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Appraisal for insurance came in...LOWER than purchase price

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phaskellhall

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 11, 2019
Messages
31
I just got my diamond back from Victor Canera and it's absolutely amazing (I'll post photos soon). Before shipping the loose diamond to him, I had it insured through Jewelers Mutual but they said they only will insure it for 30 days as a loose stone because typically they don't cover non set diamonds in engagement rings.

I bought the ring from ID Jewelers in NYC and know that I got a great deal on it at best and a fair market deal at worst (I've researched a ton of stones before buying).

I paid $14,000 for the center stone and then around $3500-4500 for the VC Emilya single halo platinum setting. Total for the ring was around $17500 - $19000 with shipping/tax/etc. The appraisal came back at $13,000! That's $1000 less than I paid for the stone itself not even counting the custom setting!!!

From reading online, it seems you want your appraisal to come in slightly higher than your purchase price so you can get a replacement with inflation but you don't want your appraisal to be 2x the value or you are spending too much on insurance for no reason. I never thought the appraisal would come in $1,000 less than the stone itself! I'm currently living between two different regions of the US so I needed a quick appraisal. The attached jeweler/appraiser was able to look at the ring same day and gave me the quote 2 days later. Most jewelers I contacted in my area said an appraisal was going to take 2-6 weeks and they would have to keep the ring at their store the whole time. I'm not sure when I'll be back to my home here in this particular state and I didn't want to go without my ring for that long so I used the store with the 2-3 day appraisal. Maybe this store in this lower cost of living town isn't used to higher quality rings/diamonds or had some bias when they saw me drop it off (I walked in wearing gym clothes and messy hair), but it seems like an appraisal is an appraisal right? All my friends who have gone through this process said their appraisals came in at 1.5 - 2x the cost they bought their rings for.

Here are the GIA specs on the diamond:

VS1, G, 1.8ct, Cushion Brilliant Modified (wound up getting the X factor style over H&A or 8 facet cut cushion brilliant)

Obviously I need to get another appraisal for insurance but is this common? Should I explain who designed the setting or even show them what I paid for everything? Not sure how much you can persuade an appraiser but I def want to get this insured for around $20k or so.

appraisal.jpg
 
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phaskellhall said:
I just got my diamond back from Victor Canera and it's absolutely amazing (I'll post photos soon). Before shipping the loose diamond to him, I had it insured through Jewelers Mutual but they said they only will insure it for 30 days as a loose stone because typically they don't cover non set diamonds in engagement rings.

I bought the ring from ID Jewelers in NYC and know that I got a great deal on it at best and a fair market deal at worst (I've researched a ton of stones before buying).

I paid $14,000 for the center stone and then around $3500-4500 for the VC Emilya single halo platinum setting. Total for the ring was around $17500 - $19000 with shipping/tax/etc. The appraisal came back at $13,000! That's $1000 less than I paid for the stone itself not even counting the custom setting!!!
Click to expand...

You bought the ring from IDJ, but your ring is VC Emilya single halo. And you got your diamond back from Victor Canera, which implies that you bought the diamond from Victor Canera, but it is a cushion modified brilliant, not an antique cushion.
 
flyingpig said:
You bought the ring from IDJ, but your ring is VC Emilya single halo. And you got your diamond back from Victor Canera, which implies that you bought the diamond from Victor Canera, but it is a cushion modified brilliant, not an antique cushion.
Click to expand...
Agreed, I am a little confused here.
 
I *think* OP meant she bought the diamond from IDJ and had a VC setting made for it.

Either way, OP, clearly the appraiser either did not have enough information to detail that it was a custom setting and/or is unaware that there was a custom setting involved. Did you by chance provide them with a receipt or information from Victor Canera about the setting that you had made? I would strongly encourage you to ensure that any appraisal includes very specific details not only about your diamond but also the setting, if it was custom, what the quality of diamonds are in the setting, etc. It seems like the appraiser figures you just got a random setting and plopped a random diamond into it. This is not surprising if it was just a random jewelry store appraisal. I’ve seen them myself before, and this is why there are recommended appraisers on here to use so that you can make sure your items are fully, accurately & properly documented for insurance purposes.
 
Ignoring the issue with the appraisal being lower- why don’t you insure it with a bill of sale. If it’s a new purchase most insurance companies will take a bill of sale as a proof of value
 
Is it not also an issue that some insurance companies wouldn’t replace a VC setting with a VC setting or cash equivalent?
 
