Analysis Paralysis

[TH Morgan]

@TH Morgan how are you doing with your search? This thread got a tad derailed but hopefully in a helpful way. Have you made any progress?

Very enlightening thread! Thanks to all for the expertise. I did select a diamond and have it ordered. I’m confident she’ll say “yes” at the end of the day and that is the most important thing.

 

[Lykame]

Very enlightening thread! Thanks to all for the expertise. I did select a diamond and have it ordered. I’m confident she’ll say “yes” at the end of the day and that is the most important thing.

Oh that's exciting! I'm sure she'll be delighted!

If you're willing to share the details... and pictures of the finished ring... and hand shots... or any combination of those things... feel free! If you're not comfortable with that, that's fine too.

Congratulations again!

 

[farrahlyn]

Very enlightening thread! Thanks to all for the expertise. I did select a diamond and have it ordered. I’m confident she’ll say “yes” at the end of the day and that is the most important thing.

wonderful & CONGRATS!! Please share details, we are nosy and would love to see what you chose

 

[Rockdiamond]

Congrats TH!!!!

 

[whitewave]

Would love to know which you choose— was it one we recommended?

 

[WinkHPD]

Congrats TH!!!!

On this I agree completely with David.

Wink

 

[Rockdiamond]

I know my mum has a 60/60 stone that is well cut and she LOVES it. I don't, it's a boring stone to me. It's all personal preference.

First off- thank you to all who are participating. I can say, without hesitation that discussing ( maybe even a heated discussion) about diamonds is infinitely more pleasing than the bulk of other things people argue about these days.

Lykame- for the sake of discussion: What's the exact table/depth/ca/pa/lgf of your mom's stone?
If we're comparing to a super specific category, such as Super Ideal- it's truly unfair to lump stones into the category of 60/60 with no other specifics.
I'm not going to be able to list the exact CA/PA that Winston ( and others) used in the '70's and '80's. My training put me in jobs that required me to be able to identify well cut stones by eye ( this was way before GIA cut grade)

Point is- for years people ( Hi DF) have been trashing 60/60 as a straw man. No specs, just that it's bad.

 

[Todd Gray]

Long, long ago, not quite in the age of dinosaurs, we encountered our first "ideal cut diamond" and it blew our minds.

We were told by the supplier that it was a 60/60 cut and that cutting a diamond to that combination of total depth and table diameter produced the best light return. Understand that this was long before Sarin, Helium, or OGI computerized proportions analysis. But the difference in light return between that particular 60/60 "ideal cut diamond" and other diamonds in our inventory was clearly obvious.

And so, we began to focus on sourcing 60/60 ideal cut diamonds for our clients... but it was a frustrating experience because we soon realized that not all ideal cut diamonds are created equal. Some 60/60 ideal cut diamonds have steeper or shallower crown and pavilion angles than others.

And at the time, the GIA Laboratory did not provide crown or pavilion measurements on the diamond grading report. And even though they do so today, the fact is that the GIA averages and then rounds off some of the measurements on the report to the nearest half a degree, or half a percent, and as much as 5% for lower girdle facet length (which leaves a lot of wiggle room for the cutters).

Thankfully, we didn't ride the 60/60 ideal cut diamond train for long, because our quest to learn more about diamond cut quality, led us to a small handful of suppliers who produced what was then commonly known as Tolkowsky Ideal.

The difference between the average 60/60 ideal cut diamond and those cut to Tolkowsky proportions was clearly visible, and thus we began to focus on finding more and more ideal cut diamonds cut to Tolkowsky proportions for our clients... who could also see the difference quite clearly.

Which is not to say that it's not possible to find a 60/60 with nice light return, just that it's more difficult and that you're more likely to waste a lot of time and resources trying to find that infamous needle in the haystack... It was much easier and more cost effective for us to focus on the Tolkowsky classification.

And then along came the hearts and arrows diamonds which we commonly refer to as super ideal because they are cut to a tighter range of proportions, which represents the middle or "sweet spot" that is the target range of the original AGS zero ideal cut rating.

And my, oh my, were our clients able to see the difference between the super ideal hearts and arrows and the standard ideal cut diamonds we were holding in inventory... So much so, that we sold off the majority of our standard ideal cut inventory and re-invested it in hearts and arrows diamonds.

