Any Other Independents In The Crowd?

[ksinger]

No political party represents me.
I think both parties are just as corrupt.
I think the press is just as corrupt and dishonest as the political parties if not more so.

I am seriously wondering if anarchy isn't a better answer.

Then, at this point, you are no longer an American. The American identity is a fragile thing that really only needs the acceptance of a few ideals, namely belief in universal opportunity, equality and a system of government that trusts the input of it's citizens. Within your statement lie the roots of treason, a profound distrust or distaste for your fellow citizens. "The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in the stars but in ourselves", We, the People ARE the government. It is accurately representing the divisions that have been fanned within the electorate for 40 years. One of the brilliant concepts behind our system of government is that it is designed to slow or even stop movement when the electorate is this divided. If the parties are corrupt, we (including you) are corrupt because they are made up of the people. If the press is corrupt, we all are. If a party doesn't represent you, how much effort and involvement have you put into the party closest to you? Ours is a participatory form of government, if you choose NOT to participate then, you're right, no party represents you. They represent people that ARE involved.

Congress, warts and all, DOES represent the voting population. While it may be forcing us to look at our lesser angels, it is US, we the people. Trump, warts and all, DOES represent us. The press, flaws and all, DOES represent us. The political parties, as ponderous and inefficient as they are, DO represent us. If you don't like it, be an American and get involved. It's how the system was designed. And you can quit looking at that guy you hate staring back from the mirror.

I want to frame this and put it on my wall.

Ah, to be so loved for my eloquent verbiage!

Alas, it's true confession time. As has happened many times in the last decade, I've read what I know will be a particularly interesting and/or provocative post from PS, to the DH (aka - The American History Teacher, or more aptly, "my tame historian"), to be then inundated by point after point, and similar historical examples that support/refute, and lots of political arcana, all delivered so quickly that I can't possibly take notes, or write any of it down, so I generally don't bother trying and end up with all this great stuff forlornly knocking around in my head with no chance of getting out. But, as has not happened many times in the last decade - as in this is only the second time, he consented to just shut up and write his response already.

I wish he'd seriously consider writing a book on something. Boy can turn a phrase when he puts his mind to it.

 

[AGBF]

Looking forward to it, K!

edited to add: You misled me! I thought we were going to be treated to a new essay! I think you were saying he wrote the last response you posted. I am sooooo disappointed! Now I have nothing to look forward to doing when I come home from visiting my daughter in the psychiatric hospital! (whine whine).

Deb

 

[missy]

Looking forward to it, K!

edited to add: You misled me! I thought we were going to be treated to a new essay! I think you were saying he wrote the last response you posted. I am sooooo disappointed! Now I have nothing to look forward to doing when I come home from visiting my daughter in the psychiatric hospital! (whine whine).

Deb

Haha we need to convince Karen to convince her dh to join PS.
Pretty please Karen?

 

[ksinger]

Looking forward to it, K!

edited to add: You misled me! I thought we were going to be treated to a new essay! I think you were saying he wrote the last response you posted. I am sooooo disappointed! Now I have nothing to look forward to doing when I come home from visiting my daughter in the psychiatric hospital! (whine whine).

Deb

He just laughed and said, "Nope, nope. Gotta kick the monkey (or put a quarter in the slot) if you want it to chatter." He also said something about not being able to answer if I won't give up the keyboard.

 

[Karl_K]

No political party represents me.
I think both parties are just as corrupt.
I think the press is just as corrupt and dishonest as the political parties if not more so.

I am seriously wondering if anarchy isn't a better answer.