I know it is a pain in the "a.." but it would be beneficial for you and for your appraiser to go over your paperwork and to explain to the appraiser that first they need to see the price IDJ sold the diamond for and how much Canera charged for the mounting. Ask the appraiser to make a correction in the nicest possible way. Give the process a chance to succeed and likely it will.

Appraisers often are not well versed in doing appraisals. Sad, but true.
Any appraiser who is still using one of these pre-printed forms like the one you were provided is likely a long way from current training and standards now present in the field of appraisal.

However, since they were paid to do the work, give them what you have and let them produce a second try at it. Ask for about a 10 to 15% cushion over cost and see if they will simply say "okay". They might, just to eliminate your situation and to get you off their back. Play nice and save yourself the problem of doing the entire thing over. This is an imperfect situation, but getting past it is better than really re-doing it.

Definitely ask this appraiser if they happen to be a member of any appraisal organization. If they are, their report may not be up to current requirements. You should pursue a complaint after you have been satisfied if you wish them to do better work for the next client they get. A complaint is really for everyone's benefit, not just for your personal problem. Complaints to national organizations do get acted upon and appraisers are educated and improved by such problematic feedback. It is helpful to make legitimate complaints, but get your own problem solved first.
 
Niel said:
Ignoring the issue with the appraisal being lower- why don’t you insure it with a bill of sale. If it’s a new purchase most insurance companies will take a bill of sale as a proof of value
Click to expand...
Yup, that's what I did with my new CBI diamond and I didn't have any issues.
 
Use your receipts for insurance.
 
The purpose of a good appraisal is to identify the items in the appraisal so that they can be replaced in kind if it should ever be necessary.

In this case, you bought the diamond and the ring from different vendors. Nothing in this appraisal identifies either vendor. So, if the ring needs to be replaced, you would have been much better off using your receipts for insurance than having this appraisal done which will not cover the cost of replacement of your items.

The form that you were given was outdated when I went through my gemological training at GIA in 1975.

In my opinion, you need to hire an appraiser who is current and willing to identify the vendors involved, especially if your diamond is a branded diamond, and also especially since your ring was custom designed and executed by a known designer and you do not ever want it replaced with a generic ring of a similar look, but not even close to an equal quality.

A good appraisal that can be easily updated by the appraiser is always a good idea, as your insurance company may insist on a new appraisal after a few years rather than using the invoices.

The product you bought deserves to be protected properly.

Wink
 
flyingpig said:
You bought the ring from IDJ, but your ring is VC Emilya single halo. And you got your diamond back from Victor Canera, which implies that you bought the diamond from Victor Canera, but it is a cushion modified brilliant, not an antique cushion.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I meant to say the Diamond not the ring. Diamond was bought through ID and the setting was built by VC. It is not an antique cushion diamond. It is also not any sort of branded diamond, just a sourced diamond from ID Jewelers.
 
the_mother_thing said:
I *think* OP meant she bought the diamond from IDJ and had a VC setting made for it.

Either way, OP, clearly the appraiser either did not have enough information to detail that it was a custom setting and/or is unaware that there was a custom setting involved. Did you by chance provide them with a receipt or information from Victor Canera about the setting that you had made? I would strongly encourage you to ensure that any appraisal includes very specific details not only about your diamond but also the setting, if it was custom, what the quality of diamonds are in the setting, etc. It seems like the appraiser figures you just got a random setting and plopped a random diamond into it. This is not surprising if it was just a random jewelry store appraisal. I’ve seen them myself before, and this is why there are recommended appraisers on here to use so that you can make sure your items are fully, accurately & properly documented for insurance purposes.
Click to expand...

Not just a custom setting - a hand-forged custom setting with an extremely high level of craftsmanship.

Yes, OP, you need to go back and tell them what needs to be included in the appraisal. (Who made your ring, that it is handforged, photos, etc, the type and light performance of your diamond, the faceting pattern style - if you have an ASET image that needs to be included, etc). Or you could just insure with your receipt.
 
Make sure you have "Agreed Value" coverage. We did not, and when we had to make an insurance claim, we had to fight my insurer to replace with a like value item. With agreed value, they company would have just written a check.
 
Agreed value policies cost more though. If you know you will want to replace with like kind, a good appraisal as the basis for the insurance is a good way to take the fight away from the adjuster to replace with like kind. Depending on your state, the insurer is liable for damages in addition to. the replacement if they try to avoid paying what is in the appraisal. In Idaho it is treble damages plus the replacement. Maybe that is why none of my clients in Idaho ever had a problem with getting an item replaced in like kind.

