Article on Trump voters

[redwood66]

I thought this was an interesting take on the white working class and I may have to read the book that is referenced. While I am not exactly in the WWC category described, I do understand it. I value college and upward mobility for my family. Bettering oneself was ingrained in me which I passed to my kids. I do understand the part about not wanting to leave a comfortable town where pace is slow and everyone knows everyone else, greeting each other with a smile. And I do feel some of the condescension from those considered elites, it is slightly irritating that someone could possibly think they are better than me just because they have X, Y, Z. I have been in situations that feel like the bottom (they probably were) but never felt like it would not get any better someday.

http://nypost.com/2017/05/13/why-working-class-america-voted-with-their-middle-finger/

 

[monarch64]

As someone who grew up and was socialized with WWC people/kids, I can say I have zero sympathy for their "plight." The hypocrisy and *******ry is rampant. Anyone different is a threat and is dealt with accordingly. Black people? Nope, and if you are you are beaten and nearly killed in the middle of the night for daring to live anywhere near whites.

I spent a lot of time dumbing myself down in high school. I have had several former classmates tell me "I had no idea how intelligent you are!" Because if you were smart, you made sure you didn't appear smart or "know-it-all" or use "fifty cent" words. Those who excelled or stood out from the crowd were only revered if they did so in sports or beauty pageants.

I never, not once, made fun of someone or mocked them for being obtuse, simple, ill-mannered, or unsophistocated. Never. But you better believe I was made fun of and bullied from day 1 when I wore nice clothing to school or showed any sort of different behavior that wasn't like everyone else's. Therefore articles like this only reinforce my experience and opinion--that haters gonna hate and there is no excuse for it, and nothing will ever change. The WWC aren't victims, they're the bullies.

 

[redwood66]

Monnie I am sorry you felt you had to dumb yourself down. I am glad I did not have that when I was a child. I was the smart nerd band geek who was made fun of because it. I can't imagine that all WWCs are like you describe though.

 

[t-c]

This article from The Atlantic supports the NY Post article:

It Was Cultural Anxiety That Drove White, Working-Class Voters to Trump
A new study finds that fear of societal change, not economic pressure, motivated votes for the president among non-salaried workers without college degrees.

Emma Green
May 9, 2017

White Americans carried Donald Trump to the White House. He won college-educated white voters by a four-point margin over Hillary Clinton, according to exit polls. But his real victory was among members of the white working class: Twice as many of these voters cast their ballots for the president as for Clinton.

In the wake of Trump’s surprise win, some journalists, scholars, and political strategists argued that economic anxiety drove these Americans to Trump. But new analysis of post-election survey data conducted by the Public Religion Research Institute and The Atlantic found something different: Evidence suggests financially troubled voters in the white working class were more likely to prefer Clinton over Trump. Besides partisan affiliation, it was cultural anxiety—feeling like a stranger in America, supporting the deportation of immigrants, and hesitating about educational investment—that best predicted support for Trump.

This data adds to the public’s mosaic-like understanding of the 2016 election. It suggests Trump’s most powerful message, at least among some Americans, was about defending the country’s putative culture. Because this message seems to have resonated so deeply with voters, Trump’s policies, speeches, and eventual reelection may depend on their perception of how well he fulfills it.

In September and October 2016, PRRI and The Atlantic surveyed American voters about how they were feeling about politics. Researchers specifically focused on white, working-class voters—people without college degrees or salaried jobs. This group accounts for one-third of American adults. They make up a bigger share of the population in the Midwest than they do in any other region, and more than half of rural Americans are part of the white working class.

As it turned out, this would become one of the most decisive groups of voters in the election. In November, researchers returned to this group to see how its members had voted and get a sense of why. They found that 64 percent of these voters had chosen Trump, while only 32 percent chose Clinton. While white, non-college-educated voters tend to prefer Republicans, Trump won them by a larger margin than any presidential candidate since 1980, according to the Pew Research Center.

Partisan identification strongly predicted how white, working-class people would vote. Self-described Republicans were 11 times more likely than their non-Republican peers to choose Trump. Researchers found that partisanship is most pronounced among the young: Among white working-class Americans under 30, 57 percent identified as Republican or Republican-leaning, compared to 29 percent who identified as Democratic or Democratic-leaning. By comparison, only slightly more than half of seniors 65 and over were Republicans or Republican-leaning, compared to over one-third who were Democrats or Democratic-leaning.

It may not be surprising that Republicans vote Republican. But the analysis also isolated a handful of other factors that drove white working-class voters—ones that defy post-election tropes.