Then, at this point, you are no longer an American. The American identity is a fragile thing that really only needs the acceptance of a few ideals, namely belief in universal opportunity, equality and a system of government that trusts the input of it's citizens. Within your statement lie the roots of treason, a profound distrust or distaste for your fellow citizens. "The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in the stars but in ourselves", We, the People ARE the government. It is accurately representing the divisions that have been fanned within the electorate for 40 years. One of the brilliant concepts behind our system of government is that it is designed to slow or even stop movement when the electorate is this divided. If the parties are corrupt, we (including you) are corrupt because they are made up of the people. If the press is corrupt, we all are. If a party doesn't represent you, how much effort and involvement have you put into the party closest to you? Ours is a participatory form of government, if you choose NOT to participate then, you're right, no party represents you. They represent people that ARE involved.

Congress, warts and all, DOES represent the voting population. While it may be forcing us to look at our lesser angels, it is US, we the people. Trump, warts and all, DOES represent us. The press, flaws and all, DOES represent us. The political parties, as ponderous and inefficient as they are, DO represent us. If you don't like it, be an American and get involved. It's how the system was designed. And you can quit looking at that guy you hate staring back from the mirror.

Interesting that you consider it treason for someone to look at the political parties and see the corruption.
Interesting that it you consider it treason not to align with one or the other of the parties.

Interesting that you see someone who does not like some things about the government today as not being American.
I counter with questioning government is the most American thing someone can do.
This country was founded on questioning government and it is an American tradition and right to question government.

Does the government today really represent the people or does it represent the money it takes to get elected and the lack of choices in most elections?
What the 2 party system does is limit choices and by limiting choices it leaves many with no good choice.
So many end up voting for what they consider the lesser of 2 evils which is still evil.

America is not political parties, America is not the government.

 

[redwood66]

Along with photo identification. Remove the word attain though. No voting until citizenship.

Not to be argumentative, but the incidence of non-citizens voting is a subject that has been beaten to death and there's no conclusive evidence that any non-citizens are voting in the US. The requirement for photo identification to vote is substantially a voter suppression technique used by Republicans to keep poor black people from voting. I'm not opposed to requiring photo ID to vote, but I think if we make that a requirement, the states should be providing IDs to residents free of charge.

+1000000. I dont have a problem with ID's, but I don't like how the "voter ID laws" have been set up, since it is unfair to poor individuals. If states were to provide free IDs then I am totally fine with requiring ID.

I am all for no cost id's if they are indeed too poor to pay for them. Many things you do need id welfare benefits, car insurance, medicaid, unemployment, rent, blood donations, prescriptions, hotels, opening a bank account, cigarettes, alcohol, and more the list is very long. So the idea poor individuals can't afford it is disingenuous.

 

[whitewave]

No political party represents me.
I think both parties are just as corrupt.
I think the press is just as corrupt and dishonest as the political parties if not more so.

I am seriously wondering if anarchy isn't a better answer.

Then, at this point, you are no longer an American. The American identity is a fragile thing that really only needs the acceptance of a few ideals, namely belief in universal opportunity, equality and a system of government that trusts the input of it's citizens. Within your statement lie the roots of treason, a profound distrust or distaste for your fellow citizens. "The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in the stars but in ourselves", We, the People ARE the government. It is accurately representing the divisions that have been fanned within the electorate for 40 years. One of the brilliant concepts behind our system of government is that it is designed to slow or even stop movement when the electorate is this divided. If the parties are corrupt, we (including you) are corrupt because they are made up of the people. If the press is corrupt, we all are. If a party doesn't represent you, how much effort and involvement have you put into the party closest to you? Ours is a participatory form of government, if you choose NOT to participate then, you're right, no party represents you. They represent people that ARE involved.

Congress, warts and all, DOES represent the voting population. While it may be forcing us to look at our lesser angels, it is US, we the people. Trump, warts and all, DOES represent us. The press, flaws and all, DOES represent us. The political parties, as ponderous and inefficient as they are, DO represent us. If you don't like it, be an American and get involved. It's how the system was designed. And you can quit looking at that guy you hate staring back from the mirror.

Interesting that you consider it treason for someone to look at the political parties and see the corruption.
Interesting that it you consider it treason not to align with one or the other of the parties.