But not before running a ton of blind taste tests with our in-store clients to see whether they could see the difference without being coached (and they could quite easily) under both standard jewelry store lighting and with the showroom lights off.

But the difference between super ideal and standard ideal cut diamonds is most apparent when the diamonds are viewed under the diffused lighting situations that most of us live and work under in this modern age. The higher degree of optical precision that creates the hearts and arrows pattern produces a higher number of virtual facets, which produces more visible sparkle and sparkle which is more vivid and intense.

And it shows.

But if you really want to put the nail in the coffin of the average 60/60 or standard ideal cut diamond, all you have to do is compare it with a super ideal under fluorescent lighting (which lacks ultra violet) and the higher degree of contrast brilliance that distinguishes the super ideal from the non, will make it appear to be sparkling (even though it's not) while the other two are most likely to just sit there looking dull and lifeless, and that's when people really get it...

Which is why we used to put a variety of "ideal cut diamonds" on a lucite sorting tray and walk the diamonds and the clients around the store under a variety of lighting conditions, so that they could make an informed decision after seeing the differences between the various renditions of ideal cut diamond.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Just curious Todd- but where was this all taking place?
In my experience as a loose diamond salesperson, when you left NYC the entire market changed. It’s very different today than it was in the ‘80s. Winston- and then M Fabrikant, where I worked were massive- at the times I worked there, each was the largest loose diamond company in the world. It would not have been possible to see the large lots outside NYC ( or Tel Aviv or Bombay, as it was called at the time) , unless a salesman carried it to places outside NYC. But the largest buyers all came to NYC. So what you and I saw and experienced back in the day was surely different if you were not based on 47th st.
I believe a persons training and life experience affect preferences like these.
The first “Ideal Cut” Stones I am aware of were from Lazare Kaplan. At the time, Russian Cut was known as the finest. Winston cut thier finest stones in house. Fabrikant had some sort of Russian connection. The stones were not easy to come by for many reasons. It was the USSR back then.
The Russian Stones certainly had larger tables than the LK Stones.
I loved the LK Stones too- but to this day the small tables seem..... small. Of course there are properties associated with the smaller table that many people love. But we can also say the same about the slightly larger table.
You’re also lumping any sort of stone into something called ‘60-60’
At the time, as you point out, some of the more precise measurements we use today were not available. Yet it was still possible to pick out the best makes.
No need to “put the last nail in the coffin”- it was done over 10 years back.
Today’s RBCs are, in the vast majority, cut with smaller tables and deeper than 60%. And 1.00ct diamonds that spread 6.4mm are far more rare. Smart cutters and computers have used this to game the system. The type of stones I’m was raised in would have lower yield for the cutters than the average well cut stone of today. GIA Cut grade made it worse- I know we agree on that. .

Bottom line is that we’re speaking of a preference. Not for nothing - but again, I don’t prefer to sell either over the other. No horse I’m the race.
Sellers that specialize in selling super ideals may have differing perspectives.

 

[Todd Gray]

It's all a matter of preference, of course. Which is the reason why the proportions parameters relied upon by the AGS and GIA are so broad. Suffice to say "there is an ideal cut diamond for every preference" and it's up to each person to determine what look they prefer.

Obviously, I lean heavily towards the realm of super ideal because that is what I like and I've always believed that you should sell what you like and what you would buy for yourself personally...

For example, I'd never buy a car from a salesperson who drives another brand because it demonstrates to me that they don't believe in their product.

I've seen lots of 60/60 diamonds with a crown and pavilion angle within my preferred range, but I still prefer the look of a super ideal cut and thus, that's what I promote. But if somebody wants to consider something else, based on their preferences, that's obviously their prerogative.

As I recall, Peter Yantzer, the former lab director of the AGSL, had tons of data on 60/60 ideal cut diamonds that they'd scanned and the vast majority of them didn't fare well. I think this is something that @John Pollard could weigh in on, something tells me that he might have it laying around somewhere.

But at the end of the day, it's all about personal preference and people should look at the different options available and determine what look appeals to their personal taste.

