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Appraisal is THREE times as much as we paid?

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Gleam

Gleam

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Sep 19, 2009
Messages
565
Hello everyone,

Longtime lurker and I hugely appreciate all the advice I''ve read on these boards from you experts and diamond lovers.

My fiance just bought me a 2.5 carat diamond engagement ring set in a solitaire platinum setting. Here are the specs from the EGL USA report:

Shape and Cut: Round Brilliant
Clarity: SI1
Color: I
Measurements: 8.73 - 8.65 x 5.25 mm.
Total Depth: 60.3%
Table Width: 55%
Crown Height: 15%
Pavilion Depth: 41%
Girdle Thickness: Medium, Faceted
Polish: Very Good
Symmetry: Very Good
Cutlet: Small

We paid a little over $10,000. Our independent appraisal came back as over $32,000!!

Umm, is this normal? Our jeweler said *if* it is inflated, it''s inflated by no more than 25%. Is this normal? I was pretty sure we got a good deal, but did we somehow get a REALLY good deal?
 
Ask the appraiser why he did that.
 
Unfortunately, this appraiser isn't open until Monday. Given how many experts are here, I thought I'd mine the brains of Pricescope in the interim. I'm very curious!

We were told by our jeweler that we paid wholesale price + 7%.
 
You can insure it for that but you'll be throwing a lot of money at the insurance company for a vastly inflated premium.

BTW, a PS search shows EGL I SI1 VG/VG-EX/EX selling from $10-17K, so you're in at the low end. I would not count on color/clarity/finish meeting AGS/GIA standards but the average proportions you reported look good by the numbers.

Edited to add: I presume the 41 you reported is actually pavilion angle and not pavilion depth... A 41% PD would equal a 39.5 avg PA...which would change things a bit.
 
John, many thanks. Hmm, I wonder why the appraiser did that... surely she''s not being thrown some bones by insurance companies?!
 
(see my edit above)

You're welcome. No way to know. Was the appraiser "recommended" by the seller or is it someone you found independently? Did you give her the documentation with the stone? Does she work out of a ski shop in Aspen where a candy bar costs $3.50?
2.gif
 
ya, can you check the pav numbers?
 
John and Stone-Cold, unfortunately, the Pavilion DEPTH is 41%, which I understand is only considered "average" by the GIA. Yikes. I considered *a lot* of criteria before I bought, but I don't think I ever questioned the pavilion depth. The jeweler who sold this diamond told me that the cut was "ideal" as far as she was concerned.

I KNEW what I was getting into with a EGL stone, but I thought my jeweler would be correct about the cut. She always said, as you guys do, to buy the diamond, not the certificate.

Uh-oh?? Should I go ahead and panic?

I worried a little about posting on PS because you can always find a bigger, better diamond for less money, etc... especially with the knowledge here. If I'm happy with the price my fiance paid + happy with the diamond, is that okay, or am I being foolhardy??

By the way, I can't tell you how grateful I am to the folks here at Pricescope.

Edited to add: The "independent appraisal" was done after we paid for the diamond, by an appraiser recommended by our jeweler.
 
Are you within a return period?
 
Kenny: Yes, minus a restocking fee... can't recall what it is now, but I want to say it's 15%. Wow, did we get ripped off that badly?

Edited to add: My fiance did most of the money-related stuff, but if I recall correctly, the stone itself cost us somewhere between $9,000-$9,500 with tax. The platinum setting was around $900.
 
Gleam,

No panic necessary. But you should probably know reality.

The GIA would give this diamond a "Good" in cut and it's predicted for an AGS 5 in light performance. All this is due to the shallow pavilion angle, which is subject to a lot of obstruction. If you want to see what I mean take it into a bright area and hold it about 24" (or arm's length) from your eyes. Then bring it slowly to about 6" from your eyes and watch how dark the body of the diamond becomes as it gets within a foot.

Did the EGL give this a cut grade? I am curious what they would rate this; their ranges have changed over the years. There is usually a reason a manufacturer sends a diamond to a certain lab. In this case the cut results from the top two would not have helped sell it.

I am sorry about the apparent lenient use of the term "ideal" by your jeweler. It is a significant problem in this business. In some places it means something extremely strict and in others it's equivalent to saying "this car is a cream puff." In any event, the numbers do explain the lowball pricing.