Controlling for other demographic variables, three factors stood out as strong independent predictors of how white working-class people would vote. The first was anxiety about cultural change. Sixty-eight percent of white working-class voters said the American way of life needs to be protected from foreign influence. And nearly half agreed with the statement, “things have changed so much that I often feel like a stranger in my own country.” Together, these variables were strong indictors of support for Trump: 79 percent of white working-class voters who had these anxieties chose Trump, while only 43 percent of white working-class voters who did not share one or both of these fears cast their vote the same way.

The second factor was immigration. Contrary to popular narratives, only a small portion—just 27 percent—of white working-class voters said they favor a policy of identifying and deporting immigrants who are in the country illegally. Among the people who did share this belief, Trump was wildly popular: 87 percent of them supported the president in the 2016 election.

Finally, 54 percent of white working-class Americans said investing in college education is a risky gamble, including 61 percent of white working-class men. White working-class voters who held this belief were almost twice as likely as their peers to support Trump. “The enduring narrative of the American dream is that if you study and get a college education and work hard, you can get ahead,” said Robert P. Jones, the CEO of PRRI. “The survey shows that many white working-class Americans, especially men, no longer see that path available to them. … It is this sense of economic fatalism, more than just economic hardship, that was the decisive factor in support for Trump among white working-class voters.”

While the analysis pointed to some interesting patterns around economic status, more research is needed to confirm them. The findings contrast with much of the coverage of the election: People who said their finances are only in fair or poor shape were nearly twice as likely to support Clinton compared to those who feel more economically secure.

Although demographic factors like gender, age, geographic region, and religion weren’t statistically significant predictors of who voted for Trump, some of the other information gathered in the survey offers a portrait of how white working-class Americans feel about their status in the world. Nearly two-thirds of the white working class say American culture has gotten worse since the 1950s. Sixty-eight percent say the U.S. is in danger of losing its identity, and 62 percent say America’s growing number of immigrants threaten the country’s culture. More than half say discrimination against whites has become just as problematic as discrimination against minorities.

This analysis provides only a surface look at the concerns and anxieties of America’s white working class. Polling is a notoriously clumsy instrument for understanding people’s lives, and provides only a sketch of who they are. But it’s useful for debunking myths and narratives—particularly the ubiquitous idea that economic anxiety drove white working-class voters to support Trump. When these voters hear messages from their president, they’re listening with ears attuned to cultural change and anxiety about America’s multicultural future. It would be a mistake to use this insight to create yet another caricature of the Trump voter. But perhaps it will complicate the stereotypes about destitute factory landscapes and poor folks who had nowhere to turn but right.

 

[monarch64]

Monnie I am sorry you felt you had to dumb yourself down. I am glad I did not have that when I was a child. I was the smart nerd band geek who was made fun of because it. I can't imagine that all WWCs are like you describe though.

I can't imagine they all are, either. I grew up in a factory/farming town, which probably had a lot to do with it. Small town/rural/factory/farming + a healthy dose of religion = absolutely stifling for anyone who wanted to think outside that particular box. I bided my time and got the hell out the first chance I had.

I remember "dating" a guy when I moved back to Indiana who, when I told him I wouldn't be seeing him anymore, threw this lovely insult my way: "You're 31 and you don't even have kids!" In other words, I was flawed because I had not had a child by the time I was 25. Most people I grew up with started when they were 18-20 and their kids are in college now. Mine is 5.

The lessons I learned from being the odd person out (along with other classmates; I wasn't totally alone, of course) were invaluable. It all shaped who I am today and I appreciate that. I did go to my last high school reunion and I'll be damned if the same people didn't sit there and stare at me without speaking even though I smiled and waved. Between a number of them they had about 5 teeth left, so there's that.

 

[kenny]

I wouldn't go to a high school reunion for all the FCDs at Leibish.

 

[Matata]

Two cultural ideas I've wanted to see changed for a very long time:
1. That one's worth is defined by one's job. I don't care what you do for a living -- I value the work and the person who does it -- street sweeper, garbage collector, financier, stay-at-home-parent -- all serve a worthy and necessary purpose. All are difficult to do.
2. That the value of a college education rests solely in the ability to acquire a higher paying job. I see a college education as an opportunity to expand and develop and travel beyond barriers in the mind, the kind of barriers that are referenced in the articles linked above. It changes the way we think, hones our ability to think in different ways, and as a consequence can make us less fearful of, more adaptable to change, and gives us more control over our futures. And I believe that makes us better stewards of each other.

