And now for some good news... Rove is going down

[rubydick]

While still unconfirmed, it seems the keeper of the brain-that-never-was is about to be indicted. Gotta love the rule of law, eh? Perjury. Fitting, ain't it?

Rove Informs White House He Will Be Indicted

Here's an excerpt:

"Within the last week, Karl Rove told President Bush and Chief of Staff Joshua Bolten, as well as a few other high level administration officials, that he will be indicted in the CIA leak case and will immediately resign his White House job when the special counsel publicly announces the charges against him, according to sources.

Details of Rove's discussions with the president and Bolten have spread through the corridors of the White House where low-level staffers and senior officials were trying to determine how the indictment would impact an administration that has been mired in a number of high-profile political scandals for nearly a year, said a half-dozen White House aides and two senior officials who work at the Republican National Committee."

Now all we have left to indict is that empty cranial cavity that seemingly believes he actually had a mandate. And then convict him and throw him in jail. Personally, I'd like to see he and Osama occupying the same cell. Now that would be justice...

Listen to this and then tell me Bush doesn't belong in jail:

Iraqi Mental Health Deteriorates with Violence

 

[movie zombie]

amen, brother richard, amen!

movie zombie

eta: i'd also like to see mr cheney, ms rice, et al. in a cell. perhaps they'd like to have some of those civil liberties and the bill of rights then. oh, and perhaps they'd like not to experience torture. but that's right, cheney says its no worse than fraternity hazing. so silly of me to forget.

 

[AGBF]

The pity is that no one remembers that Bush promised to punish anyone caught leaking information about Valerie Plame! Bush will get off scot free because no one reads about, follows, or understands the entire Wilson/Plame affair.

I am cynical. American acceptance of the phone companies that we pay turning over private information on us makes me even more cynical. I''d like to start a class action suit against the phone companies. When criminal doesn''t work, go civil!

 

[sunkist]

Date: 5/12/2006 9:04:11 PM
Author: AGBF

I am cynical. American acceptance of the phone companies that we pay turning over private information on us makes me even more cynical. I''d like to start a class action suit against the phone companies. When criminal doesn''t work, go civil!

AGBF, uless you are a terrorist, the government couldn''t care less about your phone conversations

... Tell me this, if you had a chance to listen in on a terrorist''s phone conversation on the chance that you could save your family from their evil plots, wouldn''t you do it?!?!

 

[rubydick]

Date: 5/12/2006 8:58:33 PM
Author: movie zombie
amen, brother richard, amen!

movie zombie

eta: i''d also like to see mr cheney, ms rice, et al. in a cell. perhaps they''d like to have some of those civil liberties and the bill of rights then. oh, and perhaps they''d like not to experience torture. but that''s right, cheney says its no worse than fraternity hazing. so silly of me to forget.

Yes. Perhaps when all are in the same cell, somebody could tell Cheney that the season has jus... naw, can''t say that. What would be sweet is if they have to run to the ACLU to help defend them, a la Limbaugh. I can see Bill Bennett now working on a book about the children morals left behind...

 

[AGBF]

Date: 5/12/2006 9:09:40 PM
Author: sunkist
AGBF, uless you are a terrorist, the government couldn't care less about your phone conversations

Then unless I am a terrorist, they shouldn't collect personal information about me.

 

[rubydick]

Date: 5/12/2006 9:09:40 PM
Author: sunkist

Date: 5/12/2006 9:04:11 PM

Author: AGBF

I am cynical. American acceptance of the phone companies that we pay turning over private information on us makes me even more cynical. I'd like to start a class action suit against the phone companies. When criminal doesn't work, go civil!

AGBF, uless you are a terrorist, the government couldn't care less about your phone conversations

... Tell me this, if you had a chance to listen in on a terrorist's phone conversation on the chance that you could save your family from their evil plots, wouldn't you do it?!?!

Sunny,

Delighted to meet you. You probably missed the story about the Portland lawyer who the FBI positively ID'd as being involved in the Madrid bombings. Except that the Spanish police said it wasn't true. And so it wasn't. So take a look at this. Interested to hear your take:

Potential Evidence Surfaces of Bush's Illegal Spying

And then there is the little-reported story of the German who US intel agents "disappeared" while on holiday with his family in Macedonia, rendered to Afghanistan, tortured him, then when they realized they had someone who had nothing to do with terrorism, dumped him back in Albania. Ever since I passed Albania on a ferry to Corfu in 1976, I wanted to visit. Damn, why didn't they pick me?

ACLU Files Landmark Lawsuit Challenging CIA’s “Extraordinary Rendition” of Innocent Man

And what has the US govt. response been? We cannot allow him to sue, because that would endanger national security. Feel safer knowing that? With citizens like you and a government like this, who needs terrorists? Osama wins, we lose.