Interesting that you see someone who does not like some things about the government today as not being American.
I counter with questioning government is the most American thing someone can do.
This country was founded on questioning government and it is an American tradition and right to question government.

Does the government today really represent the people or does it represent the money it takes to get elected and the lack of choices in most elections?
What the 2 party system does is limit choices and by limiting choices it leaves many with no good choice.
So many end up voting for what they consider the lesser of 2 evils which is still evil.

America is not political parties, America is not the government.

I'm officially registered republican, but I vote purple. I plan to change to no party as soon as I ever get around to it. If I had to lean somewhere,it would be lean libertarian. Karl and I could have drinks and talk for hours.

"Government that governs best, governs least"

(And, yes, I was actually elected to a political position! I can say that I have attempted to participate in the slime ball sticky muck we call government, and that is why I want nothing to do with either party now)

 

[whitewave]

No political party represents me.
I think both parties are just as corrupt.
I think the press is just as corrupt and dishonest as the political parties if not more so.

I am seriously wondering if anarchy isn't a better answer.

Then, at this point, you are no longer an American. The American identity is a fragile thing that really only needs the acceptance of a few ideals, namely belief in universal opportunity, equality and a system of government that trusts the input of it's citizens. Within your statement lie the roots of treason, a profound distrust or distaste for your fellow citizens. "The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in the stars but in ourselves", We, the People ARE the government. It is accurately representing the divisions that have been fanned within the electorate for 40 years. One of the brilliant concepts behind our system of government is that it is designed to slow or even stop movement when the electorate is this divided. If the parties are corrupt, we (including you) are corrupt because they are made up of the people. If the press is corrupt, we all are. If a party doesn't represent you, how much effort and involvement have you put into the party closest to you? Ours is a participatory form of government, if you choose NOT to participate then, you're right, no party represents you. They represent people that ARE involved.

Congress, warts and all, DOES represent the voting population. While it may be forcing us to look at our lesser angels, it is US, we the people. Trump, warts and all, DOES represent us. The press, flaws and all, DOES represent us. The political parties, as ponderous and inefficient as they are, DO represent us. If you don't like it, be an American and get involved. It's how the system was designed. And you can quit looking at that guy you hate staring back from the mirror.

After my little toe dip in the deep end, I have come to the conclusion that only mentally ill sadistic narcissists run for political office.

I gotta tell you, I think your concept that the "4th estate" (press) represents us is both naive and antiquated. They don't follow their own rules any more of objectivity and have morphed into nothing but "5th estate" bloggers with a TV and web presence.

 

[ksinger]

No political party represents me.
I think both parties are just as corrupt.
I think the press is just as corrupt and dishonest as the political parties if not more so.

I am seriously wondering if anarchy isn't a better answer.

Then, at this point, you are no longer an American. The American identity is a fragile thing that really only needs the acceptance of a few ideals, namely belief in universal opportunity, equality and a system of government that trusts the input of it's citizens. Within your statement lie the roots of treason, a profound distrust or distaste for your fellow citizens. "The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in the stars but in ourselves", We, the People ARE the government. It is accurately representing the divisions that have been fanned within the electorate for 40 years. One of the brilliant concepts behind our system of government is that it is designed to slow or even stop movement when the electorate is this divided. If the parties are corrupt, we (including you) are corrupt because they are made up of the people. If the press is corrupt, we all are. If a party doesn't represent you, how much effort and involvement have you put into the party closest to you? Ours is a participatory form of government, if you choose NOT to participate then, you're right, no party represents you. They represent people that ARE involved.

Congress, warts and all, DOES represent the voting population. While it may be forcing us to look at our lesser angels, it is US, we the people. Trump, warts and all, DOES represent us. The press, flaws and all, DOES represent us. The political parties, as ponderous and inefficient as they are, DO represent us. If you don't like it, be an American and get involved. It's how the system was designed. And you can quit looking at that guy you hate staring back from the mirror.