 

[jaaron]

It's really late here, and it's been a long day, so I hope I'm not meandering and muddled, but I wanted to respond to this. I heard this author interviewed a month or two ago on the BBC and thought what she had to say was interesting. Although it's not my background, I've spent a lot of time over the years travelling to and working in areas where the WWC demographic makes up a large part of the demographic, and I can see a lot of truth to what she says. Based on what people said to me, I didn't see so much anger as hopelessness. And I think it often came not so much from their own lives, but from the prospect of not being able to see their children and grandchildren's lives getting much better, which IMO, is a massive shift in one generation- my parents' generation almost automatically assumed that their children would surpass them in success. Now, definitions of success are probably something that need to be examined, so I guess for here I'd define it a quality of life issue--stable employment, know you can provide for yourself and have medical coverage--rather than a hugely material success issue, but in general, there was that expectation. And now, for the most part, it seems to be gone across large swathes of America. So I get the voting with the middle finger part, I just don't get the voting seemingly without your brain part. And I'm not trying to be insulting-- I just find it astoundingly clear that Trump and co are not, and never were, out to help the WWC population. I mean, yes, Trump's very existence enrages me, but I have ironclad healthcare (inasmuch as such a thing exists) and I'm probably going to end up with a big, fat tax cut, so to me, it looks more like a cutting off your nose to spite your face issue, which I find hard to understand from a group that I've generally though of as pragmatic and intelligent.

A couple other related, but slightly random, and hopefully not too incoherent thoughts.

I heard a podcast before the election that a place the dems go wrong is in believing that people want assurances of government provided social service nets to catch them if they fall, but that what people actually want is the assurance that they won't fall, that they will continue to be able to provide for themselves, and that the R's tend to get that messaging right, if not necessarily the policy, and that made a lot of sense to me.

Next incoherent thought - oldest child went to a small, prestigious east coast liberal arts college, and I would say there were not too many first generation university goers. Middle child is at an ivy and I believe nearly 20% of the student body is first generation, which I think is interesting.

Third incoherent thought - I think the same divide played out in Brexit - This theory divides people into the UK into 'anywheres' and 'somewheres', which I think roughly correlates.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/03/anywheres-vs-somewheres-split-made-brexit-inevitable

Ok, off to bed.

 

[bunnycat]

As someone who grew up and was socialized with WWC people/kids, I can say I have zero sympathy for their "plight." The hypocrisy and *******ry is rampant. Anyone different is a threat and is dealt with accordingly. Black people? Nope, and if you are you are beaten and nearly killed in the middle of the night for daring to live anywhere near whites.

I spent a lot of time dumbing myself down in high school. I have had several former classmates tell me "I had no idea how intelligent you are!" Because if you were smart, you made sure you didn't appear smart or "know-it-all" or use "fifty cent" words. Those who excelled or stood out from the crowd were only revered if they did so in sports or beauty pageants.

I never, not once, made fun of someone or mocked them for being obtuse, simple, ill-mannered, or unsophistocated. Never. But you better believe I was made fun of and bullied from day 1 when I wore nice clothing to school or showed any sort of different behavior that wasn't like everyone else's. Therefore articles like this only reinforce my experience and opinion--that haters gonna hate and there is no excuse for it, and nothing will ever change. The WWC aren't victims, they're the bullies.

Essentially the same here. I was bullied all through grade school, middle school and by high school I was mostly part of the artistic "fringe" crowd.

I still get extremely pissed when read these articles whereupon a certain set of people rest on their perceived moral superiority and feel their American experience is somehow more authentic than someone who has an education. Mine is not any better or more authentic than yours, nor is yours more than mine. Thats just people looking for an excuse to hate someone.

 

[redwood66]

It's really late here, and it's been a long day, so I hope I'm not meandering and muddled, but I wanted to respond to this. I heard this author interviewed a month or two ago on the BBC and thought what she had to say was interesting. Although it's not my background, I've spent a lot of time over the years travelling to and working in areas where the WWC demographic makes up a large part of the demographic, and I can see a lot of truth to what she says. Based on what people said to me, I didn't see so much anger as hopelessness. And I think it often came not so much from their own lives, but from the prospect of not being able to see their children and grandchildren's lives getting much better, which IMO, is a massive shift in one generation- my parents' generation almost automatically assumed that their children would surpass them in success. Now, definitions of success are probably something that need to be examined, so I guess for here I'd define it a quality of life issue--stable employment, know you can provide for yourself and have medical coverage--rather than a hugely material success issue, but in general, there was that expectation. And now, for the most part, it seems to be gone across large swathes of America. So I get the voting with the middle finger part, I just don't get the voting seemingly without your brain part. And I'm not trying to be insulting-- I just find it astoundingly clear that Trump and co are not, and never were, out to help the WWC population. I mean, yes, Trump's very existence enrages me, but I have ironclad healthcare (inasmuch as such a thing exists) and I'm probably going to end up with a big, fat tax cut, so to me, it looks more like a cutting off your nose to spite your face issue, which I find hard to understand from a group that I've generally though of as pragmatic and intelligent.

