Arizona Shooting

[iheartscience]

It hurts me to hear about things like this. So tragic....

Just reinforces my decision to have my concealed weapons permit and to carry!!!

It is sooo tragic but it reinforces my feeling we need FEWER guns, better yet, NO guns in the hands of civilians.

Problem is, bad guys will always find a way, because they don't care about the law. I LOVE the 2nd amendment!!!!

1. This "bad guy" purchased a gun legally.

2. You must have missed my question. What would you have done if you had been there with a concealed weapon? Do you really think you would have had the presence of mind to pull out your own gun, accurately aim, and take the gunman out? Your love of the 2nd amendment doesn't seem relevant in this discussion.

And for the record, I'm not blaming lax gun laws, although AZ does have some of the most lax gun laws in the country. I blame the overheated violent rhetoric by idiots like Sarah Palin that disturbed people latch onto.

 

[Ella]

Please remember that political discussions are not allowed on PS because of the fights they cause.

Stay on topic.

 

[Tuckins1]

It hurts me to hear about things like this. So tragic....

Just reinforces my decision to have my concealed weapons permit and to carry!!!

I'm not following the logic here. Would you have heroically pulled out your gun and shot the shooter before he could squeeze off more than one round?

Perhaps. Depends on the situation and if I could do so safely. I certainly would have if I were close enough.

 

[Tuckins1]

It hurts me to hear about things like this. So tragic....

Just reinforces my decision to have my concealed weapons permit and to carry!!!

It is sooo tragic but it reinforces my feeling we need FEWER guns, better yet, NO guns in the hands of civilians.

That would take the guns away from us law-abiding citizens and make life easy for the criminals. You know they're not going to turn in their guns. I'm with Tuckins on having my own gun and permit. That doesn't mean I could have saved my Congresswoman yesterday, but had I been right there, there's always a chance I could have stopped the murderer from shooting as many as he did. I like to think I would have had the courage to try.

Here here!

 

[Tuckins1]

It hurts me to hear about things like this. So tragic....

Just reinforces my decision to have my concealed weapons permit and to carry!!!

It is sooo tragic but it reinforces my feeling we need FEWER guns, better yet, NO guns in the hands of civilians.

Problem is, bad guys will always find a way, because they don't care about the law. I LOVE the 2nd amendment!!!!

1. This "bad guy" purchased a gun legally.

2. You must have missed my question. What would you have done if you had been there with a concealed weapon? Do you really think you would have had the presence of mind to pull out your own gun, accurately aim, and take the gunman out? Your love of the 2nd amendment doesn't seem relevant in this discussion.

And for the record, I'm not blaming lax gun laws, although AZ does have some of the most lax gun laws in the country. I blame the overheated violent rhetoric by idiots like Sarah Palin that disturbed people latch onto.

Sorry, missed this. My love of the 2nd amend. is absolutely relevant. My comment about bad guys was directed toward Kenny, who feels that no one should be able to purchase/carry a weapon. Laws don't stop bad guys from being bad.

FYI- I detest Sarah Palin.

 

[zhuzhu]

I don't think people owning guns can effectively help a chaotic situation like this case.

Imagine this, you saw the boy shooting at the speaker, standing amongst 15-20 people in the approximate circle. The people around him scream and run around spreading out in different directions, you pull out your gun and fire AT the shooter, while 3-5 more people who also have guns (hypothetically) also aim at the shooter and try to stop the killer. All the sudden there are up to 7 individuals all having a gun in their hand and most of them don't know for sure who the REAL shooter is because they only heard the gun shot but did not see it. Now everyone with gun just aims at whoever has gun and stands close to the original shooter position.

The authority came, and they have no idea who the ORIGINAL shooter really is, and in the chaos and random firing, the original shooter got away.

Or, everyone starts to shoot at whoever they THINK is the shooter based on his/her having a gun in hand, and multiple innocent people who tried to "protect the others" get shot.

WHAT A MESS!!!

 

[KimberlyH]

The judge was not there for the event, he was grocery shopping in the center where it was held, saw an aide of Congresswoman's that he knew and went over to say hello.

The 9 year old was just elected to student council. Her neighbors brought her along as she'd shown interest in the workings of gov't.

It's sick and sad, the damage this man has done to his community and the rest of this country. As the bullet went straight through Congresswoman Gibbons (sp) brain, who knows what long term effects this will have on her.

Wishing peace to all those who mourn.

 

[iheartscience]

I don't think people owning guns can effectively help a chaotic situation like this case.

