Appraisal while in the setting

[emeralddude]

Hi Everybody,
I have a question and appreciate any thoughts. I want to buy a diamond and setting from diamondontheweb.com
my question is that if they put the diamond on the setting (which they do for free) can I still take it to an appraiser and have it checked. If not, what is the way I have to do that. Should I ask them to send the diamond and setting separated from each other? if so how can I put them together. please help me out.
Many Thanks,
Al

 

[strmrdr]

Depends on what you want the appraiser to do.
If you just want them to verify the cert information is close and that the stone matches the cert then mounted is fine.

If you want a full workup with more accurate color grading then it needs to be unmounted when the appraiser looks at it.

 

[emeralddude]

Thanks for your reply. I need to have a full appraisal. Suppose I buy the stone unmounted. are the apprasiers able to mount it themselves or should I take it to a jeweller after appraisal? how much usually does it cost?should I be concerned that if they chip it I can do nothing about it?
thanks again!
Al

 

[Regular Guy]

Al,

Explore your options with DiamonsonWeb, and your appraiser of choice. A classical approach will have DOW send diamond to the appraiser, the appraiser to view it, the appraiser to send diamond unmounted back to DOW, DOW then sets diamond into setting, finally...DOW sends finished product back to appraiser, who confirms the handiwork, that''s it''s the original diamond viewed before, and then produces the final appraisal document, and gives you the finished product.

As Storm says, if there''s less of a need for the diamond to be studied closely at the beginning, the diamond can be set initially and then sent to the appraiser, but the appraiser''s work will be handicapped in some measure this way, which does get to save a couple of steps.

 

[RockDoc]

Date: 6/15/2005 9:31:42 PM
Author: Regular Guy
Al,

Explore your options with DiamonsonWeb, and your appraiser of choice. A classical approach will have DOW send diamond to the appraiser, the appraiser to view it, the appraiser to send diamond unmounted back to DOW, DOW then sets diamond into setting, finally...DOW sends finished product back to appraiser, who confirms the handiwork, that's it's the original diamond viewed before, and then produces the final appraisal document, and gives you the finished product.

As Storm says, if there's less of a need for the diamond to be studied closely at the beginning, the diamond can be set initially and then sent to the appraiser, but the appraiser's work will be handicapped in some measure this way, which does get to save a couple of steps.

RE: Checking in the mounting.....

This is ok if just a verification is needed, and the stone is a VS-1 or LOWER. Verifying exact weight isn't possible in the mounting, and color grading is difficult, and basically an "educated guess" which could be off due to the setting.

If the stone is VVS or in the Flawless category, verifying the inclusions could be impossible while set.

Most appraisers have a setter that will set the stone, so sending it back and forth across the country twice is just uselessly costly.

Also - the stone is only in one person's hands or supervision. Also saves time.


Rockdoc

 

[Regular Guy]

I as much as anyone would like to see the movement of a diamond to appraiser, to the setting, to the owner occur with no gap, and maybe Rock Doc speaks as an expert, being knowledgeable about common practice, when he says:

Date: 6/15/2005 10:27:22 PM
Author: RockDoc

Most appraisers have a setter that will set the stone, so sending it back and forth across the country twice is just uselessly costly.

Also - the stone is only in one person''s hands or supervision. Also saves time.

There are 4 appraisers that frequent this board...I''m guessing Rock is one that uses a setter, oldminer says he does too, but if you''ve read what I''ve read (and I think I capture his note in the link above) Richard Sherwood does not...not sure about Denver Appraiser.

Regardless of what even dominant practice is...if you''re going to go through the trouble of using an appraiser at all....as many jewelers offer womb to tomb services, including a document that can be provided to an insurer, I''m not sure that setting services are ones you''d want to avail yourself of, from an appraiser, despite the fact that it could ease this tussle.

Consider buying a house. My real estate agent was a friend (is this a problem or not?), and also something of an expert, frankly. He was assertive (this was a mistake) in recommending a home inspector to help me with the purchase, and although years later, by accident of circumstance, I was able to understand that the home inspector my friend Jim recommended was actually among the best in the industry...the confound was undeniable...and that to make a recommendation to me that the house should not be bought, the inspector would be denying that particular sale to the agent who recommended him. A problem. And one that only marginally parallels the relationship an appraiser would have with a setter, because the setter''s work would not make the work of the appraiser under any circumstance invalid (whereas the judgement of a home inspector could).

When I had my ring appraised, although the appraiser was certainly trained as an expert in valuing gems, I experienced the value of their work most in their study of the workmanship of the setter, since it was set poorly, and the appraiser could tell me this, and was able to direct me to have it repaired, which I did immediately.