A couple other related, but slightly random, and hopefully not too incoherent thoughts.

I heard a podcast before the election that a place the dems go wrong is in believing that people want assurances of government provided social service nets to catch them if they fall, but that what people actually want is the assurance that they won't fall, that they will continue to be able to provide for themselves, and that the R's tend to get that messaging right, if not necessarily the policy, and that made a lot of sense to me.

Next incoherent thought - oldest child went to a small, prestigious east coast liberal arts college, and I would say there were not too many first generation university goers. Middle child is at an ivy and I believe nearly 20% of the student body is first generation, which I think is interesting.

Third incoherent thought - I think the same divide played out in Brexit - This theory divides people into the UK into 'anywheres' and 'somewheres', which I think roughly correlates.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/03/anywheres-vs-somewheres-split-made-brexit-inevitable

Ok, off to bed.

Thank you for your thoughts and I agree with much of what you say. But if you combine the thought that these people do not want or expect help from the government with the fact that dems provide social service nets and Clinton was a terrible messenger then the "voting with the brain" comes in second to the finger for many of them. It was more of a "you haven't been listening" vote. I thought the article was more accurate than the ones talking about the economics issue. Off to read your link. Thanks.

I agree with Matata that people should not be judged or worth decided by what they do. I have been viciously attacked on this forum for that very thing combined with opposing viewpoints.

Edit - Just because people think the WWC's feelings are not valid does not negate those feelings. If they are not addressed, whether you like them or not, they will fester with continued or increased derision. The electoral college still makes the call.

 

[redwood66]

TC thanks for posting that article.

 

[jaaron]

Thank you for your thoughts and I agree with much of what you say. But if you combine the thought that these people do not want or expect help from the government with the fact that dems provide social service nets and Clinton was a terrible messenger then the "voting with the brain" comes in second to the finger for many of them. It was more of a "you haven't been listening" vote. I thought the article was more accurate than the ones talking about the economics issue. Off to read your link. Thanks.

I agree with Matata that people should not be judged or worth decided by what they do. I have been viciously attacked on this forum for that very thing combined with opposing viewpoints.

Edit - Just because people think the WWC's feelings are not valid does not negate those feelings. If they are not addressed, whether you like them or not, they will fester with continued or increased derision. The electoral college still makes the call.

I agree with both the bolded things above, and also with your assessment that it was a 'you haven't been listening' vote for a lot of people--for some it was about other things, I think, fear, the inclination to believe disinformation, and a whole bunch of -isms. I do think there are some people like you, Red, who have a political philosophy (although I can't remember if you voted for him), but there are an awful lot for whom this vote was less about that than that it was a reaction. I do believe you genuinely believe that government is wasteful (it is) and that its role is not to provide those services. But I also believe a lot of Trump voters haven't really parsed that out and it was all about how he made them feel, which isn't a great way to vote.

And I will also admit, that even while I do understand a lot of the issues, I have some real frustration because I think an awful lot is semantics. It's all well and good to say you don't believe in government safety nets, but it turns out that an awful lot of people who thought Obamacare was the work of the devil do, in fact, want the government to provide affordable health care. And to me, reviving dead or dying industries in economically distressed areas for no reason other than as a sop to voters (and in this case to line your cronies' pockets) is a government social net. It's just one wrapped up in different optics. And, IMO, a stupid one - there are usually reasons (other than outsourcing) that these industries are dead or dying, and it doesn't do much to help these areas remain economically viable for future generations.

Thanks for that article, TC- interesting.

 

[redwood66]

There are probably many reasons why people voted for Trump. No I did not vote for him. By the same token people voted for Clinton because of the way she made them feel or party line. Did Trump say many things that some people only wish they could say? I am sure. Do I think he acts appropriately for a president? No, which is why I could not bring myself to vote for him.

I have never said I don't believe in safety nets. But I have said they should be only for the truly poor and unable multiple times. Healthcare is not a safety net, it is a gigantic entitlement that I do not trust the government to run effectively or efficiently.

As far as reviving dying industries that is not the job of the government but it is also not their job to put in place industry crippling regulations as a means to kill them either. Industry should stand on its own following regulations that are meaningful and not guided by an agenda. They should not be bailed out by the government.

 

[Karl_K]

I think these articles are very funny.
Hillary lost because she did not get out the vote.
If she had got the same votes Obama did she would have won.
As a member of the so called wwc that the elitists of both parties have looked look down on for decades I can tell you that they have been giving them the finger for decades. It is nothing new.
But then again what do I know I'm just a white trash, busted up computer/diamond geek.

