond from a pretty-well cut diamond if they weren''t side by side.

I just so happen to work about a block from the diamond district in my city, so when I bought my mom''s AGS Ideal pendant, I decided to compare it to a few diamonds in the B&Ms around here to see if I could see a difference. I honestly could--while the other diamonds look nice in the window, there was still a significant difference when comparing them to the AGS Ideal (it wasn''t even an ACA, it was an ideal from Whiteflash''s Expert Selection).

For me, this sealed the deal--if I ever buy a round brilliant for myself, it will be an AGS ideal. Like any other normal woman, I think most diamonds look fantastic under those nice lights, but after comparing, I know there is a difference. Unfortunately most jewelers don''t want to SHOW you the difference.
Click to expand...

Thanks everyone, Im not knocking this best cut is king theory. God knows I love having the best of everything (I can dream...), so can definately relate. And one day I will buy a diamond just for cut and I will probably go all the way in getting the best possible just to appease my curiosity! (Would love to get an eternity band one day!). But Im dying to hear whether at a certain point it is the same difference to the observer. Like here, are you saying an AGS ideal is good enough and there is not much difference to go to a ACA?

Im trying to work out at what point is the premium redundant and just a mind thing. eg Im comparing it to the premium involved in getting an IF stone compared to a VVS stone, both look identical.

I got thinking about this when I watched the video here on PS where strangers were asked to judge some loose diamonds. Maybe a few more than half guessed which was better cut, but most could hardly tell and seemed to be very unsure. So to me Im wondering why it wasnt glaringly obvious as to what was the better cut. Im guessing that beyond a certain standard its near impossible to tell.
 
I'm at the point, sadly, where without my bifocals and loupe, I can only see what sparkles more. So for *me*, a top notch ideal cut H&A's best qualities would be largely lost on me. Therefore, I will never own one, because in the real practical world, I don't go around louping my stone everday. The novelty wears off for me. I'm 45, this may play a large part in my opinion, as well as the fact that my eyesight has only been bad in the last 2-3 years. (it was sudden)
41.gif


ETA: the other reason I wouldn't bother is because I'm happy with my near ideal stone, and any disposable cash we might have from here on out has already been spoken for. Toys for the family even. A killer 5 stone for me one day.
 
Yes, I think most people would not be able to tell the ACA apart from an AGS0 stone (which all ACAs are AGS0s anyway).
 
Yes, I have to laugh (or cry) about the eye sight thing. For many reasons its a good thing to not be able to see every wrinkle etc as you get older. Seems like tollerance for less precise cut of diamonds also gets the nod. Im 40 and maybe thats why almost every diamond I see looks fantastic....maybe my eyes are the issue!!!!
 
Ignorance is bliss. Majority of people just want to know that they have a real diamond, that's why the jewelry stores use the little pen contraption that beeps. The cut is not a priority.
 
Date: 4/22/2008 12:54:09 PM
Author: baby monster
that''s why the jewelry stores use the little pen contraption that beeps.
Click to expand...
Is this some sort of diamond testing appraiser tool?

Mostly...I just wanted to share my appreciation for this good big question. The idea of including size as a variable in the total or "net" valuation is good, too.

To a certain extent...I think the question becomes simplified when you constrain for the sources of information.

For example...are you satisfied that you''re a good enough arbiter of goodness?

If not...then regardless of how extremely good the diamond is or is not...you may want to only go with a source whose expertise you trust...in which case...you are paying a certain premium for this, regardless. But...as seen here...it doesn''t have to be a high premium.

Alternately, if your satisfied with your ability to master the tools reviewed on this board, s(h)avings may be further available. Still...deferring to a respected supply source may mitigate the importance of the question.
 