Wink
 
Ok, here. My setting is from Victor. My diamond is an OEC. I just told the appraiser how much my diamond was, and he just tacked on the cost of my setting. The appraisal says setting by Victor Canera. My insurance policy says Victor Canera ring. Done.
 
Niel said:
Ignoring the issue with the appraisal being lower- why don’t you insure it with a bill of sale. If it’s a new purchase most insurance companies will take a bill of sale as a proof of value
Click to expand...
YES, this is exactly what I was going to say. Your receipts will be your insured value as that is was it cost you to get it.
The only caveat here is I don’t know if they will do it this way given the diamond and mounting were not on one receipt, purchased together. This you will need to investigate. I do know that for some carriers, if you already had the diamond previously (i.e., it was not a “new” diamond purchase) and you just had it reset in a new mounting it wouldn’t work this way... you would have to go the appraisal route. But that is not your situation.
If JM will not accept 2 receipts on a recent purchase, there are other companies, but they may be a replacement policy (i.e., Gemshield), whereas JM pays you out for the insured amt and you do what you want with the money. I can tell you that Gemshield is much less expensive than JM.
I’m assuming your stone has a laboratory grading report? If so, that info should be on your receipt for the stone which would then be in the description on your policy, including report #.
As for appraisers, as a point of reference, they are not all created equal. Many “jewelers” will write an appraisal yet they are really not qualified. You should source someone certified to specifically do this via either AGSL’s credential, or through GIA’s Certified Appraiser designation. These are people who are already graduate gemologists (amongst other earned designations) as well as trained specifically on Jewelry & diamond assessments, They understand high quality stones as well as the nuisances and craftsmanship of custom mountings.
 
Wink said:
Agreed value policies cost more though. If you know you will want to replace with like kind, a good appraisal as the basis for the insurance is a good way to take the fight away from the adjuster to replace with like kind. Depending on your state, the insurer is liable for damages in addition to. the replacement if they try to avoid paying what is in the appraisal. In Idaho it is treble damages plus the replacement. Maybe that is why none of my clients in Idaho ever had a problem with getting an item replaced in like kind.

Wink
Click to expand...
LLJsmom said:
Ok, here. My setting is from Victor. My diamond is an OEC. I just told the appraiser how much my diamond was, and he just tacked on the cost of my setting. The appraisal says setting by Victor Canera. My insurance policy says Victor Canera ring. Done.
Click to expand...

Exactly. As @Wink already mentioned in a previous post, many appraisers are not familiar with different setting qualities. In doing the research for the appraisal, your appraiser probably looked at prices for a cast, mass-market halo setting, which can be had for $1500ish. If you go back to him and show him the price you paid for the hand-forged designer halo (and the diamond), then I'm sure he would modify the appraisal accordingly. Just give him the receipts and ask him to appraise it for cost + 5-10% to cover inflation for a while. If you paid fair market value for the diamond and setting (which I'm sure you did if you worked with IDJ for the diamond), then most appraisers will have no problem doing this.

And as mentioned in the posts above, make sure that the appraisal EXPLICITLY states that the setting is hand forged and from Victor Canera. Also, make sure that the appraisal included several photographs of the setting (our appraiser included photos in the appraisal) with at least one macro shot of the Victor Canera maker's mark on the shank. If your appraisal doesn't explicitly indicate a hand-forged VC setting and your policy is a "replace with like kind" policy, then the insurer will most definitely try to replace the setting with a $1500 cast halo, and you'll need to fight tooth and nail to get anything more than that.
 
Is this an independent appraiser or one that works in a jewelry store?
 
PintoBean said:
Is this an independent appraiser or one that works in a jewelry store?
Click to expand...

AFAIK, this was an independent appraiser who comes into a jewelry store once a week to handle their appraisals. Not sure what that falls under.
 
TreeScientist said:
Exactly. As @Wink already mentioned in a previous post, many appraisers are not familiar with different setting qualities. In doing the research for the appraisal, your appraiser probably looked at prices for a cast, mass-market halo setting, which can be had for $1500ish. If you go back to him and show him the price you paid for the hand-forged designer halo (and the diamond), then I'm sure he would modify the appraisal accordingly. Just give him the receipts and ask him to appraise it for cost + 5-10% to cover inflation for a while. If you paid fair market value for the diamond and setting (which I'm sure you did if you worked with IDJ for the diamond), then most appraisers will have no problem doing this.