 

[redwood66]

I think these articles are very funny.
Hillary lost because she did not get out the vote.
If she had got the same votes Obama did she would have won.
As a member of the so called wwc that the elitists of both parties have looked look down on for decades I can tell you that they have been giving them the finger for decades. It is nothing new.
But then again what do I know I'm just a white trash, busted up computer/diamond geek.

Karl I think all of these articles are an attempt to justify Trump being president. Many of the people discussed in the article probably don't like Republicans much either. I know I sure don't because most of them are not true conservatives.

 

[House Cat]

Donald won because Hillary was the worst possible candidate for the Democratic Party.

Screw the DNC.
~~~~~~

Monnie,

It's interesting, I found that our childhoods had a lot of parallels. The only difference is that I grew up in an area that was mostly black and Latino.

I think that small mindedness and defensiveness comes from being poor.

Don't get me wrong, there are many other different issues that each demographic faces, but maybe the issue of hating someone different is universal to living in deprivation and fear.

 

[Tekate]

As a proud daughter of a democrat, white midde class (blue collar) man I can say unequivcably that I have no sympathy for them. The reason? my mother, my mother told my sister and I (and my brothers) that we had to go to college and to be more than what my parents were, I believed her, as I wasn't dumb, and I don't think I dumbed my self down in high school, I just didn't work at school work till college. I become a member of a union at 16 when I got my first 'real' job as a cashier in a grocery store before going to college. What I saw in my blue collar town that was changing over to a bedroom community of NYC at the time was those who got on the train to the city had better houses, better cars, more money, their kids dressed better and I liked all of that.. my mother spent lots of time telling my sister and I to get out of 'town' and do something with our lives.. The one thing I can say that truly made a difference in my life as a blue collar man's daughter was my mother felt that 'going to a better school than public school' was important so my sister and I both went to different catholic high schools, there I came to meet engineers, lawyers, doctors, insurance people, business owners daughters and sons.. that was the game changer for me.. I got out of my little town, if I had gone to the local school? dunno where I would be, so to me the most important thing I learned from my mother was education was very important, you are known by the company you keep, keep your head up high, and get out of town.. what happened to the locals who stayed there? most married the local guy and became locals...

Also what get's me is that democrats and liberals have ALWAYS tried to hep the middle class and lower class, they advise taxing the rich more, lowering taxes on he midde class, assisting the poor and for some reason, these middle class voters cast their vote for the party of no, the party that favors the rich.. I guess it was more important to vote against snooty Hillary than it was to vote for the party that would try to assist them.. No sympathy for them.. none at all.

I thought this was an interesting take on the white working class and I may have to read the book that is referenced. While I am not exactly in the WWC category described, I do understand it. I value college and upward mobility for my family. Bettering oneself was ingrained in me which I passed to my kids. I do understand the part about not wanting to leave a comfortable town where pace is slow and everyone knows everyone else, greeting each other with a smile. And I do feel some of the condescension from those considered elites, it is slightly irritating that someone could possibly think they are better than me just because they have X, Y, Z. I have been in situations that feel like the bottom (they probably were) but never felt like it would not get any better someday.

http://nypost.com/2017/05/13/why-working-class-america-voted-with-their-middle-finger/

 

[Tekate]

And Red, I have read several of these type articles and it's great you bring them to the attention of us all. Appreciate it.

I thought this was an interesting take on the white working class and I may have to read the book that is referenced. While I am not exactly in the WWC category described, I do understand it. I value college and upward mobility for my family. Bettering oneself was ingrained in me which I passed to my kids. I do understand the part about not wanting to leave a comfortable town where pace is slow and everyone knows everyone else, greeting each other with a smile. And I do feel some of the condescension from those considered elites, it is slightly irritating that someone could possibly think they are better than me just because they have X, Y, Z. I have been in situations that feel like the bottom (they probably were) but never felt like it would not get any better someday.

http://nypost.com/2017/05/13/why-working-class-america-voted-with-their-middle-finger/

 

[redwood66]

Kate I don't think you got the gist of what was said. I read it as they don't want your sympathy or assistance. You presume to know what is best for them which is a big no no. The biggest irritation for me from a Republican candidate was when McCain said during his campaign that voters did not know what they needed and he knows what's best for them. He is a hack that needs to retire.

What is wrong with marrying the local guy and staying local if you are happy or content? I agree with the thought that one should not complain about their station if they do nothing to improve it. That goes across all party lines and economic situations.

excerpt -