Imagine this, you saw the boy shooting at the speaker, standing amongst 15-20 people in the approximate circle. The people around him scream and run around spreading out in different directions, you pull out your gun and fire AT the shooter, while 3-5 more people who also have guns (hypothetically) also aim at the shooter and try to stop the killer. All the sudden there are up to 7 individuals all having a gun in their hand and most of them don't know for sure who the REAL shooter is because they only heard the gun shot but did not see it. Now everyone with gun just aims at whoever has gun and stands close to the original shooter position.

The authority came, and they have no idea who the ORIGINAL shooter really is, and in the chaos and random firing, the original shooter got away.

Or, everyone starts to shoot at whoever they THINK is the shooter based on his/her having a gun in hand, and multiple innocent people who tried to "protect the others" get shot.

WHAT A MESS!!!

Great point, zhuzhu. I don't understand why, whenever there's a horrific shooting, people (not just Tuckins) feel compelled to point out that "This is why we should all carry concealed weapons everywhere!" (Including being able to carry guns in BARS-yep, that law just passed in VA.) Yes, more guns will fix everything!

And I'm far from anti-gun-I grew up in a rural area with a lot of hunters (including my father, who just got a buck last month), I was always around guns, my grandfather and great-grandfather were gunsmiths, and I can actually shoot very well myself. But more people with guns=more crazy people with guns-it's just a statistical reality. So yeah-more guns isn't the answer to tragedies like this.

 

[coffeetown]

I

I long for the past, when you never discussed politics, when the media didn't use it as a ratings draw, and when you didn't know your neighbor's, friend's or business associate's leanings. I think it's time to close the door on politics and leave it where it belongs; in the privacy of the voting booth.

I don't mean to be offensive at all and I really hope that you don't take it in a wrong way, but what years are you longing for? our country was founded by way of a tumultuous revolution, displacement of native people, and slavery. Political violence and assassination have plagued every aspect of our history for nearly every decade.

I also don't think that it's very healthy not to discuss political views with individuals within your community... I mean how else do we actually create a community? just by talking about materialistic issues? There's a difference between the fear tactics that people use to express themselves these days and actual civil discourse.

I worked for a US Senator for nearly 4 years, and never found myself having an argument with individuals who had different ways. In my own family we have moderates, republicans, democrats, libertarians, and leftists. We have always enjoyed lively discussions and are able to have these discussions without feeling alienated from one another. In fact I would argue that it's this very important discourse that's lead our country to become one of the most free in the world. This discourse forces us not to remain complacent, and to always push ahead, finding new ways to develop and enhance our democratic process.

I think the main problem these days is the opposite of what you say. It's not that we talk about politics too much, it's the fact that we don't actually talk to one another about it without allowing it to become personal. We also allow certain media outlets to dictate the conversation and make up our mind for us. I think we should be discussing political discussions with those who make up our community,

I believe that politics, specifically our personal politics, insinuate themselves into our everyday lives regardless of if we would like them to or not. From the food your buy, the diamonds you wear, the places you shop, the schooling that our children get, the medication we take, etc. etc. it's ALL political. You can't separate it from your everyday life.

I know that I am going off on a tangent, but I think that the problem in our society is the fact that most of us don't become engaged unless it's for an election... and many of us don't even bother w/ that. During the last election cycle, more people voted for American Idol than during the primary election. We think that just by voting many of our civic problems will go away, some of are simply cynical towards the political process and have given up and choose to disconnect from civic life, go shopping, and live our lives. What good can come of that? Have you ever heard of the "The Social Contract" by Jean-Jacques Rousseau?? I encourage you to look into it, because you are taking part in it whether you like it or not and that comes at a cost/responsibility: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Social_Contract

Again I fully apologize for going on a tangent, but many of the people I work with have been up all night covering this story and this exact discussion came up a few hours ago and so it was on my mind. I wont post or mention it again.

*getting off of my soapbox now*

 

[coffeetown]

By the way the young 9-year old girl who was shot dead yesterday at Representative Giffords event, was named Christina Taylor Green. She was born on the tragic day of 9/11 and was featured in a book “Faces of Hope: Babies Born on 9/11." She was recently elected as her schools student government President, she was every interested in politics and had asked to be taken to Rep. Gifford's event so that she could meet a real politician. She dreamed of attending U Penn, she loved sports and was the only girl on her schools baseball team.

I'm really having trouble processing that a 9-year-old child has died in an act of political violence.

 

[beebrisk]

I'm really having trouble processing that a 9-year-old child has died in an act of political violence.