 

[rubydick]

Date: 5/12/2006 9:09:40 PM
Author: sunkist

Date: 5/12/2006 9:04:11 PM

Author: AGBF

I am cynical. American acceptance of the phone companies that we pay turning over private information on us makes me even more cynical. I''d like to start a class action suit against the phone companies. When criminal doesn''t work, go civil!

AGBF, uless you are a terrorist, the government couldn''t care less about your phone conversations

... Tell me this, if you had a chance to listen in on a terrorist''s phone conversation on the chance that you could save your family from their evil plots, wouldn''t you do it?!?!

Sunny,

Funny, for someone who has apparently nothing to worry about, you seem to protect your online identity. Why?

 

[rainbowtrout]

The government can spy on me all they want. That's what governments do by nature. BUT--if they get caught fair and square I want the legal system to come down HARD on their little butts. Spying on your citizens should not be "acceptable" or "fair game"--it should always be illegal and not tolerated when it comes out. What worried me is that we seem to be moving towards tolerating spying because it "stops terrorists." Well, perhaps it does--but we have to ask what the price for each stopped attack is, because it isn't a free lunch.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 5/12/2006 9:09:40 PM
Author: sunkist

Date: 5/12/2006 9:04:11 PM

Author: AGBF


I am cynical. American acceptance of the phone companies that we pay turning over private information on us makes me even more cynical. I''d like to start a class action suit against the phone companies. When criminal doesn''t work, go civil!

AGBF, uless you are a terrorist, the government couldn''t care less about your phone conversations

... Tell me this, if you had a chance to listen in on a terrorist''s phone conversation on the chance that you could save your family from their evil plots, wouldn''t you do it?!?!

I rather get blown to bits by a terrorist bomb than have the goverment listen to all my phone calls and read my email.
To me the latter is worse than the former.
Its not living unless your free.

 

[tulip928]

Date: 5/13/2006 9:02:58 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 5/12/2006 9:09:40 PM
Author: sunkist

Date: 5/12/2006 9:04:11 PM

Author: AGBF


I am cynical. American acceptance of the phone companies that we pay turning over private information on us makes me even more cynical. I''d like to start a class action suit against the phone companies. When criminal doesn''t work, go civil!

AGBF, uless you are a terrorist, the government couldn''t care less about your phone conversations

... Tell me this, if you had a chance to listen in on a terrorist''s phone conversation on the chance that you could save your family from their evil plots, wouldn''t you do it?!?!

I rather get blown to bits by a terrorist bomb than have the goverment listen to all my phone calls and read my email.
To me the latter is worse than the former.
Its not living unless your free.

The government is not *listening* to your phone calls or *reading* your emails and I believe you know that (a little bit of intellectual dishonety IMHO). This system of monitoring calls was in place long before 9/11 and it was our intelligence communities that did not "connect the dots" unfortunately.

Were you griping about ECHELON used by the Clinton administration that did monitor *words* used in your email and telephone calls? I''ll bet not!

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 5/12/2006 8:58:33 PM
Author: movie zombie
amen, brother richard, amen!

movie zombie

Now, refresh my memory why I shouldn''t think you guys are a cult?

 

[tulip928]

Date: 5/12/2006 9:04:11 PM
Author: AGBF


The pity is that no one remembers that Bush promised to punish anyone caught leaking information about Valerie Plame! Bush will get off scot free because no one reads about, follows, or understands the entire Wilson/Plame affair.

I am cynical. American acceptance of the phone companies that we pay turning over private information on us makes me even more cynical. I''d like to start a class action suit against the phone companies. When criminal doesn''t work, go civil!

In regards to your belief that the phone companies are turning over private information on you, here''s a simple and informative read for you: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/12/AR2006051201656.html

 

[tulip928]

Date: 5/13/2006 1:32:23 AM
Author: rainbowtrout
The government can spy on me all they want. That''s what governments do by nature. BUT--if they get caught fair and square I want the legal system to come down HARD on their little butts. Spying on your citizens should not be ''acceptable'' or ''fair game''--it should always be illegal and not tolerated when it comes out. What worried me is that we seem to be moving towards tolerating spying because it ''stops terrorists.'' Well, perhaps it does--but we have to ask what the price for each stopped attack is, because it isn''t a free lunch.

"Spying"? Do a little homework and find out that the program you are so up in arms about was actually put in place in 1994 by a Democratic Senate, a Democratic House, and signed into law by President Bill Clinton. It is called the "Communication Assistance Law Enforcement Act" October 1994.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 5/13/2006 9:02:58 AM
Author: strmrdr
I rather get blown to bits by a terrorist bomb than have the goverment listen to all my phone calls and read my email.

To me the latter is worse than the former.

