Argghhh...Is it true??

[ilovedogs]

In my quest to replace my chipped stone I have so many more questions this time around......I found a great stone with James Allen. They are calling it Hearts and Arrows. But I also just spoke to someone at Whiteflash (a higher up of sorts, can''t remember her name but spoke with a british accent maybe?) and she said that James Allen''s H&A arn''t really H&A....is this true? If so then why do they call them that?

 

[JulieN]

post the JA stone with H&A pics.

 

[ilovedogs]

Here you go....there is also another post about diamond a few posts down....thanks.

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-SI2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1180375.asp

 

[denverappraiser]

The H&A grade is something that the dealer is assigning based on how it looks both face up and table down through a special viewer. Not everyone does this the same way and you don’t have h&a images for the folks here to deconstruct anyway. The Idealscope is a different thing. Call up JA and ask them how they assigned that grade. They may be able to show you the images and/or explain how they interpret them or you may just need to take their word for it. You can always hire your own pro if it's an important issue for your. There’s been quite a bit of discussion and downright arguing here on the forum about what makes a ‘real’ h&a vs an imposter and you can stay up all night reading if you use the search box at the top right corner of the page.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver

ps. The sexy accent on the phone at WF is Leslie. I think she’s South African in origin but I’m not entirely sure. Ask her.

 

[Regular Guy]

A few points:

Date: 9/16/2008 5:31:48 PM
Author: JulieN
post the JA stone with H&A pics.

From the JA site:

Why don''t you provide "hearts" and "arrows" images of your Hearts & Arrows diamonds?
The image doesn''t make the diamond H&A - it is the stringent set of standards that are used to evaluate each diamond that should be the true judge of whether or not a vendor is selling "real" hearts and arrows or just mediocre attempts. The diamonds we list in our Hearts & Arrows Collection are evaluated by one of our in-house Graduate Gemologists to ensure that every single diamond represented as H&A is the "real deal". Combine our conservative grading standards with the simple fact that our H&A diamonds are up to 20% less than the competition and you''ve created what I believe to be the best value in superideal diamonds anywhere.


Impressions...

WF do H&A like they have something...how you say..."up their but."

But...appraisers tend to back them...saying...if it is not technically H&A, don''t call them that.

Regardless, and although we have seen JA diamonds reported on by appraisers before being called "not that," regardless, we do not like to have vendors talking about competitors, saying, even "just between you and me" that way.

You might like to pay for tight H&A, and few probably do that like WF, but you may not need that.

Do a search for recent discussion on H&A.

 

[strmrdr]

Some are some aren''t depending on what standard you apply.
JA wont provide heart images, Bad JA.

The optical symmetry however which is more important than h&a itself has been acceptable in the JA h&a''s that I have seen images of.

Talking down another vendors product using words that may or may not apply to the stone in question .. bad WF.

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 9/16/2008 6:06:08 PM
Author: strmrdr
Some are some aren''t depending on what standard you apply.

JA wont provide heart images, Bad JA.


The optical symmetry however which is more important than h&a itself has been acceptable in the JA h&a''s that I have seen images of.


Talking down another vendors product using words that may or may not apply to the stone in question .. bad WF.

LOL Storm. But he''s right on the $ as usual.

 

[Lynn B]

Date: 9/16/2008 6:06:08 PM
Author: strmrdr

Talking down another vendors product using words that may or may not apply to the stone in question .. bad WF.

Absolutely agree.

 

[LesleyH]

Hi ilovedogs:

I am the person you spoke to with the "British" accent. I don''t recall telling you that JA''s stones were not H&A. What I did say was that the stone you are looking at here at WF has great H&A ''s but was not assigned the Whiteflash ACA brand as it has medium fluorescence which disqualifies it. I also said that if you end up selecting the JA stone that I would appreciate feedback on your perception of JA''s H&A''s. It is our policy at WF NOT to comment on other vendors'' diamonds but rather to speak about what we are sure of, which can only be our stones.

Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt now that the facts are clear.

LesleyH
www.whiteflash.com

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 9/16/2008 5:52:41 PM
Author: denverappraiser
The H&A grade is something that the dealer is assigning based on how it looks both face up and table down through a special viewer. Not everyone does this the same way and you don’t have h&a images for the folks here to deconstruct anyway. The Idealscope is a different thing. Call up JA and ask them how they assigned that grade. They may be able to show you the images and/or explain how they interpret them or you may just need to take their word for it. You can always hire your own pro if it''s an important issue for your. There’s been quite a bit of discussion and downright arguing here on the forum about what makes a ‘real’ h&a vs an imposter and you can stay up all night reading if you use the search box at the top right corner of the page.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver

ps. The sexy accent on the phone at WF is Leslie. I think she’s South African in origin but I’m not entirely sure. Ask her.

This is from the James Allen sight. It does not compute to me.

Why don''t you provide "hearts" and "arrows" images of your Hearts & Arrows diamonds?