And as mentioned in the posts above, make sure that the appraisal EXPLICITLY states that the setting is hand forged and from Victor Canera. Also, make sure that the appraisal included several photographs of the setting (our appraiser included photos in the appraisal) with at least one macro shot of the Victor Canera maker's mark on the shank. If your appraisal doesn't explicitly indicate a hand-forged VC setting and your policy is a "replace with like kind" policy, then the insurer will most definitely try to replace the setting with a $1500 cast halo, and you'll need to fight tooth and nail to get anything more than that.
Click to expand...

I didn't submit photos to the appraiser but she had the ring in her possession for 30 mins while she wrote up the appraisal. I am a professional photographer and can take photos on my own. Once I have the appraisal, can't I just add my own photos, zip the whole appraisal up in a PDF file and submit that to the insurance company?
 
headlight said:
YES, this is exactly what I was going to say. Your receipts will be your insured value as that is was it cost you to get it.
The only caveat here is I don’t know if they will do it this way given the diamond and mounting were not on one receipt, purchased together. This you will need to investigate. I do know that for some carriers, if you already had the diamond previously (i.e., it was not a “new” diamond purchase) and you just had it reset in a new mounting it wouldn’t work this way... you would have to go the appraisal route. But that is not your situation.
If JM will not accept 2 receipts on a recent purchase, there are other companies, but they may be a replacement policy (i.e., Gemshield), whereas JM pays you out for the insured amt and you do what you want with the money. I can tell you that Gemshield is much less expensive than JM.
I’m assuming your stone has a laboratory grading report? If so, that info should be on your receipt for the stone which would then be in the description on your policy, including report #.
As for appraisers, as a point of reference, they are not all created equal. Many “jewelers” will write an appraisal yet they are really not qualified. You should source someone certified to specifically do this via either AGSL’s credential, or through GIA’s Certified Appraiser designation. These are people who are already graduate gemologists (amongst other earned designations) as well as trained specifically on Jewelry & diamond assessments, They understand high quality stones as well as the nuisances and craftsmanship of custom mountings.
Click to expand...

I was told that you don't want to use your receipts because then your ring will be valued at exactly what you paid for it. You ideally want it appraised for 10-20% more so that if it is lost, you can replace it easily as inflation increases the cost of goods. Most insurance policies won't go up significantly with a 10% increase in value and it safeguards any issues you have finding a similar replacement. Also, if you happened to get a good deal on a diamond, or if the ring designer ups his prices on a custom setting, you want to make sure your insurance takes that into account. This is the correct thinking right?
 
62D056B9-0E7A-4568-BE02-D8D9D17BB0A0.jpeg

Boom! This should work now right?
 

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headlight said:
* * *
If JM will not accept 2 receipts on a recent purchase, there are other companies, but they may be a replacement policy (i.e., Gemshield), whereas JM pays you out for the insured amt and you do what you want with the money. I can tell you that Gemshield is much less expensive than JM.
I’m assuming your stone has a laboratory grading report? If so, that info should be on your receipt for the stone which would then be in the description on your policy, including report #.
As for appraisers, as a point of reference, they are not all created equal. Many “jewelers” will write an appraisal yet they are really not qualified. You should source someone certified to specifically do this via either AGSL’s credential, or through GIA’s Certified Appraiser designation. These are people who are already graduate gemologists (amongst other earned designations) as well as trained specifically on Jewelry & diamond assessments, They understand high quality stones as well as the nuisances and craftsmanship of custom mountings.
[boldface added by MollyMalone]
Click to expand...
A couple of FYIs:
  • Jewelers Mutual's standard policy is not one whereby you can expect they will write you a no-strings-attached check. JM's "selling point," repeated on a number of their webpages, is that you use a jeweler of your choice (i.e., unlike most other insurance companies that offer personal jewelry policies, JM doesn't dictate the source of the replacement or repair) & the jeweler is who receives payment from JM. See, e.g., the first FAQ -- Can I receive cash? -- on their Claims info page:
JM will write a free-and-clear check only if the coverage amount is lower than what it would cost to repair/replace the item -- or if they agreed to issue an "agreed-upon value" policy with the more expensive premiums.
  • Also, GIA does not confer a Certified Appraiser designation; appraising isn't even a component of the coursework for any of the certificates that GIA issues. (GIA has occasionally been a co-sponsor for appraiser education forums sponsored by appraisal societies/associations).
phaskellhall said:
AFAIK, this was an independent appraiser who comes into a jewelry store once a week to handle their appraisals. Not sure what that falls under.
Click to expand...
Doesn't seem that Ms. Walsh has any recognized, appraising credentials since she lists none. The initials that follow G.I.A. underneath her signature stand for the certificates/credential given upon successful completion of these GIA programs: Graduate Gemologist (the fundamental GIA program), Graduate Jeweler ("bench" jeweler basics), and the Applied Jewelry Professional credential -- a cheaper, less time-consuming & less rigorous (final exams are "open book"), online learning experience that GIA says is appropriate for, e.g., jewelry store sales assistants, pawnbrokers, and TV shopping hosts.
https://www.gia.edu/gem-education/program-applied-jewelry-professional