Interesting that you consider it treason for someone to look at the political parties and see the corruption. This is not what was said.
Interesting that it you consider it treason not to align with one or the other of the parties. This is not what was said.

You are deliberately misunderstanding, trying to deflect. You said, "I am seriously wondering if anarchy isn't a better answer". If you truly think anarchy would be better, then you are standing on the cusp of advocating the overthrow of government, hence, the root of treason.

Interesting that you see someone who does not like some things about the government today as not being American.
I counter with questioning government is the most American thing someone can do.
This country was founded on questioning government and it is an American tradition and right to question government.
You don't question, you blanketly condemn. You're not saying some people in the parties (aka - politicians), or the press are misguided, you are saying those groups are corrupt, meaning all of the people in them. (Those are big, blanket claims that you really should substantiate you know. But of course you can't. I also notice that it's always everyone else's politicians who are corrupt, but somehow never the ones I vote for. ) You are condemning entire systems, not some flawed portion of those systems. That is un-American because WE are the system, by virtue of our participation in it.

Does the government today really represent the people or does it represent the money it takes to get elected and the lack of choices in most elections? Yes. The government does represent us. If money has a too-large role, WE allowed that to happen. We supported by action or inaction, policy decisions that led us to this result. But the people being elected do represent their constituents. As for supposed lack of choices in candidates, people volunteer to run. No one is being drafted. Perhaps it's possible that if no one represents your views, then there simply aren't enough people who share your views, and your views don't draw enough votes to get someone elected. Elective government isn't made of proportional samples, it's made up of people who choose to run and get elected...by a vote of the PEOPLE.

What the 2 party system does is limit choices and by limiting choices it leaves many with no good choice.
First, it's not about you, it's about the 100s of millions of Americans that participate. Secondly, the 2 party system has functioned since the 18th century because it has been a convenient method for organizing people with similar views, not identical ones. If you choose to belong to a party, you have at least as much, and in reality more, say in who becomes that party's candidate, as any average voter since the beginning of the country. Things are not substantially worse than they've ever been with the party system, you just started noticing and are pissed. Welcome to the way it's always been.

So many end up voting for what they consider the lesser of 2 evils which is still evil.
No, it's not. It's the logical, if sometimes unpalatable, choice between 2 less than perfect options. This is hardly new. What you're complaining about is a lack of perfection in candidates. You're also illogically insisting that the parties you've said you hate, still owe you a candidate you "like". Neither of the groups you refuse to join, owes you a darn thing. No candidate is perfect, no platform perfectly aligns. It's a choice between 2 human candidates with human imperfections.

Most of you wish to say, "I'M an INDEPENDENT!! and "None of the parties represent ME.", because that translates as, "I've given up on the whole thing because it's easier than sorting out the complexities, or getting involved. Even those who've been involved, have checked out, hoping to preserve their self-image. It's all a form of "So I'll absolve myself of any messy involvement by conveniently declaring that everyone over there is hopelessly corrupt. But...I'm independent so I'm pure!" Except you're not. Declaring oneself as independent has everything to do with self-image and zero to do with how politics has EVER worked in the US. So good luck with either purity or reliably getting enough people with similar views elected when you have given up on parties. Good luck with being "A Party of One!" You either ally with others who are similar in views, but not exact, or you vanish into irrelevancy. This is how it's always been in the US. I feel like there's this constant stream of people who just woke up yesterday, saw a bit of the reality that's always been there, and are astonished.

America is not political parties, America is not the government.
Yes, it is, both counts. But I'm outta steam for any more elaboration. And yes, this whole response was me this time, not the tame historian.

 

[whitewave]

I thinnk you misunderstand anarchism, ksinger. It can't be generalized like you tried to do there.

Have either you or your husband been elected to a position? I ask because you have a pie in the sky, textbook feeling of how government works.

The reality is VERY different. It's so slimy; its disgusting.

"this is how it's always been in the US" --------------> this means nothing. Past events do not predict future events.