The image doesn''t make the diamond H&A - it is the stringent set of standards that are used to evaluate each diamond that should be the true judge of whether or not a vendor is selling "real" hearts and arrows or just mediocre attempts.

The reason this does not compute to me is that it is the image that tells the viewer whether or not the strict standards have been met. The hearts and arrows image may not make the diamond an Ideal cut or Excellent cut, but the image is what determines whether the diamond is H&A or something else, even if it is Ideal or Excellent cut.

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 9/16/2008 5:53:21 PM
Author: Regular Guy
A few points:

Date: 9/16/2008 5:31:48 PM
Author: JulieN
post the JA stone with H&A pics.

From the JA site:

Why don''t you provide ''hearts'' and ''arrows'' images of your Hearts & Arrows diamonds?
The image doesn''t make the diamond H&A - it is the stringent set of standards that are used to evaluate each diamond that should be the true judge of whether or not a vendor is selling ''real'' hearts and arrows or just mediocre attempts. The diamonds we list in our Hearts & Arrows Collection are evaluated by one of our in-house Graduate Gemologists to ensure that every single diamond represented as H&A is the ''real deal''. Combine our conservative grading standards with the simple fact that our H&A diamonds are up to 20% less than the competition and you''ve created what I believe to be the best value in superideal diamonds anywhere.


Impressions...

WF do H&A like they have something...how you say...''up their but.''

But...appraisers tend to back them...saying...if it is not technically H&A, don''t call them that.

Regardless, and although we have seen JA diamonds reported on by appraisers before being called ''not that,'' regardless, we do not like to have vendors talking about competitors, saying, even ''just between you and me'' that way.

You might like to pay for tight H&A, and few probably do that like WF, but you may not need that.

Do a search for recent discussion on H&A.

I don''t know. Seems to me if something is not something, it should not be called something. If the person calling it something wants to call it something, then he/she should back it up or not call it something.

If we have someone consistently calling something that it is not, then I think we have an obligation to say something. I could say something more, but I am not sure how many times I am allowed to use something in a day and I think I might be somewhat close to a quota or something...

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

P.S. I am not commenting on the stone involved since I have not seen it and have no way of knowing. I do know that the above statement on their site makes no sense to me what so ever. I can appreciate their not wanting to be involved in the kind of discussion we went through a few weeks ago over a stone sold as a H&A cut that clearly was not in any traditional sense a H&A cut image. But to me, if they want to sell their stones as H&A then they should be willing to take the photos if asked and send them out.

I also appreciate Leslie''s follow up comments, as what she says she said sounds more like her to me.

Wink

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Date: 9/16/2008 6:36:32 PM
Author: Wink
P.S. I am not commenting on the stone involved since I have not seen it and have no way of knowing. I do know that the above statement on their site makes no sense to me what so ever. I can appreciate their not wanting to be involved in the kind of discussion we went through a few weeks ago over a stone sold as a H&A cut that clearly was not in any traditional sense a H&A cut image. But to me, if they want to sell their stones as H&A then they should be willing to take the photos if asked and send them out.

I also appreciate Leslie''s follow up comments, as what she says she said sounds more like her to me.

Wink

Ditto. How can anyone know if they are really H&A when no images are provided???

 

[ilovedogs]

Actually Lesly you most certainly did say that. What does it benefit to make up something like that? I was mearly looking for explanation from the consumers who know more than i do. It was not meant to create drama or to create issues but looking for explanation before I make a huge purchase.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I think the issue is, if they are not providing the images, then I would be highly skeptical that they are really H&A. So I don''t see anything inaccurate about what Lesley or Wink has said.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 9/16/2008 6:31:12 PM
Author: Wink
If the person calling it something wants to call it something, then he/she should back it up or not call it something.


If we have someone consistently calling something that it is not, then I think we have an obligation to say something.
Wink

1st part I agree, I bug Jim about it from time to time the same way I bugged WF about it when they were not providing heart images.

2nd part if one vendors says something about another vendors product then they better have proof and they are much better off not mentioning it at all.

3rd: Lesley just said she said an Expert Selection stone was h&a and they refuse to provide heart images for them so it isn't clearly one sided on that issue.

To be clear my position is and always has been and always will be: anyone representing a stone as h&a should provide h&a images.

 

[ilovedogs]

Sorry to have stirred the pot...I just want a sparkly stone at the best price. I don''t care if it is H&A quite honestly as long as it is cut well.

Just thought I would get a little clarification is all....bad idea I guess. I will try and figure it out on my own. Thanks everyone.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 9/16/2008 7:17:53 PM
Author: ilovedogs
Sorry to have stirred the pot...I just want a sparkly stone at the best price. I don''t care if it is H&A quite honestly as long as it is cut well.

Just thought I would get a little clarification is all....bad idea I guess. I will try and figure it out on my own. Thanks everyone.