Its not living unless your free.

I am not sure I would sign on to be blown to bits as you would, Storm. I do not think it is an "either/or" situation and I am sure you do not think so, either.

I have no problem at all in the government seeking subpoenas to tap the wires of or intercept the other communications of someone a judge has determined there is probable cause to investigate. I have a major problem in allowing the government to spy on anyone at any time for any reason or no reason. (Make that "everyone", not "anyone".)

 

[rainbowtrout]

Date: 5/13/2006 10:45:25 AM
Author: tulip928

Date: 5/13/2006 1:32:23 AM

Author: rainbowtrout

The government can spy on me all they want. That''s what governments do by nature. BUT--if they get caught fair and square I want the legal system to come down HARD on their little butts. Spying on your citizens should not be ''acceptable'' or ''fair game''--it should always be illegal and not tolerated when it comes out. What worried me is that we seem to be moving towards tolerating spying because it ''stops terrorists.'' Well, perhaps it does--but we have to ask what the price for each stopped attack is, because it isn''t a free lunch.

''Spying''? Do a little homework and find out that the program you are so up in arms about was actually put in place in 1994 by a Democratic Senate, a Democratic House, and signed into law by President Bill Clinton. It is called the ''Communication Assistance Law Enforcement Act'' October 1994.

Honey, I didn''t say anything about whether or not I cared if Clinton or his hick cousin fron Nowhereville signed it into law. I''m not "up in arms" about anything other than the fact that I see in the news everyday that the American people appear to be more and more complacent with the IDEA that the government is spying on them, leaving aside whether or not it is true.

And yes, I think ALL governments, whatever party, spy on their citizens to some extent. I just think it should be under the table and not justified by the citizenry.

 

[tulip928]

Rainbowtrout -

Well, sweetie, I''m not justifying "spying" because this isn''t "spying". It is anonymous phone records, no identities attached, with technology picking out algorithims to connect terrorist activity. There''s no way our government could employ enough people to spy on all of us. You''re right, it should be under the table. Why alert terrorists to our means of tracking them down through their communitcation patterns?

 

[movie zombie]

Date: 5/13/2006 9:02:58 AM
Author: strmrdr



I rather get blown to bits by a terrorist bomb than have the goverment listen to all my phone calls and read my email.
To me the latter is worse than the former.
Its not living unless your free.

and another amen, brother, amen: i''m with brother Storm and don''t mind being called a member of a cult just because i think the US Constitution matters and believe in our Bill of Rights.

movie zombie

pa any cult that can include Storm and Richard is interesting indeed! one thing this is uniting the so-called left and so-called right is the spector of fascism.

 

[colormyworld]

tulip 928
How is it that you are so sure the gov''t. is not collecting personal info on us ?

 

[tulip928]

Date: 5/13/2006 1:42:37 PM
Author: colormyworld
tulip 928
How is it that you are so sure the gov''t. is not collecting personal info on us ?

The IRS does that quite well, wouldn''t you say? Other than that, what would interest them in anything I''m doing as a law abiding citizen? Do you really think the government has enough employees to track us all so microscopically? Why do you think they''re watching you?

 

[colormyworld]

With the use of computers I think they can keep track of us in great detail.

 

[rainbowtrout]

Date: 5/13/2006 11:40:58 AM
Author: tulip928
Rainbowtrout -


Well, sweetie, I'm not justifying 'spying' because this isn't 'spying'. It is anonymous phone records, no identities attached, with technology picking out algorithims to connect terrorist activity. There's no way our government could employ enough people to spy on all of us. You're right, it should be under the table. Why alert terrorists to our means of tracking them down through their communitcation patterns?

A question of semantics, then...you're at liberty to define spying however you like. And yes, the IRS does have more than enough information on all of us.

I feel the need to point out that I wasn't the one who assumed what politcal party you belonged to and then sniped at you for something you didn't say...hence the sarcasm on my part. Anyway, it's all fair in politics and war

 

[tulip928]

Date: 5/13/2006 1:58:19 PM
Author: colormyworld
With the use of computers I think they can keep track of us in great detail.

Exactly - computers are not human. The records from the phone companies are computer generated, the same records that track your phone for billing purposes. The phone company actually can know everybody you''re talking to - they have the identities of the phone number''s owners (does that bother you?). The records the government are given are anonymous phone numbers, no identities attached. The government is not wiretapping or evesdropping your calls (do you really believe they could listen to each and every call? Do you realize the manpower that would take?). When known terrorist calls interact with repeatedly with phone numbers within and outside our country, the computer red flags the numbers and further investigation takes place. I have no problem with that. I sure as heck hope they''re connecting the dots better than pre-9/11.

If they''re watching us *all* in such detail as you think and given the population of our country, I can''t even imagine how many people our government would need to employ to watch us all. What good is a computer on it''s own?