This was NOT an act of political violence. There's not a shred of evidence that this lunatic had an axe to grind with Giffords or anyone else in that crowd. This was a lone, random act of horrible violence that ended in tragedy for many families. And when I hear the blame land on Sarah Palin, Glen Beck or anyone else but the shooter, my blood boils. It's irresponsible to suggest so and it's a flat-out lie.

That poor child is gone because a 22 year old decided he was going to kill people. Not because Sarah Palin "targeted" politicians who are pro-health care bill. Please let's not cheapen the memory of these victims by politicizing the "motive" of the shooter and being dishonest about it.

And while we're on the subject of "inciting violence", how bout these little ditties:

"If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun" -Barack Obama, 2008
"Americans (who are against the extension of the Bush tax cuts) should take up pitchforks" Claire McCaskill, D-MO, 2010

 

[iheartscience]

I

I long for the past, when you never discussed politics, when the media didn't use it as a ratings draw, and when you didn't know your neighbor's, friend's or business associate's leanings. I think it's time to close the door on politics and leave it where it belongs; in the privacy of the voting booth.

I don't mean to be offensive at all and I really hope that you don't take it in a wrong way, but what years are you longing for? our country was founded by way of a tumultuous revolution, displacement of native people, and slavery. Political violence and assassination have plagued every aspect of our history for nearly every decade.

I also don't think that it's very healthy not to discuss political views with individuals within your community... I mean how else do we actually create a community? just by talking about materialistic issues? There's a difference between the fear tactics that people use to express themselves these days and actual civil discourse.

I worked for a US Senator for nearly 4 years, and never found myself having an argument with individuals who had different ways. In my own family we have moderates, republicans, democrats, libertarians, and leftists. We have always enjoyed lively discussions and are able to have these discussions without feeling alienated from one another. In fact I would argue that it's this very important discourse that's lead our country to become one of the most free in the world. This discourse forces us not to remain complacent, and to always push ahead, finding new ways to develop and enhance our democratic process.

I think the main problem these days is the opposite of what you say. It's not that we talk about politics too much, it's the fact that we don't actually talk to one another about it without allowing it to become personal. We also allow certain media outlets to dictate the conversation and make up our mind for us. I think we should be discussing political discussions with those who make up our community,

I believe that politics, specifically our personal politics, insinuate themselves into our everyday lives regardless of if we would like them to or not. From the food your buy, the diamonds you wear, the places you shop, the schooling that our children get, the medication we take, etc. etc. it's ALL political. You can't separate it from your everyday life.

I know that I am going off on a tangent, but I think that the problem in our society is the fact that most of us don't become engaged unless it's for an election... and many of us don't even bother w/ that. During the last election cycle, more people voted for American Idol than during the primary election. We think that just by voting many of our civic problems will go away, some of are simply cynical towards the political process and have given up and choose to disconnect from civic life, go shopping, and live our lives. What good can come of that? Have you ever heard of the "The Social Contract" by Jean-Jacques Rousseau?? I encourage you to look into it, because you are taking part in it whether you like it or not and that comes at a cost/responsibility: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Social_Contract

Again I fully apologize for going on a tangent, but many of the people I work with have been up all night covering this story and this exact discussion came up a few hours ago and so it was on my mind. I wont post or mention it again.

*getting off of my soapbox now*

Great post, coffeetown-I agree with everything you said. Feel free to get on that soapbox anytime you want.

 

[iheartscience]

I'm really having trouble processing that a 9-year-old child has died in an act of political violence.

This was NOT an act of political violence. There's not a shred of evidence that this lunatic had an axe to grind with Giffords or anyone else in that crowd. This was a lone, random act of horrible violence that ended in tragedy for many families. And when I hear the blame land on Sarah Palin, Glen Beck or anyone else but the shooter, my blood boils. It's irresponsible to suggest so and it's a flat-out lie.

That poor child is gone because a 22 year old decided he was going to kill people. Not because Sarah Palin "targeted" politicians who are pro-health care bill. Please let's not cheapen the memory of these victims by politicizing the "motive" of the shooter and being dishonest about it.

And while we're on the subject of "inciting violence", how bout these little ditties:

"If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun" -Barack Obama, 2008
"Americans (who are against the extension of the Bush tax cuts) should take up pitchforks" Claire McCaskill, D-MO, 2010

WRONG. Jared Lee Loughner had a letter from Giffords in a safe in his house in an envelope entitled "My Assassination." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/09/AR2011010901892.html?hpid=topnews

And if you really think that overheated rhetoric by the idiot parade of Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, et al. doesn't have anything to do with this assassination atempt, or the attempt by Byron Williams to shoot up the Tides foundation because Glenn Beck told him about it, you're delusional.