Even when they qualify for aid, they sometimes make a point of rejecting it: “I don’t want a government handout,” they say. “I can do this on my own.” Accepting welfare is seen as a character flaw and leads to a serious loss of social standing in the community, according to a study of rural voters in California. Without such standing, you don’t get considered when there’s a job opening.

Bill Clinton understood this kind of thinking, which is why he signed welfare reform in 1996, when he carried such states as West Virginia, Kentucky, Arkansas, Tennessee, Missouri and Louisiana. No Democratic presidential candidate since has won any of those states, and they’re no longer even trying.

Bill famously advised his wife’s campaign to do more to reach out to the WWC, but in what will surely be recalled as one of the defining moments of hubris on Team Hillary, campaign manager Robby Mook replied, “the data run counter to your anecdotes.”

 

[redwood66]

And Red, I have read several of these type articles and it's great you bring them to the attention of us all. Appreciate it.

Just trying to keep it fair and balanced.

 

[jaaron]

As a proud daughter of a democrat, white midde class (blue collar) man I can say unequivcably that I have no sympathy for them. The reason? my mother, my mother told my sister and I (and my brothers) that we had to go to college and to be more than what my parents were, I believed her, as I wasn't dumb, and I don't think I dumbed my self down in high school, I just didn't work at school work till college. I become a member of a union at 16 when I got my first 'real' job as a cashier in a grocery store before going to college. What I saw in my blue collar town that was changing over to a bedroom community of NYC at the time was those who got on the train to the city had better houses, better cars, more money, their kids dressed better and I liked all of that.. my mother spent lots of time telling my sister and I to get out of 'town' and do something with our lives.. The one thing I can say that truly made a difference in my life as a blue collar man's daughter was my mother felt that 'going to a better school than public school' was important so my sister and I both went to different catholic high schools, there I came to meet engineers, lawyers, doctors, insurance people, business owners daughters and sons.. that was the game changer for me.. I got out of my little town, if I had gone to the local school? dunno where I would be, so to me the most important thing I learned from my mother was education was very important, you are known by the company you keep, keep your head up high, and get out of town.. what happened to the locals who stayed there? most married the local guy and became locals...

Also what get's me is that democrats and liberals have ALWAYS tried to hep the middle class and lower class, they advise taxing the rich more, lowering taxes on he midde class, assisting the poor and for some reason, these middle class voters cast their vote for the party of no, the party that favors the rich.. I guess it was more important to vote against snooty Hillary than it was to vote for the party that would try to assist them.. No sympathy for them.. none at all.

Sorry- posting on the fly. Kate, I'm not sure how old you are, but I'm guessing we're within 5 years of each other, and that, I think is part of the point-- we're from a generation whose parents could felt they lived in a world where they not only could, but in large part expected to have, that dream/goal for their children. In a lot of the country, for a lot of the WWC, that vision of educational, employment and social mobility feels so far out of reach, it doesn't even seem like an attainable goal.

Did anyone else see the article in WaPo about the working class and dental care? When the divide is that stark, it's easy to see why/how people are angry with the status quo. I still don't know how they brought themselves to vote for that whining, tweeting, orange, mentally impaired traitor, though.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/na...ful-truth-about-teeth/?utm_term=.dc50a09193e8

 

[partgypsy]

I think it is an interesting article. My sister dropped out of (2 colleges) has struggled financially all her life. She is smart, but fits some of the wwc stereotypes. She's kind of angry. She is anti welfare, won't accept food stamps. Didn't sign up for healthcare, even though she needs it and now has medical bills (she just refuses to pay). She wants to both stay in the town my Mom lives in, but work a part time job (she can't afford to live there). So she is angry about a whole bunch of unrelated things, as a way of thinking that other people somehow had it easier than her.
It is very perplexing. It is a false pride, a kind of entitlement mentality, in a weird way, because she wants the world to fit the expectations SHE has of the world, rather than accept the world as it is and succeed in that context.

 

[Tekate]

Hello Jaaron I am 64...
I visited my aunt in coal country PA and I saw despair.. it was so very sad Jaaron, I saw no hope. So I do understand how this all came about. What I don't understand is why these working, middle class voters vote against their own best interests. I know despair, I know poverty, I know working, I know a lot and a lot less to .... You have to be willing to move to better your life. I picked up and moved to NYC. I then moved to NC then Austin and now to Maine.. I left my sons in the south... but I had to do what was best for me.. and I also took advantage of every government program I was eligible for.. in my time that was a FHA loan in 1977 and Pell grants and work study program in college, I also had a strong desire for more, a lot more than my parents had, now that was personal and who I am... I can truly say that I have that dream for my sons, BUT I don't know if they will ever surpass what we have provided but they are trying.

So yes I agree these are different times for sure. My mother was very loud about my sister and getting out of a small town and doing more with our lives.

Peace!