Then no doubt you will be happy with the diamond that you have found. The non H&A ideal cut diamonds are still beautiful diamonds, they just should not be called H&A unless they are. This diamond may be or it may not be. Wont be possible to say until you see it, with a viewer.

If it matters not, then you don''t need to worry about it. You can enjoy the beauty either way.

Wink

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 9/16/2008 7:17:53 PM
Author: ilovedogs
Sorry to have stirred the pot...I just want a sparkly stone at the best price. I don''t care if it is H&A quite honestly as long as it is cut well.


Just thought I would get a little clarification is all....bad idea I guess. I will try and figure it out on my own. Thanks everyone.

Don''t worry about it, it is a pot that needs stirring every once in the while.
Your other thread is for commenting on the JA diamond and I left a post there.
If you have any questions in that thread we will be happy to help as much as we can.

 

[bgray]

Hearts and Arrows is a brand I believe. If Lesley said that JA's stone was not H&A (and i dont believe that they sell any branded stones--)then that is true. A stone can HAVE the hearts and arrows specs but not technically BE H&A

 

[denverboy]

Date: 9/16/2008 8:00:52 PM
Author: bgray
Hearts and Arrows is a brand I believe. If Lesley said that JA''s stone was not H&A (and i dont believe that they sell any branded stones--)then that is true. A stone can HAVE the hearts and arrows specs but not technically BE H&A

I beleive Hearts and Arrows just refers to the style of precision cut, it isn''t a brand. Hearts on Fire is a famous branded H&A cut diamond. WF''s ACA is also another example. But I haven''t heard of a H&A brand itself - that would really add to the confusion haha , but someone correct me if i''m wrong.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 9/16/2008 8:00:52 PM
Author: bgray
Hearts and Arrows is a brand I believe. If Lesley said that JA''s stone was not H&A (and i dont believe that they sell any branded stones--)then that is true. A stone can HAVE the hearts and arrows specs but not technically BE H&A

It is a brand in Japan, in this country it is a descriptive comment on the quality of the optical symmetry.

wink

 

[Ellen]

Date: 9/16/2008 6:31:12 PM
Author: Wink

I don''t know. Seems to me if something is not something, it should not be called something. If the person calling it something wants to call it something, then he/she should back it up or not call it something.

If we have someone consistently calling something that it is not, then I think we have an obligation to say something. I could say something more, but I am not sure how many times I am allowed to use something in a day and I think I might be somewhat close to a quota or something...

Wink

 

[John P]

Date: 9/16/2008 7:17:53 PM
Author: ilovedogs
Sorry to have stirred the pot...I just want a sparkly stone at the best price. I don't care if it is H&A quite honestly as long as it is cut well.

Just thought I would get a little clarification is all....bad idea I guess. I will try and figure it out on my own. Thanks everyone.

No worries ilovedogs. This is a difficult topic to clarify - no fault of yours.

Pretend you had asked “Is this diamond really D in color?” If you reported “It’s a D from GIA” most people would vouch for it. If you reported “It’s a D from EGL” there may not be as much support. If you reported “It’s a D because the seller says so” I think you'd hear a lot of mixed reactions.

That is what you often get in H&A land. With no universal standards you’re left with “It’s H&A because the seller says so.” Ergo, mixed reactions.

I’m with Strm on this one. If a dealer advertises a diamond as H&A I believe it should be accompanied by hearts and arrows images, or a published guarantee of standards at the least. And why not? A posted grading report from an independent lab is considered compulsory for the other Cs. When advertising a stone as H&A it would seem logical and consistent to demonstrate this aspect as well.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 9/16/2008 7:13:08 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 9/16/2008 6:31:12 PM
Author: Wink
If the person calling it something wants to call it something, then he/she should back it up or not call it something.


If we have someone consistently calling something that it is not, then I think we have an obligation to say something.
Wink

1st part I agree, I bug Jim about it from time to time the same way I bugged WF about it when they were not providing heart images.

2nd part if one vendors says something about another vendors product then they better have proof and they are much better off not mentioning it at all.

3rd: Lesley just said she said an Expert Selection stone was h&a and they refuse to provide heart images for them so it isn''t clearly one sided on that issue.

To be clear my position is and always has been and always will be: anyone representing a stone as h&a should provide h&a images.

agree with strm

 

[Abril]

Date: 9/16/2008 6:55:04 PM
Author: ilovedogs
Actually Lesly you most certainly did say that. What does it benefit to make up something like that? I was mearly looking for explanation from the consumers who know more than i do. It was not meant to create drama or to create issues but looking for explanation before I make a huge purchase.

He said, she said. Too bad there isn''t a tape of the phone conversation to settle the dispute.

But anyway, I hope you get a nice H&A diamond. If you go with the James Allen stone, I guess an appraiser with an H&A viewer should be able to allow you to decide for yourself if the pattern meets your standard of "H&A-ness."