Arizona Shooting

[zhuzhu]

My heart is heavy with sorrow for the victims and their family and friends of today's tragic shooting. I pray that the lessons of this incidence are teaching us to be more tolerant of each others differences. May this country become more united and that we all get along in peace and in respect.

 

[Sha]

I'm so sad to hear about it too.... So awful. I can't stop thinking about that 9-year old girl who died....

 

[Kaleigh]

I am at a loss for words, this is so very sad.

 

[Imdanny]

What a tragic day in American history.

I still can't quite wrap my mind around it.

 

[Gypsy]

Just senseless. And a powerful reminder that there are people who feed on discord and terror everywhere, regardless of color, creed, or religion. So sad and disheartening.

 

[Andelain]

I'm over here just kind of in shock from it. I live in her district.

 

[zhuzhu]

I'm over here just kind of in shock from it. I live in her district.

Hugs Andelain,

It must feel awful to be feel "too close to home" for something this brutal and senseless. How are you and your neighbors reacting to the shooting? Is your neighborhood conducting gatherings in support of the survivors?

Zhu

 

[Andelain]

I'm over here just kind of in shock from it. I live in her district.

Hugs Andelain,

It must feel awful to be feel "too close to home" for something this brutal and senseless. How are you and your neighbors reacting to the shooting? Is your neighborhood conducting gatherings in support of the survivors?

Zhu

Over here's there's not much reaction. I have no idea what anyone back home is doing because I'm stationed in Iraq.

 

[ksinger]

I'm not surprised in the least and expect we'll see more of it soon. This isn't about tolerance vs intolerance, this is about fear, pure and simple. People are scared.

 

[Tuckins1]

It hurts me to hear about things like this. So tragic....

Just reinforces my decision to have my concealed weapons permit and to carry!!!

 

[iLander]

It is a horrible tragedy, and my heart goes out to the victims and their families.

As this story evolves, many are presenting the idea that partisan politics and anti-government rhetoric played a role. I think there were always crazies in our society, ready to use any excuse for their craziness. But I think politics has reached a new level of saturation in our society; at my DD's high school the political leanings of other students has become a topic of conversation and sometimes derision. I think this is ridiculous and OTT.

I long for the past, when you never discussed politics, when the media didn't use it as a ratings draw, and when you didn't know your neighbor's, friend's or business associate's leanings. I think it's time to close the door on politics and leave it where it belongs; in the privacy of the voting booth.

This from an article

"While the exact motivations of the suspect in the shootings remained unclear, an Internet site tied to the man, Jared Lee Loughner, contained antigovernment ramblings. And regardless of what led to the episode, it quickly focused attention on the degree to which inflammatory language, threats and implicit instigations to violence have become a steady undercurrent in the nation’s political culture.

Clarence W. Dupnik, the Pima County sheriff, seemed to capture the mood of the day at an evening news conference when he said it was time for the country to “do a little soul-searching.”

I for one, am going to do my small part to prevent future tragedies; next time I am at a party or in a conversation, and the talk turns political, (even of I agree with the views expressed) I am going to say "I don't discuss politics", and walk away. My personal effort is only a butterfly wing, but perhaps it will somehow be compounded.

 

[Loves Vintage]

First, I am deeply saddened and horrified by what happened. It is hard not to wonder how the tragedy could have been prevented. As details come out about the gunman, I think it will become apparent how this tragedy could have been avoided. Sources yesterday indicated the gunman suffered from severe mental illness.

I had the news on yesterday and wish I hadn't. I will forever remember the little girl. I do not know her name. I do not know the color of her hair. I never knew her, but I will never forget her. This is one of the reasons I mostly avoid the news. I simply cannot handle it and really cannot come to terms with the unfairness and randomness of life. She should have had the chance to live her life.

I do not intend to diminish the other lives lost. I've also given much thought to the federal judge whose life was taken. This judge and his family had received death threats after a ruling he made in a case brought by illegal immigrants. It is hard to believe that his murder was random. My heart goes out to his family and to the families of the other victims as well.

Ksinger, I hate to ask what I am sure will appear a naive question, but I will ask it anyway because I very much respect your opinion -- what is it that people are afraid of? As far as I can tell and I haven't watched the news or read anything further about this since yesterday afternoon, but as of yesterday, this was an act by a 22 yr old(1) suffering from a severe mental illness, (2) with access to a gun, and (3) who may or may not have been affected by various media sources.

I don't see how this was an act of fear, so I am curious what you mean?

 

[yennyfire]

What a tragic episode in American history. My heart goes out to all of the victims and their families. I will keep them in my thoughts and prayers.

 

[kenny]

It hurts me to hear about things like this. So tragic....

Just reinforces my decision to have my concealed weapons permit and to carry!!!

It is sooo tragic but it reinforces my feeling we need FEWER guns, better yet, NO guns in the hands of civilians.

 

[iheartscience]

I think this is a tragic example of why one probably shouldn't put out a map showing crosshairs over "targeted" politicians who need to be "removed from office." Don't retreat, reload, amirite, Sarah Palin?! And in case someone doesn't understand the reference, Sarah Palin's PAC put a map up on her PAC website (that has since been removed) just like that, and Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords was one of the politicians "targeted."