Edited to correct the name of the would-be Tides shooter.

 

[beebrisk]

And if you really think that overheated rhetoric by the idiot parade of Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, et al. doesn't have anything to do with this assassination atempt, or the attempt by John Hamilton to shoot up the TIDES foundation because Glenn Beck told him about it, you're delusional.

Well now, the personal attack took you about 30 seconds, Thing. Nice going. Reported for the "you're delusional" comment.

 

[iheartscience]

And if you really think that overheated rhetoric by the idiot parade of Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, et al. doesn't have anything to do with this assassination atempt, or the attempt by John Hamilton to shoot up the TIDES foundation because Glenn Beck told him about it, you're delusional.

Well now, the personal attack took you about 30 seconds, Thing. Nice going.

Way to ignore the fact that you're dead wrong!

 

[iheartscience]

And if you really think that overheated rhetoric by the idiot parade of Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, et al. doesn't have anything to do with this assassination atempt, or the attempt by John Hamilton to shoot up the TIDES foundation because Glenn Beck told him about it, you're delusional.

Well now, the personal attack took you about 30 seconds, Thing. Nice going. Reported for the "you're delusional" comment.

I guess words really can have an effect on people.

 

[beebrisk]

And if you really think that overheated rhetoric by the idiot parade of Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, et al. doesn't have anything to do with this assassination atempt, or the attempt by John Hamilton to shoot up the TIDES foundation because Glenn Beck told him about it, you're delusional.

Well now, the personal attack took you about 30 seconds, Thing. Nice going.

Way to ignore the fact that you're dead wrong!

A planned attack? Seemingly. Planned because of her political views? Like I said, not a shred of evidence. To suggest that is nothing but conjecture and speculation. But we don't rush to judgement, do we??

 

[iheartscience]

And if you really think that overheated rhetoric by the idiot parade of Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, et al. doesn't have anything to do with this assassination atempt, or the attempt by John Hamilton to shoot up the TIDES foundation because Glenn Beck told him about it, you're delusional.

Well now, the personal attack took you about 30 seconds, Thing. Nice going.

Way to ignore the fact that you're dead wrong!

A planned attack? Seemingly. Planned because of her political views? Like I said, not a shred of evidence. To suggest that is nothing but conjecture and speculation. But we don't rush to judgement, do we??

Actually, Loughner is suspected as being part of an anti-government, anti-immigration group called American Renaissance that is connected to a white supremacist group called New Century Foundation. And since Congresswoman Giffords was an opponent of Arizona's SB 1070 law, it doesn't seem like much of a stretch.

 

[beebrisk]

I guess words really can have an effect on people.

Nah. Some of us simply prefer the illusion of civility

 

[iheartscience]

I guess words really can have an effect on people.

Nah. Some of us simply prefer the illusion of civility

I know right? Someone should let Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck know about that concept.

 

[beebrisk]

[quote="thing2of2|

A planned attack? Seemingly. Planned because of her political views? Like I said, not a shred of evidence. To suggest that is nothing but conjecture and speculation. But we don't rush to judgement, do we??[/quote]

Actually, Loughner is suspected as being part of an anti-government, anti-immigration group called American Renaissance that is connected to a white supremacist group called New Century Foundation. And since Congresswoman Giffords was an opponent of Arizona's SB 1070 law, it doesn't seem like much of a stretch.[/quote]

"Suspected"? I suspect we know nothing of his motives right now. Fact is, Giffords is Jewish. The shooter lists Mein Kampf and The Communist Manifesto as his favorite tomes. Not exactly on the Conservative/Right Wing/Republican Top 10 Reading List. As far as I'm concerned, there's as much evidence right now that this was an act of Anti-Semitism as it is anything else. But because you and I know virtually nothing but what the media has told us of this crime, I'll let the investigation continue before I make that "stretch".

 

[beebrisk]

I guess words really can have an effect on people.

Nah. Some of us simply prefer the illusion of civility

I know right? Someone should let Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck know about that concept.

FYI: I'm no Palin fan but she must have something going for her to cause the left to become so unhinged. Their hysteria and unreasonable ranting and raving says volumes about how much clout this woman has. Sometimes influence is better revealed in the opposition it causes.

 

[Ella]

Enough. This is exactly why we do not allow political discussions on Pricescope.

This thread is now closed.