Sorry- posting on the fly. Kate, I'm not sure how old you are, but I'm guessing we're within 5 years of each other, and that, I think is part of the point-- we're from a generation whose parents could felt they lived in a world where they not only could, but in large part expected to have, that dream/goal for their children. In a lot of the country, for a lot of the WWC, that vision of educational, employment and social mobility feels so far out of reach, it doesn't even seem like an attainable goal.

Did anyone else see the article in WaPo about the working class and dental care? When the divide is that stark, it's easy to see why/how people are angry with the status quo. I still don't know how they brought themselves to vote for that whining, tweeting, orange, mentally impaired traitor, though.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/na...ful-truth-about-teeth/?utm_term=.dc50a09193e8

 

[Tekate]

Well Red, they would be wrong, because I was one of them. So I know how to get above living in a small town, as a white woman, with my grandfather on one side of my house, my aunt and uncle across the street, my great aunt at the bottom of the hill and my grandmother on the other side of the hill.. I KNOW small town, I know being white and lower middle class. I know why I moved up and on in the class. I don't have sympathy for them, none, zero, nada, zilch. I want to help the middle class, the lower middle class and the poor, to lesser and great extent. I know that if I can get ahead anyone can. I was lazy in many ways.

What is wrong with marrying and staying local? for me that would have been a lot of things, it would have meant babies in my 20s, no IBM career, I would have experienced a lot less culture and different types of people, different foods, my mother wanted my sister and I out of the small town way of life because she felt it was stifling, that everyone knows your business and they do btw. My mother wanted opportunity for her kids, I don't think she would have cared if I eventually moved back to my hometown and married a local guy if I experienced more than just going to school going to the local college marrying a local guy, getting a job at the electric company or even White Plains.. but my mother wanted me to have the abiity to thrive and experience different things.. my mom was very frustrated in our little small town.. and it showed. So there is nothing wrong with being small town and staying small town if one feels that is what they want to do, but there is nothing wrong with going away to college and experiencing differences and different people. I am a lot less fearful of immigrants because I've spent much of my adut life with immigrants.

Kate I don't think you got the gist of what was said. I read it as they don't want your sympathy or assistance. You presume to know what is best for them which is a big no no. The biggest irritation for me from a Republican candidate was when McCain said during his campaign that voters did not know what they needed and he knows what's best for them. He is a hack that needs to retire.

What is wrong with marrying the local guy and staying local if you are happy or content? I agree with the thought that one should not complain about their station if they do nothing to improve it. That goes across all party lines and economic situations.

excerpt -

Even when they qualify for aid, they sometimes make a point of rejecting it: “I don’t want a government handout,” they say. “I can do this on my own.” Accepting welfare is seen as a character flaw and leads to a serious loss of social standing in the community, according to a study of rural voters in California. Without such standing, you don’t get considered when there’s a job opening.

Bill Clinton understood this kind of thinking, which is why he signed welfare reform in 1996, when he carried such states as West Virginia, Kentucky, Arkansas, Tennessee, Missouri and Louisiana. No Democratic presidential candidate since has won any of those states, and they’re no longer even trying.

Bill famously advised his wife’s campaign to do more to reach out to the WWC, but in what will surely be recalled as one of the defining moments of hubris on Team Hillary, campaign manager Robby Mook replied, “the data run counter to your anecdotes.”

 

[redwood66]

My question about marrying local and staying local was in response to what it seemed was your inference that to do that is bad or a mistake. Sure it wasn't right for you, but my question wasn't about your personal choice. Someone else might be perfectly happy with the husband who works at the electric company and a couple kids in their 20's. My point is that you cannot decide what is meaningful for someone else just because it is not what you would choose.

 

[E B]

This analysis provides only a surface look at the concerns and anxieties of America’s white working class. Polling is a notoriously clumsy instrument for understanding people’s lives, and provides only a sketch of who they are. But it’s useful for debunking myths and narratives—particularly the ubiquitous idea that economic anxiety drove white working-class voters to support Trump. When these voters hear messages from their president, they’re listening with ears attuned to cultural change and anxiety about America’s multicultural future. It would be a mistake to use this insight to create yet another caricature of the Trump voter. But perhaps it will complicate the stereotypes about destitute factory landscapes and poor folks who had nowhere to turn but right.

Bingo, t-c. It wasn't as highlighted because it wasn't as palatable, but I think a lot of people saw through it anyway. It just didn't fit-- here was a man who stiffed his own contractors left and right, had a long history of stepping on those 'below' him and yet he was going to be the WWC's saving grace? It makes much more sense when you plug in that the cultural anxiety was the driving factor for many.