And, on-topic, I'm curious to know where you found this appraiser and what system she used to evaluate cut quality.
 
You definitely got a good price, something that big for a little over 10k is remarkable. I would not call the cut ideal at all, but it''s not a bad one either. To be quite honest you''re not going to get a 2.5 ct H&A Ideal diamond for close to 10k anyway, more like close to 20k. The HCA score came up ok, do you have any pics of it?

Was it really EGL-USA? EGL-USA''s are very consistent, however the other EGL''s not so much.

--Joshua
 
John, thank you again, you're my hero tonight...

I don't have the complete EGL certificate which is supposed to be coming in the next few days. This was not a diamond in my jeweler's inventory. I don't think I even really did a lot of looking at certificates with this jeweler... I did ask her to pull a few stones based on their reports, but mostly looked at whatever diamonds she said fit into my criteria.

Thank you for your kind assessment. I can handle reality. I figured I would not get the creme de la creme of stones given the financial perimeters and also the size I wanted, and that's okay. I just don't want to be ripped off, which is a modest request, I think!
 
Hi Joshua, I agree, I think we got a fairly good price... but I'm no expert.

I have a couple bad photos taken with my camera, if that's what you mean? lol My poor digital camera is so old, it's begging to be retired. And no, I never asked about the hearts and arrows... *smacks head* I did so much reading on Pricescope, but I did not ask about every aspect posed here, which perhaps I should've (does everyone else?).
 
Date: 9/19/2009 8:01:57 PM
Author: Gleam
John, thank you again, you're my hero tonight...

I don't have the complete EGL certificate which is supposed to be coming in the next few days. This was not a diamond in my jeweler's inventory. I don't think I even really did a lot of looking at certificates with this jeweler... I did ask her to pull a few stones based on their reports, but mostly looked at whatever diamonds she said fit into my criteria.

Thank you for your kind assessment. I can handle reality. I figured I would not get the creme de la creme of stones given the financial perimeters and also the size I wanted, and that's okay. I just don't want to be ripped off, which is a modest request, I think!
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Absolutely. And I applaud you for asking.

I should say that, in my opinion, the cut quality is the most important component to diamond beauty. If "big" is all someone is looking for you can overlook my comments, but in my experience most people want sparkle as well as size. Especially since light return is what makes a diamond look big, edge to edge.

I've modeled the averages below so you can see the obstruction issues. A round brilliant should return as much red as possible with a smaller, even, pattern of blue for contrast. That blue area is what is "dark" when you are looking at it face-up (in this model at a distance of about 10"). You can see the abundant blue under-table and in the center which would not be there in a round with a pavilion more suitable for that crown angle (40.6-41.0 degrees in the most acclaimed metrics).

Please bear in mind that this example is a perfect wire frame simulation, not possible IRL. Your diamond would not likely have this kind of optical symmetry but the basic light return, based on the averages, would be similar enough to make this demonstration valid.

Can you ask your jeweler to find you something with angles that pair for top light return? (btw, happy to help)

egl-55-395-340.jpg
 
John, I do see what you mean. I'm a diamond layman, so to me the sparkle was adequate. You know the kind of girl who sees a Harry Winston ring and says "Ooooo" then sees a GIA-average ring and says "Ooooo." I just am not so discerning with the eye! Yes, size is important! More important though, is that I paid a fair price for what my diamond is (flaws and all... though I wish my jeweler had not told me the cut was "ideal" and "not something to worry about with any of the stones I show you" -- WOW, will not be returning to her for the wedding band!).

Edited to add: I hope you all are getting heaps of good karma for your free advice given on this forum?? If I knew much about anything, I'd like to help others, too, but as it is, I have to accept help!
 
You paid a reasonable price and since you’ve seen the stone and love it, I wouldn’t devote all that much stress to that part of the puzzle. In the end, what someone else, like AGS or any of us thinks rocks based on lab measurements isn’t nearly as important as what you and your beloved think with your stone in hand. Banging your head against the wall after the fact is rarely a productive exercise and a 15% restocking penalty is a BIG penalty to pay for taking back something you loved before you came here.