Date: 4/22/2008 10:42:42 AM
Author: Sharon101

Date: 4/22/2008 9:20:58 AM
Author: NewEnglandLady
I can understand where you are coming from, Sharon. While cut is the most important C, in many ways it can be the most difficult to distinguish. Our jeweler was the first one to show us the difference before we bought our e-ring. He placed a poorly cut 1-carat stone next to one cut with ''ideal'' proportions and when they were next to each other, I couldn''t believe the difference. The poorly cut stone looked dull, lifeless and small. These were round brilliants and I knew I was buying a step cut, but he proved to me that cut was the most important C (this was before I found pricescope).

The problem is that I don''t have a trained eye like those in the industry do, I''m just a normal consumer, so while I might be able to weed out poorly-cut diamonds I don''t know if I could distinguish an ideal cut diamond from a pretty-well cut diamond if they weren''t side by side.

I just so happen to work about a block from the diamond district in my city, so when I bought my mom''s AGS Ideal pendant, I decided to compare it to a few diamonds in the B&Ms around here to see if I could see a difference. I honestly could--while the other diamonds look nice in the window, there was still a significant difference when comparing them to the AGS Ideal (it wasn''t even an ACA, it was an ideal from Whiteflash''s Expert Selection).

For me, this sealed the deal--if I ever buy a round brilliant for myself, it will be an AGS ideal. Like any other normal woman, I think most diamonds look fantastic under those nice lights, but after comparing, I know there is a difference. Unfortunately most jewelers don''t want to SHOW you the difference.
Click to expand...

Thanks everyone, Im not knocking this best cut is king theory. God knows I love having the best of everything (I can dream...), so can definately relate. And one day I will buy a diamond just for cut and I will probably go all the way in getting the best possible just to appease my curiosity! (Would love to get an eternity band one day!). But Im dying to hear whether at a certain point it is the same difference to the observer. Like here, are you saying an AGS ideal is good enough and there is not much difference to go to a ACA?

Im trying to work out at what point is the premium redundant and just a mind thing. eg Im comparing it to the premium involved in getting an IF stone compared to a VVS stone, both look identical.

I got thinking about this when I watched the video here on PS where strangers were asked to judge some loose diamonds. Maybe a few more than half guessed which was better cut, but most could hardly tell and seemed to be very unsure. So to me Im wondering why it wasnt glaringly obvious as to what was the better cut. Im guessing that beyond a certain standard its near impossible to tell.
Click to expand...
I know you''re not trying to knock cut at all--in fact, I know it''s really important to you.

I guess my long-winded point was that I could probably detect a very poor cut with my eyes, but probably wouldn''t get able to tell the difference between a very good cut and an ideal cut unless they were next to one another. And even then, I can''t say for sure I''d know!

The reason I went with an AGS0, non-ACA stone is because I kept reading that most people could not tell the difference between and AGS0 and ACA. If it were for a ring, I''d probably spring for the ACA just so I know I got the best cut, but this was for a pendant and I wanted to get a great stone with the most spread on a budget and I knew an AGS0 would be fantastic without having to pay the premium for the ACA. This is one instance where even if they were right next to each other, I don''t think I''d be able to tell the difference.
 
Let''s take the GIA cut grading standard as an example. When GIA set the boundary
between Excellent and Very Good they used human observation to help set those boundaries. They found the point where the majority of observers could make a preference between Excellent and Very Good. This is why I think GIA Excellent is a broad range. Because 1) they used unaided human observation and 2) they required a majority consensus.

I have no idea how AGS set the boundary between 0 and 1. What if a diamond gets AGS 2 is it a dog? Is it pretty? In the video interview between Garry and Maarten DeWitte (of Hearts on Fire), Maarten is shown 2 diamonds, an AGS0 and an AGS2 (or 3) Guess which one Maarten ends up picking?


Now, if they had taken that same approach (unaided human observation and majority consensus) to color grading and clarity grading then
perhaps we might have for color: colorless, near colorless, slightly tinted, etc...
Categories where the majority of people can make clear distinctions, the majority of the time. And we might get clarity grading where IF to SI1 get lumped together.
I have no problem with people choosing D/IF or AGS0 H&A even if they can’t tell the difference . Buy what makes you happy.
 
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