 

[movie zombie]

there is an IRS proposal to change section 7216 of the IRS code. it will authorize H&R Block or any other tax preparer to sell the contents of your private tax return to any corporation wanting to buy it....including your social security number, income, employer, medical expenses, children, charitable donations, etc. pushing this is data brokers including such as choicepoint, and credit card companies like mastercard...why: so they can market directly to you. however, you can bet that info will be used for other purposes. the pentagon thus far is legally barred from collecting such data on their own on civilians but it has been determined that legally they can receive it. and receive it they have and will. do we really need our military spying on us and collecting data on each and every one of us? all in the name of protecting us from terrorism....really?


movie zombie

 

[colormyworld]

I take it by your lack of response to my first question that you do not know what info the gov't. is gathering on you, me or any one. As far as the info being gathered by the computers they just condense it down to a level that will allow agents of the government to sift through it.
I was brought up believing in the BILL OF RIGHTS! Maybe you are ready to give your right to be free from unreasonable search but I am not and never will be. We are going down a very slippery slope and I wonder where the bottom of the slope is!!!!!

 

[tulip928]

Date: 5/13/2006 3:35:34 PM
Author: colormyworld
I take it by your lack of response to my first question that you do not know what info the gov''t. is gathering on you, me or any one. As far as the info being gathered by the computers they just condense it down to a level that will allow agents of the government to sift through it.
I was brought up believing in the BILL OF RIGHTS! Maybe you are ready to give your right to be free from unreasonable search but I am not and never will be. We are going down a very slippery slope and I wonder where the bottom of the slope is!!!!!

There is a Freedom of Information Act - I''m sure you can request to find out for yourself what info. the government has on you.

Which of your rights named in the BILL OF RIGHTS! is being violated? You are not being unreasonably searched or seized. Reviewing anonymous phone records doesn''t violate any right. Your name is not even attached to the record. Look up the Communication Assistance Law Enforcement Act. The phone company has more of your private information than the government. What gives them the right? The government would have to get a warrant to get your name if your phone number got flagged because you were communicating with a known terrorist phone number. What information specifically do you think is being condensed down from computers? That is a very vague statement. Also *government* is also a vague word - do you mean you think the FBI is gathering information on each and every one of us? Do you believe there is a certain type of American they''re out to get? Who are these "agents" that are out to get us, the law abiding citizens, and not terrorist and enemies within the United States? I can''t think of anybody I know who has been interrogated or taken into custody.

 

[tulip928]

Date: 5/13/2006 2:11:11 PM
Author: rainbowtrout

Date: 5/13/2006 11:40:58 AM
Author: tulip928
Rainbowtrout -


Well, sweetie, I''m not justifying ''spying'' because this isn''t ''spying''. It is anonymous phone records, no identities attached, with technology picking out algorithims to connect terrorist activity. There''s no way our government could employ enough people to spy on all of us. You''re right, it should be under the table. Why alert terrorists to our means of tracking them down through their communitcation patterns?

A question of semantics, then...you''re at liberty to define spying however you like. And yes, the IRS does have more than enough information on all of us.

I feel the need to point out that I wasn''t the one who assumed what politcal party you belonged to and then sniped at you for something you didn''t say...hence the sarcasm on my part. Anyway, it''s all fair in politics and war

And you are assuming that I was in any way referring to whatever political party you belong to. I wasn''t sniping at you, I was pointing out that the so called "spying" did not originate under the present administration, but with the Communication Assistance Law Enforcement Act signed into law in 1994 under the previous Democratic administration.

 

[colormyworld]

The problem is we just don't know ! But I hate being lied to. It tends to taint anything the offender says in the future.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 5/13/2006 9:58:27 AM
Author: tulip928

Date: 5/13/2006 9:02:58 AM


The government is not *listening* to your phone calls or *reading* your emails and I believe you know that (a little bit of intellectual dishonety IMHO). This system of monitoring calls was in place long before 9/11 and it was our intelligence communities that did not ''connect the dots'' unfortunately.


Were you griping about ECHELON used by the Clinton administration that did monitor *words* used in your email and telephone calls? I''ll bet not!

they arent? Do you know that, I dont?
Sure I was raising heck about echelon I used to put put the list in every newsgroup posting email and webboard post just to mess with them.
Was just as ticked about carnivore also.

 

[strmrdr]

The IRS uses bank records, credit reports and credit card reports to track taxes owed on everyone.
They cant legally do it themselves but they can hire companies to do it.
Iv thought of suing the credit reporting agencies under class action because they are fronts for government operations or acting as such.
It should take a warrant to get such info but it don''t....
Use front companies to do the dirty work.
We are well down the slope and its getting steeper and steeper.