 

[holeydonut]

Which is why we used to put a variety of "ideal cut diamonds" on a lucite sorting tray and walk the diamonds and the clients around the store under a variety of lighting conditions, so that they could make an informed decision after seeing the differences between the various renditions of ideal cut diamond.

Hi Todd, I kind of wish I knew where this could still happen. My own experience as a shopper was one of the most frustrating things I've ever had to encounter.

Visiting the high-end stores seem to tilt toward the setting/ring/experience... the mall (Shane, Jared, Kay, etc) diamond shopping wasn't very enjoyable at all and was a terrible mistake... and the boutique type of B&M didn't seem to have much selection.

Online shopping was throwing up too many red flags with myriad drop shippers and many puff pieces. To be honest, when I showed the fiance-to-be some of your posts about super-ideals, she literally said "Who is this Todd (Gray) guy and why is he in love with that Brian (Gavin) guy so much?? Are these guys for real?"

It was really hard to actually just get her to see a representative sample of quality gems in person. I feel like some B&Ms could really benefit from adopting some of the practices you've talked about like this example of showing quality diamonds in various lighting scenarios.

 

[SueAnne]

Have been quietly lurking on the forum for sometime and turning to your help for guidance as keep thinking I will pick the wrong diamond.

https://www.b2cjewels.com/dd/114512...m_medium=referral&utm_campaign=pricescope.com

https://www.b2cjewels.com/dd/108959...m_medium=referral&utm_campaign=pricescope.com

It is rather shocking that this original post evolved into a debate of 60/60 versus Superideal for the umpteenth time on this board led by Rockdiamond. The positions, arguments, and the players participating seem strikingly similar for the last decade or so.

Rockdiamond - Trust my eyes, pick your dealer first(like me) and let them choose, not "light performance" "reflectors" or "technology" you aren't educated enough to choose for yourself.

Wink - Superideals are the best we've done the blind taste tests.

ToddV - I prefer Superideals there are some good 60/60s but Superideal are still consistently the best.

(I am of course paraphrasing and I may have missed and/or simplified nuances in those positions for the sake of a shorter post)

It comes as no surprise that each of these trademembers is 'suggesting' what they sell or promote.

The big difference between them and a used car salesman though is that, you walk onto a used car lot and you know exactly what they are selling, here the bias or the slant of 'advice' from trade members is often not as readily apparent.

If it was this same 'discussion' which seems authentic and tailored to this customer (it really isn't) would not keep getting repeated over and over again.

 

[gm89uk]

@Rockdiamond There was a store in Birmingham Jewellery Quarter (UK) that specifically marketed shallower GIA stones with wider spread as their sales pitch. Admittedly I was not up to speed about diamond cut then, it was early on in my diamond research / buying process but I could definitely recognise the difference in cut. I am specifically not a fan of the larger table reflection. I can't say I've seen an 'ideally' cut 60:60; or maybe I did, I was too ignorant about diamond cut to care then.

 

[Rockdiamond]

I totally get what you’re saying Todd - and it’s kind of my point. We all have preferences based on our life experiences.
I think naysayers overlook the passion you bring - Wink too.
I hope I also fit into that category. Let’s face it, if someone is not passionate, they really should not be in this business. It’s all about passion.
I’m also super grateful for everyone who is glad to participate. As I said, far better that most of what’s being debated nowadays.

Having had experience with Super Ideals- I totally get it. It’s very cool to see that perfect ASET.
The look is stunning.
Plus, there’s no viable method to sell the type of 60/60 stones from the ‘70s or the Russian stones of the ‘80’s.
So there’s a very good reason to stick with Super Ideal if you really want the best out there today.
Unfortunately most sellers and cutters today lack passion entirely. Sad. A lot of cookie cutter mediocrity.

 

[TH Morgan]

I went with this diamond that one of you suggested: https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4013669.htm

Setting in a basic white gold pave ring that she wants.

If every thing goes smoothly, she likes the ring, and says “yes” then I’ll try to circle back and post updated pictures of the finished product on her finger.

I am a complete diamond neophyte. I don’t understand all the technicalities of this thread (my ignorance shines like a super ideal—can I say that?). But it’s great to find such a spirited and enegaged audience that’s willing to volunteer their times and energies to help. Kudos to all of you and a very hearty thank you.