It shouldn't be a surprise, but vitriolic language actually does spur certain unstable people to act out in a violent way. However, I'm quite sure politicians like Palin, performing idiots like Glenn Beck, and others will refuse to take any responsibility for the part they've played in lowering political discourse to its current state.

My thoughts are with the families of those who were killed and those who are injured.

 

[iheartscience]

It hurts me to hear about things like this. So tragic....

Just reinforces my decision to have my concealed weapons permit and to carry!!!

I'm not following the logic here. Would you have heroically pulled out your gun and shot the shooter before he could squeeze off more than one round?

 

[ksinger]

First, I am deeply saddened and horrified by what happened. It is hard not to wonder how the tragedy could have been prevented. As details come out about the gunman, I think it will become apparent how this tragedy could have been avoided. Sources yesterday indicated the gunman suffered from severe mental illness.

I had the news on yesterday and wish I hadn't. I will forever remember the little girl. I do not know her name. I do not know the color of her hair. I never knew her, but I will never forget her. This is one of the reasons I mostly avoid the news. I simply cannot handle it and really cannot come to terms with the unfairness and randomness of life. She should have had the chance to live her life.

I do not intend to diminish the other lives lost. I've also given much thought to the federal judge whose life was taken. This judge and his family had received death threats after a ruling he made in a case brought by illegal immigrants. It is hard to believe that his murder was random. My heart goes out to his family and to the families of the other victims as well.

Ksinger, I hate to ask what I am sure will appear a naive question, but I will ask it anyway because I very much respect your opinion -- what is it that people are afraid of? As far as I can tell and I haven't watched the news or read anything further about this since yesterday afternoon, but as of yesterday, this was an act by a 22 yr old(1) suffering from a severe mental illness, (2) with access to a gun, and (3) who may or may not have been affected by various media sources.

I don't see how this was an act of fear, so I am curious what you mean?

Every person is an individual, with his own story, but I don't disconnect an act like this from the environment in which we live, or historical context. Big change is in the wind, and people are generally scared of big change, and at every period of intense change or social upheaval, in this country (the 1850's, 1880s - 90s, 1960s come immediately to mind), or any other, you see increases in violence.

We're also seeing a retreat into a nostalgia for some past that is perceived as being simpler and easier to deal with. More than a few people have begun looking backward, because even if they can't articulate it well, they sense that America's heyday may be over. America's place in the world, in the world pecking order is changing. Our view of ourselves is changing, and that level of inward looking and self-examination can be intensely uncomfortable, whether on a personal level or on a cultural level. The economy is the worst it's been since the Great Depression, and we may be looking at a level of structural unemployment going forward, that we've not any of us seen in our lifetime, or in many cases, our parents' lifetimes. The phrase "new normal" keeps creeping in. In spite of the official numbers, our actual unemployment in this country is firmly into the double digits and we are not even creating enough jobs for the new graduates coming out, let alone the laid off who are frequently languishing now for years, in spite of trying very hard to find jobs. They just aren't there. (On the other side of that, I have several newly-minted college graduate friends that are slamming into this wall right now. There just aren't jobs in the fields they got degrees in. One girl is working 2 piddly jobs and still can't pay her student loans at the level they want. Anxiety anyone?)

Everywhere you turn, look, tune in, there is a level of extreme and truly incendiary rhetoric stoking every fear and creating new ones. It is permeating the airwaves and the public discourse, and making it increasingly difficult to effect any compromise.

Add to that mix, people who are already perhaps on the edge and suffering, and something like this can happen. It is LIKELY to happen.

Perhaps this WILL turn out to be a random act disconnected from any discernible cause or influence in a larger context, but I don't think it is. You yourself doubt this killing of a federal judge and the attempted killing of a congresswoman is a truly random act. Your intuition is well-founded, because common sense and our own history tell us that the murders of public officials is very likely to NOT be random.

 

[y2kitty]

Really sad for the 9 year old girl who died and her family.

 

[Andelain]

It hurts me to hear about things like this. So tragic....

Just reinforces my decision to have my concealed weapons permit and to carry!!!

It is sooo tragic but it reinforces my feeling we need FEWER guns, better yet, NO guns in the hands of civilians.

That would take the guns away from us law-abiding citizens and make life easy for the criminals. You know they're not going to turn in their guns. I'm with Tuckins on having my own gun and permit. That doesn't mean I could have saved my Congresswoman yesterday, but had I been right there, there's always a chance I could have stopped the murderer from shooting as many as he did. I like to think I would have had the courage to try.

 

[kenny]

I like to think more of what's best for society, not best for me.

I suspect countries that do not allow civilian gun ownership and have lower crime than the USA.

 

[ksinger]

I like to think more of what's best for society, not best for me.

I suspect countries that do not allow civilian gun ownership and have lower crime than the USA.

So do totalitarian regimes.

ETA - focus on the tool always takes away from the focus on the PEOPLE doing the shooting. Let's focus on that instead.