Ideally, an appraiser would only know expert technicians, and never have the problem of a third party, or himself, doing bad workmanship. But...heavens forbid....what if the third party not only does a poor job setting the diamond...what if they chip the stone, after it''s presented to the appraiser. What would compel the appraiser to tell on himself?

Real world situations may dictate lots of things with respect to the ring buying process...not the least of which is the state of the mind of the would be proposer, and his anticipation of the state of mind of the proposee. And with that in mind...getting the details down in an ideal way the order of operations for getting a diamond into a ring may really be low in priority for the buyer, in comparison to wanting to get the job done. Nevertheless, these details all -- it seems to me -- have their place. Though experts may both know more, and also, may be sensitive to the relative likelihood of any problems occurring, making these specific concerns perhaps more negligible than not...still, common sense, it seems to me, dictates some things more than others. Seems to me, if you''re going to use an appraiser at all, you might want to use them for their appraising services only.

And frankly, with kudos to Rockdoc and the others active on this board...if you''re buying a diamond today, unless you''re going to get an AGS stone, where the details of crown & pavilion measurement can be relied upon...I would likely want to send it to one of these guys to be checked by the equipment they have for checking them. I''m likely to be in the minority on this...or how else to explain Leonid''s removal of the "recommended" piece that had recently supplemented his appraiser list here. Also, when GIA finally places this data on their certs, this point will then be mitigated, it would seem. That is what will be, however, and this is now.

In the meanwhile, best to you,

 

[pqcollectibles]

If I remember correctly, ALJDewey had her diamond and ring sent to Rich Sherwood for the appraisal. After Mr. Sherwood gave ALJD the report and she approved, Mr. Sherwood had a Master Jeweler mount the diamond for her. You might check with ALJD to be sure.

 

[Regular Guy]

PQ,

Stories change with some frequency...maybe he is doing it again now...but as Rich re-tells the story about her ring in the "no gap" link I captured above, he reports having since stopped this practice, based on some actual problems he encountered not unrelated to what I''m speculating about as possible problems here.

 

[emeralddude]

Everybody in here is so great and helpful, I appreciate all your help. One thing that I don''t get completley though is that I don''t understand what is wrong with sending the stone back and forth from the vendor to the appraiser a few times to get the setting job done by the vendor itself. The shipping is overnight and insured. Why some of you think the shipping costs outweigh the risks of having the appaiser hide its own friend''s lousy mounting job?
also suppose that the stone has a problem. if the appraiser is not worried about losing steak in the mounting process, then the appraiser will definitely tell you about the problem, however, if the apprasier knows that by revealing the stones''s problem, it might lose the subsequent mounting steak , then isn''t it possible that the appraiser hides the problem from you?
Many thanks.
Al

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 6/16/2005 9:41:33 AM
Author: emeralddude
Why some of you think the shipping costs outweigh the risks of having the appaiser hide its own friend''s lousy mounting job?

All right, now I didn''t say, or even mean to overtly imply any of these things, per se.

Also, though I''m not sure exactly what you''re talking about when you say:

...if the appraiser is not worried about losing steak in the mounting process, then the appraiser will definitely tell you about the problem, however, if the apprasier knows that by revealing the stones''s problem, it might lose the subsequent mounting steak , then isn''t it possible that the appraiser hides the problem from you?
Many thanks.
Al

...this "mounting steak" thing is sort of unknown to me...so I''m reluctant to comment specifically...

Although in principle, you''re speaking to the choir, if there''s no substantive time sensitivity...I will say this...despite the fact that there''s no reason to think anything bad will go wrong in this setting process with whoever you use, that''s true about the safety of your diamond engagement ring for any given year, as well, but that''s really no reason to suggest that people go without simple insurance. Right....? That''s all.

 

[RockDoc]

Date: 6/16/2005 9:41:33 AM
Author: emeralddude
Everybody in here is so great and helpful, I appreciate all your help. One thing that I don''t get completley though is that I don''t understand what is wrong with sending the stone back and forth from the vendor to the appraiser a few times to get the setting job done by the vendor itself. The shipping is overnight and insured. Why some of you think the shipping costs outweigh the risks of having the appaiser hide its own friend''s lousy mounting job?
also suppose that the stone has a problem. if the appraiser is not worried about losing steak in the mounting process, then the appraiser will definitely tell you about the problem, however, if the apprasier knows that by revealing the stones''s problem, it might lose the subsequent mounting steak , then isn''t it possible that the appraiser hides the problem from you?
Many thanks.
Al

Dear Al,

At least as far as I am concerned, I think you really misunderstand the thrust of an appraiser arranging for the setting of a stone that is evaluated for a consumer.