 

[whitewave]

I went with this diamond that one of you suggested: https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4013669.htm

Setting in a basic white gold pave ring that she wants.

If every thing goes smoothly, she likes the ring, and says “yes” then I’ll try to circle back and post updated pictures of the finished product on her finger.

I am a complete diamond neophyte. I don’t understand all the technicalities of this thread (my ignorance shines like a super ideal—can I say that?). But it’s great to find such a spirited and enegaged audience that’s willing to volunteer their times and energies to help. Kudos to all of you and a very hearty thank you.

Excellent choice! It will be a beautiful ring.

 

[ringo865]

Ooh beauty! And HUGE!!

Ask Whiteflash to send you some glamor shots before they ship it. They will totally do it (and then you can share them here)

And if you have pave, make sure you get her ring size right (and propose within the return period). Pave makes them tricky to resize.

 

[Lykame]

I went with this diamond that one of you suggested: https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4013669.htm

Setting in a basic white gold pave ring that she wants.

If every thing goes smoothly, she likes the ring, and says “yes” then I’ll try to circle back and post updated pictures of the finished product on her finger.

I am a complete diamond neophyte. I don’t understand all the technicalities of this thread (my ignorance shines like a super ideal—can I say that?). But it’s great to find such a spirited and enegaged audience that’s willing to volunteer their times and energies to help. Kudos to all of you and a very hearty thank you.

Excellent choice if I do say so myself!

Thrilled for you! I second the glamour shot request! They're great fun and if you fancy sharing that here then it will always be well received!

You're very welcome, all of us, professionals and non-professionals alike hope that everyone goes away happy.

 

[Todd Gray]

Hi Todd, I kind of wish I knew where this could still happen. My own experience as a shopper was one of the most frustrating things I've ever had to encounter.

Visiting the high-end stores seem to tilt toward the setting/ring/experience... the mall (Shane, Jared, Kay, etc) diamond shopping wasn't very enjoyable at all and was a terrible mistake... and the boutique type of B&M didn't seem to have much selection.

Online shopping was throwing up too many red flags with myriad drop shippers and many puff pieces. To be honest, when I showed the fiance-to-be some of your posts about super-ideals, she literally said "Who is this Todd (Gray) guy and why is he in love with that Brian (Gavin) guy so much?? Are these guys for real?"

It was really hard to actually just get her to see a representative sample of quality gems in person. I feel like some B&Ms could really benefit from adopting some of the practices you've talked about like this example of showing quality diamonds in various lighting scenarios.

Admittedly, I believe that our approach to how we sold diamonds is probably not very common. I had a mother come into the store to thank me one day for talking her son out of buying a designer setting which cost almost $10K (which was more than the diamond center stone) when I said "Are you insane? You could put that money down on a house" and the mother had to meet the jeweler who said that...

But I always try to approach things from the perspective of whether or not it makes sense and I try to steer people towards diamonds that I would buy myself. At the same time, I would have sold the mounting to the kid and/or I'll help people find whatever it is that they're looking for if they choose not to heed my advice because I'm just the tour guide.

At the end of the day, it's their money and their ring.

Yes, I do tend to lean heavily into certain camps because I know exactly what to expect from their brand and I know the people behind the scenes.

 

[Todd Gray]

It is rather shocking that this original post evolved into a debate of 60/60 versus Superideal for the umpteenth time on this board led by Rockdiamond. The positions, arguments, and the players participating seem strikingly similar for the last decade or so.

Rockdiamond - Trust my eyes, pick your dealer first(like me) and let them choose, not "light performance" "reflectors" or "technology" you aren't educated enough to choose for yourself.

Wink - Superideals are the best we've done the blind taste tests.

ToddV - I prefer Superideals there are some good 60/60s but Superideal are still consistently the best.

(I am of course paraphrasing and I may have missed and/or simplified nuances in those positions for the sake of a shorter post)

It comes as no surprise that each of these trademembers is 'suggesting' what they sell or promote.

The big difference between them and a used car salesman though is that, you walk onto a used car lot and you know exactly what they are selling, here the bias or the slant of 'advice' from trade members is often not as readily apparent.