 

[movie zombie]

[quote="kennyIt is sooo tragic but it reinforces my feeling we need FEWER guns, better yet, NO guns in the hands of civilians.[/quote]

while i agree it is tragic, i do NOT agree that civilians should not have guns. we do not know if this individual had legally obtained his weapon or not. it is also my understanding that the Representative owns a gun herself and supports the 2nd amendment.

i would think that the sheriff is right on target about intolerance and political hype: when a certain presidential candidate posts crosshair targets on her website telling people to "aim" for this Representative as well as other elected officials, well, i think that person is irresponsible and a danger to the public good. this is only one example of a prominent person's public stance being inflammatory. if a regular guy on the street did this, he'd be arrested as a terrorist....especially if arabic, muslim or hispanic.

i do not mean this to be a political debate as that is prohibited at P*. but it is tiresome to hear constantly from media pundits and politically ambitious persons about the need for others to be "personally responsible" and then have those doing the preaching being so irresponsible. yes, there is free speech.......but hiding behind that excuse is just that: an excuse.


MoZo

ps i own guns. there are those of us that are responsible gun owners. by her very actions of making use of such language with a map to appeal to a certain group in the population, Ms Palin has shown herself to NOT be a responsible gun owner. and she is not alone. those with conceal carry permits are held to an even higher standard and know the responsibility that goes with it.

 

[kenny]

I like to think more of what's best for society, not best for me.

I suspect countries that do not allow civilian gun ownership and have lower crime than the USA.

So do totalitarian regimes.
.

. . . and western European democracies.

 

[movie zombie]

I suspect countries that do not allow civilian gun ownership and have lower crime than the USA.

not necessarily true. additionally, death by knifing has been known to go up. try homocide by auto. if someone is deranged and wanting to do harm, it will be done. i would add that many unexplainable auto accidents resulting in death to a driver are suspected as suicides..... and while i'm not going to present that more people die in car wrecks than by individuals using guns, it does give one pause for thought as to why we don't force auto companies to make safer cars.....

back on topic, sort of: crime statistics in the US have been going DOWN.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2010/0524/US-crime-rate-is-down-six-key-reasons

suspicions are merely an emotional response and it is the generalization that removing guns from the hands of civilians will increase our safety is not supported by statistics kept by the FBI and other law enforcement agencies: crime actually increases.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1440764.stm

happened in Washington DC and in Australia as well.

MoZo

 

[ksinger]

I like to think more of what's best for society, not best for me.

I suspect countries that do not allow civilian gun ownership and have lower crime than the USA.

So do totalitarian regimes.
.

. . . and western European democracies.

Whatever. This topic has been done to DEATH in these threads in the past. There is really no need, nor any point, in discussing gun control further. And it truly IS a distraction from the reasons why people wish to do violence. Wouldn't it be better to discuss why western European democracies are less violent? Oh wait....Europe just has riots(see France and Italy) and bombs(everywhere else). Nix that.

 

[movie zombie]

ksinger has it right: distract the population into talking about the aftermath and not what caused the problem/event.
sort of like 9/11..........

i think we americans are easily led around to our own detriment.

MoZo

 

[kenny]

I wonder if the shooter saw this map of the location of House Democrat marked by gun site crosshairs.

After the shooting the map was removed from Sarah Palin's website.

 

[ksinger]

As far as motivations....like, was this random? I think the young man has pretty much spelled it out for everyone:

Gunman Described Himself as a 'Terrorist'
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703667904576071191163461466.html?mod=WSJ_hp_MIDDLETopStories

"...In the last video, uploaded to the Website on Dec. 15 and titled "Final Thoughts," Mr. Loughner calls himself a terrorist—"a person who employs terror or terrorism, especially as a political weapon." "

Any doubters left..?

 

[zhuzhu]

My work involves mental disease outcome research. Though I have no medical evidence on the gunman available to me, I am confident that the gunman suffers from some form of undiagnosed mental disorder.

It is very dangerous for the "normals" (persumbally the PS members) to assume we can explain the "motives" in this young man's messed up head, and come up with "solutions" to fix them. Patients with psychiatric illnesses do not process "logic" and "anger" as we do, and our logic really can't explain their motives and thoughts.

Imagine yourself being extremly fearful and angry about the "changing world", will you go to a public street, aim down and shoot a 9 years old girl whom you don't know?

My initial statement of telerance was referring to the background dynamics in our current political system, which enhance the delusions in the gunman's head that killing is the "right" action to take. I have a lot of problem with the ugliness of political party fights. How nasty politician like Palin showed (continue to show) to the people by example how being nasty and verbally violent is acceptable towards people holding differing (political) views (in this case). I was not trying to explain why a crazy person kills. I do believe if the public figures such as politicians can show by example that differences can be worked out by peaceful negotiations and respectful "agree to disagree", we the society as a whole, will be better off.

 

[Tuckins1]

It hurts me to hear about things like this. So tragic....

Just reinforces my decision to have my concealed weapons permit and to carry!!!

It is sooo tragic but it reinforces my feeling we need FEWER guns, better yet, NO guns in the hands of civilians.

Problem is, bad guys will always find a way, because they don't care about the law. I LOVE the 2nd amendment!!!!