For future reference, look for an appraiser with such credentials as
Master Gemologist Appraiser - American Society of Appraisers
Independent Certified Gemologist Appraiser (or Certified Gemologist Appraiser) - American Gem Society
Certified Senior Member or Certified Master Appraiser - National Association of Jewelry Appraisers
 
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Is there a way to search for these appraisers? I just moved to Puerto Rico and imagine it could be hard finding an appraiser there.


MollyMalone said:
A couple of FYIs:
  • Jewelers Mutual's standard policy is not one whereby you can expect they will write you a no-strings-attached check. JM's "selling point," repeated on a number of their webpages, is that you use a jeweler of your choice (i.e., unlike most other insurance companies that offer personal jewelry policies, JM doesn't dictate the source of the replacement or repair) & the jeweler is who receives payment from JM. See, e.g., the first FAQ -- Can I receive cash? -- on their Claims info page:
JM will write a free-and-clear check only if the coverage amount is lower than what it would cost to repair/replace the item -- or if they agreed to issue an "agreed-upon value" policy with the more expensive premiums.
  • Also, GIA does not confer a Certified Appraiser designation; appraising isn't even a component of the coursework for any of the certificates that GIA issues. (GIA has occasionally been a co-sponsor for appraiser education forums sponsored by appraisal societies/associations).

Doesn't seem that Ms. Walsh has any recognized, appraising credentials since she lists none. The initials that follow G.I.A. underneath her signature stand for the certificates/credential given upon successful completion of these GIA programs: Graduate Gemologist (the fundamental GIA program), Graduate Jeweler ("bench" jeweler basics), and the Applied Jewelry Professional credential -- a cheaper, less time-consuming & less rigorous (final exams are "open book"), online learning experience that GIA says is appropriate for, e.g., jewelry store sales assistants, pawnbrokers, and TV shopping hosts.
https://www.gia.edu/gem-education/program-applied-jewelry-professional

For future reference, look for an appraiser with such credentials as
Master Gemologist Appraiser - American Society of Appraisers
Independent Certified Gemologist Appraiser (or Certified Gemologist Appraiser) - American Gem Society
Certified Senior Member or Certified Master Appraiser - National Association of Jewelry Appraisers
Click to expand...
Y
 
phaskellhall said:
Is there a way to search for these appraisers? I just moved to Puerto Rico and imagine it could be hard finding an appraiser there.
Y
Click to expand...
Found one in San Juan for you:
https://www.tasadoresdejoyas.com/
The National Association of Jewelry Appraisers website confirms that Ms. Nayor-Cohn is indeed a NAJA Certified Senior Member.
https://en.tasadoresdejoyas.com/ProfessionalAssociations/index.html
And unlike more than a few appraisers, she has made the investment in a GIA-certified master color [grading] set.
https://en.tasadoresdejoyas.com/GemologistAdvantages/index.html

So she seems like a promising possibility :))
 
Let me suggest. Have you asked if Victor will do the appraisal for you...
 
LLJsmom said:
Let me suggest. Have you asked if Victor will do the appraisal for you...
Click to expand...


No I did not. Is it too late now that he has sent the ring back to me? I really don’t want to mail it all the way back to California only to have it shipped all the way back to Puerto Rico.
 
phaskellhall said:
No I did not. Is it too late now that he has sent the ring back to me? I really don’t want to mail it all the way back to California only to have it shipped all the way back to Puerto Rico.
Click to expand...
No I don’t think it’s too late. Can’t hurt to ask. Just email them.
 
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