RE: Covering up the Stone''s problems.. This is an absolute NO NO for any appraiser who is professional. Being of an independent stature, none of the appraisers that I know of, would cover up any "problems". My position is that if the stone isn''t right you just return it and pick another one. This is why client''s hire us.

Some client''s ( Not many however) choose to have the ring checked a second time, which if there was a problem the appraiser missed or neglected to disclose in the reports, it would be all over this forum, and the appraiser''s credibility would be questioned, and his reputation ruined.

As far as I am concerned, the setting arrangements, are entirely the decision of the client. If the client wants me to supervise the setting work, I do so. My setter charges about $ 40.00 per carat for regular prong work. If the setter does a poor job, it is a reflection on my service for checking the work to make sure it is correctly and properly executed. For me, it takes about 2-3 hours of my time, as I personally watch everything he does. I don''t do this with an interest in financial gain, since the payment is made to the setter, and I do not bill the client for that time ( maybe that is foolish financially, but that is just me). My intention is to provide this service only if the client wishes it and I follow their instructions. I dont just hand out these type of jobs, I do what I believe I would want done if it were my item, which would be to watch the whole process.

Most clients tell me that once the stone is graded and checked they are concerned that the stone is going to be in someone else unsupervised control. Many are happy also to buy the ring from a local jeweler and watch the setting process themselves. I am sure the other appraisers feel the same way. But most of them value and appreciate being able to have their item shipped direct all ready to wear when the analysis is completed.

If you wish the stone to go back to the seller, have it set, and send it back for checking that is fine too.

You could ask the other appraisers what their procedures are for this as well.

Rockdoc

 

[strmrdr]

RockDoc,
If your setter breaks the diamond who pays for the new one?

 

[denverappraiser]

Rockdoc,

I do not contract with setters or custom jewelers on behalf of clients. I’m in a pretty large city and there are quite a few qualified jewelers that are happy to do work for out of town and local clients and they are not generally very difficult to find. There are several in my building, most of whom will assume the breakage risk on most jobs although all reserve the right to decline any job for any reason if their bench people have a problem with it. In all cases, this negotiation is made directly between the jeweler and the client.

A common transaction is for the client to have the primary diamond shipped directly to me from the dealer for examination. I deliver my report via email. They make whatever decisions they wish about buying the stone and where to have it set. I will either hand deliver or ship the stone to whoever they instruct me to ship it to. Sometimes this will be back to the diamond seller, sometimes directly to the client and sometimes to a setter directly. In all cases, the client works directly with the company doing the setting.

The client will often instruct the jeweler to send the finished ring back to me for inspection and for a final appraisal on the completed project. If there is a problem, I report it in writing directly to the client who can do whatever they wish with this information. I say nothing at all to the jeweler, even if I know who it is. If the client wishes, I’ll send it back to the jeweler for additional work and schedule another inspection when they have completed it. This process repeats until the client is satisfied that it’s done properly although usually it works out pretty fast because the local jewelers are well aware of my quality standards and it saves them some embarrassment if they get it right the first time. All records, including photomicrographs of the relevant details at the various steps are kept for 5 years. Certain jewelers refuse to be involved because they find me to be overly picky while others relish the opportunity to demonstrate their skills and to advance their reputations as well as to make what is sometimes a pretty good sale.
Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[RockDoc]

Date: 6/16/2005 11:25:51 AM
Author: strmrdr
RockDoc,
If your setter breaks the diamond who pays for the new one?

That is a stone by stone call.

Some stones have inherent problems with setting them, so in that case no one in their right mind would take on that liability for a $ 40.00 setting fee.

That said, a lot has to do with the expertise of the setter, and I haven''t ever had a problem with that, because the guy I use ONLY does setting work. He is a true craftsman, and I discuss any potential problems with him in advance. If we feel there is a potential danger then I discuss this with the client. Obviously it makes far better sense to

Also consider that in almost 100% of the time, the quality of the diamonds are exceptional that I''ve looked at.
They just aren''t stones that are of the same quality the mass retailers are selling. Those type stones require ( I-1 etc) require special attention while setting. The better quality stones are certainly less problematic.

If the setter did something wrong, then I suppose we share the liability in fixing it. But I''ve yet to ever had that happen, as discussion, planning and supervision is attended to.

Rockdoc