If it was this same 'discussion' which seems authentic and tailored to this customer (it really isn't) would not keep getting repeated over and over again.

Have been quietly lurking on the forum for sometime and turning to your help for guidance as keep thinking I will pick the wrong diamond.

Briefly, looking to but an engagement ring. 2ct, round, petite pave setting. I am hoping to spend no more than 25K and closer to 20K the better. I understand that cut seems to have primacy and had seen these two as options. I welcome your thoughts and suggestions on any other recommendations

https://www.b2cjewels.com/dd/114512...m_medium=referral&utm_campaign=pricescope.com

https://www.b2cjewels.com/dd/108959...m_medium=referral&utm_campaign=pricescope.com

Fair enough, good summary.

I found some images for the original diamonds being considered by the OP, but can't comment on them...

Perhaps somebody would like to comment on what they see here:




Certain proprietary data has been redacted.

 

[gm89uk]

Although stone two looks nice, the great variation in diameter and the bewildering 63.6% depth is a real put off.

The GIA report states it's a 4% depth but @Todd Gray, the parameters state 3.6%
GIA rounds to the nearest 0.5%.


Looking at total depth (63.6%) even looking at worst case scenarios for GIA rounding:

63.6% (Total Depth) - 15.74% (maximum crown) - 4.24% (maximum rounded girdle) leaves a 43.62% pavilion depth. With a perfectly pointed culet, 50xtan(40.69(maximum theoretical angle)) = maximum theoretical 42.99% pavilion depth.

Anyway a diamond that does not obey maths means it's a hiding a lot of weight somewhere, particularly as it's on the dot 2 carats, through asymmetry clever weight retaining cutting, I'd rather purchase a diamond that makes sense.

@flyingpig I'm unsure how star facets would play into this mismatched depth
@Katya DXB You are probably right that the 0.12mm variation is probably not equal all the way, and as such it doesn't quite add up.

Bottom line: It's fair to say the choice of the OP far exceeds both. Congratulations

 

[SueAnne]

I went with this diamond that one of you suggested: https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4013669.htm

Setting in a basic white gold pave ring that she wants.

If every thing goes smoothly, she likes the ring, and says “yes” then I’ll try to circle back and post updated pictures of the finished product on her finger.

I am a complete diamond neophyte. I don’t understand all the technicalities of this thread (my ignorance shines like a super ideal—can I say that?). But it’s great to find such a spirited and enegaged audience that’s willing to volunteer their times and energies to help. Kudos to all of you and a very hearty thank you.

I am usually put off when reading about the same handful of PS vendors being recommended in every thread, but in this case I don't feel you could have done better. Getting a "near ideal" you might have been able to get 1 color grade higher or saved 1-2k or so, but you got 8.16mm diameter, H which in a round should be plenty colorless, and top cut which is pretty damn good for under 25k congrats.

 

[SueAnne]

Fair enough, good summary.

I found some images for the original diamonds being considered by the OP, but can't comment on them...

Perhaps somebody would like to comment on what they see here:




Certain proprietary data has been redacted.

Looks like ~2% digging (or gouging) in the pavilion possibly the way they were able to retain enough weight to remain at 2ct. This combined with some asymmetry (see Hearts and ASET) has contributed to weaker performance under the table (white and green areas in the ASET at edge of the table).

In simple terms, the compromise to remain at 2CT appears to be some loss of life under the table, savvy buyers should avoid this diamond.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Point is- for years people ( Hi DF) have been trashing 60/60 as a straw man. No specs, just that it's bad.

Nothing wrong with a nicely cut 60/60. Mine was one of those flat top no crown height 60/60 stone. I'm one of those people who prefer a stone with high crown. ..i.e. Octavia

 

[holeydonut]

Admittedly, I believe that our approach to how we sold diamonds is probably not very common. I had a mother come into the store to thank me one day for talking her son out of buying a designer setting which cost almost $10K (which was more than the diamond center stone) when I said "Are you insane? You could put that money down on a house" and the mother had to meet the jeweler who said that...

But I always try to approach things from the perspective of whether or not it makes sense and I try to steer people towards diamonds that I would buy myself. At the same time, I would have sold the mounting to the kid and/or I'll help people find whatever it is that they're looking for if they choose not to heed my advice because I'm just the tour guide.