Your appraisal sounds like a work of fiction and it’ll cost you hundreds of dollars per year extra in your insurance if you bind a policy based on this document. You don’t get better or higher coverage, just higher premiums. Talk to the appraiser on Monday and see what she has to say. She’s doing you no favors. Just out of curiosity, did you pay for this 'independent' appraisal or was it included as part of the bundle form the selling jeweler?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 
Just a note, I have always insured jewelry using the sales receipt along with the diamond grading certificate. I refuse to pay premiums for an inflated value because that onlybenefits the insurance company! Those inflated appraisals are somehow supposed to make the purchaser feel good about the purchase, I suppose. But smart people will see through that and insure for the amount it would cost to replace the item...and that is the amount you paid most of the time.
 
Date: 9/19/2009 8:15:28 PM
Author: Gleam
John, I do see what you mean. I'm a diamond layman, so to me the sparkle was adequate. You know the kind of girl who sees a Harry Winston ring and says 'Ooooo' then sees a GIA-average ring and says 'Ooooo.' I just am not so discerning with the eye! Yes, size is important! More important though, is that I paid a fair price for what my diamond is (flaws and all... though I wish my jeweler had not told me the cut was 'ideal' and 'not something to worry about with any of the stones I show you' -- WOW, will not be returning to her for the wedding band!).

Edited to add: I hope you all are getting heaps of good karma for your free advice given on this forum?? If I knew much about anything, I'd like to help others, too, but as it is, I have to accept help!
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Gleam,

Happy to help - I appreciate the kind thoughts and I also like your attitude.

"I paid a fair price for my diamond" is what stands out above. Not every person has the same priorities, and you need to decide what fits you best.

Just in case you are interested in double-checking to be sure you are indeed a unilateral 'oooo' gal
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something I would suggest that you do is to compare your diamond with others (GIA EX or AGS 0) in different lighting conditions and in your case at close-up distances. If you decide to take a spin doing this include diffused and indirect lighting (diffused is under fluorescents or a cloudy day - indirect can be softer lighting, or both diamonds under a counter where it's semi dark and reflected light is all that can reach them). Most laymen I have worked with start to recognize top tier from lower tiers of cut quality pretty fast when making those kinds of head-to-head comparisons - but you need to get away from the jewelry store showroom spots, which make all cuts look great.

If you decide to stay with the "biggun" you got for $10K I'd highly suggest that you not pay an inflated premium on insurance.

Cheers,
 
denverappraiser, thanks for your kind response. I will take your advice and not bang my head over what I think is a perfectly nice stone (plebeian that I am). Like I said, there is always bigger and better for less, especially if you are so fortunate as to be a diamond expert. I feel we did very well, and I'm glad you guys here more or less agree!

I will get the diamond reappraised. I'm a little baffled by the appraisal that came with our diamond. I hesitate to call it a "bundle" because the jeweler specifically told me to get an independent appraisal myself as soon as possible, for insurance. But when we picked up the diamond today, they had an independent appraisal already waiting for us, which I didn't expect. I have an appointment with another appraiser, and go with an insurance company with an "agreed upon value" policy like Chubb.
 
Date: 9/19/2009 9:07:27 PM
Author: Gleam
denverappraiser, thanks for your kind response. I will take your advice and not bang my head over what I think is a perfectly nice stone (plebeian that I am). Like I said, there is always bigger and better for less, especially if you are so fortunate as to be a diamond expert. I feel we did very well, and I''m glad you guys here more or less agree!

I will get the diamond reappraised. I''m a little baffled by the appraisal that came with our diamond. I hesitate to call it a ''bundle'' because the jeweler specifically told me to get an independent appraisal myself as soon as possible, for insurance. But when we picked up the diamond today, they had an independent appraisal already waiting for us, which I didn''t expect. I have an appointment with another appraiser, and go with an insurance company with an ''agreed upon value'' policy like Chubb.
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Just to reiterate, Chubb took sales receipts and the AGS/GIA certs for the items I insured. You don''t even want to pay for an appraisal that is twice the actual value.
 
diamondseeker, you are absolutely right! It''s an appraisal designed to make us feel good about the purchase. I feel stupid for not having thought of that before. You are correct. Thanks, I didn''t know that about Chubb -- I will not bother with another appraisal then, and save myself $100. Thank you again.
 
You''re welcome! And please take some pictures and post in Show Me the Ring! We''d love to see it!!!
 
Date: 9/19/2009 9:38:27 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006
You''re welcome! And please take some pictures and post in Show Me the Ring! We''d love to see it!!!
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Yes, definitely, even if they are a little blurry;-)

--Joshua
 
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