I've always thought the idea that liberals exist in a 'bubble' to be odd, because if anything, it's the opposite: the parts of the country that vote democrat are generally more diverse by almost every measure compared to the more homogeneous, rural, self-described 'real' america. I saw an interesting argument recently for why the cultural anxiety hurdle for attracting Trump voters may not be worth scaling: much of his base finds 'liberal culture' offensive and no amount of promising to ease economic anxiety (it not being the main concern as it is) will change that without compromising a large part of our bedrock- fighting for equality.

 

[partgypsy]

My question about marrying local and staying local was in response to what it seemed was your inference that to do that is bad or a mistake. Sure it wasn't right for you, but my question wasn't about your personal choice. Someone else might be perfectly happy with the husband who works at the electric company and a couple kids in their 20's. My point is that you cannot decide what is meaningful for someone else just because it is not what you would choose.

I honestly don't think most "liberals" judge or look down at other people, rather have a live and let live attitude. Just like most people are too self-absorbed about their own lives to really delve or think about how other people live. It's just the truth. I think one needs to make a distinction between a) "liberals" (aka the majority of people both in and outside this nation) not respecting Trump, and b) not understanding why people voted for Trump and continue to support him. As far as liberals "looking down" at small town folks, Republican and conservative candidates seem to bring this up, possibly to prey on deep seated insecurities? Creating a false divide when honestly most people may be closer in quality how they want their governments to run (efficiently, less drama and blockades, being able to negotiate across aisles), just not in degree?
At least what I can see on the "internets" the hostility of people who voted for Trump against people "not like them" is far higher than the reverse direction.

 

[redwood66]

I honestly don't think most "liberals" judge or look down at other people, rather have a live and let live attitude. Just like most people are too self-absorbed about their own lives to really delve or think about how other people live. It's just the truth. I think one needs to make a distinction between a) "liberals" (aka the majority of people both in and outside this nation) not respecting Trump, and b) not understanding why people voted for Trump and continue to support him. As far as liberals "looking down" at small town folks, Republican and conservative candidates seem to bring this up, possibly to prey on deep seated insecurities? Creating a false divide when honestly most people may be closer in quality how they want their governments to run (efficiently, less drama and blockades, being able to negotiate across aisles), just not in degree?
At least what I can see on the "internets" the hostility of people who voted for Trump against people "not like them" is far higher than the reverse direction.

I really don't mean to be disrespectful but I had to giggle at this wondering if you have been reading some of the threads here in the past 6 months. Or opinion articles about Trump voters that are written by left leaning individuals. The divide is not false and definitely not the work of one side only. I will agree that there are many irate people on the internet who are lashing out at liberals for sure but it is equal on the other side as well.

I wish there could be some across the aisle reaching but the sides are so entrenched by their own choice that it appears impossible.

 

[partgypsy]

I really don't mean to be disrespectful but I had to giggle at this wondering if you have been reading some of the threads here in the past 6 months. Or opinion articles about Trump voters that are written by left leaning individuals. The divide is not false and definitely not the work of one side only. I will agree that there are many irate people on the internet who are lashing out at liberals for sure but it is equal on the other side as well.

I wish there could be some across the aisle reaching but the sides are so entrenched by their own choice that it appears impossible.

I guess we have to respectfully disagree on that. For one, I do not see criticism of Trump as bashing people who support Trump. I honestly think he is an awful president. And as far as hatred goes, one can even look how the respective candidates catered to their base, at political rallies, the tone set.
For one, I think one has to distinguish between criticism that is fact-based, versus criticism that is emotion or pejorative-based (calling people names). They are not equivelant! Compare apples to apples, oranges to oranges. Unfortunately Trump supporters seem to be mirroring Trump's behavior in making personal attacks on people who disagree with him on principles. Redwood I don't think you do it, nor do all conservatives do it.

 

[redwood66]

I guess we have to respectfully disagree on that. For one, I do not see criticism of Trump as bashing people who support Trump. I honestly think he is an awful president. And as far as hatred goes, one can even look how the respective candidates catered to their base, at political rallies, the tone set.
For one, I think one has to distinguish between criticism that is fact-based, versus criticism that is emotion or pejorative-based (calling people names). They are not equivelant! Compare apples to apples, oranges to oranges. Unfortunately Trump supporters seem to be mirroring Trump's behavior in making personal attacks on people who disagree with him on principles. Redwood I don't think you do it, nor do all conservatives do it.

I thank you for that. But the word stupid and trump voter are liberally used together here. As are head in the sand, how can they keep doing that, how dumb do you have to be, etc.

You have never heard me say any of those things about a Clinton or Sanders voter.