At the end of the day, it's their money and their ring.

Yes, I do tend to lean heavily into certain camps because I know exactly what to expect from their brand and I know the people behind the scenes.

Whoops, sorry I didn't mean to say that I question your trustworthiness level; your posts and others online helped steer me toward Brian Gavin to begin with. I'm just pointing out that a novice starting a fresh diamond/ring search knows nothing about the history or reputation of online vendors or the online bloggers.

Once a customer is hooked, I feel like the online vendors keep the hype-machine going full-tilt during the sales process. And, since there's never a physical meeting between parties, expectations could continue to widen between the customer's imagination and the jeweler's reality. The experts in the field may have a wealth of knowledge to keep their expectations well-grounded in reality, but such information is not being inferred by the obviously less sophisticated customer.

For me, things cumulated with Brian Gavin himself telling me that my expectations may be a bit too high. But all the content like the ones on niceice and PS were what put my expectations up there to begin with haha. Luckily Brian was probably just sandbagging, because he delivered above and beyond what we were expecting. This was to get her a one of a kind ring and it’s definitely stunning.

Anyway, I would have appreciated if there was a B&M that could have walked us through things in a thoughtful manner to keep expectations in check. Customers come into a situation with some preconceived notions (whether they are right or wrong)... so it's easy for people on the other side of a computer monitor or phone to judge those preconceptions very harshly.

For example...

You and the experts on this site may know what a VS2 clarity looks like since you've seen tens of thousands of diamonds. But my future fiance has seen maybe 8 GIA rated VS stones, and some from the lower-tier B&M were pretty bad/dirty with scuff on them that I could see with my rather poor eyesight. To make things worse, the VS in the high-end showrooms looked great.

So people on PS rip her for being "stuck up" for wanting a VVS unless it's from Tiffany or a high end jeweler. And they rip me for being a befuddled dumbass who is clueless since I lack the experience of the 30 year diamond trading vets. To this day, I still haven't seen real examples in person outside of Tiffany that reinforces the eye-clean VS concept everyone here seems to know from their lengthy history in the trade. But, I can tell you my sample size of one VVS in a Brian Gavin setting looks very clean

I know if a B&M had been able to provide a nice looking set of VS stones to inspect, she and I would be more than happy to modify expectations. The OP of this thread is probably similar... something has ingrained the concept of VVS as eye clean, and it would be much easier to describe VS1 as eye-clean if good examples could be produced for in-person viewing.

Cut is even harder to demonstrate through the Internet... but after seeing one of the Black by Brian Gavin in person next to other GIA XXX round brilliant cuts... it's a no-brainer which is better. But getting to this point required a scary leap of faith that was hard to rationalize due to the cost involved.

It’s difficult to intelligently sway preconceptions, and I think a quality B&M experience would have been very helpful since many times seeing is believing. Instead, the B&M jewelry experience was rather frustrating... far worse than my experienced automobile-buying endeavors. I guess the irony is that if a B&M did walk us through things, I probably wouldn't have been able to give them business since the Brian Gavin's of the world provide the digital-promise of some amazing diamonds and settings.

As one of your online readers, I found the online buying process to be very harrowing since the customer has to take the word of many people through the entire process, and people do get hit with Analysis Paralysis; since online reviews all sound a little too good to be true

Without any prior experience, we were basically crossing their fingers to get an amazing result that could live up to all the hype. I think future fiance and I have much more confidence in online jewelry ordering now. But, we wouldn't want to go through an engagement ring process ever again haha.

 

[TH Morgan]

As way of follow up, she said yes and thought the ring was “perfect”. I agree. Thanks to all for your help

 

[elizabethess]

As way of follow up, she said yes and thought the ring was “perfect”. I agree. Thanks to all for your help

Thanks for coming back with an update, and congratulations!

 

[Krisking]

Beautiful! Congratulations!

 

[rcjtraveler]

Congratulations! Such a gorgeous ring.

 

[Todd Gray]

As way of follow up, she said yes and thought the ring was “perfect”. I agree. Thanks to all for your help

Congratulations! The ring looks beautiful.